Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • Kyno
    21315 posts Moderator
    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Does the rework beat Revan?

    That is all I'm interested in and I couldn't care less about Finn in raids (HAAT, srsly???).

    Yes, I do have Revan and I think Revan mirror matches are probably the worst since I started playing this game, long ago.

    So, the question is, does the new Finn beat Revan?

    no. they are too fast and will resist TMR.

    even against FO, it looks questionable due to the speed they have.

    Right, though, here's what CG said:

    "These changes do not drastically alter the performance of the Finn-led Resistance squad in PvP, but his changes do offer the team some additional utility and a slight improvement in their PvP presence. With ramping damage now present on Finn’s basic ability and his 2nd special ability, the longer he can stay alive and the more turns he can take, the more potent he becomes. Determination goes a long way in making this a reality, as it provides not only an additional means of spreading damage around the team by providing Finn with the ability to Taunt, but also grants him Retribution which can give him a few free hits to ramp up damage on his basic ability. While these changes haven’t brought the Resistance squad into the current competitive meta, they can more handily dispose of teams such as Kylo Ren (Unmasked)-led First Order and General Kenobi-led Jedi."

    My sole interest in ZFinn is pvp, giving me a somewhat reliable and fast way of beating Revan.

    It seems that does drastically change his pvp performance. And it's not just against "one team".

    There is more to PvP than arena. There are more teams used in PvP content than Revan.

    so changing the interaction with a single (or 2 teams) is not a drastic change to their PvP performance.

    I dont see him getting enough hits to make the bonus damage mean anything. I also dont see the TM gain against revan being enough to counter all the speed and TM gain on a revan team.

    I could be wrong about FO, but to get it going before you only needed Poe to be faster, now you will probably need more speed in general. so while it may be doable, its likely going to need changes to the whole team to be able to "handily dispose" of teams you could take down before.

    IMHO

    If Revan wasnt meta , you'd have a valid point , but changing the way a team interacts with the Meta , absolutely affects their pvp usage, im sorry.

    I was replying to why they may be saying that this wont drastically change pvp. Not that it will not drastically change the current arena situation, because it's hard to see how it wont.

    Finn is used in arena at many levels and not every shard is run by raven.

    Not every shard is run by revan? Are you blind? Everything is run by revan and sadly everything is destroyed because of revan.

    You do realize there are young shards, and on top of that players in the outer levels of arena using old metas still. I'm just trying to point out that not everything is about the top end of established shards.

    Not trying to minimize the effect on revan PvP, just that there is more PvP content than just against Revan. Which is why they may not consider this a "drastic change to PvP".

    You do realize that people at 1mil gp have revan right? It became the end all be all starter character because its so easy and effective to farm.

    You do realize there are people below 1M GP, and also people that dont follow farming guides, right?

    Seriously your argument is so weak...it goes to show the amount of stupidity there is on this forum. Bwlow 1 mil gp is relevant since when? Also dont follow farming guides? Its exactly those people who get revan who dont follow farming guides. Please just stop responding you trying to always explain the failure of cg and defending their **** actions starts to get annoying.

    So dismissing players due to an arbitrary line in the sand you decide is not a weak argument?

    Got it. Feel free not to respond.

    You are the one dismissing players who are not happy about the changes. You defend everything you are like the most obedient puppet of carrie. Your lack of understanding the game is weird, i bet you dont play the game you just repeat what carrie who should have been fired long ago says.

    Please read back my entire conversation about this, I am not dismissing the players that are effected. I was replying to someone who quoted the dev saying it will not drastically change PvP (after I pointed out that it will not beat revan, and may have issues against Kru lead, unless the team is faster than it currently is where all you needed was Poe to be faster) and if as they say the will still be handily taking down many of the teams it's used to counter, then they are correct, it's not a drastic change. It seems to be a very direct change to how it interacts against a single team, but that's not drastic, even if it was one of the go to counters for that team.

