The Rise of Skywalker

Replies

  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    money making idea.

    But how?

    Simple. Having a second movie, or a book/ comic to explain away said plot hole is need, people are going to buy it.

    But what is the plot hole
  • Nihion wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    money making idea.

    But how?

    Simple. Having a second movie, or a book/ comic to explain away said plot hole is need, people are going to buy it.

    But what is the plot hole

    The father of Anakin.
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    money making idea.

    But how?

    Simple. Having a second movie, or a book/ comic to explain away said plot hole is need, people are going to buy it.

    But what is the plot hole

    The father of Anakin.

    I guess. It’s not so much a plot hole, and more just an interesting mystery for them to explore later. But like all universe expansions, the goal was money.
  • We're in the endgame now

    I could see Luke saying that to himself while kneeling on the cliffs edge before he joined the force.
  • kalidor
    2121 posts Member

    Much more upbeat than the last one. Where's red rey?
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • kalidor wrote: »

    Much more upbeat than the last one. Where's red rey?

    drinking Red Rum?
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?
  • LordDirt
    4916 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    H9Wai7T&fr=yfp-hrtab&fr2=piv-web
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    Sidious created Anakin.
    Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.
  • Sidious created Anakin and I am sure he has some relation to Rey. As much as the saga is about the Skywalkers it is about Palpatine as well.
    Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Sidious created Anakin and I am sure he has some relation to Rey. As much as the saga is about the Skywalkers it is about Palpatine as well.

    This saga was never about Palpatine. He merely represented evil and corruption against the flip side of good and redemption. His character was inconsequential - a figurehead if you will, to what he represents.

    He was killed off in ROTJ.

    He is only returning now in TROS because Johnson killed off Snoke (the next figurehead representing evil and corruption). If Snoke lived through TLJ and actually became a proper character, then Palpatine wouldn't be returning at all.

    Without Snoke, the series needs a villain and they presume nostalgia will win back disgruntled fans after how TLJ affected the fanbase - simple as that.
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.

    But it’s still not part of the plot; there isn’t a single point in the prequel trilogy when Anakin’s creation needs to be explained to understand the movie.

    Thus, that fun tidbit of information comes to us through the form of non-mainstream stories. “Universe lore” such as midichlorians are not necessary for popular movies that casual viewers watch. Anakins creation is one of these side things that reasonably enter canon through a comic; and it’s really not a big deal, as so far it hasn’t affected the movies.
  • LordDirt
    4916 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Sidious created Anakin and I am sure he has some relation to Rey. As much as the saga is about the Skywalkers it is about Palpatine as well.

    This saga was never about Palpatine. He merely represented evil and corruption against the flip side of good and redemption. His character was inconsequential - a figurehead if you will, to what he represents.

    He was killed off in ROTJ.

    He is only returning now in TROS because Johnson killed off Snoke (the next figurehead representing evil and corruption). If Snoke lived through TLJ and actually became a proper character, then Palpatine wouldn't be returning at all.

    Without Snoke, the series needs a villain and they presume nostalgia will win back disgruntled fans after how TLJ affected the fanbase - simple as that.

    Did you miss Episodes 1-3? Palpatine is huge in the Skywalker saga.


    He creates Anakin
    He creates the Separatists
    He sets in motion the creation of the clones
    He creates the war
    He takes over the Senate
    He creates Darth Vader
    He kills off most of the Jedi with order 66
    He rules the galaxy with Darth Vader being his puppet

    Without him there is no Skywalker family or Empire so therefore no movies.


    Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
  • Shhhhh - don't tell them that the Skywalker the title references is actually Sheev - it's his saga after all.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.

    But it’s still not part of the plot; there isn’t a single point in the prequel trilogy when Anakin’s creation needs to be explained to understand the movie.

    Thus, that fun tidbit of information comes to us through the form of non-mainstream stories. “Universe lore” such as midichlorians are not necessary for popular movies that casual viewers watch. Anakins creation is one of these side things that reasonably enter canon through a comic; and it’s really not a big deal, as so far it hasn’t affected the movies.

    But the prophecy of the chosen one is the plot of the entire saga!

    Anakin born from the force with the power to bring balance between light and dark. He destroys the corrupt jedi order by falling to the darkside and then returns to the light and destroys the sith.

    If it were never mentioned that a mere force user (Plagueis) could also create life, then it takes away from the power of the will of the force as well as the prophecy. If it were left completely unexplained, then that would be fine - like Jesus in the bible - God created him and only God had that power - get it?
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Sidious created Anakin and I am sure he has some relation to Rey. As much as the saga is about the Skywalkers it is about Palpatine as well.

