Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • Kyno wrote: »
    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Does the rework beat Revan?

    That is all I'm interested in and I couldn't care less about Finn in raids (HAAT, srsly???).

    Yes, I do have Revan and I think Revan mirror matches are probably the worst since I started playing this game, long ago.

    So, the question is, does the new Finn beat Revan?

    no. they are too fast and will resist TMR.

    even against FO, it looks questionable due to the speed they have.

    Right, though, here's what CG said:

    "These changes do not drastically alter the performance of the Finn-led Resistance squad in PvP, but his changes do offer the team some additional utility and a slight improvement in their PvP presence. With ramping damage now present on Finn’s basic ability and his 2nd special ability, the longer he can stay alive and the more turns he can take, the more potent he becomes. Determination goes a long way in making this a reality, as it provides not only an additional means of spreading damage around the team by providing Finn with the ability to Taunt, but also grants him Retribution which can give him a few free hits to ramp up damage on his basic ability. While these changes haven’t brought the Resistance squad into the current competitive meta, they can more handily dispose of teams such as Kylo Ren (Unmasked)-led First Order and General Kenobi-led Jedi."

    My sole interest in ZFinn is pvp, giving me a somewhat reliable and fast way of beating Revan.

    It seems that does drastically change his pvp performance. And it's not just against "one team".

    There is more to PvP than arena. There are more teams used in PvP content than Revan.

    so changing the interaction with a single (or 2 teams) is not a drastic change to their PvP performance.

    I dont see him getting enough hits to make the bonus damage mean anything. I also dont see the TM gain against revan being enough to counter all the speed and TM gain on a revan team.

    I could be wrong about FO, but to get it going before you only needed Poe to be faster, now you will probably need more speed in general. so while it may be doable, its likely going to need changes to the whole team to be able to "handily dispose" of teams you could take down before.

    IMHO

    If Revan wasnt meta , you'd have a valid point , but changing the way a team interacts with the Meta , absolutely affects their pvp usage, im sorry.

    I was replying to why they may be saying that this wont drastically change pvp. Not that it will not drastically change the current arena situation, because it's hard to see how it wont.

    Finn is used in arena at many levels and not every shard is run by raven.

    Not every shard is run by revan? Are you blind? Everything is run by revan and sadly everything is destroyed because of revan.

    You do realize there are young shards, and on top of that players in the outer levels of arena using old metas still. I'm just trying to point out that not everything is about the top end of established shards.

    Not trying to minimize the effect on revan PvP, just that there is more PvP content than just against Revan. Which is why they may not consider this a "drastic change to PvP".

    Are you joking? The newer shards often have MORE Revans because less people have quit over time.
  • YaeVizsla
    3448 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    KM1 wrote: »
    1.)What line? The Devs said he was "working as intended". They didn't come up with you "knife's edge" ****. They said only his P3 interaction was broken (after the fact). And that could be fixed within P3 (the characters there aren't the standard toons anyway). But let's accept they did this because zFinn could eliminate the P2P GG team they developed. This nerf was to end zFinn as a viable arena/GA/TW team.
    2.) But that's a nerf, right? Ok. Thanks. He could work cross faction before, no issues, and now (over 2 years later) its a huuuuge deal
    3.) It wasn't a post asking for community feedback. It was informational- in the vein of "we are going to do this" and "we're not even going to acknowledge the toon you pumped resources (gear, zeta) is now completely different so no zeta refund"
    4.)Then don't promise to engage with the community. Just don't dissimulate.Be honest. But you probably don't understand.
    Nerfs and buffs, including to old content, are a part of sustaining a continuously supported game. There is no statute of limitations. As a game grows, certain old content can impede new growth. This is generally a progressive thing. The line is not so clear cut where something is a problem today but wasn't yesterday. It's progressive. There is no "when."

    You get up over "cross faction" Finn. Specifically, Sidious and Sabine Finn teams. But here's the thing. Those teams are the problem. You're not putting Darth Sidious on a Finn team because he meshes with it into a cohesive whole. The only reason he's there is he's faster than Poe and lands exposes, to get that engine running, then he's pointless. That's not a team. That's just exploiting an OP lead with scrap toons.

    "Community engagement" will never be you, the forum user, giving your input in a serious heart to heart with the devs. Just look at this thread. Pure venom.

    You wanna get something done, you first have to get people on the same page. Identify problems and set goals. "The Finn loop is the problem and needs to be fixed," is not something you're ever going to get the whole forum on board with, and if you try forum engagement, you're going to have people disrupting the proceedings screaming bloody murder about how dare they nerf Finn. Like they've been doing since Christmas. The best community feedback is gonna be is Crumb taking notes on threads and CG doing focus groups or something along the lines. Not the devs taking you the forumite's input personally. And no, the solution is not polls. Polls are useless for this sort of thing, and what's popular has little correlation to what's good for the game or what will fix the problem.

    This is not a lack of community engagement. Calling it a lack of communication is taking their words in a way it could never possibly mean. And this thread in particular is the worst way they could choose to engage the community.

