To clarify my "refresh contest" comment, what i meant was that you have to refresh your attempts to reach the top5 again because you dropped past #36 on defense. Hence it becomming a "refresh contest" because the only thing you'll need to do is refresh since winning on offense is a given when everything is balanced.
Something is stopping players from refreshing their attempts to reach top5 daily since there are only so many players per leaderboard that reach top5 during pay-out. With all the different pay-outs during the day there are potentially 120 players who can get top5 (24 hours * 5 players), but that's not happening. For argument's sake devide that number by two to account for various unknown reasons and you'll have 60 players who could potentially reach top5 daily, but that's not happening either. It's not like it isn't worth it to pay 50 crystals for a refresh to earn those right back and more at pay-out.
If you can convince me it's anything other than dropping too far on defense or not being able to consistandly win on offense both due to having (a) inferior team/mods, i'll whole heartedly support your rock/paper/scissors idea.
I appriciate the effort you took to fully explain what you meant, but i don´t see that happening in swgoh. I just don´t see them making such a gigantic change to their business model and game in general. I personally would probably be less interrested in playing it aswell, but that´s just personal preference.
Sorry I don't understand what you're saying. You like or don't like the refresh contest? You define inferior teams based on lack of grinding (at our level in shard, everyone top 20 has done the grinding), but how does that relate to refresh? Currently in my shard we refresh even though we are equivalent, and that means we have gone through two non play (resource mgmt) prerequisites just to get to play (grind through RNG, and pay the crystals). I'm saying it doesn't have to be that way. I'm surprised if there are players who like that (better than the alternative), or rather who like that now and continue liking it for a year+. Of course that assumes they know what the alternative is, and I don't think many here (at least in this thread) do. Which is why I'm not directing my post at them, because it serves no purpose toward the development of this game. (Though I would be happy if others found something they like, that's a bonus)
Btw here are game design principles that my shard agrees that work in all situations:
---
PRINCIPLES OF GAME DESIGN
This started from a conversation we had on defining what 'fun' means, as we were also talking about things that are 'not fun'.
P1) progress requires effort, effort should require and enforce (more than diminish) player agency / choice, and effort is rewarded commensurately (in a way that encourages further progress)
P2) there is a competitive element (whether it's players vs. the game AI or players vs. other players) that encourages (more than discourages) further gameplay (or encourages you to progress so you can be better than the AI or other players)
P3) it is very replayable (gameplay is not boring or stale, there is always something new to do or new variations to try out that make it seem like you are doing new things to get new experiences you didn't have before)
For whatever you think of as a game (even life), stress test it against these principles. Let us know if anything should be changed.
For SWGoH, based on this definition of what a 'fun' game should be, are there any aspects that violate these principles and therefore are 'not fun' for the majority of players?
---
I've stated what I think are not fun based on that. I don't think it's beyond the development team to make those things more fun and still profitable. (If other games can do it, then they should be able to) But that depends on their goals.
I don´t like the refresh contest.
What i´m saying is that there´s something that separates the top20 players (who presumably all reach top5 during their respective pay-outs) from the players who don't reach top5 during their pay-out.
I can't say with certainty what that something is that's currently preventing them from reaching top5 daily, but i think it's because they drop too far on defense and are unable to consistandly win on offense (which is a result of having (a) inferior team/mods).
Based on what i think you're suggesting (more balanced teams rock/paper/scissors no powercreep/leaps), that would all change making it alot easier to field a team that can consistandly win on offense, which in term would also mean everyone would drop significantly further on defense. That would turn arena into a "refresh contest". The only thing that separates players would be the willingness to refresh and do many battles per day in order to reach top5. Like you said, you have to refresh because you're equivalent. Ofcourse the competativeness of leaderboards is relative, but the principle remains the same.
I currently don't need to refresh where as i did need to refresh semi often just prior to revan returning. The longer i can not improve my team (for whatever reason), the further i'll start dropping on defense. That's what i'm basing the assumption that it's all about teams/mods on.
As for the principles, i think this game does allright on all 3 of them for being a mobile freemium game. I like certain aspects more than others, but as a whole it's quite an enjoyable game. I do have low expectations and i'm not even a star wars fan, this game just delivers what i was looking for in a mobile game. I would never pay for it though.
Thank you, that's a helpful explanation of your thoughts.
Part of a creative design would mean that either the ability to play more battles is monetized or it isn't, the design choice depends on how much incentive there is to play more. If there is a big incentive, either the rewards are worth it or it's just a really fun mode, then it makes sense to monetize because people will pay for it. (By monetize, I mean charge crystals, which are earned in game or bought with money.)
