Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • Madlax
    119 posts Member
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    The nerf will happen after the C3PO event. They want to rake in everyone’s money who doesn’t follow forums before they crap on them.

    Very unlikely that people who dont follow the community would figure out the zFinn-3P0 interaction.
  • Madlax
    119 posts Member
    dominiQC wrote: »
    I think 90% of the community agrees that with the current interaction between C3P0 and Finn things had to be changed.

    Uhm where do you come up with this number? From what I see you have a small number that wants this change and a very large majority who is against it.
    To recap, those are the arguments against the change:
    zFinn isnt meta but can beat Revan, his lead doesnt break the arena so why change it
    zFinn can solo hAAT - its an old and boring raid, so what.. + CG said thats fine
    zFinn can solo p3 hSTR (if you put tons of potency mods) - its 1 phase in a year-old raid, a raid that is a pain in the butt, also most guilds dont even do hSTR yet
  • Ravens1113
    4749 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Don’t waste your time with Vizsla. No matter what data, stats or common customer service examples your bring to him he will only focus on what can be twisted to fit an apologetic narrative for CG.

    Everyone here besides him so far I’ve seen agrees the zeta for his lead should be refunded. It’s mixed as far as how his new kit will be and those that either are excited, curious or flat out hate the rework. However I’ve seen only him say that we don’t deserve a refund on the materials even though the lead and ability are being completely changed from what we invested in.

    Hey YaeVizsla while I have your attention, wanna come up with an excuse why the devs have failed to live up to their promise of having Q&A sessions with the community about happenings in the game? How about why they haven’t come up with a replacement for the monthly crystal subscription that they abruptly ended. They did promise to give us something to replace it but...you know nothing in over a year.
    I am not a "him," and it is rude to presume online.

    And if that is what you believe that is my opinion on the refund, and that I am alone in holding it, then you are not paying attention.

    I have made little comment on the refund. And I certainly have not said that they should not do it. But they are under no compulsion- legal or moral- to do so. And I am one of several to voice that opinion in this thread.

    Most of my discussion in this thread is on the necessity of the rework based on the inherent brokenness of the current version, that the lead still has value if it doesn't infinite loop Revan to death, and that the new lead still looks formidable.

    As to your other question, there are no excuses required. They made no promises. They stated their plans at the time. Plans change. You are free to be annoyed, but no promise was broken.

    Rude of me to assume a gender when I’m speaking to you through an online forum.... umm ok. If that offends you then you’ve got a lot of problems in life. All I can think about now is that trans chick from GameStop. ITS MAAM!

    Anyway...
    You’re right, legally they aren’t under any obligation to. Morally? You are joking right? Morality is hand in hand with profitability. You begin to make unethical and immoral decisions that ring your customers dry, you won’t have customers for much longer. So in the interest of their bottom line, it would behoove them to make the morally right choice, and refund the zeta since they completely changed how the lead works.

    As for their other PROMISES. Yeah they actually did break them. Go back to the Q&A section of the RyDiggs Meltdown. Almost a year ago. Carrie specifically said that in the interest of better communication they will be holding those Q&A sessions every so often to address the concerns of the community. Did they promise how often? No. But they did say periodically they would hold em. Yeah it’s been a year since then...

    Also they did promise something to replace the crystal monthly subscription...and yet here we are, with nothing in its stead. Still wondering how there are any sponsors or contracts though since it wasn’t Apple or google exclusive and was an in game purchase for all. Now is it something CG can’t control and EA won’t allow? If that’s so, say something about it. Say “hey we know we said we would get something to replace this but as of now we have nothing.” Say something. Anything. The exact opposite that they’re doing right now.
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    So you want to try him out as an ally and not a leader, even though you used the zeta on his leader? That shows exactly why people are complaining that his kit was reworked but his zeta was nerfed to oblivion
    If believe his lead is being "nerfed into oblivion," you have no perspective.

    No, it won't be able to infinite loop Revan into the ground. But the new lead is still looking to be one of the stronger manually-controlled leads in the game. 100% TM swing per bubble popped with cooldown reduction and +60% to three key stats is a big deal. There are a lot of relevant teams that can fare well against.

    Using Finn in P1 hSith is a valid thought. It is not, however, the only use for Finn.

    But again, not the lead I bought with my zeta mats. Let me make that decision. Because I don’t believe as you do that it’s going to be that strong. It doesn’t look like a zeta I would have prioritized given my goals and teams.

    I don’t know where you’re pulling that 100% TM swing from. Max effect is resistance allies +15% TM and single target -25%, for a net swing of 40% vs one target, IF the removal hits. That’s opposed to 35% swing versus all targets previously. Are you trying to pull some funky math and account for everyone’s TM gain to get a 75% gain/25% removal? If so, then the full apples to apples comparison would be to a 175% Tm swing under current lead, so we’re looking at a 43% reduction. And that’s versus ALL targets, not a single, for an added benefit that we’re losing.

    Don’t waste your time with Vizsla. No matter what data, stats or common customer service examples your bring to him he will only focus on what can be twisted to fit an apologetic narrative for CG.

    Everyone here besides him so far I’ve seen agrees the zeta for his lead should be refunded. It’s mixed as far as how his new kit will be and those that either are excited, curious or flat out hate the rework. However I’ve seen only him say that we don’t deserve a refund on the materials even though the lead and ability are being completely changed from what we invested in.