    And yes. Yes, I do understand. Do not insult my intelligence.
    Still not a he.
  • @Kyno Can you point me to where the devs have posted that zFinn lead will still be able to solo HAAT? I saw tophat mention that zFinn lead would still be solid in phase 2,3,4 but no specific mention of it still being able to solo HAAT. Thanks in advance. Secondly, I always appreciate your chill when everyone else around you is losing it. Especially since we have not even had a chance to use zFinn with the changes in place yet.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    qfwm2001 wrote: »
    Kyno Can you point me to where the devs have posted that zFinn lead will still be able to solo HAAT? I saw tophat mention that zFinn lead would still be solid in phase 2,3,4 but no specific mention of it still being able to solo HAAT. Thanks in advance. Secondly, I always appreciate your chill when everyone else around you is losing it. Especially since we have not even had a chance to use zFinn with the changes in place yet.

    It was an off hand mention when we were all talking when the post was released, this is not an official statement. No details, just some reassurance that its still a possible solo team, but will be manual in P1.
  • For me, Finn is as useless as he was in The Last Jedi. Love the idea of Finn, but just bad writing.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    YaeVizsla wrote: »

    You get up over "cross faction" Finn. Specifically, Sidious and Sabine Finn teams. But here's the thing. Those teams are the problem. You're not putting Darth Sidious on a Finn team because he meshes with it into a cohesive whole. The only reason he's there is he's faster than Poe and lands exposes, to get that engine running, then he's pointless. That's not a team. That's just exploiting an OP lead with scrap toons.
    .

    So Rex-Wampa is broken for you? Dude, much of the fun in this game is for the players to figure out how to innovate. Not robots who do only what the Devs limited foresight can expect. But you're obviously into the linear gameplay, "get instructions on how the Devs want me to play" camp. I feel sorry for you. For most of us, we want to figure our how to do better than the Devs planned things and that's the fun of SWGOH.
  • The , cg is not in the office excuse has past, and still not a word. Smh
  • I just saw that stacking tenacity like most wanted as a fix doesnt work because of cls lead that has been found to cause the same infinte loop P3 solo issues with an unskilled under geared c3po. The question I have is will cls leader zeta get redone too since it also breaks the raid same as zfin?
  • KM1 wrote: »
    So Rex-Wampa is broken for you? Dude, much of the fun in this game is for the players to figure out how to innovate. Not robots who do only what the Devs limited foresight can expect. But you're obviously into the linear gameplay, "get instructions on how the Devs want me to play" camp. I feel sorry for you. For most of us, we want to figure our how to do better than the Devs planned things and that's the fun of SWGOH.
    Bloody...

    I did not say using out-of-faction characters is automatically broken.

    At this point, you're just being obstinate for its own sake.

    Rex grab back, or Barriss with Nightsisters, or Thrawn or Nest or Kenobi slotted in with virtually any team, or four droid JTR squads are fundamentally different from zFinn. The first set are all teams. They work together, they engage the enemy, and they fight each other.

    Slotting Sidious in a zFinn team is not to fight the opponent, and is not because Sidious meshes with the team. Sidious is there to get those first exposes on there as fast as possible so you can loop the enemy team to death before they act, or before they act meaningfully. Sidious zFinn is there to bypass the fight, not engage in it, and is an extremely unhealthy win state.

    The problem is not pulling in unexpected out-of-faction characters. It's the "rush to an infinite loop" win state.

    Yes, players do unexpected things. That's fine. But the consequence of doing unexpected things is revealing unexpected problems, either by using combinations that weren't planned for (ST Han under a Vader or Asajj lead), or by pushing things to unanticipated extremes, as is the case with the potency pushing and lineup finagling it takes to zFinn loop Traya.

    Fixing problems as they arise as an emergent property of play is not punishing the players for unconventional play. It's basic game maintenance.
    Still not a he.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    So Rex-Wampa is broken for you? Dude, much of the fun in this game is for the players to figure out how to innovate. Not robots who do only what the Devs limited foresight can expect. But you're obviously into the linear gameplay, "get instructions on how the Devs want me to play" camp. I feel sorry for you. For most of us, we want to figure our how to do better than the Devs planned things and that's the fun of SWGOH.
    Bloody...

    I did not say using out-of-faction characters is automatically broken.

    At this point, you're just being obstinate for its own sake.

    Rex grab back, or Barriss with Nightsisters, or Thrawn or Nest or Kenobi slotted in with virtually any team, or four droid JTR squads are fundamentally different from zFinn. The first set are all teams. They work together, they engage the enemy, and they fight each other.

    Slotting Sidious in a zFinn team is not to fight the opponent, and is not because Sidious meshes with the team. Sidious is there to get those first exposes on there as fast as possible so you can loop the enemy team to death before they act, or before they act meaningfully. Sidious zFinn is there to bypass the fight, not engage in it, and is an extremely unhealthy win state.

    The problem is not pulling in unexpected out-of-faction characters. It's the "rush to an infinite loop" win state.

