Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • Resistance allies have +60% Defense, Offense, and Potency, and other allies have half that amount. Each time they damage an Exposed enemy, all Resistance allies gain 3% Turn Meter and the target enemy loses 5% Turn Meter for each Resistance ally. Damaging an Exposed enemy also reduces Resistance allies' cooldowns by 1.

    +
    With +60% potency on toons modded for pot, resistance can get pretty high on the resistance check. Probably in most cases only limited by the minimum 15% resistance check.

    The target enemy will most likely lose 25% tm (5 resistance toons x 5%), and each Resistance toon will gain 15% tm (5 allies x 3%). That's a max of 40% tm differential on the target. This is better than the 35% previously. CG offset this gain by reducing the 35% tm differential on non-targeted toons to 15% (5 allies x 3%) from 35%. Which is a pretty significant drop off. But they also added a cd reduction mechanic. Potentially Scav Rey could be doing her specials every turn. Rex showed the tm gain doesn't have to be as big as 35% to be effective. Ten up might be a problem though at the end of the day. But that was a problem before in trying to land an expose in the 1st place.

    I think zFinn teams can actually stilll be good, even after the zeta change, in Arena and TW/GA.


    Sure, they can be good to beat, say... Tuskens or Jawas!! Or... Kenobi lead!!! WOOOOOOW!!! Maybe a KRU!!

    Awesome!!!

    Well, the old ZFinn beats Revan, but who cares?? We can now beat Kenobi lead, people!!! KENOBI WALLS ARE GONNA CRUMBLE TO PIECES!!!

    HUZZAH!!! FINN REWORK FTW!!!!

  • Ok so before change zFinn could:

    Solo HAAT (2,3,4 on full auto)
    Solo P3 HSTR (mostly on auto)
    Beat Traya on offense with none resistance specific team (most people don't even own 10 resistance characters, and most of the faction is not worth farming)
    Beat Revan on offense (same team as Traya)
    Beat FO on offense

    And this is precisely the reason why it is good that they changed him.


    ...and that's precisely why it's a nerf, not a rework.
  • Dhuriya24
    77 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    deleted double post
    Post edited by Dhuriya24 on
  • Its actually illegal to not refund when the product is no longer anywhere close to what it was. At least not in the EU. And since the game is available there it is considered operating there.
  • How many game mechanics and characters are going to be changed over this boring,horrible,raid that no one enjoys?

    On damage abilities became un-activateable in P3-P4, after the raid was released for a month, neutering 17 chars, well 18 because they forget to neuter Fives and did it to him later. (I'd obviously prefer a rework of the raid than to change char kits obviously, but Rancor and Tank though annoying when they were released, didn't result in changes to characters and the raid every month.)

    Expose got nerfed because of "1 team getting too much damage" from a game mechanic from 2016 when the only people who even had JTR at the time most likely had to be phenomenal at arena or spend some cash to unlock her.

    Deathmark also got nerfed.

    Acolyte also got a rework though at least it didn't severely alter her pvp viability.

    Bonds of weakness was amped up to the point of P4 becoming a buggy team and time swallowing mess for a
    weekend.

    Zombie got a rework just because people were benefiting from an under geared zombie in the raid (though at least her arena viability wasnt crushed because of it and you refunded Daka's zeta.)

    And now instead of all of the numerous suggestions provided to prevent a TM loop in P3 only possible with C3, your going to nerf a character into oblivion from being able to take on Revan to *maybe* being able to handle jedi and clones under Kenobi...when his leadership wasnt even utilized when he was released.

    Nerfing a F2P character able to compete with the meta, that the majority of players invested in years ago is cruel, especially since you know in advance that his rework will make him unable to take out the majority of factions (especially Revan and Traya, and no, being able to take out teams in the 1000's in arena is not a good rework). The holiest mods will not make Resistance under Finn a viable faction, and a new player with any sense wouldnt drop a zeta on him with this rework.

    Sorry that 2 months were wasted coming up with this horrible *compensation* for an amazing character that finally got off the arena bench due to c3, but it's clear that you need to go back to the drawing board and modify your raid...again. Even a zeta refund would not rectify crushing a character's PVP viability.