    Hey YaeVizsla while I have your attention, wanna come up with an excuse why the devs have failed to live up to their promise of having Q&A sessions with the community about happenings in the game? How about why they haven’t come up with a replacement for the monthly crystal subscription that they abruptly ended. They did promise to give us something to replace it but...you know nothing in over a year.

    Just an FYI, they cant replace it with anything similar due to partner agreements that a "subscription" like that would violate. Not to say they are not looking at alternatives, but it's not that easy.

    Also, I see no reason they shouldnt refund the lead zeta. They stated for Zarriss they did the refund due to changing the description of the zeta to match the actions they were changing in game. I would think this also follows that same line of reasoning.

    So Kyno is on board with the refund too. Good. Like I said before. It’s a constant discussion on what this rework will do. Some are excited, others are fine with wait and see and others hate it. But almost everyone thinks, besides you @YaeVizsla and maybe a couple others that they don’t have to return the zeta. Do they HAVE TO, no. But should they? You better believe they should if they don’t want a financial blow back on this from their player base.
  • Vohbo wrote: »
    I think after 77 days of the world not crashing down, there is no really good reason to still go through with this silly nerf. No one really wants it. The Sith raid is bad and guilds will handle in their own ranks how 3PO is dealt with.
    For the 95% of guilds that can't do heroic sith, this might be a way to finally get through it. So why go through with it ?

    Quotes that literally no one has ever said in this game ever.

    Revan owners : "Ugh, I hate 1% of zFinn teams occupying arena and wrecking them on auto when they cross my path. I much prefer fighting Revan 150+ times a month instead and having many of those fights end in a draw. I cant wait until zFinn is no longer able to take out Revan teams for me anymore so that I can go back to getting speed blocked out of the top 50.

    zFinn/c3po owners : "I really cant wait until zFinn is fixed so that I can go back to running Greedomix and Deathstorm 50 times in a year old raid's most miserable phase. I'm especially looking forward to having to slog my way through 30 minutes of manual labor in another raid that's almost 2 1/2 years old. Most of all, I'm relieved to finally have a 20th counter to GK lead in my roster just in case the guild court jester accidentally puts GK as leader instead of Bastilla in TW. Most importantly, zFinn had no business countering Revan with the power of potency. The only fair way to counter Revan is not at all and I really respect the developers decision to take that choice away from me. <3
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    Dhuriya24 wrote: »
    Vohbo wrote: »
    I think after 77 days of the world not crashing down, there is no really good reason to still go through with this silly nerf. No one really wants it. The Sith raid is bad and guilds will handle in their own ranks how 3PO is dealt with.
    For the 95% of guilds that can't do heroic sith, this might be a way to finally get through it. So why go through with it ?

    Quotes that literally no one has ever said in this game ever.

    Revan owners : "Ugh, I hate 1% of zFinn teams occupying arena and wrecking them on auto when they cross my path. I much prefer fighting Revan 150+ times a month instead and having many of those fights end in a draw. I cant wait until zFinn is no longer able to take out Revan teams for me anymore so that I can go back to getting speed blocked out of the top 50.

    zFinn/c3po owners : "I really cant wait until zFinn is fixed so that I can go back to running Greedomix and Deathstorm 50 times in a year old raid's most miserable phase. I'm especially looking forward to having to slog my way through 30 minutes of manual labor in another raid that's almost 2 1/2 years old. Most of all, I'm relieved to finally have a 20th counter to GK lead in my roster just in case the guild court jester accidentally puts GK as leader instead of Bastilla in TW. Most importantly, zFinn had no business countering Revan with the power of potency. The only fair way to counter Revan is not at all and I really respect the developers decision to take that choice away from me. <3

    :D:D:D

    Truth be told this new infusion on 3p0s will certainly allow a lot of guilds struggling to beat HSTR to finally do it. Even without running Finn3p0, the golden god can be very useful in p3.

    My guild only started beating HSTR after 3p0 came out - we got only 3 of them at 7s - and it was not due to zFinn. Granted, we were on the cusp of beating it before the event, so he was the straw that broke the camel's back for us.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Also, I see no reason they shouldnt refund the lead zeta. They stated for Zarriss they did the refund due to changing the description of the zeta to match the actions they were changing in game. I would think this also follows that same line of reasoning.

    This exactly, as well as the Daka refund. Which is why I find it so confusing that they would point blank state that they do not intend to refund the zeta when they posted the changes. One, it doesn’t fit precedent, two, why not leave the door open and evaluate the feedback. I hope that’s what they’re doing, but it wasn’t how it was phrased in the initial post.

    They're obviously going to just throw something along the lines of "after listening to feedback, we've decided to re-evaluate the zeta refund policy for Finn and have decided it's in everyone's best interest to have their zeta materials back and decide for themself if they want to take advantage of the new abilities we have given Finn's leadership ability"

    They want to make themselves look like the good guy in all this and finally deflect some of their atrocious PR to one good thing they have done recently


    ....Or they know that they will eventually have to implement new reworks as new power creeped toons come out where more nerfs will be necessary and want to completely change the precedent to not allowing refunds

    Yeah, it's probably their master plan. And the game changers (who depend on CG exclusivity for their YouTube living) will sell it as CG "listening to the community". And they hope we'll all forget they just massively nerfed a lead they said they had no problem with except in P3 of the Sith raid.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    edited March 2019
    Ikky2win wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ikky2win wrote: »
    They originally announced a change on December 17, 2018 (literally last year). It has been 77 days. 77 days!! That is ridiculous. Asinine. People are waiting to see how this pans out to make decisions on gearing, zetas, what to do for sith raid, what to do for tank, what to do for arena/GA/TW. Until we can actually see how his kit performs in various areas, we can’t make those decisions. 77 days is a ridiculous amount of time to implement these changes. More than 2.5 months and counting and it’s still not implemented? That’s just incompetence. I realize other things are going on with the game so one could reasonably understand a 2 week delay, maybe 3, maybe even a month, but 77+ days??