    This saga was never about Palpatine. He merely represented evil and corruption against the flip side of good and redemption. His character was inconsequential - a figurehead if you will, to what he represents.

    He was killed off in ROTJ.

    He is only returning now in TROS because Johnson killed off Snoke (the next figurehead representing evil and corruption). If Snoke lived through TLJ and actually became a proper character, then Palpatine wouldn't be returning at all.

    Without Snoke, the series needs a villain and they presume nostalgia will win back disgruntled fans after how TLJ affected the fanbase - simple as that.

    Did you miss Episodes 1-3? Palpatine is huge in the Skywalker saga.

    He creates Anakin - that is debatable, as I have already mentioned.

    Everything else is done by the figure of evil necessary to make the story work and have purpose. I never said I didn't like Palpatine, I do. But he died in ROTJ and the ST needed a new villain to drive the franchise forward then along came Snoke. Only due to poor writing of Johnson and no character depth, arc or explanation regarding Snoke and of course his lame death - the story needs an antagonist to drive the series forward, so they fall back on Palpatine - who comes out of nowhere, much like Snoke did, but we all at least know Palpatine was dead, Snoke we had no clue who he was or where he came from and that needed explaining to make him any kind of compelling villain/antagonist.

    I am not saying Palpatine wasn't important - his role was important, not necessarily the character. Whereas the Skywalker family is important as this is ultimately their story.



    He creates the Separatists
    He sets in motion the creation of the clones
    He creates the war
    He takes over the Senate
    He creates Darth Vader
    He kills off most of the Jedi with order 66
    He rules the galaxy with Darth Vader being his puppet

    Without him there is no Skywalker family or Empire so therefore no movies.




  • Stop saying it is debatable that he created Anakin. It showed him do it in the comics a few months ago. It is canon.
    Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Stop saying it is debatable that he created Anakin. It showed him do it in the comics a few months ago. It is canon.

    It was a vision. Rey had a vision that Kylo would turn to the light and Kylo had a vision Rey would join him - all orchestrated by Snoke to bring them together. it could have been a vision with manipulative intent - the vision is cannon yes, but what does that mean?

    Palp also stated the one to cheat death/create life is a power only one had achieved (Plagueis).

    Darth Plagueis novel was cannon until Disney came along. In that book it clearly described Plagueis created Anakin - is this comic only cannon for so long until Disney changes its mind again? Or like I said, it was a vision that never even happened - built on lies and manipulation.

    Like I say - its debatable.
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    This trailer is funny.

    First off the name - The Rise of Skywalker. We just had the last jedi ram it down our throats that we should let the past die and that this franchise is moving away from the Skywalker family. TLJ destroyed Luke's character and killed him off, yet here we go with the announced title. Seems like a big back track to me.

    Furthermore, in all TLJ spirits to destroy Kylo's helmet and see his character "grow" I guess he regrets his temper tantrum and is repairing his broken helmet - so much for letting the past die, lol.

    The title could mean any number of things. Like Jesus rising 3 days after crucifixion, could Luke be rising from the grave? I mean we already had Mary/Smi and Jesus/Anakin before.

    Initially this installment was going to see Leia rise to power - but with Carrie's death and limited raw footage to use for E9, I doubt the title pertains to her. One thing is for sure, Kennedy was absolutely wrong that they were not going to use any raw footage, and said JJ was confused about doing so.

    It could mean Kylo's rise, but although he has Skywalker blood, he is a solo. Perhaps Rey is a Skywalker after all or there is another character we have yet to see that is another Skywalker.

    Another thing I noticed was the first failure for Rey. It seems that rather than building a new lightsaber, she fused the broken lightsaber back together. It appears Rey is unable to build her own lightsaber - something that Younglings in the prequel era were able to do.

    Also could Rey's power be explained - she has the knowledge of a thousand Jedi generations within her. What does this mean???

    As for no one being truly gone, this could reference Luke's return, physical or spirit form - but what about Palpatine's laugh at the end?

    If Palpatine is brought back, this would just undermine everything - his character, death, prophecy of Anakin and even Snoke.

    Unfortunately this trailer did little to raise any excitement for me to see this movie. TLJ really did a number on me and probably many fans. I do not know how they are going to make this movie good without completely retconning everything in TLJ or destroying integrity of TLJ (if it has any).