    I have been playing since early Dec of '15. Picked it up right after the release.
  • So what character is the grevious rework going to break so I know not to waste my zeta? How about Darth Revan, will you do such a poor job testing him on different teams that all of a sudden your going to change how Ebb and Flow works on Thrawn? Do you get what I'm getting at. You did a ctap Jon of testing a new character. The players figured out how to use him to great effect and you didn't like it. So instead of fixing the content that C3PO was breaking, or fixing his kit in particular that caused the endless loop, you changed the zeta on an character that character completely changing how he works and then you deny those who invested in him the ability to put the zeta on something more useful. How should I feel comfortable investing in ANY character in this game when you CONSTANTLY fail to properly test characters before they are released and end up fixing them by "reworking" older characters that I have already put time and resources into. Maybe you guys are right and he won't be a pile of crap, he sounds liek he will be much more useful when outside the leadership slot too, but you nerfed his leadership, so let me put it on something else. If his leadership still ends up working for what they want to use him for then they can put it back on. If it sucks and is only good for HAAT and p3, most people will likely want to invest elsewhere.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    I used zFinn successfully multpile times to get rid of revan teams in ga/tw effectively and even in arena.Hes destroyed now.
    No, he isn't. Just because he won't be able to swing 38 million damage against Traya doesn't mean he's "destroyed." If you can't think of a use for a toon who looks like he'll be able to easily stack up in the 1000+% damage range against a raid boss, you aren't trying.

    The kit doesn't seem like it will be on the same level though. I regularly use Finn in GA and TW to take out all kinds of teams - Revan, Traya, FO, EP, Ewoks... It gives me a lot of flexibility. The boost to the kit doesn't seem to compensate the loss of TM gain and I can't see them (Res & Co) having the same impact as before.
  • A4752375 wrote: »
    His basic got nerfed too. You have to attack 1 enemy 9 times with the basic to have the same total output damage from 9 basic attacks in his old kit. How many instances are you aware where you attack and enemy with finn's basic 9 or more times?
    Would you be so kind as to provide your math? Cause this doesn't line up with my math at all. According to my math he already does more total damage on his 4th basic attack in his new kit compared to his old.
  • I've got ZFinn, but honestly stopped using him in favor of a JTR lead. Ethics of refunding zetas aside (not ignoring, just seems a lot of people are already covering that topic) I do like the look of this rework, and am wondering if I can now slot him in (not as a leader) to my JTR team. I think the rest of the changes improve his kit dramatically as part of a resistance squad, even if his viability as a leader is drastically reduced. Yeah, if they refunded the zeta I wouldn't put it back on Finn, but I'm hoping to use him more now. (full disclosure, I only got 3PO to 6* so I've been unable to use the loop.)
  • A total disaster. I invested the Z long ago, before the raid and now don’t work for me. No z refund...?
  • KueChael
    785 posts Moderator
    GunnerFCm wrote: »
    I've got ZFinn, but honestly stopped using him in favor of a JTR lead. Ethics of refunding zetas aside (not ignoring, just seems a lot of people are already covering that topic) I do like the look of this rework, and am wondering if I can now slot him in (not as a leader) to my JTR team. I think the rest of the changes improve his kit dramatically as part of a resistance squad, even if his viability as a leader is drastically reduced. Yeah, if they refunded the zeta I wouldn't put it back on Finn, but I'm hoping to use him more now. (full disclosure, I only got 3PO to 6* so I've been unable to use the loop.)

    I’m also in a wait and see... just theory crafting a JTR Lead, Holdo, Finn, RT, BB8 team could be a bit more beefy on D. As for his lead, I also was barely using it. So there was an infinite loop, they always will correct them.
  • Ichiraikou wrote: »
    A4752375 wrote: »
    His basic got nerfed too. You have to attack 1 enemy 9 times with the basic to have the same total output damage from 9 basic attacks in his old kit. How many instances are you aware where you attack and enemy with finn's basic 9 or more times?
    Would you be so kind as to provide your math? Cause this doesn't line up with my math at all. According to my math he already does more total damage on his 4th basic attack in his new kit compared to his old.

    I am talking about total damage. So his old kit does 100% more damage from second time and beyond. So using 100 as base damage, rhe total damage is (100 + 200*n) where n is number of attacks.

