GA Fleet Imbalance

Replies

  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    This is GA - not fleet arena. Wether your fleet holds on defense or not depends just as much on your opponent's ships as it depends on yours.

    The OP discusses strong ships in GA - not in general. He discusses having strong ships / weak characters against opponents with strong characters instead.

    It really shouldn't be necessary to remind you of this.

    No, the OP discusses imbalance in ship scores with respect to matchmaking.

    Yes, that's what I'm referring to. He calls having very strong fleet a disadvantage - which it couldn't possibly be if the opponent is in the same situation - hence my wording.

    And still: Having very strong fleets can be turned to your advantage. They can decide the battle. They are in no way meaningless as the OP claims.
    You’re the one that turned into a discussion of lack of strategy ...

    That's a lie. I never claimed anybody here lack strategy. It's not the first time you state this lie. Now stop it.

    Yes, I suggested a strategy to turn a strong fleet into your advantage, and some requirements for it to work - but that's a different thing.
    which eventually led to my last comment. You did this just like you’ve done on two of my previous discussions on this topic which is why I keep commenting that you’re trolling these discussions.

    Oh! So you hold some kind of personal grudge against me. I wondered why you kept going with all your nonsense. Now it all makes sense. Well, this game of yours has gone too far now. I'll leave you to your own babbling.
  • Getting back to the OP's point, I fully agree and have argued this several times. Numerically, the imbalance is obvious.

    - Ship GP is 2.5-3x character GP, using Tie Advanced as an example (23k-ish toon, 60k-ish ship).
    - But ships in GA are worth less than 25% of the banners that ground troops are worth, so that GP isn't pulling its weight.

    And beyond all that, clearing all ground territories is worth more points than clearing two ground plus one fleet because there's only one battle there to earn banners from. Fleet investors really are at a disadvantage.
  • ArthurDent wrote: »
    Getting back to the OP's point, I fully agree and have argued this several times. Numerically, the imbalance is obvious.

    - Ship GP is 2.5-3x character GP, using Tie Advanced as an example (23k-ish toon, 60k-ish ship).
    - But ships in GA are worth less than 25% of the banners that ground troops are worth, so that GP isn't pulling its weight.

    And beyond all that, clearing all ground territories is worth more points than clearing two ground plus one fleet because there's only one battle there to earn banners from. Fleet investors really are at a disadvantage.

    Thank you! My point exactly which got lost in the other stuff. I believe I even made a similar argument early in this thread.
  • Waqui wrote: »

    Oh! So you hold some kind of personal grudge against me. I wondered why you kept going with all your nonsense. Now it all makes sense. Well, this game of yours has gone too far now. I'll leave you to your own babbling.

    Nope not a grudge. I’m just good at picking up on patterns. When you first commented on my thread I thought I should try changing my strategy. When I saw You made the argument multiple times in multiple different threads, I noticed that it was a pattern and not just a problem with my strategy. This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.
  • I should have read more of the early comments, apparently you (Scuttlebutt) did already make the exact same point lol. There are a lot of words on page 1.
  • ArthurDent wrote: »
    I should have read more of the early comments, apparently you (Scuttlebutt) did already make the exact same point lol. There are a lot of words on page 1.

    Lol great minds think alike. I’ve made a suggestion to help balance it on several threads, but maybe this isn’t the right way to suggest a fix to the problem.

    The format of your post is better and easier to read.

  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

    OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:
    Stokerini wrote: »
    If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

    [...]

    Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

    And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.


  • Alright folks, stick to the topic of the thread please and leave out the bickering, if you have a different opinion to someone thats fine but don't derail the thread with personal arguments.
  • Stokerini
    9 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Waqui wrote: »
    This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

    OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:
    Stokerini wrote: »
    If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

    [...]

    Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

    And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.


    A strong fleet will only help you if you can both win on offense and hold on defense, while clearing all other zones. If you are blocked from the fleet zone then you fail.

    Also because fleet GP is much larger than squad GP by the ratios already mentioned earlier, this block option is easier to achieve
    As you may have 4 additional g12 zetaed squads based on my earlier post with someone having a 400k squad GP advantage.

    It seems counterintuitive for someone who focuses on fleets to have a better chance winning a squads only GA than a squads/fleets GA.

    I recommend that EA/CG update GA to never block fleet zones by squads, and increase points from those zone wins to match the GP ratio difference between ships and squads
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Stokerini wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

    OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:
    Stokerini wrote: »
    If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

    [...]

    Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

    And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.


    A strong fleet will only help you if you can both win on offense and hold on defense, while clearing all other zones. If you are blocked from the fleet zone then you fail.

    If your opponent is able to completely block you from reaching his fleet zone, then it he must have a team for which you have no counter. In that case it's not your strong fleet that causes your loss.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    Also because fleet GP is much larger than squad GP by the ratios already mentioned earlier, this block option is easier to achieve
    As you may have 4 additional g12 zetaed squads based on my earlier post with someone having a 400k squad GP advantage.

    In my alt's current battle (battling for first) the difference is 200k GP (opponent has 200k more character GP and 200K less fleet GP). He also has an advantage on g12 characters (23 vs. 14) and appears to be well focused, leaving most of his unused characters at lvl 1. However, even though he ranks 20 on his fleet shard, I noticed, that my fleet is significantly stronger. I could place a defensive fleet, which I guessed, he could not defeat. I applied my strategy (5 weak defensive character teams, and a strong fleet). I saved all my strong teams for offense and cleared the board. He didn't even attack my defensive fleet. He has nothing that can beat it. I can send you screenshots after the round ends, if you like.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    It seems counterintuitive for someone who focuses on fleets to have a better chance winning a squads only GA than a squads/fleets GA.

    It's a duel. It depends on your opponent as well as on you. Today, my strong fleet (and my strategy) wins me the battle.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    I recommend that EA/CG update GA to never block fleet zones by squads, and increase points from those zone wins to match the GP ratio difference between ships and squads

    Sounds fine to me. However, until this happens (if it happens) I will use my fleet to my advantage whenever I can.

  • Waqui wrote: »
    Stokerini wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

    OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:
    Stokerini wrote: »
    If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

    [...]

    Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

    And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.


    A strong fleet will only help you if you can both win on offense and hold on defense, while clearing all other zones. If you are blocked from the fleet zone then you fail.

    If your opponent is able to completely block you from reaching his fleet zone, then it he must have a team for which you have no counter. In that case it's not your strong fleet that causes your loss.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    Also because fleet GP is much larger than squad GP by the ratios already mentioned earlier, this block option is easier to achieve
    As you may have 4 additional g12 zetaed squads based on my earlier post with someone having a 400k squad GP advantage.

    In my alt's current battle (battling for first) the difference is 200k GP (opponent has 200k more character GP and 200K less fleet GP). He also has an advantage on g12 characters (23 vs. 14) and appears to be well focused, leaving most of his unused characters at lvl 1. However, even though he ranks 20 on his fleet shard, I noticed, that my fleet is significantly stronger. I could place a defensive fleet, which I guessed, he could not defeat. I applied my strategy (5 weak defensive character teams, and a strong fleet). I saved all my strong teams for offense and cleared the board. He didn't even attack my defensive fleet. He has nothing that can beat it. I can send you screenshots after the round ends, if you like.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    It seems counterintuitive for someone who focuses on fleets to have a better chance winning a squads only GA than a squads/fleets GA.

    It's a duel. It depends on your opponent as well as on you. Today, my strong fleet (and my strategy) wins me the battle.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    I recommend that EA/CG update GA to never block fleet zones by squads, and increase points from those zone wins to match the GP ratio difference between ships and squads

    Sounds fine to me. However, until this happens (if it happens) I will use my fleet to my advantage whenever I can.

    Finding a strategy that works in certain situations does not mean that the disadvantage doesn’t exist. I think enough people have presented the mathematical problems with the current system in relation to GP and matchmaking.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Finding a strategy that works in certain situations does not mean that the disadvantage doesn’t exist.

    However, it proves that having a strong fleet isn't necessarily a disadvantage, like OP claimed, and it also proves, that you can win when having a strong fleet, contrary to OP's claims. I'd prefer a strong fleet to a weak one any day.

    Furthermore, I'm happy for you, that you've realised, that my suggested strategy only works on some cases (when believe your defensive fleet can survive, while you defeat the enemy's defensive fleet). That's progress. Congratulations.

  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Stokerini wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

    OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:
    Stokerini wrote: »
    If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

    [...]

    Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

    And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.


    A strong fleet will only help you if you can both win on offense and hold on defense, while clearing all other zones. If you are blocked from the fleet zone then you fail.