    In that 77+ day period we recieved an update that they had a fix but didnt like the way it performed.

    Every time something comes up, we see complaints when they make rushed fixes and now we have them when they make them more thoughtfully. They will never be able to make the choice everyone wants, maybe we can all just learn to relax, maybe go out and find something we all love to do..... like play a starwars game or something.

    I think our standards might be a weeeee bit low if giving 1 or 2 updates in 77 days is all we expect. Listen, I treat CG and this game like any other company I deal with. I would never put up with this from any other company where I pay for a service, yet we’re expected to have a different standard for CG. The only difference is I can’t go somewhere else. If my bank had this kind of customer service I would change banks. I don’t have any choice but to put up with CGs ineptitude because there isn’t another Star Wars game out there I can switch to. I think it’s totally reasonable, as a paying customer, to express my displeasure at the way things are being run. To use the bank example again, you would have no problem with me sending an email to my bank expressing my displeasure, would you Kyno ? Why is this different?

    IMO, if my bank was handling things and I felt the way you are writing, my money would be under my mattress.

    I was not saying that you shouldnt express yourself, but (and this is said as someone who is invested here like many others) if you feel that way, you do have options. This is not a bank, it's a mobile game. If they are not living up to your standards or in the cases of some who posts here even worse, then maybe it's time to step back and gain perspective on the situation.

    People tend to blame the dev team for the toxicity here, but I'm not sure how many realize that it's what we bring to the table that spoils the mood.

    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I am not trying to single you out or blame you, your post is not as toxic as many, but it is pretty disrespectful and not too constructive.

    As always I will get flamed for this, but as many know I'm not too shy about expressing how I feel.
    No I dont feel that telling us something will change, and giving one update over 78 days, then telling us what the change is and stating it will be in the next 2 weeks, but cant promise, is anything too crazy.

    It's not a simple fix, and there was time off and other small things in that time period.

    Would I have appreciated more communication, 100% yes. Do I expect them to come here and update us when they know something, yes, and I believe they did.

    Do I think people could have made choices based off the information they had, yes. Do I think knowing this change 2 weeks or a month earlier would have changed anything, no.
    Post edited by Kyno on
  • Firebrigade
    822 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I mean, some of that’s a chicken and egg sort of thing. I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to. That’s on top of the fact that we’re apparently more likely to get an open dialogue on reddit than we are in the official forum, which boggles the mind (or news breaking on other partner sites). If communication occurred *here* and *more often* it would probably go a long way towards diffusing some of the tension. Would there still be some toxic and angry people? Sure, it’s the internet. But I think in general we’d see more rational discussion like we did in Carrie’s reddit thread.
  • HarryTDF
    417 posts Member
    Madlax wrote: »
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    The nerf will happen after the C3PO event. They want to rake in everyone’s money who doesn’t follow forums before they crap on them.

    Very unlikely that people who dont follow the community would figure out the zFinn-3P0 interaction.

    Don’t know about that. A lot of guys watch YouTube videos on how to do but don’t follow this stuff. I think you would be surprised.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I mean, some of that’s a chicken and egg sort of thing. I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to. That’s on top of the fact that we’re apparently more likely to get an open dialogue on reddit than we are in the official forum, which boggles the mind (or news breaking on other partner sites). If communication occurred *here* and *more often* it would probably go a long way towards diffusing some of the tension. Would there still be some toxic and angry people? Sure, it’s the internet. But I think in general we’d see more rational discussion like we did in Carrie’s reddit thread.

    I dont see it as chicken and egg. I know it may sound surprising, but anyone can be thoughtful and constructive and not make a post that is just calling people names, questioning thier ability to do a job, or any other off topic comments, and still be upset about a topic or have very strong feeling one way or the other. It's not magic.

    Being rational in a conversation is a choice, not a reaction.

    I'm not saying people should have strong feelings, we have all sunk chunks of time and/or $$ into this and we all want things to be good/better. That doesnt mean we all can't speak intelligently and constructively about things we dont like or want to see changed (or not changed).

    I will get off my soap box now, sorry for my little rant. Flame on.
  • So are they still doing this? I’ve seen CLS teams with C3PO doing well in phase 3. Is it that the Finn change won’t be enough or they had issues testing it?
  • StarSon
    6207 posts Member
    So are they still doing this? I’ve seen CLS teams with C3PO doing well in phase 3. Is it that the Finn change won’t be enough or they had issues testing it?

    Supposedly. But 3 weeks ago TopHat said it would be done by last week. And last update they just said "in a future update" so who knows.

    As for the CLS thing, that's actually the opposite issue, in which low potency/high tenacity is what you want. The discovery of that team could be why they haven't pushed the Finn changes yet.
  • Drazhar
    784 posts Member
    So are they still doing this? I’ve seen CLS teams with C3PO doing well in phase 3. Is it that the Finn change won’t be enough or they had issues testing it?