    The new kit does 20% more damage. I am assuming 20% increase from his base 9f 100 so that is 120 on second, 140 on third, 160 on fourth and so on. So mathematically for n number of attacks the total damage is (100 + [100 + 20(n-1)])/2* n. OR more simply (100 + 120 + 140 + 160 + 180 + 200 + 220 + 240 + 260 + 280) = 1900 for 9 attacks. This is same number you get for old kit with 9 basic.

    It just cant be 120% of previous attack because thats exponentially increasing and his attack damage would rapidly blow up.

  • Drazhar
    697 posts Member
    edited February 16
    Since there are changes to character, we want our zeta back to choose whether to zeta him back or not, exactly as it happened with Daka. Why are you assuming that we will furtherly invest on him? Come on, this is basic fairness.
  • Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but here's a thought...

    Instead of making so many changes to the toons we invest time and money in (4 major changes and counting in less than a year thanks to this one raid) why don't you hire more testers for theory crafting?? I think there's plenty of people here who'd beta test for you for free....

    Or wait here's a better one, rollback all the **** changes you've made since the sith raid launched, and make changes to the raid that you are irrationally protecting as if it's an endangered species.

    One of my guildies made a good point that this also a preemptive attempt to protect the upcoming (unreleased) PvP meta. No reason for the F2P population to spend money on whoever is coming if there is an already existing counter.
  • A4752375 wrote: »
    Ichiraikou wrote: »
    A4752375 wrote: »
    His basic got nerfed too. You have to attack 1 enemy 9 times with the basic to have the same total output damage from 9 basic attacks in his old kit. How many instances are you aware where you attack and enemy with finn's basic 9 or more times?
    Would you be so kind as to provide your math? Cause this doesn't line up with my math at all. According to my math he already does more total damage on his 4th basic attack in his new kit compared to his old.

    I am talking about total damage. So his old kit does 100% more damage from second time and beyond. So using 100 as base damage, rhe total damage is (100 + 200*n) where n is number of attacks.

    The new kit does 20% more damage. I am assuming 20% increase from his base 9f 100 so that is 120 on second, 140 on third, 160 on fourth and so on. So mathematically for n number of attacks the total damage is (100 + [100 + 20(n-1)])/2* n. OR more simply (100 + 120 + 140 + 160 + 180 + 200 + 220 + 240 + 260 + 280) = 1900 for 9 attacks. This is same number you get for old kit with 9 basic.

    It just cant be 120% of previous attack because thats exponentially increasing and his attack damage would rapidly blow up.

    My bad... I misread his basic. You are right about your math..
  • A4752375 wrote: »
    I am talking about total damage. So his old kit does 100% more damage from second time and beyond. So using 100 as base damage, rhe total damage is (100 + 200*n) where n is number of attacks.

    The new kit does 20% more damage. I am assuming 20% increase from his base 9f 100 so that is 120 on second, 140 on third, 160 on fourth and so on. So mathematically for n number of attacks the total damage is (100 + [100 + 20(n-1)])/2* n. OR more simply (100 + 120 + 140 + 160 + 180 + 200 + 220 + 240 + 260 + 280) = 1900 for 9 attacks. This is same number you get for old kit with 9 basic.

    It just cant be 120% of previous attack because thats exponentially increasing and his attack damage would rapidly blow up.

    Aaah I see the mistake you made. His current "old" kit basic says, and I quote: Deal physical damage to target enemy. This attack deals 100% more damage to enemies that haven't already been struck by it.

    This means that the formula for his damage isn't (100 +200n) but (200 + 100n). A slight reading mistake.They can happen
  • I could never fully auto phase 3 of the Heroic Triumvirate raid with Finn and C3PO. But, why should that matter? We were able to beat the raid anyway, this team just gave us a way of doing it quicker.
  • Gannon
    1472 posts Member
    A4752375 wrote: »
    Ichiraikou wrote: »
    A4752375 wrote: »
    His basic got nerfed too. You have to attack 1 enemy 9 times with the basic to have the same total output damage from 9 basic attacks in his old kit. How many instances are you aware where you attack and enemy with finn's basic 9 or more times?
    Would you be so kind as to provide your math? Cause this doesn't line up with my math at all. According to my math he already does more total damage on his 4th basic attack in his new kit compared to his old.