    If you are blockef from the fleet zone it means that your opponent could just as well have chosen to block you from the character zone in the back. You would be at a huge disadvantage in both scenarios. And in both scenarios, the reason for that disadvantage is not your strong fleet - it because you don't have a counter to whatever blocks you.

  • Waqui wrote: »
    Finding a strategy that works in certain situations does not mean that the disadvantage doesn’t exist.

    However, it proves that having a strong fleet isn't necessarily a disadvantage, like OP claimed, and it also proves, that you can win when having a strong fleet, contrary to OP's claims. I'd prefer a strong fleet to a weak one any day.

    Furthermore, I'm happy for you, that you've realised, that my suggested strategy only works on some cases (when believe your defensive fleet can survive, while you defeat the enemy's defensive fleet). That's progress. Congratulations.

    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.
  • GA is a combination of strategy and squad/fleet strength. Either can be ignored to your detriment. I did not intend this posting to be about strategy. There are other places in the forums dedicated to that.


    This was meant to talk about advantages/disadvantages in GA. I think my point has been made pretty clearly that a high relative ratio of fleet power to squad power (both with a singular fleet and in aggregate) can be a disadvantage. This is an imbalance. Skill/strategy can overcome imbalances, but it doesn’t negate the fact the imbalance exists.

  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Stokerini wrote: »
    GA is a combination of strategy and squad/fleet strength. Either can be ignored to your detriment. I did not intend this posting to be about strategy. There are other places in the forums dedicated to that.


    This was meant to talk about advantages/disadvantages in GA. I think my point has been made pretty clearly that a high relative ratio of fleet power to squad power (both with a singular fleet and in aggregate) can be a disadvantage. This is an imbalance. Skill/strategy can overcome imbalances, but it doesn’t negate the fact the imbalance exists.

    As previously stated, you made several points in your original post including:
    Stokerini wrote: »
    If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

    [...]

    Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

    This is from your own original post. I don't agree with this. Having a very strong fleet is an advantage. Players with very strong fleets can win as well in GA. Without my strong fleet I would only have won 2/3 in the recent GA. My strong fleet won me the 3rd victory as well. Without it I would probably have lost.

    (Yes, having a lot of fluff GP ships in your fleet is a disadvantage, but that's beside your point, I believe)

    Ok, carry on discussing your other points.

    Edited. Added:

    I notice that you changed your wording. In your original post the wording was a very strong fleet will automaticaly put you at a disadvantage (I disagree), whereas your new wording is, that it can be a disadvantage (a lot of things can be a disadvantage, so I can't really argue with this).

    Post edited by Waqui on
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    We're discussing GA - not squad arena. Your CLS team just needs to win once in GA. How your CLS team would have held on defense is relevant in squad arena (and you may be at a disadvantage in squad arena) but it's completely irrelevant in GA. Since your CLS can win in GA offense, I don't see the disadvantage here.

  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png
  • Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    Post edited by Waqui on
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    If he said it then quote it. Otherwise, it’s kind of hard to argue your point. And even if he did say it then change the phrase, I take that as he doesn’t still agree with the statement...so why are you still arguing against something the OP changed???

    And if you’re going to nitpick the definitions of advantage and disadvantage in example of CLS then why haven’t you responded to any of the comments about the mathematical disadvantage from matchmaking vs points gained from ships? Is it because there is an inherent disadvantage in the matchmaking system for those that have high fleet GP?


  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    If he said it then quote it. Otherwise, it’s kind of hard to argue your point.

    Don't start that silly game of yours again. I have already qouted it in a previous comment to you. Reread it. It's quite simple, really. Furthermore, you can read it for your self in the original post, like I just wrote.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    If he said it then quote it. Otherwise, it’s kind of hard to argue your point.

    Don't start that silly game of yours again. I have already qouted it in a previous comment to you. Reread it. It's quite simple, really. Furthermore, you can read it for your self in the original post, like I just wrote.

    This isn’t a “silly game.” I didn’t see it in any of the previous posts, quotes, etc.

    And way to avoid all of the questions I asked! Trying to redirect the thread again by selectively quoting?
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    If he said it then quote it. Otherwise, it’s kind of hard to argue your point.

    Don't start that silly game of yours again. I have already qouted it in a previous comment to you. Reread it. It's quite simple, really. Furthermore, you can read it for your self in the original post, like I just wrote.

    This isn’t a “silly game.” I didn’t see it in any of the previous posts, quotes, etc.