    They didn't test it at all, like it happened with the last nerfs made just for the HSTR.
  • Madlax
    119 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    Madlax wrote: »
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    The nerf will happen after the C3PO event. They want to rake in everyone’s money who doesn’t follow forums before they crap on them.

    Very unlikely that people who dont follow the community would figure out the zFinn-3P0 interaction.

    Don’t know about that. A lot of guys watch YouTube videos on how to do but don’t follow this stuff. I think you would be surprised.

    Yea maybe.. I just had a clanmate advising another to zeta Finns lead for the next JTR event and I was like "stoooooppp!" ^^
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I mean, some of that’s a chicken and egg sort of thing. I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to. That’s on top of the fact that we’re apparently more likely to get an open dialogue on reddit than we are in the official forum, which boggles the mind (or news breaking on other partner sites). If communication occurred *here* and *more often* it would probably go a long way towards diffusing some of the tension. Would there still be some toxic and angry people? Sure, it’s the internet. But I think in general we’d see more rational discussion like we did in Carrie’s reddit thread.

    I dont see it as chicken and egg. I know it may sound surprising, but anyone can be thoughtful and constructive and not make a post that is just calling people names, questioning thier ability to do a job, or any other off topic comments, and still be upset about a topic or have very strong feeling one way or the other. It's not magic.

    Being rational in a conversation is a choice, not a reaction.

    I'm not saying people should have strong feelings, we have all sunk chunks of time and/or $$ into this and we all want things to be good/better. That doesnt mean we all can't speak intelligently and constructively about things we dont like or want to see changed (or not changed).

    I will get off my soap box now, sorry for my little rant. Flame on.

    You can’t neglect how history and a pattern of behaviors can affect other people. Most people, myself included, can only take so much of something (like poor communication) before developing an adverse reaction. We have sayings like “the straw that broke the camels back” for a reason. Normally gregarious and rational people can become irrational through repeated abuse. You may take issue with the use of the term abuse here, but “silent treatment” and “gaslighting” are textbook examples of psychological abuse, and I would definitely make the argument that those tactics have played out here, whether intentional or not.
  • StarSon
    6207 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to.

    Cases in point: TopHat last updated on the Finn change 3 weeks ago. Where is it? Is it happening? What's going on? Who knows?

    Their "community manager" hasn't replied to any threads since Thursday. Yeah, he's really "managing" us, eh?

    And now we have yet another p3 solo team. Silence. They have claimed time and again that they want to improve communication, but they don't actually follow through. It's extremely frustrating, and I no longer believe they actually care.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I mean, some of that’s a chicken and egg sort of thing. I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to. That’s on top of the fact that we’re apparently more likely to get an open dialogue on reddit than we are in the official forum, which boggles the mind (or news breaking on other partner sites). If communication occurred *here* and *more often* it would probably go a long way towards diffusing some of the tension. Would there still be some toxic and angry people? Sure, it’s the internet. But I think in general we’d see more rational discussion like we did in Carrie’s reddit thread.

    I dont see it as chicken and egg. I know it may sound surprising, but anyone can be thoughtful and constructive and not make a post that is just calling people names, questioning thier ability to do a job, or any other off topic comments, and still be upset about a topic or have very strong feeling one way or the other. It's not magic.

    Being rational in a conversation is a choice, not a reaction.

    I'm not saying people should have strong feelings, we have all sunk chunks of time and/or $$ into this and we all want things to be good/better. That doesnt mean we all can't speak intelligently and constructively about things we dont like or want to see changed (or not changed).

    I will get off my soap box now, sorry for my little rant. Flame on.

    You can’t neglect how history and a pattern of behaviors can affect other people. Most people, myself included, can only take so much of something (like poor communication) before developing an adverse reaction. We have sayings like “the straw that broke the camels back” for a reason. Normally gregarious and rational people can become irrational through repeated abuse. You may take issue with the use of the term abuse here, but “silent treatment” and “gaslighting” are textbook examples of psychological abuse, and I would definitely make the argument that those tactics have played out here, whether intentional or not.

    If you are doing something that you picked up as enjoyment or for fun, and are feeling that your only recourse is be "abusive" and "uncivilized" (for lack of better general terms) due to the feelings you are expressing, again, maybe its time to step back, take a breath and gain some perspective on the situation.

    IMO, to call those "tactics" means you are saying they are intentional. I wouldnt consider them "tactics" as they are more just the general outside view of a bureaucratic process, not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.

    As always we can agree to disagree, I dont want to lead this thread off topic. Sorry.
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch and we expect the community to push him even further, we have no intention of refunding the zeta associated with him. We look forward to your feedback on this proposed change.

    41 pages, basically because of this. They want Finn back to his pre-3p0 status, not how we have him now, with 3p0, even though they said he was WAI with 3p0.

    So, either Finn is WAI or he is not.

    If he is WAI, than why rework him at all? Just change the raid mechanic, add 1% tm per hit on topple and move on, loop over and no CLS or any other loop either.

    Now, if Finn is not WAI with 3p0, even though they did say he was, just refund the zeta.

    It would be really nice to have someone in charge come in here and say something, anything, really.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I mean, some of that’s a chicken and egg sort of thing. I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to. That’s on top of the fact that we’re apparently more likely to get an open dialogue on reddit than we are in the official forum, which boggles the mind (or news breaking on other partner sites). If communication occurred *here* and *more often* it would probably go a long way towards diffusing some of the tension. Would there still be some toxic and angry people? Sure, it’s the internet. But I think in general we’d see more rational discussion like we did in Carrie’s reddit thread.