    Yes, players do unexpected things. That's fine. But the consequence of doing unexpected things is revealing unexpected problems, either by using combinations that weren't planned for (ST Han under a Vader or Asajj lead), or by pushing things to unanticipated extremes, as is the case with the potency pushing and lineup finagling it takes to zFinn loop Traya.

    Fixing problems as they arise as an emergent property of play is not punishing the players for unconventional play. It's basic game maintenance.

    No, it's obviously pointless to argue with you since you're shilling. Just as the Rex lead takes advantage of giving TM to Wampa to help him and others go more often on crits, Just as zBarris heals the TM on crits, zFinn lead takes advantage of exposes to feed TM to resistance TMs. It's exactly the same type of mechanic. But as a wise man once said, you can't convince a man of something when his livelihood depends on believing the opposite.
    Breaking a 2 year old lead, which the Devs clearly stated (in writing) was working as intended and they had zero problems with (except in P3 of the HSTR) is not standard maintenance. It's both deceptive and dramatic overreaction. The community naturally assumes the reason was that it stood as a strong counter to upcoming P2P/P2W content. And I agree with the community
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    The , cg is not in the office excuse has past, and still not a word. Smh

    Come on, it'll now be "They're preparing for the roll out of a major faction and giving Dev interviews", etc. After all, how do they keep their tame "Game Changers" onside and selling the nerf if they don't selectively drive YouTube revenue to their channels (no, that isn't corrupting at all!) with special access, sandbox modes ,early access to content, etc.
    At the end, they'll still nerf Finn (instead of fixing the raid) and at the end, as a special concession, refund the zeta (for which the Game Changers will collectively swoon in adulation) and move on to which other characters they need to "rework" to stop them getting in the way of P2W content.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    @CG_TopHat , @CG_Carrie if this really about the Sith raids, why not nerf (oops "rework" is the term you prefer) Finn just in the STR? After all, you give NS & BH & heroic toons special buffs in the raids. Why not give zFinn teams your "rework" only in the STR? Solves the problem in the only area you say you have a problem with his abilities. Then all the work you've done for the "rework" isn't wasted either and we're ALL happy. Win-win!
  • KM1 wrote: »
    No, it's obviously pointless to argue with you since you're shilling. Just as the Rex lead takes advantage of giving TM to Wampa to help him and others go more often on crits, Just as zBarris heals the TM on crits, zFinn lead takes advantage of exposes to feed TM to resistance TMs. It's exactly the same type of mechanic. But as a wise man once said, you can't convince a man of something when his livelihood depends on believing the opposite.
    Breaking a 2 year old lead, which the Devs clearly stated (in writing) was working as intended and they had zero problems with (except in P3 of the HSTR) is not standard maintenance. It's both deceptive and dramatic overreaction. The community naturally assumes the reason was that it stood as a strong counter to upcoming P2P/P2W content. And I agree with the community
    Ah, yes. Now, it's going from I disagree with you therefore I don't understand to I disagree with you and therefore I am a shill, and ought be dismissed. It's not that I could possibly, as an informed and considered opinion, agree that closing infinite loops is good for the game.

    175% team turn meter gain for popping a bubble with another 55% for planting one is not remotely on the same scale as a Rex team gaining 45% total for the enemy critting you.

    You just desperately want to keep a toy that is obviously bad for the game. And no. No, Finn lead is not "destroyed." And Finn especially isn't destroyed. He's actually getting a kit and becoming a real and coherent character rather than a vehicle for an exploit, and I look forward to getting more content that meshes with new Finn.
    Still not a he.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »

    You just desperately want to keep a toy that is obviously bad for the game. And no. No, Finn lead is not "destroyed." And Finn especially isn't destroyed. He's actually getting a kit and becoming a real and coherent character rather than a vehicle for an exploit, and I look forward to getting more content that meshes with new Finn.

    If zFinn+3p0 would be so bad for the game, please explain to me why the top200 in arena are only Revan teams? Heck, those Revans even strech to the 500s.
    And if zFinn would only be bad for the health os STR p3, then why go to the trouble to completly change his kit instead of changing the "loop" mechanics. Not that it even is a loop considering expose can be resisted (which is exactly what they shouldve gone for by stacking up tenacity on a toppled Traya).

    And again,Raids have had one or more phases killed by a single team for a long time now, some even on autoplay. Why would solo'ing 1 phase of a 1 year old raid be such a problem?
  • FingolfinTEK
    21 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    KM1 wrote: »
    No, it's obviously pointless to argue with you since you're shilling. Just as the Rex lead takes advantage of giving TM to Wampa to help him and others go more often on crits, Just as zBarris heals the TM on crits, zFinn lead takes advantage of exposes to feed TM to resistance TMs. It's exactly the same type of mechanic. But as a wise man once said, you can't convince a man of something when his livelihood depends on believing the opposite.
    Breaking a 2 year old lead, which the Devs clearly stated (in writing) was working as intended and they had zero problems with (except in P3 of the HSTR) is not standard maintenance. It's both deceptive and dramatic overreaction. The community naturally assumes the reason was that it stood as a strong counter to upcoming P2P/P2W content. And I agree with the community
    Ah, yes. Now, it's going from I disagree with you therefore I don't understand to I disagree with you and therefore I am a shill, and ought be dismissed. It's not that I could possibly, as an informed and considered opinion, agree that closing infinite loops is good for the game.