Right now I don't see much incentive to pay, or as much incentive as there could be, and so the current monetization doesn't make sense to me (it discourages those not at the top).
But it's great if you and others are having fun despite what I'm suggesting. I just think it could be more fun and profitable. Kudos
My money is that the true power creep is coming soon. Revan has been awful and this is coming from someone that got him first time around. Although I benefitted from his dominance pretty long, I don’t think it’s been good for the enjoyment of the game.
It's definitely not good for enjoyment. I love Grievous. He's one of my top 5 favorite characters in game. However, I'm not going to touch him, or any of the new droids, because everyone knows DS Revan or Malak is just around the corner with their ridiculous panic farm.
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
Replies
Something is stopping players from refreshing their attempts to reach top5 daily since there are only so many players per leaderboard that reach top5 during pay-out. With all the different pay-outs during the day there are potentially 120 players who can get top5 (24 hours * 5 players), but that's not happening. For argument's sake devide that number by two to account for various unknown reasons and you'll have 60 players who could potentially reach top5 daily, but that's not happening either. It's not like it isn't worth it to pay 50 crystals for a refresh to earn those right back and more at pay-out.
If you can convince me it's anything other than dropping too far on defense or not being able to consistandly win on offense both due to having (a) inferior team/mods, i'll whole heartedly support your rock/paper/scissors idea.
I appriciate the effort you took to fully explain what you meant, but i don´t see that happening in swgoh. I just don´t see them making such a gigantic change to their business model and game in general. I personally would probably be less interrested in playing it aswell, but that´s just personal preference.
Btw here are game design principles that my shard agrees that work in all situations:
---
PRINCIPLES OF GAME DESIGN
This started from a conversation we had on defining what 'fun' means, as we were also talking about things that are 'not fun'.
P1) progress requires effort, effort should require and enforce (more than diminish) player agency / choice, and effort is rewarded commensurately (in a way that encourages further progress)
P2) there is a competitive element (whether it's players vs. the game AI or players vs. other players) that encourages (more than discourages) further gameplay (or encourages you to progress so you can be better than the AI or other players)
P3) it is very replayable (gameplay is not boring or stale, there is always something new to do or new variations to try out that make it seem like you are doing new things to get new experiences you didn't have before)
For whatever you think of as a game (even life), stress test it against these principles. Let us know if anything should be changed.
For SWGoH, based on this definition of what a 'fun' game should be, are there any aspects that violate these principles and therefore are 'not fun' for the majority of players?
---
I've stated what I think are not fun based on that. I don't think it's beyond the development team to make those things more fun and still profitable. (If other games can do it, then they should be able to) But that depends on their goals.
What i´m saying is that there´s something that separates the top20 players (who presumably all reach top5 during their respective pay-outs) from the players who don't reach top5 during their pay-out.
I can't say with certainty what that something is that's currently preventing them from reaching top5 daily, but i think it's because they drop too far on defense and are unable to consistandly win on offense (which is a result of having (a) inferior team/mods).
Based on what i think you're suggesting (more balanced teams rock/paper/scissors no powercreep/leaps), that would all change making it alot easier to field a team that can consistandly win on offense, which in term would also mean everyone would drop significantly further on defense. That would turn arena into a "refresh contest". The only thing that separates players would be the willingness to refresh and do many battles per day in order to reach top5. Like you said, you have to refresh because you're equivalent. Ofcourse the competativeness of leaderboards is relative, but the principle remains the same.
I currently don't need to refresh where as i did need to refresh semi often just prior to revan returning. The longer i can not improve my team (for whatever reason), the further i'll start dropping on defense. That's what i'm basing the assumption that it's all about teams/mods on.
As for the principles, i think this game does allright on all 3 of them for being a mobile freemium game. I like certain aspects more than others, but as a whole it's quite an enjoyable game. I do have low expectations and i'm not even a star wars fan, this game just delivers what i was looking for in a mobile game. I would never pay for it though.
Part of a creative design would mean that either the ability to play more battles is monetized or it isn't, the design choice depends on how much incentive there is to play more. If there is a big incentive, either the rewards are worth it or it's just a really fun mode, then it makes sense to monetize because people will pay for it. (By monetize, I mean charge crystals, which are earned in game or bought with money.)
Right now I don't see much incentive to pay, or as much incentive as there could be, and so the current monetization doesn't make sense to me (it discourages those not at the top).
But it's great if you and others are having fun despite what I'm suggesting. I just think it could be more fun and profitable. Kudos
It's definitely not good for enjoyment. I love Grievous. He's one of my top 5 favorite characters in game. However, I'm not going to touch him, or any of the new droids, because everyone knows DS Revan or Malak is just around the corner with their ridiculous panic farm.