    Reworks are supposed to make characters *better*, vs your obvious intention of reworking a character to make them worse.
  • Like... the refund on Daka was even less fair because her zeta was still appealing and she did something very similar to her previous kit. This time the kit is completely messed up and you refuse to refund us the zeta? What happened? There is an historical precedent to this (Daka), you shouldn't have refunded our zetas when you reworked her if you wanted to refuse refunding us like this with Finn. Now you have to. And please, cut it with the "we assume you will furtherly invest on him, so we won't refund" thing. Nobody believes that and it's a quite simplistic way to dump all your customers. I hope these several pages of happy customers are enough to make you rethink the whole thing.
  • Yes, it's invalid because no one in the community (OK, definitely someone since I believe you're not alone) and certainly not CG considered it a problem in the first place - find me one place where CG acknowledges that Finn's lead is broken and that they are constrained in any way because of it. The only (publicly stated) reason they decided to touch Finn is because of the STR loop and nothing else. You may have your views but they're certainly not shared by CG and most of the community.
    Most gamers, if you give them an exploitive win button to smash things with and they cannot perceive it being used against them, will say that button is awesome.

    I suspect sentiment regarding zFinn would be a lot more mixed if we could see our defenses. See just what gets knocked down by low geared a zFinn loop. If we could see both sides, rather than just winning with zFinn and a dissociated "Total battles: 1" of unknown source on defense.

    And this is not the first time zFinn has been a problem. The last time we got a cluster of Resistance units, it was JTR, Rose, and Amilyn. And as their kits dropped, people very quickly noticed that none of them could expose outside of JTR's leadership ability. Which was swiftly attributed to them not wanting to give Finn more tools, because that would break Finn. After all, three exposers. 35% TM to the party per expose popped. That **** was already on a knife edge.

    But they can't keep doing that. Can't keep this leadership ability so precarious that it can never be given anything again, when its tools are merely Geonosian Soldier levels of meh. "Resistance can never get another good source of expose," is not a healthy design restriction.

    hSith was just a symptom. Not the problem.
    Still not a he.
  • Finn was nerfed because the devs dont want anyone to beat their precious money grab Revan. Tjeu dont care about the raids, they just know that Finns zeta was a threat to their cash cow. Remember the Zomhie nerf? Threat. Remember any nerf? Threat. If it means they lose money because an already established toon which everyone has can stop even a little spending, they nerf them. This post womt be seen. Itll be removed because they dont wamt tje truth known. But, ik gonna screenshot it and post it everywhere i can. This endless parade of toons dropping and "must haves" is just greed. There was a time people wouldnt have stood for this. Only sheep welcome being treated like this. Bye CG. Never again, 8f your name is attached to it, i pass.
    o7nd5kan9ezg.jpg
    Lørd' Ąngęłùs
    "Well begun is half done."
  • This thread is already way too hot for me to keep up with but I want to give my feedback to the developers like everyone else, so forgive me if I repeat previous comments.

    I originally zeta'd Finn for GW, not for raids, not as a Revan counter.
    I don't care about squad arena viability, I'm not concerned about this characters viability at the top tier of PvP, I don't have him at G12 (nor Poe or RT)
    I don't care about HAAT, I use Finn on P2 for a bit of damage but I do not rely on him for any other aspect of this raid.
    What I care about is Finn's role in GA/TW/TB where he creates a squad that can punch above its galactic power, I have always thought Finn had a very nice balance between attack and defense, being a very good attacking squad but a fairly useless defensive squad due to the AIs (which is stretching the term a little as it is more pure randomness) inability to use him effectively. It still had a nice balance even in the attacking role as rng was always a real factor and I liked that, it was generally risky but could pay big while still having counters (opening taunts, auto taunts, opening tenacity). Also it was a squad that didn't rely on speed mods like every other squad does. But most importantly Finn is fun!

    I fear the developers only test these changes at the extremes and ignore all the sub optimal Finns out there, please don't base your testing on just how a maxxed out squad works before and after. It also strikes me as an awful lot of time invested, to rework Finn in this way instead of going with simpler solutions, that could have been used developing other things. I feel like the raid fix was really just an excuse to fix something they haven't liked for a while, I guess they regret the 35% TM increase they originally went with.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    The problem is that with Finn's lead working the old way, CG can never add an actual, good unit who engages significantly with Expose as a mechanic. In a faction where expose is nominally their main mechanic. From a design perspective, Finn is the problem, and if his lead doesn't change, CG is going to be hamstrung expanding the Resistance faction for Star Wars: Resistance and Episode 9 unless they just veer off in an entirely different direction with Resistance toons who don't bother with Expose and instead do entirely different stuff.