    175% team turn meter gain for popping a bubble with another 55% for planting one is not remotely on the same scale as a Rex team gaining 45% total for the enemy critting you.

    You just desperately want to keep a toy that is obviously bad for the game. And no. No, Finn lead is not "destroyed." And Finn especially isn't destroyed. He's actually getting a kit and becoming a real and coherent character rather than a vehicle for an exploit, and I look forward to getting more content that meshes with new Finn.

    Gotta say I loathe when the forum discussions get to the point when people start pointing fingers and throwing personal insults...

    That being said, one thing is for sure - you're blowing up numbers to prove your point. 175% TM gain is only if you 5 pop exposes which happens how often? And while I agree that Finn lead provides much higher TM gains than Rex, by just solely focusing on the gain and not the conditions under which the gain is applied you obscure the fact that Rex lead is much more versatile than Finn and gains that TM more easily.

  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    I just saw that stacking tenacity like most wanted as a fix doesnt work because of cls lead that has been found to cause the same infinte loop P3 solo issues with an unskilled under geared c3po. The question I have is will cls leader zeta get redone too since it also breaks the raid same as zfin?

    We all know they have a general plan in place and know that things will become easier as time goes on. It is possible that they didnt want to change traya in that way because it makes her harder to get around in the future, or even destroys a current "plan" for a future add on that is designed with that phase in mind.
  • EA_Cian
    971 posts EA Staff (retired)
    Let's cool it with the dismissing of peoples' opinions as "shilling" and so on. Thanks. :smile:
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Hmmm work day is just about over and this thread is still engulfed in flames without so much as a peep from the devs on the matter.
    @CG_SBCrumb @CG_TopHat you’ve been given almost 30 pages of feedback. I’ll give you the TLDR.

    The majority hate the change to Finn, while the remaining few are still giving you the benefit of the doubt. They don’t trust your internal testing because it’s been wrong several times in recent memory. Absolutely nobody agrees with you not refunding zetas To his lead since you completely changed how it works when people invested in it.

    You have a true fix to the loop problem that’s been said scores of times here and on reddit. WHEN TRAYA IS TOPPLED ACTIVATE STACKING TENACITY ON HER PER DEBUFF/HIT SO THE EXPOSES ARE RESISTED AND THE LOOP BROKEN.

    It’s a much better fix and shows that this wasn’t at all about the teams hard counter to Revan. Just saying.

    i'm with you, but that stacking tenacity has been proven to create an infinite loop of its own with CLS lead.
  • Gotta say I loathe when the forum discussions get to the point when people start pointing fingers and throwing personal insults...

    That being said, one thing is for sure - you're blowing up numbers to prove your point. 175% TM gain is only if you 5 pop exposes which happens how often? And while I agree that Finn lead provides much higher TM gains than Rex, by just solely focusing on the gain and not the conditions under which the gain is applied you obscure the fact that Rex lead is much more versatile than Finn and gains that TM more easily.
    No, 175% per expose is the correct number.

    One expose grants 35% turn meter to five characters. 175%. 140% if you're using Sidious, Sabine, or IPD.

    That's why team TM gain mechanics tend to be much smaller than multi-target. 5% to the team per debuff end for Palp. 10% to the team per expose landed for JTR. Rex is one of the bigger ones at 15% (though out-of-faction gets 7.5%).

    And Finn gives 35% to the entire party, which is more than a turn for every Expose popped. That's way beyond any other team TM gain lead in the game. And it's not a hard condition to hit. Land an expose from any source and odds are RT is going next, to immediately pop that bubble, and probably reapply it while they're at it so you can do it again with Finn's takedown.

    Compare to new Finn. If you pop a bubble, every Resistance ally gains 3% per Resistance ally, and the target enemy loses 5% per Resistance ally. That's +15% to your team, and -25% to one enemy if they don't exist, which they probably won't because your team gets +60% potency. That's a total of +75% TM, -25% TM, for a net of 100% TM modulation. That's still huge. And RT still gets another 55% for exposes applied.

    There aren't many leads that offer more TM manipulation than that.

    And you can build a strong team around that. Resistance has eleven units. Two of them- Poe and Pilot- are bad. Poe has enough synergy to work well with new zFinn as a bubble planter, though I do hope he gets a rework in the wake of new Finn. New Finn looks to be a solid unit with a good kit. All three Resistance droids are great. Both Reys are great. Holdo is solid and useful tank. And Rose, despite the "Rose sucks" meme brings a lot to a team.

    So.

    Option A:

    zFinn, Poe, RT, R2, C-3PO.