    I am talking about total damage. So his old kit does 100% more damage from second time and beyond. So using 100 as base damage, rhe total damage is (100 + 200*n) where n is number of attacks.

    The new kit does 20% more damage. I am assuming 20% increase from his base 9f 100 so that is 120 on second, 140 on third, 160 on fourth and so on. So mathematically for n number of attacks the total damage is (100 + [100 + 20(n-1)])/2* n. OR more simply (100 + 120 + 140 + 160 + 180 + 200 + 220 + 240 + 260 + 280) = 1900 for 9 attacks. This is same number you get for old kit with 9 basic.

    It just cant be 120% of previous attack because thats exponentially increasing and his attack damage would rapidly blow up.

    trmx437ax115.png
  • SwedishHeat
    9 posts Member
    edited February 16
    Refund the Zeta.

    It's insulting that you would change how it works, then state you 'have no intention of refunding the zeta".
  • Gawejn
    835 posts Member
    edited February 16
    Kyno, stop. If you don’t have Revan you lose. In everything. Arena, TW, GW, GA. I see fully zetaed, g12+ Revan teams 200 deep in my arena shard, not sure how much further down it goes. Don’t fall on a rusty sword.

    Back on topic, I want my zeta back @cg_carrie.

    This is not True, I play NS, couse I dont have Revan, and in my arena shard everyone has Revan. I was today 54 at my payout. In GA two opponents had Revan team, but I won GA this time. Without Revan. I think everyone should receive refund of zeta mats if their Finn had zeta upgrade. Also after watching vid with cls and c3po in phase3 i think that this rework of Finn is not solving the problem of potential loop in phase 3 with not upgraded c3po. It quite similar to zombie. Also I think reworked Finn will bring a lot to resistance faction, this Finn team was a garbage and mechanic with expose train was silly. One mistake and this team was dead in next round in pvp.
  • camper288
    95 posts Member
    edited February 16
    @Kyno

    Who decides an argument is weak or not for the modification of a product or service is the supreme king, The Customer. Customers are unhappy and this should make EA publish on the forum that the Zfinn change would be suspended until the situation is reevaluated. Even if this law of capitalism were not strong enough, it goes another argument to prove that yours is weak.

    By investing 20 zetas, 13 omegas and 30 MK3 skill materials. what any player expects is predictability that some team will continue to perform in a certain way.

    The real point that you want to change is that the ZFinn Attack Team can not knock down the target team, whoever it may be. Have courage and openly talk about it to the community.

    Using the P3 raid Sith and HAAT loop problem to make the change you really want is simply intellectual dishonesty on the part of the game team.

    Why has not all Han ST mechanics been altered by the Sith raid? They made the traya not activate the ability without a direct damage. something in the same direction could have been made and was not.

    Please make a change in the zeta of the finn.
    1) Assume that the central point is not the loops but the goal of the arena.
    2) Return the Finn Zetas
    3) Apologize for trying to treat players as fools

  • I guess we can’t have more than one or two pvp viable teams in arena’s
  • Can we perhaps get a video of the new gameplay? I think a visual will be better for everyone.
  • Only if TMR wasnt resistable, then this rework would not be much of a nerf.
  • Devian
    128 posts Member
    edited February 16
    Can you compensate 5 Zeta's for Finn's rework? I need more characters to make better =3
    Or just additional zeta for grievous, thnx!
  • WhoGotDeathSticks
    1 posts Member
    edited February 16
    I put this zeta on Finn the 2nd week he got one. I did not put it on for a loop that came 2yrs later by CGs own doing. We get punished for foolish moves like not testing c-3po enough to realize there's an infinite loop. Took the community 2 days to find it but CG couldn't figure that out in months of testing 3po. What a joke. Now Finn's kit completely changed and those who zetaed him originally (not for a sith raid loop) get punished. @CG_Carrie plz rethink the no zeta refund comment. Players should have a choice to keep the zeta or repurpose it instead of feeling we were sold one item and now received something else. False advertisement at it's worst
    Post edited by WhoGotDeathSticks on
  • Not cool cg
    I mainly use zfinn for lstb since it saves me needing a full g11/12 resistance team, that's out the window now
    Another nerf to an established toon to protect the shiny new thing that caused the problem
    Since there's a cls-3p0 loop that's just been discovered shall we expect a cls nerf as well?
  • NicWester wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Lets look at what this new kit does