    I get you (although I doubt CG had the same reasoning). Thing is, however, they don't need to continue using expose as a 'main mechanic'. In fact, the newer Resistance doesn't even have it, dazing and stunning instead. Finn could remain a niche squad like Phoenix or FO or Clones etc. The problem is with the golden droid; there's no logical explanation of why he throws Resistance 'main mechanic' on Rebels and Ewoks. It could have been any other debuff like, say, Daze. In fact, they should have fixed that, and C-3PO would have still remained a tier-A character (maybe even better).

    Instead, they're effectively killing a tier-B team and making a complete bystander named Poe totally useless.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    Undo the "rework" NERF
    CG CG don't nerf our Finn
    doing so would be a sin
    CG CG don't nerf our Finn
    don't go full bore Pay2Win
    CG CG sorry we broke you meta
    the old Finn lead was straight out betta
    CG CG why are you so afraid?
    that Finn & 3PO broke you widdle Sith raid?
    CG CG is it that Revan will be wiped by Grevious
    but zFinn could beat him, in this believe us!

    CG CG don't make us sick
    Make your money. Just don't be a ****.

    zFinn brought together toons from all factions- he didn't care if the expose was from sidious or Poe. Sabine or moe. He truly represented diversity- a leader of colour who brought eveyone together to give TM to his team. Undo the nerf.
  • A pity, I just hope that the HAAT and the pit with Finn as leader still works in autopilot !!! you could save a lot of time .... the game takes more and more time !!! .... GA TB TW Raids etc ... HSR is not a problem that phase 3 stops working !! but could have been easier! ...
  • Acrofales
    1363 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Dk_rek wrote: »
    Padas wrote: »
    Zeta refunds should be given and the players should be allowed to reinvest it if they deem this new completely different kit worthy of their hard earned resources.

    NOTHING really changed except the 3po cheese........ would love to see number of ppl who just zeta'd him for 3p0..... wrong.... old finn zeta was still a GA or TW win against most teams...

    sorry but as long as TM swing in PVP stayed the same...which it did it's BETTER..... i see no issue with this...

    I don't have 3po in defense yet

    It didn't though.

    It used to be 35% for ALL Resistance team members vs ALL your opponent's team.

    Now it's 15% for your (required to be full) Resistance team vs all your opponents, and 40% vs one single targeted opponent. Good luck targeting masked Kylo, or a Thrawn (or Nihilus) when he's hiding behind a pretaunting KRU or SiT. Moreover, that extra 25% goes through a potency/tenacity check, so this is now strictly worse vs some of the teams that zFinn was good at taking down. Moreover, if you want to run Sid for his healing immunity (pretty much a requirement to use zFinn vs things like scoundrels or FO), you just gimped your whole team by 3% TM gain.
  • No zeta or toon is safe if it affects a new bright and shiny.

    Terrible precedent.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Yes, it's invalid because no one in the community (OK, definitely someone since I believe you're not alone) and certainly not CG considered it a problem in the first place - find me one place where CG acknowledges that Finn's lead is broken and that they are constrained in any way because of it. The only (publicly stated) reason they decided to touch Finn is because of the STR loop and nothing else. You may have your views but they're certainly not shared by CG and most of the community.
    Most gamers, if you give them an exploitive win button to smash things with and they cannot perceive it being used against them, will say that button is awesome.

    I suspect sentiment regarding zFinn would be a lot more mixed if we could see our defenses. See just what gets knocked down by low geared a zFinn loop. If we could see both sides, rather than just winning with zFinn and a dissociated "Total battles: 1" of unknown source on defense.

    And this is not the first time zFinn has been a problem. The last time we got a cluster of Resistance units, it was JTR, Rose, and Amilyn. And as their kits dropped, people very quickly noticed that none of them could expose outside of JTR's leadership ability. Which was swiftly attributed to them not wanting to give Finn more tools, because that would break Finn. After all, three exposers. 35% TM to the party per expose popped. That **** was already on a knife edge.

    But they can't keep doing that. Can't keep this leadership ability so precarious that it can never be given anything again, when its tools are merely Geonosian Soldier levels of meh. "Resistance can never get another good source of expose," is not a healthy design restriction.

    hSith was just a symptom. Not the problem.

    I agree that most gamers would welcome the exploit but I disagree on all remaining points.