    I dont see it as chicken and egg. I know it may sound surprising, but anyone can be thoughtful and constructive and not make a post that is just calling people names, questioning thier ability to do a job, or any other off topic comments, and still be upset about a topic or have very strong feeling one way or the other. It's not magic.

    Being rational in a conversation is a choice, not a reaction.

    I'm not saying people should have strong feelings, we have all sunk chunks of time and/or $$ into this and we all want things to be good/better. That doesnt mean we all can't speak intelligently and constructively about things we dont like or want to see changed (or not changed).

    I will get off my soap box now, sorry for my little rant. Flame on.

    You can’t neglect how history and a pattern of behaviors can affect other people. Most people, myself included, can only take so much of something (like poor communication) before developing an adverse reaction. We have sayings like “the straw that broke the camels back” for a reason. Normally gregarious and rational people can become irrational through repeated abuse. You may take issue with the use of the term abuse here, but “silent treatment” and “gaslighting” are textbook examples of psychological abuse, and I would definitely make the argument that those tactics have played out here, whether intentional or not.

    If you are doing something that you picked up as enjoyment or for fun, and are feeling that your only recourse is be "abusive" and "uncivilized" (for lack of better general terms) due to the feelings you are expressing, again, maybe its time to step back, take a breath and gain some perspective on the situation.

    IMO, to call those "tactics" means you are saying they are intentional. I wouldnt consider them "tactics" as they are more just the general outside view of a bureaucratic process, not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.

    As always we can agree to disagree, I dont want to lead this thread off topic. Sorry.

    You’re right, tactics wasn’t the right word and I actually spent quite a bit of time deliberating over that word specifically and failed to come up with a better option. I thought “action”, but in this case it’s just as much about what you don’t do as it is what you do, so that didn’t seem to fit. Maybe “effect” would be better, but it didn’t come to me in the moment. So chalk that up to my limited vocabulary, but disregarding that specific word you seem to get my point.

    I’m not suggesting that people are making a conscious decision to be abusive or uncivilized but rather that they’re ending up in a compromised mental state that makes it easier slip into actions like that without recognizing that they’re doing it. I don’t want to excuse it, just trying to point out that it’s an environment that’s been created through fault by both sides here.

    Telling someone to take a step back and re-evaluate their priorities is also not a full answer to the problem. Some people are passionate about the game, whether that’s appropriate or not is not for you to decide, and passion can manifest in different ways.

    Highlighting one more part from your and the following post:
    not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.
    It would be really nice to have someone in charge come in here and say something, anything, really.

    Here’s the answer. If they had popped in once, twice, over the last however many days (17?) and just said “We hear you. We’re evaluating your feedback and will see what we can do to incorporate it. We expect to be able to provide more information in (x days).” Then I, and I’m sure many of the people here, would be in a much better place.
  • Madlax wrote: »
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    The nerf will happen after the C3PO event. They want to rake in everyone’s money who doesn’t follow forums before they crap on them.

    Very unlikely that people who dont follow the community would figure out the zFinn-3P0 interaction.

    What are you talking about? It's the most obvious cheese in the theory crafting world that's ever come out.... If you understand how kits work, Han and Chewy should be the very first people you pair with Finn and 3PO. It truly is astonishing the devs didn't bother looking into basic expose interactions while creating C3PO

  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I mean, some of that’s a chicken and egg sort of thing. I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to. That’s on top of the fact that we’re apparently more likely to get an open dialogue on reddit than we are in the official forum, which boggles the mind (or news breaking on other partner sites). If communication occurred *here* and *more often* it would probably go a long way towards diffusing some of the tension. Would there still be some toxic and angry people? Sure, it’s the internet. But I think in general we’d see more rational discussion like we did in Carrie’s reddit thread.

    I dont see it as chicken and egg. I know it may sound surprising, but anyone can be thoughtful and constructive and not make a post that is just calling people names, questioning thier ability to do a job, or any other off topic comments, and still be upset about a topic or have very strong feeling one way or the other. It's not magic.

    Being rational in a conversation is a choice, not a reaction.

    I'm not saying people should have strong feelings, we have all sunk chunks of time and/or $$ into this and we all want things to be good/better. That doesnt mean we all can't speak intelligently and constructively about things we dont like or want to see changed (or not changed).

    I will get off my soap box now, sorry for my little rant. Flame on.

    You can’t neglect how history and a pattern of behaviors can affect other people. Most people, myself included, can only take so much of something (like poor communication) before developing an adverse reaction. We have sayings like “the straw that broke the camels back” for a reason. Normally gregarious and rational people can become irrational through repeated abuse. You may take issue with the use of the term abuse here, but “silent treatment” and “gaslighting” are textbook examples of psychological abuse, and I would definitely make the argument that those tactics have played out here, whether intentional or not.

    If you are doing something that you picked up as enjoyment or for fun, and are feeling that your only recourse is be "abusive" and "uncivilized" (for lack of better general terms) due to the feelings you are expressing, again, maybe its time to step back, take a breath and gain some perspective on the situation.

    IMO, to call those "tactics" means you are saying they are intentional. I wouldnt consider them "tactics" as they are more just the general outside view of a bureaucratic process, not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.

    As always we can agree to disagree, I dont want to lead this thread off topic. Sorry.