    Then please reread either your own posts, my responses or the original post - whatever you prefer.
    And way to avoid all of the questions I asked! Trying to redirect the thread again by selectively quoting?

    I have no interest in discussing, what you asked about. My only points have already been very clear:
    Very strong fleets can be an advantage and can win GAs for you.

  • Stokerini
    9 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    If he said it then quote it. Otherwise, it’s kind of hard to argue your point.

    Don't start that silly game of yours again. I have already qouted it in a previous comment to you. Reread it. It's quite simple, really. Furthermore, you can read it for your self in the original post, like I just wrote.

    This isn’t a “silly game.” I didn’t see it in any of the previous posts, quotes, etc.


    Then please reread either your own posts, my responses or the original post - whatever you prefer.
    And way to avoid all of the questions I asked! Trying to redirect the thread again by selectively quoting?

    I have no interest in discussing, what you asked about. My only points have already been very clear:
    Very strong fleets can be an advantage and can win GAs for you.

    Your point, while valid does not contradict the other points I have made. These aren’t mutually exclusive points.

    A strong fleet can be an advantage and a high ship to squad ratio can be a disadvantage. Both can be true.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    The OP does not claim that players with strong fleets will never win, either in his original post or in any subsequent reply.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    The OP does not claim that players with strong fleets will never win, either in his original post or in any subsequent reply.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    I understand that a fleet only GA would be difficult due to the limited number of fleet options, but couldn’t we have a fleet top or bottom solo zone that is with double points to bring them total GA result more fair? Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    Stokerini wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    If he said it then quote it. Otherwise, it’s kind of hard to argue your point.

    Don't start that silly game of yours again. I have already qouted it in a previous comment to you. Reread it. It's quite simple, really. Furthermore, you can read it for your self in the original post, like I just wrote.

    This isn’t a “silly game.” I didn’t see it in any of the previous posts, quotes, etc.


    Then please reread either your own posts, my responses or the original post - whatever you prefer.
    And way to avoid all of the questions I asked! Trying to redirect the thread again by selectively quoting?

    I have no interest in discussing, what you asked about. My only points have already been very clear:
    Very strong fleets can be an advantage and can win GAs for you.

    Your point, while valid does not contradict the other points I have made. These aren’t mutually exclusive points.

    I never discussed your other points. However, I disagree with your original claims that very strong fleets are automaticaly a disadvantage, and that players, who focused on fleets will never win a GA.
    A strong fleet can be an advantage and a high ship to squad ratio can be a disadvantage. Both can be true.

    You finally agreee. How wonderfull :-)

    (I don't agree with some of your arguments, and have already commented on this, but that's a different thing)

  • Waqui wrote: »
    Stokerini wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    If he said it then quote it. Otherwise, it’s kind of hard to argue your point.

    Don't start that silly game of yours again. I have already qouted it in a previous comment to you. Reread it. It's quite simple, really. Furthermore, you can read it for your self in the original post, like I just wrote.

    This isn’t a “silly game.” I didn’t see it in any of the previous posts, quotes, etc.


    Then please reread either your own posts, my responses or the original post - whatever you prefer.
    And way to avoid all of the questions I asked! Trying to redirect the thread again by selectively quoting?

    I have no interest in discussing, what you asked about. My only points have already been very clear:
    Very strong fleets can be an advantage and can win GAs for you.

    Your point, while valid does not contradict the other points I have made. These aren’t mutually exclusive points.

    I never discussed your other points. However, I disagree with your original claims that very strong fleets are automaticaly a disadvantage, and that players, who focused on fleets will never win a GA.
    A strong fleet can be an advantage and a high ship to squad ratio can be a disadvantage. Both can be true.

    You finally agreee. How wonderfull :-)

    (I don't agree with some of your arguments, and have already commented on this, but that's a different thing)
    Waqui wrote: »
    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    The OP does not claim that players with strong fleets will never win, either in his original post or in any subsequent reply.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    I understand that a fleet only GA would be difficult due to the limited number of fleet options, but couldn’t we have a fleet top or bottom solo zone that is with double points to bring them total GA result more fair? Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.


    To be fair this seems like a rebuttal to your prior comments focusing only on strategy and ignoring the imbalance. I should have said that when going against an opponent who has a strong strategy, well made up squads, and the match-up has a fleet imbalance, you will almost never win.