    The way zFinn works in PVP isn't nor has it ever been an exploit - it's simply a very powerful mechanic that needs certain conditions to be met in order to work and if you ever used it against Revan or Traya you know that in order to win (especially against Revan) you need good RNG and can't afford to make a single mistake. It's certainly not a "win button" as you put it. Even with 3PO in the game, you need a very well modded and geared team (two brand new legendaries, one Heroic raid character and 4+ zetas between them) if you want to have a chance against top teams and if you say that is an exploit then every single currently meta mechanic is an exploit as well.

    Also the sentiment about zFinn would be exactly the same whether you could see defends or not - if you're in a TW focused guild you know that you compose and mod your teams with possible counters in mind. For zFinn you put tenacity on FO and Jolee, you put Dooku with Traya, you put Nest with Scoundrels, etc. That's one of the things that most PVP oriented people love about this game - taking note of what your opponents can use to break you and designing your defenses to predict their patterns.

    EP 8 Resistance is a good example of how they can continue to creatively extend the faction without breaking the game. I certainly don't see Finn being a problem there - it made the whole faction more versatile. And JTR coming out was also a perfect moment for CG to rework Finn if they ever thought of him as a problem. Guess what? They didn't. And they definitely can keep doing it.

    Now, I'm not arguing that the game wouldn't be healthier with what they're proposing to change about Finn, I'm arguing that the changes they propose will impact a lot of players and that if the sole purpose is to remove an auto loop from the raid, there's certainly better ways to do it and ways that would impact a smaller piece of the player base. If they come out and say that Finn being OP is an additional reason to change him instead of changing something else then so be it, rework away. In either case, if they're going through with the change, I am also arguing that they absolutely need to refund the zeta and let players choose if they want to keep it.
  • LordGrahck wrote: »
    So, let me get this straight ...

    His basic is improved with damage that scales up with each hit.

    His 1st Special is practically rewritten and improved with better buffs, better healing, cleansing of debuffs, and an added unique bonus exclusive to Finn.

    His 2nd Special is improved with better chances to expose and given a chance to stun. Plus, it's improved for going up against Raid Bosses.

    His Leadership is given better bonuses, added bonuses that weren't there before, PLUS the addition of turn meter removal that wasn't there before ...

    And yet ... all of this is considered garbage and worthless because they reduced his turn meter gain??

    Sounds like to me that he got a well needed rework.

    As it stands before this upcoming patch, his entire kit is garbage. Name five people who actually LIKES using his basic attack outside of a desperate need to do so because of cool down time! Also, who can make an actually convincing argument that his "Hold the Line" special is better now than what it will be? What about his "Takedown" ability? Are you actually going to hold to the opinion that the improvements to it are worse than what it currently is?

    The Devs said back in December that this loop wasn't intended and they planned to fix it. That means that this infinite loop is a glitch ... an exploit ... in simpler terms ... it's a cheat!

    I find it amusing that this glitch is getting fixed and people are complaining because they can't use their illegal "I win!" tactic anymore. In fact, I'm leveling and gearing up my Finn and Resistance toons now in preparation for this patch. I'm excited by it.

    OH ... and FYI ... I've never used this glitch. Primarily because I don't have the characters. Even if I did, I wouldn't have used it because I frown upon exploits and cheating.

    People are not complaining about the raid glitch generally. Everyone knew that was a problem. You should actually read why the people here are complaining before making an incorrect blanket assessment. They are complaining about the change in his leadership ability as it applies to TB and TW where zFinn has seen CONSISTENT use.

    TM modifying leadership abilities are among the best in the game: Troopers, NS, JTR, Finn, and even Vaders had its time/place. No one sits around and relishes the basic attacks of any of those lead characters.

    If you actually developed a zFinn Resistance team with a maxed out high speed Poe and potency laden supporting cast, you would understand why this is frustrating. Players that struggled through the middle days of HAAT spent a ton of effort (and potentially money) developing that team. They continued to develop it for TB. Finally they realized that it was one of the most important offensive teams in TW.

    So to assume that people just care about his HSTR capabilities is just completely false.

  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Yes, it's invalid because no one in the community (OK, definitely someone since I believe you're not alone) and certainly not CG considered it a problem in the first place - find me one place where CG acknowledges that Finn's lead is broken and that they are constrained in any way because of it. The only (publicly stated) reason they decided to touch Finn is because of the STR loop and nothing else. You may have your views but they're certainly not shared by CG and most of the community.
    Most gamers, if you give them an exploitive win button to smash things with and they cannot perceive it being used against them, will say that button is awesome.