    In this squad, every member can land expose (R2 through his basic thanks to 3PO). Every member can pop expose. One member (Poe) can land multiple expose. Four who can pop and land expose in the same move (R2 and RT basic, Finn Takedown, 3PO mass assist). One can land and pop expose to a single target multiple times in a single move (C3PO's mass assist calling RT and R2). One member who can pop expose on multiple targets (R2). You have a lot of expose going on, at 55% TM modulation for every expose applied (RT Unique) and 100% TM modulation for every expose popped (Finn lead). That is a solid lineup, and I look forward to seeing how it pans out.

    Main losses are 3PO from Rebels- slot in Obi, particularly under CLS's zeta lead- and R2 from JTR. The remaining Resistance members still make a solid lineup at double Rey, BB-8, Holdo, Rose. If you need more pre-TM on your BB-8, there are plenty of solid droids you can slot in who aren't spoken for by HK-47 or Grievous. Or pull L3 from the Qi'ra lineup and slot Mission back in. Maybe give Finn Holdo and bring back R2, at the expense of a pile of 3PO synergy.
    Still not a he.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Gotta say I loathe when the forum discussions get to the point when people start pointing fingers and throwing personal insults...

    That being said, one thing is for sure - you're blowing up numbers to prove your point. 175% TM gain is only if you 5 pop exposes which happens how often? And while I agree that Finn lead provides much higher TM gains than Rex, by just solely focusing on the gain and not the conditions under which the gain is applied you obscure the fact that Rex lead is much more versatile than Finn and gains that TM more easily.
    No, 175% per expose is the correct number.

    One expose grants 35% turn meter to five characters. 175%. 140% if you're using Sidious, Sabine, or IPD.

    That's why team TM gain mechanics tend to be much smaller than multi-target. 5% to the team per debuff end for Palp. 10% to the team per expose landed for JTR. Rex is one of the bigger ones at 15% (though out-of-faction gets 7.5%).

    And Finn gives 35% to the entire party, which is more than a turn for every Expose popped. That's way beyond any other team TM gain lead in the game. And it's not a hard condition to hit. Land an expose from any source and odds are RT is going next, to immediately pop that bubble, and probably reapply it while they're at it so you can do it again with Finn's takedown.

    Compare to new Finn. If you pop a bubble, every Resistance ally gains 3% per Resistance ally, and the target enemy loses 5% per Resistance ally. That's +15% to your team, and -25% to one enemy if they don't exist, which they probably won't because your team gets +60% potency. That's a total of +75% TM, -25% TM, for a net of 100% TM modulation. That's still huge. And RT still gets another 55% for exposes applied.

    There aren't many leads that offer more TM manipulation than that.

    And you can build a strong team around that. Resistance has eleven units. Two of them- Poe and Pilot- are bad. Poe has enough synergy to work well with new zFinn as a bubble planter, though I do hope he gets a rework in the wake of new Finn. New Finn looks to be a solid unit with a good kit. All three Resistance droids are great. Both Reys are great. Holdo is solid and useful tank. And Rose, despite the "Rose sucks" meme brings a lot to a team.

    So.

    Option A:

    zFinn, Poe, RT, R2, C-3PO.

    In this squad, every member can land expose (R2 through his basic thanks to 3PO). Every member can pop expose. One member (Poe) can land multiple expose. Four who can pop and land expose in the same move (R2 and RT basic, Finn Takedown, 3PO mass assist). One can land and pop expose to a single target multiple times in a single move (C3PO's mass assist calling RT and R2). One member who can pop expose on multiple targets (R2). You have a lot of expose going on, at 55% TM modulation for every expose applied (RT Unique) and 100% TM modulation for every expose popped (Finn lead). That is a solid lineup, and I look forward to seeing how it pans out.

    Main losses are 3PO from Rebels- slot in Obi, particularly under CLS's zeta lead- and R2 from JTR. The remaining Resistance members still make a solid lineup at double Rey, BB-8, Holdo, Rose. If you need more pre-TM on your BB-8, there are plenty of solid droids you can slot in who aren't spoken for by HK-47 or Grievous. Or pull L3 from the Qi'ra lineup and slot Mission back in. Maybe give Finn Holdo and bring back R2, at the expense of a pile of 3PO synergy.

    Yeah, it's such an easy condition to hit that Finn is dominating the arena. And his endless loop and infinite TM is just making him dominate 48 to 49 of the top arena squads. No, wait.... This is what is call fantasy crafting rather than theory crafting. Buyer beware.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Gotta say I loathe when the forum discussions get to the point when people start pointing fingers and throwing personal insults...

    That being said, one thing is for sure - you're blowing up numbers to prove your point. 175% TM gain is only if you 5 pop exposes which happens how often? And while I agree that Finn lead provides much higher TM gains than Rex, by just solely focusing on the gain and not the conditions under which the gain is applied you obscure the fact that Rex lead is much more versatile than Finn and gains that TM more easily.
    No, 175% per expose is the correct number.

    One expose grants 35% turn meter to five characters. 175%. 140% if you're using Sidious, Sabine, or IPD.