    It is comical that you are now saying you agreed with me all along (by saying the inverse that I now agree with you) and were just making a point on strategy also being a factor. Please keep your trolling to less blatant attempts.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    edited February 2019

    Stokerini wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Stokerini wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    On my CLS example, did I really need to explicitly state that it was an example of winning despite a disadvantage (we can find many examples of that both in and out of GA). Come on, at least be reasonable if you’re going to continue this.

    If your CLS team beats Revan teams all the time, how are you then at a disadvantage? To me it seems your CLS team has the advantage (on offense at least). Maybe you should reconsider how you define advantage/disadvantage.

    In my case it's not winning despite a disadvantage in having a strong fleet - it's winning because I had the advantage of a strong fleet. That's my whole point. My 200k extra ships GP was an advantage - not a disadvantage as claimed.

    If he said it then quote it. Otherwise, it’s kind of hard to argue your point.

    Don't start that silly game of yours again. I have already qouted it in a previous comment to you. Reread it. It's quite simple, really. Furthermore, you can read it for your self in the original post, like I just wrote.

    This isn’t a “silly game.” I didn’t see it in any of the previous posts, quotes, etc.


    Then please reread either your own posts, my responses or the original post - whatever you prefer.
    And way to avoid all of the questions I asked! Trying to redirect the thread again by selectively quoting?

    I have no interest in discussing, what you asked about. My only points have already been very clear:
    Very strong fleets can be an advantage and can win GAs for you.

    Your point, while valid does not contradict the other points I have made. These aren’t mutually exclusive points.

    I never discussed your other points. However, I disagree with your original claims that very strong fleets are automaticaly a disadvantage, and that players, who focused on fleets will never win a GA.
    A strong fleet can be an advantage and a high ship to squad ratio can be a disadvantage. Both can be true.

    You finally agreee. How wonderfull :-)

    (I don't agree with some of your arguments, and have already commented on this, but that's a different thing)
    Waqui wrote: »
    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    You basically just restated what I said and reversed the meaning. I don’t see the point of your comment unless you just don’t understand what a disadvantage is. A disadvantage here means that the matchmaking does not yield even matchups. I know the OP used the term “a strong fleet,” but he didn’t mean a singular fleet. He meant total fleet power.

    To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

    However you twist and turn it, having a relatively strong fleet with significantly higher GP than my opponent's fleet was an advantage for me in my most recent GA battle. Without it, I would most likely have lost. However, I won because of my fleet (and my choice of strategy). OP's claim that without changes, players with strong fleets will never win was (and still is) wrong.

    (My opponent had also won his two first rounds.)

    063m9n877laa.png

    I don’t remember the OP ever claiming that “players with strong fleets will never win.” In fact, I remember the OP stating that he typically wins some despite being at a disadvantage.

    Wether you remember it or not doesn't change the fact, that the OP made that claim. Check the original post or check a previous response to you, where I quoted the relevant lines from the original post.
    The OP does not claim that players with strong fleets will never win, either in his original post or in any subsequent reply.
    Stokerini wrote: »
    I understand that a fleet only GA would be difficult due to the limited number of fleet options, but couldn’t we have a fleet top or bottom solo zone that is with double points to bring them total GA result more fair? Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.


    To be fair this seems like a rebuttal to your prior comments focusing only on strategy and ignoring the imbalance.

    I suggested a strategy to help you out, yes, and people began discussing it. I also stated that I don't see strong ships as a disadvantage, which lead to further discussions.
    I should have said that when going against an opponent who has a strong strategy, well made up squads, and the match-up has a fleet imbalance, you will almost never win.

    I disagree. Strong fleets always worked out to be an advantage for me. As I previously stated: If your opponent blocks your way to the fleet zone, you don't loose because of your strong fleet - you loose because you don't have a counter to whatever team blocks your way (maybe you don't have a counter at all - maybe you used it elsewhere).

    (Yes, fluff GP ships are a disadvantage, but that's beside your point - and mine)

    It is comical that you are now saying you agreed with me all along

    I never did claim this. Don't lie. You are the one who changed your position from this (which I never agreed with):
    Stokerini wrote: »
    If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

    To this:
    A strong fleet can be an advantage and a high ship to squad ratio can be a disadvantage. Both can be true.

    Hence agreeing with me that your first claim was false.

    Please stick to the truth and keep your trolling to less blatant attempts.









This discussion has been closed.