    I suspect sentiment regarding zFinn would be a lot more mixed if we could see our defenses. See just what gets knocked down by low geared a zFinn loop. If we could see both sides, rather than just winning with zFinn and a dissociated "Total battles: 1" of unknown source on defense.

    And this is not the first time zFinn has been a problem. The last time we got a cluster of Resistance units, it was JTR, Rose, and Amilyn. And as their kits dropped, people very quickly noticed that none of them could expose outside of JTR's leadership ability. Which was swiftly attributed to them not wanting to give Finn more tools, because that would break Finn. After all, three exposers. 35% TM to the party per expose popped. That **** was already on a knife edge.

    But they can't keep doing that. Can't keep this leadership ability so precarious that it can never be given anything again, when its tools are merely Geonosian Soldier levels of meh. "Resistance can never get another good source of expose," is not a healthy design restriction.

    hSith was just a symptom. Not the problem.

    I agree that most gamers would welcome the exploit but I disagree on all remaining points.

    The way zFinn works in PVP isn't nor has it ever been an exploit - it's simply a very powerful mechanic that needs certain conditions to be met in order to work and if you ever used it against Revan or Traya you know that in order to win (especially against Revan) you need good RNG and can't afford to make a single mistake. It's certainly not a "win button" as you put it. Even with 3PO in the game, you need a very well modded and geared team (two brand new legendaries, one Heroic raid character and 4+ zetas between them) if you want to have a chance against top teams and if you say that is an exploit then every single currently meta mechanic is an exploit as well.

    Also the sentiment about zFinn would be exactly the same whether you could see defends or not - if you're in a TW focused guild you know that you compose and mod your teams with possible counters in mind. For zFinn you put tenacity on FO and Jolee, you put Dooku with Traya, you put Nest with Scoundrels, etc. That's one of the things that most PVP oriented people love about this game - taking note of what your opponents can use to break you and designing your defenses to predict their patterns.

    EP 8 Resistance is a good example of how they can continue to creatively extend the faction without breaking the game. I certainly don't see Finn being a problem there - it made the whole faction more versatile. And JTR coming out was also a perfect moment for CG to rework Finn if they ever thought of him as a problem. Guess what? They didn't. And they definitely can keep doing it.

    Now, I'm not arguing that the game wouldn't be healthier with what they're proposing to change about Finn, I'm arguing that the changes they propose will impact a lot of players and that if the sole purpose is to remove an auto loop from the raid, there's certainly better ways to do it and ways that would impact a smaller piece of the player base. If they come out and say that Finn being OP is an additional reason to change him instead of changing something else then so be it, rework away. In either case, if they're going through with the change, I am also arguing that they absolutely need to refund the zeta and let players choose if they want to keep it.

    Agree...but this goes way beyond a zeta. People maxed out Poe, possibly farmed and maxed out RP, and then farmed mods for all of them...all to use that team in TW.
  • mvmss wrote: »
    Resistance allies have +60% Defense, Offense, and Potency, and other allies have half that amount. Each time they damage an Exposed enemy, all Resistance allies gain 3% Turn Meter and the target enemy loses 5% Turn Meter for each Resistance ally. Damaging an Exposed enemy also reduces Resistance allies' cooldowns by 1.

    +
    With +60% potency on toons modded for pot, resistance can get pretty high on the resistance check. Probably in most cases only limited by the minimum 15% resistance check.

    The target enemy will most likely lose 25% tm (5 resistance toons x 5%), and each Resistance toon will gain 15% tm (5 allies x 3%). That's a max of 40% tm differential on the target. This is better than the 35% previously. CG offset this gain by reducing the 35% tm differential on non-targeted toons to 15% (5 allies x 3%) from 35%. Which is a pretty significant drop off. But they also added a cd reduction mechanic. Potentially Scav Rey could be doing her specials every turn. Rex showed the tm gain doesn't have to be as big as 35% to be effective. Ten up might be a problem though at the end of the day. But that was a problem before in trying to land an expose in the 1st place.

    I think zFinn teams can actually stilll be good, even after the zeta change, in Arena and TW/GA.


    Sure, they can be good to beat, say... Tuskens or Jawas!! Or... Kenobi lead!!! WOOOOOOW!!! Maybe a KRU!!

    Awesome!!!