    That's why team TM gain mechanics tend to be much smaller than multi-target. 5% to the team per debuff end for Palp. 10% to the team per expose landed for JTR. Rex is one of the bigger ones at 15% (though out-of-faction gets 7.5%).

    And Finn gives 35% to the entire party, which is more than a turn for every Expose popped. That's way beyond any other team TM gain lead in the game. And it's not a hard condition to hit. Land an expose from any source and odds are RT is going next, to immediately pop that bubble, and probably reapply it while they're at it so you can do it again with Finn's takedown.

    Compare to new Finn. If you pop a bubble, every Resistance ally gains 3% per Resistance ally, and the target enemy loses 5% per Resistance ally. That's +15% to your team, and -25% to one enemy if they don't exist, which they probably won't because your team gets +60% potency. That's a total of +75% TM, -25% TM, for a net of 100% TM modulation. That's still huge. And RT still gets another 55% for exposes applied.

    There aren't many leads that offer more TM manipulation than that.

    And you can build a strong team around that. Resistance has eleven units. Two of them- Poe and Pilot- are bad. Poe has enough synergy to work well with new zFinn as a bubble planter, though I do hope he gets a rework in the wake of new Finn. New Finn looks to be a solid unit with a good kit. All three Resistance droids are great. Both Reys are great. Holdo is solid and useful tank. And Rose, despite the "Rose sucks" meme brings a lot to a team.

    So.

    Option A:

    zFinn, Poe, RT, R2, C-3PO.

    In this squad, every member can land expose (R2 through his basic thanks to 3PO). Every member can pop expose. One member (Poe) can land multiple expose. Four who can pop and land expose in the same move (R2 and RT basic, Finn Takedown, 3PO mass assist). One can land and pop expose to a single target multiple times in a single move (C3PO's mass assist calling RT and R2). One member who can pop expose on multiple targets (R2). You have a lot of expose going on, at 55% TM modulation for every expose applied (RT Unique) and 100% TM modulation for every expose popped (Finn lead). That is a solid lineup, and I look forward to seeing how it pans out.

    Main losses are 3PO from Rebels- slot in Obi, particularly under CLS's zeta lead- and R2 from JTR. The remaining Resistance members still make a solid lineup at double Rey, BB-8, Holdo, Rose. If you need more pre-TM on your BB-8, there are plenty of solid droids you can slot in who aren't spoken for by HK-47 or Grievous. Or pull L3 from the Qi'ra lineup and slot Mission back in. Maybe give Finn Holdo and bring back R2, at the expense of a pile of 3PO synergy.

    Except the top tier team is Revan, who is extremely fast and starts with tenacity up. I can’t see a Finn lead having a chance. The two primary reasons people were using Finn lead were to auto tank and counter Revan. Even if this a boost overall, the 2 primary uses have been nerfed. And of course nerfed right as a P2P version is being released.
  • FingolfinTEK
    21 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Gotta say I loathe when the forum discussions get to the point when people start pointing fingers and throwing personal insults...

    That being said, one thing is for sure - you're blowing up numbers to prove your point. 175% TM gain is only if you 5 pop exposes which happens how often? And while I agree that Finn lead provides much higher TM gains than Rex, by just solely focusing on the gain and not the conditions under which the gain is applied you obscure the fact that Rex lead is much more versatile than Finn and gains that TM more easily.
    No, 175% per expose is the correct number.

    One expose grants 35% turn meter to five characters. 175%. 140% if you're using Sidious, Sabine, or IPD.

    That's why team TM gain mechanics tend to be much smaller than multi-target. 5% to the team per debuff end for Palp. 10% to the team per expose landed for JTR. Rex is one of the bigger ones at 15% (though out-of-faction gets 7.5%).

    And Finn gives 35% to the entire party, which is more than a turn for every Expose popped. That's way beyond any other team TM gain lead in the game. And it's not a hard condition to hit. Land an expose from any source and odds are RT is going next, to immediately pop that bubble, and probably reapply it while they're at it so you can do it again with Finn's takedown.

    Compare to new Finn. If you pop a bubble, every Resistance ally gains 3% per Resistance ally, and the target enemy loses 5% per Resistance ally. That's +15% to your team, and -25% to one enemy if they don't exist, which they probably won't because your team gets +60% potency. That's a total of +75% TM, -25% TM, for a net of 100% TM modulation. That's still huge. And RT still gets another 55% for exposes applied.

    There aren't many leads that offer more TM manipulation than that.

    And you can build a strong team around that. Resistance has eleven units. Two of them- Poe and Pilot- are bad. Poe has enough synergy to work well with new zFinn as a bubble planter, though I do hope he gets a rework in the wake of new Finn. New Finn looks to be a solid unit with a good kit. All three Resistance droids are great. Both Reys are great. Holdo is solid and useful tank. And Rose, despite the "Rose sucks" meme brings a lot to a team.

    So.

    Option A:

    zFinn, Poe, RT, R2, C-3PO.