    You’re right, tactics wasn’t the right word and I actually spent quite a bit of time deliberating over that word specifically and failed to come up with a better option. I thought “action”, but in this case it’s just as much about what you don’t do as it is what you do, so that didn’t seem to fit. Maybe “effect” would be better, but it didn’t come to me in the moment. So chalk that up to my limited vocabulary, but disregarding that specific word you seem to get my point.

    I’m not suggesting that people are making a conscious decision to be abusive or uncivilized but rather that they’re ending up in a compromised mental state that makes it easier slip into actions like that without recognizing that they’re doing it. I don’t want to excuse it, just trying to point out that it’s an environment that’s been created through fault by both sides here.

    Telling someone to take a step back and re-evaluate their priorities is also not a full answer to the problem. Some people are passionate about the game, whether that’s appropriate or not is not for you to decide, and passion can manifest in different ways.

    Highlighting one more part from your and the following post:
    not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.
    It would be really nice to have someone in charge come in here and say something, anything, really.

    Here’s the answer. If they had popped in once, twice, over the last however many days (17?) and just said “We hear you. We’re evaluating your feedback and will see what we can do to incorporate it. We expect to be able to provide more information in (x days).” Then I, and I’m sure many of the people here, would be in a much better place.

    I understand your point and yes it can be hard to find the right word to describe the interaction here.

    My point is that people can still choose to be decent, it is not the easy road, but shouldnt we all strive to take the high road, to be the example of how we feel we should be treated?

    Expressing your emotions no matter how invested and emotional about a situation doesnt need to be done in a "not nice" way. I am not asking or saying people shouldnt be passionate. I am in no way telling people how they should react, just suggesting that if you feel a situation leaves you with "no other option" then maybe you need to examine the situation with a breath of fresh air and a little perspective, because there are always options, and there are always better ways to handle just about any situation.

    Asking the dev team to " do better" but never striving to "do better" on our end is not a realistic goal. We cant always pass the buck that "they caused this", or it's all on thier end.
    I understand your point about them "checking in" but when they have done that in the last, most of those comments are written off as lip service and since they dont have content, if they are pointed out, most dont seem to think they are if any value.

    Also, how many days is ok or not, because not everyone will view that the same way, and it will always lead to problems more than it has done anything to solve them in the past.

    I'm not saying they couldn't communicate more and try to get us information more effectively, just pointing out that it hasn't always gone as well as some say it will.

    Passion aside, we should always strive to have the understanding that feedback and even just communication will always be better recieved when it is in a constructive manner. Name calling and other judgments of personal character tend to detract from the point and negate things rather than help.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I mean, some of that’s a chicken and egg sort of thing. I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to. That’s on top of the fact that we’re apparently more likely to get an open dialogue on reddit than we are in the official forum, which boggles the mind (or news breaking on other partner sites). If communication occurred *here* and *more often* it would probably go a long way towards diffusing some of the tension. Would there still be some toxic and angry people? Sure, it’s the internet. But I think in general we’d see more rational discussion like we did in Carrie’s reddit thread.

    I dont see it as chicken and egg. I know it may sound surprising, but anyone can be thoughtful and constructive and not make a post that is just calling people names, questioning thier ability to do a job, or any other off topic comments, and still be upset about a topic or have very strong feeling one way or the other. It's not magic.

    Being rational in a conversation is a choice, not a reaction.

    I'm not saying people should have strong feelings, we have all sunk chunks of time and/or $$ into this and we all want things to be good/better. That doesnt mean we all can't speak intelligently and constructively about things we dont like or want to see changed (or not changed).

    I will get off my soap box now, sorry for my little rant. Flame on.

    You can’t neglect how history and a pattern of behaviors can affect other people. Most people, myself included, can only take so much of something (like poor communication) before developing an adverse reaction. We have sayings like “the straw that broke the camels back” for a reason. Normally gregarious and rational people can become irrational through repeated abuse. You may take issue with the use of the term abuse here, but “silent treatment” and “gaslighting” are textbook examples of psychological abuse, and I would definitely make the argument that those tactics have played out here, whether intentional or not.

    If you are doing something that you picked up as enjoyment or for fun, and are feeling that your only recourse is be "abusive" and "uncivilized" (for lack of better general terms) due to the feelings you are expressing, again, maybe its time to step back, take a breath and gain some perspective on the situation.

    IMO, to call those "tactics" means you are saying they are intentional. I wouldnt consider them "tactics" as they are more just the general outside view of a bureaucratic process, not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.

    As always we can agree to disagree, I dont want to lead this thread off topic. Sorry.

    You’re right, tactics wasn’t the right word and I actually spent quite a bit of time deliberating over that word specifically and failed to come up with a better option. I thought “action”, but in this case it’s just as much about what you don’t do as it is what you do, so that didn’t seem to fit. Maybe “effect” would be better, but it didn’t come to me in the moment. So chalk that up to my limited vocabulary, but disregarding that specific word you seem to get my point.

    I’m not suggesting that people are making a conscious decision to be abusive or uncivilized but rather that they’re ending up in a compromised mental state that makes it easier slip into actions like that without recognizing that they’re doing it. I don’t want to excuse it, just trying to point out that it’s an environment that’s been created through fault by both sides here.

    Telling someone to take a step back and re-evaluate their priorities is also not a full answer to the problem. Some people are passionate about the game, whether that’s appropriate or not is not for you to decide, and passion can manifest in different ways.

    Highlighting one more part from your and the following post:
    not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.
    It would be really nice to have someone in charge come in here and say something, anything, really.