    I guess time will tell.
    Great post that sums up all of my issues with the trailer too. They regressed Kylo's development, retracted Rey into a mary sue again, and reusing old villains / scenes for nostalgia (Emperor / Death Star). I really don't like JJ Abrams as a director for Star Wars at all.

    I didn't want him directing any of them... I hated what he did to the star trek franchise. But with the **** of TLJ (which did more to destroy star wars than an entire movie based on jar jar bunks life, pre obi wan and qui gon, could.
    I may watch this movie online, just to say I saw it, but really my hearts not in it.
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.

    But it’s still not part of the plot; there isn’t a single point in the prequel trilogy when Anakin’s creation needs to be explained to understand the movie.

    Thus, that fun tidbit of information comes to us through the form of non-mainstream stories. “Universe lore” such as midichlorians are not necessary for popular movies that casual viewers watch. Anakins creation is one of these side things that reasonably enter canon through a comic; and it’s really not a big deal, as so far it hasn’t affected the movies.

    But the prophecy of the chosen one is the plot of the entire saga!

    Anakin born from the force with the power to bring balance between light and dark. He destroys the corrupt jedi order by falling to the darkside and then returns to the light and destroys the sith.

    If it were never mentioned that a mere force user (Plagueis) could also create life, then it takes away from the power of the will of the force as well as the prophecy. If it were left completely unexplained, then that would be fine - like Jesus in the bible - God created him and only God had that power - get it?

    I think you’re having trouble distinguishing what is needed for the story and what you want for the story. Like I said in the post you responded to: There is never a point where we need to know how Anakin was created.

    However, I will answer your argument. Why can’t Palpatine be the “God” figure of the force? He is by far the most skilled and developed force user we have been introduced to. We don’t know the limits of his capabilities, and creating Anakin seems within his range. Anakin was still created through the Force, making the prophecy still true.

    Another interesting point: Anakin may not be the Chosen One. He could possibly be just a Palpatine experiment, and not have anything to do with the Chosen One whatsoever.

    And even further, but more of a stretch: Shmi could’ve lied about Anakin being born of no father. She could’ve had a thing with anyone, including Palpatine, as odd as it sounds. And then he could’ve erased it from her mind, they agreed to forget it, really anything. And that would make sense because she is a slave and Palpatine was someone important.

    There’s many possibilities, but I think the point is that the story doesn’t need to address it. There are many issues with the prequels, but I would consider this as not a plot hole, and more of an extra after movie question to look up on the web for committed viewers. Think about it: A casual audience doesn’t want long, technical scenes that aren’t necessary for the plot.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.

    But it’s still not part of the plot; there isn’t a single point in the prequel trilogy when Anakin’s creation needs to be explained to understand the movie.

    Thus, that fun tidbit of information comes to us through the form of non-mainstream stories. “Universe lore” such as midichlorians are not necessary for popular movies that casual viewers watch. Anakins creation is one of these side things that reasonably enter canon through a comic; and it’s really not a big deal, as so far it hasn’t affected the movies.

    But the prophecy of the chosen one is the plot of the entire saga!

    Anakin born from the force with the power to bring balance between light and dark. He destroys the corrupt jedi order by falling to the darkside and then returns to the light and destroys the sith.

    If it were never mentioned that a mere force user (Plagueis) could also create life, then it takes away from the power of the will of the force as well as the prophecy. If it were left completely unexplained, then that would be fine - like Jesus in the bible - God created him and only God had that power - get it?

    I think you’re having trouble distinguishing what is needed for the story and what you want for the story. Like I said in the post you responded to: There is never a point where we need to know how Anakin was created.

    However, I will answer your argument. Why can’t Palpatine be the “God” figure of the force? He is by far the most skilled and developed force user we have been introduced to. We don’t know the limits of his capabilities, and creating Anakin seems within his range. Anakin was still created through the Force, making the prophecy still true.

    Another interesting point: Anakin may not be the Chosen One. He could possibly be just a Palpatine experiment, and not have anything to do with the Chosen One whatsoever.

    And even further, but more of a stretch: Shmi could’ve lied about Anakin being born of no father. She could’ve had a thing with anyone, including Palpatine, as odd as it sounds. And then he could’ve erased it from her mind, they agreed to forget it, really anything. And that would make sense because she is a slave and Palpatine was someone important.