    In this squad, every member can land expose (R2 through his basic thanks to 3PO). Every member can pop expose. One member (Poe) can land multiple expose. Four who can pop and land expose in the same move (R2 and RT basic, Finn Takedown, 3PO mass assist). One can land and pop expose to a single target multiple times in a single move (C3PO's mass assist calling RT and R2). One member who can pop expose on multiple targets (R2). You have a lot of expose going on, at 55% TM modulation for every expose applied (RT Unique) and 100% TM modulation for every expose popped (Finn lead). That is a solid lineup, and I look forward to seeing how it pans out.

    Main losses are 3PO from Rebels- slot in Obi, particularly under CLS's zeta lead- and R2 from JTR. The remaining Resistance members still make a solid lineup at double Rey, BB-8, Holdo, Rose. If you need more pre-TM on your BB-8, there are plenty of solid droids you can slot in who aren't spoken for by HK-47 or Grievous. Or pull L3 from the Qi'ra lineup and slot Mission back in. Maybe give Finn Holdo and bring back R2, at the expense of a pile of 3PO synergy.

    Lol, summing TM gains for the whole team? Really? There's a reason why people use per-character bonuses, the sum tells you nothing of any particular use and also nothing that per-character gains don't already tell you.

    The main reason that those other teams have smaller TM gains is simple - they're much more reliable. EP makes the team more potent and he has Vader that's insanely fast and that initially feeds 15-20% TM to the whole team. JTR, BB8 and the rest of that team are all naturally fast and also have other means of gaining TM other than the lead which btw also applies to CLS Rebels who had CLS's unique and their counters as the engine and they're also much faster than Finn Resistance. Notice the trend?

    HK droids, the largest single-target TM gain in the game that probably has the easiest activation condition, are in the same spot as Finn - they have one fast character that's meant to jump-start the TM train but the way forward is risky, especially if you look the traditional Finn teams - they're all low on Potency, most of them have RNG-based way of applying exposes plus aside from Poe they're pretty slow and squishy. Before 3PO you'd attack a team with a pretaunter and if Poe didn't appy an expose to the said tank, it was usually GG for you. Talk about an easy condition to hit :) Sidious, Sabine, Nest, none of them made Finn a killing machine, they only gave the teams a fighting chance and victory never came easily. Like I previously mentioned already, even 3PO doesn't make Finn teams an ultimate offensive tool, there's plenty of teams that are hard for it to beat, not only the Revan meta.

    The new Finn lead tries to compensate the loss of TM bonus per pop with bigger reliability in applying exposes via potency buff but the failure mode lies in the fact that aside from Poe, who's fast and a but less unreliable, the rest are still slow and squishy or lack a consistent way to apply exposes. TM manipulations that you talk about won't help you if you never get to take a turn, which you won't against most of the teams that Finn used to be able to beat, even with the lineups that you suggest, (that would also compromise great teams)
    Post edited by FingolfinTEK on
  • qfwm2001 wrote: »
    @Kyno Can you point me to where the devs have posted that zFinn lead will still be able to solo HAAT? I saw tophat mention that zFinn lead would still be solid in phase 2,3,4 but no specific mention of it still being able to solo HAAT. Thanks in advance. Secondly, I always appreciate your chill when everyone else around you is losing it. Especially since we have not even had a chance to use zFinn with the changes in place yet.

    come on dude, you just put newFinn, JTR, bb8, RT and c3 and afrouce they will solo haat, they all reduce TM for p1 and 3. Only phase that might possibly pose a problem will be P2 but that's more mods than anything since team will be gaining a lot of TM. Its not going to be an auto deal you will have to manual echo chamber that 2yr raid for 40mins (most likely) but its pretty logical that the new kit can do it...So can JTR.

    @YaeVizla you either don't have a zFinn or are CG employee or a troll. Probably all 3. shame on you!

    Edited for language. - EA_Cian

    I was more interested in where the information is coming from than anything else. My current gp is 100K short of 4 mil, I have multiple teams that can solo HAAT that do not include zfinn. Some players do not and may be wondering if it is still doable since tophat said cg would leave the solo of haat alone. Kyno has stated multiple times that haat solo will still be possible, but has not cited a source for this info.

    No question the team you mentioned will easily handle haat. I am definitely not on the "CG ruined my life" bandwagon. Resistance faction is one of my favorites and I while I really don't like the decrease in TM gain, I look forward to learning how to work with the new Zfinn lead.
  • SmilinStonee
    195 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    This is showing that you(CG)value the spreadsheets you show EA every quarter more than the people who actually contribute to you being successful. Your PR departments clearly shows lack of understanding for the game mechanics and its obvious in decisions and changes introduced. Public statements made by your studio employees regarding this issue are now proven false, not even retracted or revised - thus making you liars.

    You created content (C3Po), failed to properly test the mechanics of it, and you are now punishing the players for YOUR mistakes. You do this by repackaging ZFinn to counter-suit a poorly planned raid(STR), poorly planned content (C3Po). This repackaging also creates a further demand for P2W content(GG+Co) in order to counter the stage4 cancer that is Arena full of Revans. This is borderline**racketeering.