    Well, the old ZFinn beats Revan, but who cares?? We can now beat Kenobi lead, people!!! KENOBI WALLS ARE GONNA CRUMBLE TO PIECES!!!

    HUZZAH!!! FINN REWORK FTW!!!!

    I'd have to agree that on paper, it doesn't look good for zFinn squads vs Revan. But I'm ok with that. zFinn in my opinion shouldn't beat revan, who is now available to even f2p. Anyone can have revan. So Wai I say, and the fact zFinn could even entertain the idea of beating revan was just broken. If that's all you have, then that's a very small issue.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • mvmss wrote: »
    Resistance allies have +60% Defense, Offense, and Potency, and other allies have half that amount. Each time they damage an Exposed enemy, all Resistance allies gain 3% Turn Meter and the target enemy loses 5% Turn Meter for each Resistance ally. Damaging an Exposed enemy also reduces Resistance allies' cooldowns by 1.

    +
    With +60% potency on toons modded for pot, resistance can get pretty high on the resistance check. Probably in most cases only limited by the minimum 15% resistance check.

    The target enemy will most likely lose 25% tm (5 resistance toons x 5%), and each Resistance toon will gain 15% tm (5 allies x 3%). That's a max of 40% tm differential on the target. This is better than the 35% previously. CG offset this gain by reducing the 35% tm differential on non-targeted toons to 15% (5 allies x 3%) from 35%. Which is a pretty significant drop off. But they also added a cd reduction mechanic. Potentially Scav Rey could be doing her specials every turn. Rex showed the tm gain doesn't have to be as big as 35% to be effective. Ten up might be a problem though at the end of the day. But that was a problem before in trying to land an expose in the 1st place.

    I think zFinn teams can actually stilll be good, even after the zeta change, in Arena and TW/GA.


    Sure, they can be good to beat, say... Tuskens or Jawas!! Or... Kenobi lead!!! WOOOOOOW!!! Maybe a KRU!!

    Awesome!!!

    Well, the old ZFinn beats Revan, but who cares?? We can now beat Kenobi lead, people!!! KENOBI WALLS ARE GONNA CRUMBLE TO PIECES!!!

    HUZZAH!!! FINN REWORK FTW!!!!

    I'd have to agree that on paper, it doesn't look good for zFinn squads vs Revan. But I'm ok with that. zFinn in my opinion shouldn't beat revan, who is now available to even f2p. Anyone can have revan. So Wai I say, and the fact zFinn could even entertain the idea of beating revan was just broken. If that's all you have, then that's a very small issue.

    My issue is not beating Revan alone. Is giving you an option that doesn't involve uber mods to beat Revan. I have Revan, I just hate those mirror matches - heck, who enjoys them??

    So what if dusty old zFinn could beat Revan? Have you tried Revan on offense against zFinn?? It's over under a minute, once GMY starts taking his 8 turns in a row.

    ZFinn was awesome because it took different mods other than speed, speed, speed, to make it work. He was the one team everyone has that works as a "out of jail card" against some really tough opponents. If everyone has it, how can it be unfair??

    It's the mouse that used to bring down elephants, but now takes on larger mice. Maybe.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    CG is soooo inconsistent
    CG says "we have no problem with Finn's mechanics or soloing HAAT" but instead of just fixing HSTR, they nerf Finn
    CG says "we want a variety of teams in arena" and then nerf one of the few reliable Revan counters and create a monoculture in Arena (48/50 top teams in my shard are Revan)
    CG says "we want players to focus on all mods not just speed" and when we craft a zFinn team that needs other mods than speed, they force us back to using "the fastest Revan" mod paradigm.
    Come on CG, stop the lies. Back up your meaningless words with real actions. Undo the zFinn nerf.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    KM1 wrote: »
    CG is soooo inconsistent
    CG says "we have no problem with Finn's mechanics or soloing HAAT" but instead of just fixing HSTR, they nerf Finn

    We are being told they can still solo the HAAT raid.
    KM1 wrote: »
    CG says "we want a variety of teams in arena" and then nerf one of the few reliable Revan counters and create a monoculture in Arena (48/50 top teams in my shard are Revan)
    .

    He was dead in the meta report well before this update was announced, never mind actually launched.
    KM1 wrote: »
    CG says "we want players to focus on all mods not just speed" and when we craft a zFinn team that needs other mods than speed, they force us back to using "the fastest Revan" mod paradigm.

    ??
    That team will still want things like potency, protection, health, and possibly defense or offense with the new kit.