    Here’s the answer. If they had popped in once, twice, over the last however many days (17?) and just said “We hear you. We’re evaluating your feedback and will see what we can do to incorporate it. We expect to be able to provide more information in (x days).” Then I, and I’m sure many of the people here, would be in a much better place.

    I understand your point and yes it can be hard to find the right word to describe the interaction here.

    My point is that people can still choose to be decent, it is not the easy road, but shouldnt we all strive to take the high road, to be the example of how we feel we should be treated?

    Expressing your emotions no matter how invested and emotional about a situation doesnt need to be done in a "not nice" way. I am not asking or saying people shouldnt be passionate. I am in no way telling people how they should react, just suggesting that if you feel a situation leaves you with "no other option" then maybe you need to examine the situation with a breath of fresh air and a little perspective, because there are always options, and there are always better ways to handle just about any situation.

    Asking the dev team to " do better" but never striving to "do better" on our end is not a realistic goal. We cant always pass the buck that "they caused this", or it's all on thier end.
    I understand your point about them "checking in" but when they have done that in the last, most of those comments are written off as lip service and since they dont have content, if they are pointed out, most dont seem to think they are if any value.

    Also, how many days is ok or not, because not everyone will view that the same way, and it will always lead to problems more than it has done anything to solve them in the past.

    I'm not saying they couldn't communicate more and try to get us information more effectively, just pointing out that it hasn't always gone as well as some say it will.

    Passion aside, we should always strive to have the understanding that feedback and even just communication will always be better recieved when it is in a constructive manner. Name calling and other judgments of personal character tend to detract from the point and negate things rather than help.

    Here’s the issue Kyno, they’ve responded to other areas of the forums about the game, as well as on other platforms of communication.
    I agree that for the most part the we hear you, blah blah blah” rarely works. But if they said, we’ve heard your feedback and are evaluating how best to handle this still, we need a few more days” flames would be extinguished. The fact that it’s been 17 days without anything, much less an answer from them is a bit lame. There’s no reason it’s taken 3 weeks to make a decision about this zeta refund. Either “we understand your frustration but stand by our decision”, which would set the thread ablaze again but would be a flash fire. Or “we’ve reconsidered our stance and will refund the zeta so you can make the decision on whether to use this new leader ability”
    That’s all. Deafening silence is the worst they can do

    From what you said, saying they stand by thier decision would be the worst thing they could do.

    Whose to say they have anything to say? They informed us of the decision, I understand people would like them to change thier mind, but why would they "light the fire" again, just to say, we are sticking with thier decision. <<<that would be worse then just leaving it as, the decision they already stated.
  • Natos
    138 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    I mean, some of that’s a chicken and egg sort of thing. I think part of the reason people here can be so toxic when CG finally does post here has to do with the length of time that comes between communications. People have a lot of time to store up aggression that they end up taking out when they finally get an opportunity to. That’s on top of the fact that we’re apparently more likely to get an open dialogue on reddit than we are in the official forum, which boggles the mind (or news breaking on other partner sites). If communication occurred *here* and *more often* it would probably go a long way towards diffusing some of the tension. Would there still be some toxic and angry people? Sure, it’s the internet. But I think in general we’d see more rational discussion like we did in Carrie’s reddit thread.

    I dont see it as chicken and egg. I know it may sound surprising, but anyone can be thoughtful and constructive and not make a post that is just calling people names, questioning thier ability to do a job, or any other off topic comments, and still be upset about a topic or have very strong feeling one way or the other. It's not magic.

    Being rational in a conversation is a choice, not a reaction.

    I'm not saying people should have strong feelings, we have all sunk chunks of time and/or $$ into this and we all want things to be good/better. That doesnt mean we all can't speak intelligently and constructively about things we dont like or want to see changed (or not changed).

    I will get off my soap box now, sorry for my little rant. Flame on.

    You can’t neglect how history and a pattern of behaviors can affect other people. Most people, myself included, can only take so much of something (like poor communication) before developing an adverse reaction. We have sayings like “the straw that broke the camels back” for a reason. Normally gregarious and rational people can become irrational through repeated abuse. You may take issue with the use of the term abuse here, but “silent treatment” and “gaslighting” are textbook examples of psychological abuse, and I would definitely make the argument that those tactics have played out here, whether intentional or not.

    If you are doing something that you picked up as enjoyment or for fun, and are feeling that your only recourse is be "abusive" and "uncivilized" (for lack of better general terms) due to the feelings you are expressing, again, maybe its time to step back, take a breath and gain some perspective on the situation.

    IMO, to call those "tactics" means you are saying they are intentional. I wouldnt consider them "tactics" as they are more just the general outside view of a bureaucratic process, not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.

    As always we can agree to disagree, I dont want to lead this thread off topic. Sorry.

    You’re right, tactics wasn’t the right word and I actually spent quite a bit of time deliberating over that word specifically and failed to come up with a better option. I thought “action”, but in this case it’s just as much about what you don’t do as it is what you do, so that didn’t seem to fit. Maybe “effect” would be better, but it didn’t come to me in the moment. So chalk that up to my limited vocabulary, but disregarding that specific word you seem to get my point.

    I’m not suggesting that people are making a conscious decision to be abusive or uncivilized but rather that they’re ending up in a compromised mental state that makes it easier slip into actions like that without recognizing that they’re doing it. I don’t want to excuse it, just trying to point out that it’s an environment that’s been created through fault by both sides here.

    Telling someone to take a step back and re-evaluate their priorities is also not a full answer to the problem. Some people are passionate about the game, whether that’s appropriate or not is not for you to decide, and passion can manifest in different ways.