    The least you can do is bite the bullet and refund us the Zeta cost of ZFinns leadership ability. That bit of spending is absolutely required of you(EA+CG) otherwise this game is on a path from which it will never recover.

    EDIT: Borderline**
  • If we can separate for a moment the development team (who is not community facing) from CG_Carrie, CG_SBCrumb and CG_TopHat, who are community facing and we will refer to as the “CG Triumvirate”, let’s acknowledge that the developers have a well thought out and nuanced rework that has made the best of a bad situation.

    For the development team, as a community we appreciate the work you’ve put in to what is an ever evolving game in both scale and complexity. We wouldn’t enjoy this game if not for your efforts.

    For the CG Triumvirate, please be reminded this is not a fickle player base that can be influenced to join or leave the game based on professionally sponsored Twitch streamers. We are Star Wars fans and many of us have been loyally playing this game for 3 years. Loops are unintended and a consequence of the growing complexity, most of the player base gets it even if they don’t like it. Speaking to the decision not to refund the zeta this is wrong for the following reasons:

    1. You already set a precedent with Old Daka. We accepted that we couldn’t exploit a raid breaking strategy and you did the right thing and freed up her zeta.
    2. Zetas are generally earned by building up your Executrix, 7* Wicket and Talzin, working on your roster to achieve better results in Territory Wars or Grand Arena or improving your ships to gain more fleet store currency. The beauty of zetas is their rarity and the fact that you have to earn them. While no doubt you have put together a compelling rework of Finn you’ve gone an entire step further than Daka and reworked the original Finn zeta out of existence. Quite simply, one of the most limited resources in the game which govern entire roster building arcs for some players has been retroactively changed. Had this ability been the choice for Finn at the time his zeta first came out many of us would have chosen to zeta some else.
    3. Please look at this in the context of the overall roadmap. You are continuing to release compelling content that we are enjoying and not all of us want to have to work on gearing up elements of an old faction that will not likely get new content until the new movie is released. I cannot speak for everyone but as an occasional spender I am far more likely to buy a Droideka marquee pack or crystals to farm the Separatist Droids with an extra zeta in tow that I rightfully earned.

    For the CG Triumvirate we implore you to reconsider this decision on behalf of your loyal player base who have enjoyed this game for several years. It is understood that there are changes that need to be made for the health of the game but not when you write a zeta ability out of existence like this.
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    3525 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    I've stepped back a bit from this to think about it, and try to see both sides. To that end, I have a few thoughts. I understand not wanting to set a precedent about zeta refunds. But, that only reduces the trust players have or had in the studios ability to supply a stable game. I understand the devs are under a deadline to bring out new heroes, especially when the meta can shift in a heartbeat. Once again, players can lose faith and in return are less likely to spend more than time in game because they see their actual investments as a waste of money. Unless this game was developed with a shelf date, and you expected all this to happen, this cannot be conducive to a strong bottom line. HoDA is all but dead. Most of the leaders I know from there have either quit or are just marking time. You used the same philosophy there and well, case in point.

    So why am I doing my Captain Obvious impersonation? Because I hope, that something can be thought of and help both sides. I lead 2 guilds now, and I see the effect of some "changes" and can't just say "Oh well, what can you do?". To quote Jean Luc Picard.. "There comes a time Sir, when men of good conscious.." Okay you get the point. I wish we could open a real dialogue here, and not just get lip service and pat answers that have no bearing on anything. You say you want open communication, surely some trolls have not scared you off. If so, wow are you working in the wrong medium.

    My two cents, at least I know I tried. Oh it should be added my Finn does NOT have a zeta so I have no personal interest in the refund.
  • This is why i haven't seriously bothered building sith raid teams. The raid is the definition of unfun but as soon as a team shows up that the devs didnt intend to do well it gets nerfed.
  • EA_Cian wrote: »
    Let's cool it with the dismissing of peoples' opinions as "shilling" and so on. Thanks. :smile:

    Let's get an actual official response from the team at CG that shows they are listening to the playerbase. Thanks. :)

    Maybe the team could explain a few things such as: Why they refuse to give a zeta refund when the ability is clearly drastically altered compared to the original zeta. Or why chaning Finn is the route to take when a similar team using a CLS lead can also solo P3...

    If another team has already appeared that uses the same strategy doesn't that illustrate that the issue isn't actually with Finn but with the raid itself? (We all know the issue is with 3PO but since he was considered a P2P character you guys cant change his kit... Which is fine, but just admit that..)

    Some transparency from the team at CG would be nice. Posting a major change like this on a Friday is really a poor move if no one would be responding to any of our concerns till Monday at the earliest. Even with that being said it is now Wednesday and you guys haven't updated us on anything. Did you actually want our feedback on the proposed change? Or was that just to make the playerbase feel that their opinion matters when really it doesn't.

    This is a great game and I have spent many hours and many hundreds of dollars on it over the past couple of years. Some respect to the community during times like these would be much appreciated.

    @CG_Carrie @CG_TopHat @CG_SBCrumb
This discussion has been closed.