    >You need a squad of 5 resistance toons (good luck!)
    >15% TM gain to all resistance allies on hitting an exposed target
    >25% TM loss on target enemy depending on potency-tenacity check

    I think the implication here is also that your TM gain and removal decreases each time a resistance ally is killed during battle so it keeps getting worse as the battle goes on

    It also removes synergy with other toons that deal expose since the TM gain/loss is more significant

    It would be more fun and thematic if *Determination* increased potency and tenacity when teammates died or debuffs applied - to a point

    His leader ability doesn't specify active allies. Some abilities constantly check for ally status, but others (usually leader abilities) just check when the encounter starts. @CG_TopHat can we get a clarification, please? Will Finn's leader ability get weaker as other Resistance allies die off?

    Sorry bro they are to busy thinking of new ways to ruin the game to respond.

    It’s a weekend, they’ll get back to us on Monday.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    2997 posts Member
    edited February 16
    I figure this "Change" is because Finns current kit is a threat to Revan and players are upset (whales). Otherwise it would have happened long ago, and the fix would have been to TRAYA not Finn. My two cents. Just a feeling having seen this type of "fix" happen over and over.. They nerfed JTR in SRT only. Finn is nerfed across the board. Why else but to stop him from being a clear and present danger to a newly released OP hero? This is my opinion, your mileage may vary. The only other explanation is CG's testing of new heroes needs a lot of improvement and possibly new, or more testers.
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • m0rality
    150 posts Member
    edited February 16
    I figure this "Change" is because Finns current kit is a threat to Revan and players are upset (whales). Otherwise it would have happened long ago, and the fix would have been to TRAYA not Finn. My two cents. Just a feeling having seen this type of "fix" happen over and over.. They nerfed JTR in SRT only. Finn is nerfed across the board. Why else but to stop him from being a clear and present danger to a newly released OP hero? This is my opinion, your mileage may vary. The only other explanation is CG's testing of new heroes needs a lot of improvement and possibly new, or more testers.

    I dont think so. Most whales arent worried about how this impacts raids. They are concerned about how it impacts PVP.
  • m0rality wrote: »
    I figure this "Change" is because Finns current kit is a threat to Revan and players are upset (whales). Otherwise it would have happened long ago, and the fix would have been to TRAYA not Finn. My two cents. Just a feeling having seen this type of "fix" happen over and over.. They nerfed JTR in SRT only. Finn is nerfed across the board. Why else but to stop him from being a clear and present danger to a newly released OP hero? This is my opinion, your mileage may vary. The only other explanation is CG's testing of new heroes needs a lot of improvement and possibly new, or more testers.

    I dont think so. Most whales arent worried about how this impacts raids. They are concerned about how it impacts PVP.

    Whales run Finn lead in arena?
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • m0rality
    150 posts Member
    edited February 16
    m0rality wrote: »
    I figure this "Change" is because Finns current kit is a threat to Revan and players are upset (whales). Otherwise it would have happened long ago, and the fix would have been to TRAYA not Finn. My two cents. Just a feeling having seen this type of "fix" happen over and over.. They nerfed JTR in SRT only. Finn is nerfed across the board. Why else but to stop him from being a clear and present danger to a newly released OP hero? This is my opinion, your mileage may vary. The only other explanation is CG's testing of new heroes needs a lot of improvement and possibly new, or more testers.

    I dont think so. Most whales arent worried about how this impacts raids. They are concerned about how it impacts PVP.

    Whales run Finn lead in arena?

    No. Most large guilds run zFinn as an anti-Traya team in TW. The best composition was zFinn, Poe, RT, zNest, R2 (or RP).
This discussion has been closed.