    Highlighting one more part from your and the following post:
    not everyone we interact with has the ability or authority to say things when we want them said.
    It would be really nice to have someone in charge come in here and say something, anything, really.

    Here’s the answer. If they had popped in once, twice, over the last however many days (17?) and just said “We hear you. We’re evaluating your feedback and will see what we can do to incorporate it. We expect to be able to provide more information in (x days).” Then I, and I’m sure many of the people here, would be in a much better place.

    I understand your point and yes it can be hard to find the right word to describe the interaction here.

    My point is that people can still choose to be decent, it is not the easy road, but shouldnt we all strive to take the high road, to be the example of how we feel we should be treated?

    Expressing your emotions no matter how invested and emotional about a situation doesnt need to be done in a "not nice" way. I am not asking or saying people shouldnt be passionate. I am in no way telling people how they should react, just suggesting that if you feel a situation leaves you with "no other option" then maybe you need to examine the situation with a breath of fresh air and a little perspective, because there are always options, and there are always better ways to handle just about any situation.

    Asking the dev team to " do better" but never striving to "do better" on our end is not a realistic goal. We cant always pass the buck that "they caused this", or it's all on thier end.
    I understand your point about them "checking in" but when they have done that in the last, most of those comments are written off as lip service and since they dont have content, if they are pointed out, most dont seem to think they are if any value.

    Also, how many days is ok or not, because not everyone will view that the same way, and it will always lead to problems more than it has done anything to solve them in the past.

    I'm not saying they couldn't communicate more and try to get us information more effectively, just pointing out that it hasn't always gone as well as some say it will.

    Passion aside, we should always strive to have the understanding that feedback and even just communication will always be better recieved when it is in a constructive manner. Name calling and other judgments of personal character tend to detract from the point and negate things rather than help.

    Here’s the issue Kyno, they’ve responded to other areas of the forums about the game, as well as on other platforms of communication.
    I agree that for the most part the we hear you, blah blah blah” rarely works. But if they said, we’ve heard your feedback and are evaluating how best to handle this still, we need a few more days” flames would be extinguished. The fact that it’s been 17 days without anything, much less an answer from them is a bit lame. There’s no reason it’s taken 3 weeks to make a decision about this zeta refund. Either “we understand your frustration but stand by our decision”, which would set the thread ablaze again but would be a flash fire. Or “we’ve reconsidered our stance and will refund the zeta so you can make the decision on whether to use this new leader ability”
    That’s all. Deafening silence is the worst they can do

    From what you said, saying they stand by thier decision would be the worst thing they could do.

    Whose to say they have anything to say? They informed us of the decision, I understand people would like them to change thier mind, but why would they "light the fire" again, just to say, we are sticking with thier decision. <<<that would be worse then just leaving it as, the decision they already stated.

    No, going forward with a decision that so obviously rankled the community without further explanation would be even worse, whither or not they "light the fire again" by announcing it on the forums or not.

    The thing about COMMUNICATION is it is two-way. It is dialogue. They say something, we respond, they say something back. Dropping an announcement and walking away is not communication. Coming into posts to say "we hear you" then continuing to do what they said they were going to do in the first place without defending the position further is not communication (and also what has happened 99% of the time, which is why nobody finds value in those posts anymore).

    What CG excels at doing is making pronouncements and dictations. In other words, they tell us how it's going to be. They ask for feedback, but don't do anything with it. They don't even address it the majority of the time. That only breeds a culture of malcontent and distrust. CG has EARNED all sand they get on this forum, and elsewhere. They have to actually do something to improve it, that's not on the community they've burned countless times now.
  • Will it ever go live CG ?!?! What ‘s going on?!?
  • Gorem
    1190 posts Member
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    The nerf will happen after the C3PO event. They want to rake in everyone’s money who doesn’t follow forums before they crap on them.

    Hey, that is a really good point. They made their money off GG because people thought the Finn Counter to Revan would go, and now they will make their money off C3 as people may still think that the Finn p3 will work after he's out again.

    They are riding this Finn change Revenue.

    Man do I miss when games were made for fun and entertainment by people who took great care into every detail and never cared about profit.

    Oh well. Saz ho's about dat Zeta refund bois and gals. Least ya's can do fo' us
  • Posted a response to Kyno 3 hours ago...did they block comments?
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Posted a response to Kyno 3 hours ago...did they block comments?
    nope. also, we can't do that unless we close a thread.
  • Ikky2win
    870 posts Member
    I just want it to be over. It simply shouldn’t take 78 days for something like this. I don’t care about anything else. I just want to have it done with so I can make certain gearing/modding/zetaing/farming choices that I’ve been holding off on since this was first announced. I’m tired of working around it. For better or worse, just make the changes so we can move on.
  • CosmicJ
    348 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »


    I dont know why they dont post here as often as many would like, but I can make guesses, and my guess is it's pretty obvious when you look at the conversation that happened on reddit when Carrie posted, and the general attitude here.

    A little off topic, but since you mentioned this...

    If you are talking about the Grievous post, I don't think the response to Carrie was that bad on Reddit. Some ppl were... a little irrational... but that's the passion of the internet.

    I think it was actually great that she jumped on. If she can weather it, and continue to handle herself like she did, the company will gain more respect. This is for the simple fact that the community know they are actually being listened to (even if we can come off as an angry whingy mob sometimes).
This discussion has been closed.