    What they want and what the players will do are 2 different things, there is no getting away from speed until they start making kits that punish a toon for being faster than the attacker.
    Other than your last point (because we dont have anyone yet that punishes the other player for having speed.) what you are saying doesnt show any lies.

    Does this make the changes right, no, but let's try to keep things civil so we have a real conversation.
  • hey!

    I have not zeta‘d Finn yet, but I would like to get a zeta too, make it happen CG ok ?
  • Carth_Onassi1973
    1704 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Ugnaught wrote: »
    Haat was soloable long before the zfinn/3po interaction. It was kind of a cheese mechanic anyway.

    It still will be, but with all resistance with a JTR lead instead of adding rebels.

    And with the extra damage Finn will be doing (with his zeta) it probably will go faster.

    A shame they’re destroying his lead in PVP, though.


  • Seeming pretty transparent to me. Someone had mentioned before that putting the “we won’t be refunding zetas” in the original dev post as being diversionary. Rolling back on that so they can say they are “comprising” in some way and refunding them last hour is almost certainly the plan. But the problem with that is, the player base is too intelligent. They solve these ridiculous puzzles in mere hours that I wouldn’t even know where to begin on.. it’s the same tactics and tricks used too many times. Don’t tell us things like he’s almost as good pvp when before he beat revan and now won’t. It’s almost insulting to a point to be told stuff like that.. I have a g12 revan team I can’t even stand using in arena. I still run traya to climb to my average tank of first every single day on a January 16 shard that currently has 47/50 revan.

    I don’t think we should touch Finn at all. Almost my entire guild has 7* traya. The raid isn’t fun anymore to us. It’s not. More than 20% of the guild has 7* C3PO and only a handful of guys even care enough anymore to even do “the loop”. But the rest are really, honestly, happy to have the phase move along. Those that can do the loop are more advanced rosters anyways who could still get top spots in raids if they wanted. Give traya X% tm every time she takes damage under topple and it’s fixed. Come on. Easy stuff..

    That being said, in our guild it’s not a problem, in the instances where it’s not the case and this loop causing some harm to the guild: that’s YOUR guilds problem. If it’s bothering members that player X with a garbage roster and 3po is nuking p3 and making guys mad... make a rule change. This isn’t a community wide issue. How long has this raid been out? What is a realistic timeframe for being allowed to solo a phase on auto? If the goal of this game is to be fun to it’s players, realize that some of our circumstances are different and that should allow some leeway in some things.

    This nerf won’t effect my personal gameplay really at all except to make p3 HSith a crappy rng fest again. But I’m really disappointed. Just wanted to throw in my two cents to one last time plea to:

    1. Leave Finn alone
    2. Announce the zeta refund already
  • Nope.... not good enough... it has ruined an elegant PvE team that all of my guild worked on for LSTBs.
    This ruins the PvE element.... PvP, if oppositions piled Tenacity and speed on the teams zFinn Resistance could beat, then zFinn generally was less efficient than a coin flip.
    This is saving C3P0, to ruin a stalwart of the game, and then buffing the be-jeesus out of him in another (much less useable) way to compensate.
    The question is, what toon have we geared/modded/levelled/omega'd/zeta'd (not to mention any accompanying team members) which will be nerfed next???
  • For me, AhnaldT and Mobilegamer nailed it: So far, the Finn zeta made a low gear resistance B-Team with Poe, pilot and trooper (the latter was the only one I had geared above g9/g10) very viable for TW, GA and LSTB.
    With the rework, in order to make use of the zeta, I'm pretty sure it will require to gear up Finn, Poe and pilot as well.
    While that may eventually be worth the effort, the rework definitely changes the mechanics and thus the basis of our investment decisions at large. So the zeta should be refunded.
    What's the issue with it? You've done it before, so you have the technology. Why not act as customer-friendly as possible?
    If you are right and zFinn actually is better than before, people will gladly equip him with that zeta again.
  • While I agree the rework makes Finn beefier, what made him special was the TM provided. There will be better leads after the "fix" and I don't think players who have found and exploited an interaction oversight on your part should be penalized by changing a character that has been around for 3 years! I don't even think topple should be fixed. It made the HAAT more fun to be able auto and allowed some to compete with members who had revan in the sith raid. Furthermore you admitted that you made daka worse which is why you have the zeta back. The least that can be done here is to allow us to make that choice again with Finn. Shame on you.
This discussion has been closed.