    There’s many possibilities, but I think the point is that the story doesn’t need to address it. There are many issues with the prequels, but I would consider this as not a plot hole, and more of an extra after movie question to look up on the web for committed viewers. Think about it: A casual audience doesn’t want long, technical scenes that aren’t necessary for the plot.

    I think you are missing my point.

    The power to create the chosen one with the force is done by the mere WILL of the force, a God-like entity - Not a mere user of the Force - its lessens the power.

    I think you are getting off track re: Shmi - she is Mary in the bible, even Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus.

    Palpatine already admitted he didn't have that kind of power that Plagueis could apparently command.

    Now suggesting Anakin is not the Chosen One - which has been established throughout the entire saga and confirmed by Lucas himself that he is, again, is a silly argument to make.
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.

    But it’s still not part of the plot; there isn’t a single point in the prequel trilogy when Anakin’s creation needs to be explained to understand the movie.

    Thus, that fun tidbit of information comes to us through the form of non-mainstream stories. “Universe lore” such as midichlorians are not necessary for popular movies that casual viewers watch. Anakins creation is one of these side things that reasonably enter canon through a comic; and it’s really not a big deal, as so far it hasn’t affected the movies.

    But the prophecy of the chosen one is the plot of the entire saga!

    Anakin born from the force with the power to bring balance between light and dark. He destroys the corrupt jedi order by falling to the darkside and then returns to the light and destroys the sith.

    If it were never mentioned that a mere force user (Plagueis) could also create life, then it takes away from the power of the will of the force as well as the prophecy. If it were left completely unexplained, then that would be fine - like Jesus in the bible - God created him and only God had that power - get it?

    I think you’re having trouble distinguishing what is needed for the story and what you want for the story. Like I said in the post you responded to: There is never a point where we need to know how Anakin was created.

    However, I will answer your argument. Why can’t Palpatine be the “God” figure of the force? He is by far the most skilled and developed force user we have been introduced to. We don’t know the limits of his capabilities, and creating Anakin seems within his range. Anakin was still created through the Force, making the prophecy still true.

    Another interesting point: Anakin may not be the Chosen One. He could possibly be just a Palpatine experiment, and not have anything to do with the Chosen One whatsoever.

    And even further, but more of a stretch: Shmi could’ve lied about Anakin being born of no father. She could’ve had a thing with anyone, including Palpatine, as odd as it sounds. And then he could’ve erased it from her mind, they agreed to forget it, really anything. And that would make sense because she is a slave and Palpatine was someone important.

    There’s many possibilities, but I think the point is that the story doesn’t need to address it. There are many issues with the prequels, but I would consider this as not a plot hole, and more of an extra after movie question to look up on the web for committed viewers. Think about it: A casual audience doesn’t want long, technical scenes that aren’t necessary for the plot.

    I think you are missing my point.

    The power to create the chosen one with the force is done by the mere WILL of the force, a God-like entity - Not a mere user of the Force - its lessens the power.

    I think you are getting off track re: Shmi - she is Mary in the bible, even Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus.

    Palpatine already admitted he didn't have that kind of power that Plagueis could apparently command.

    Now suggesting Anakin is not the Chosen One - which has been established throughout the entire saga and confirmed by Lucas himself that he is, again, is a silly argument to make.

    You missed my first point- it’s not important.

    The Force acted through Palpatine to create the Chosen One, like God worked through Mary to create Jesus.

    Shmi is not Mary in the Bible, she is similar to Mary in the Bible. It’s not the same, so anything in this story is possible.

    Anakin is not set in stone as the Chosen One - It’s just very likely. Unlike Harry Potter, where they created the “Chosen One” title for Harry, The Chosen One title in Star Wars existed before Anakin.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.

    But it’s still not part of the plot; there isn’t a single point in the prequel trilogy when Anakin’s creation needs to be explained to understand the movie.

    Thus, that fun tidbit of information comes to us through the form of non-mainstream stories. “Universe lore” such as midichlorians are not necessary for popular movies that casual viewers watch. Anakins creation is one of these side things that reasonably enter canon through a comic; and it’s really not a big deal, as so far it hasn’t affected the movies.

    But the prophecy of the chosen one is the plot of the entire saga!

    Anakin born from the force with the power to bring balance between light and dark. He destroys the corrupt jedi order by falling to the darkside and then returns to the light and destroys the sith.

    If it were never mentioned that a mere force user (Plagueis) could also create life, then it takes away from the power of the will of the force as well as the prophecy. If it were left completely unexplained, then that would be fine - like Jesus in the bible - God created him and only God had that power - get it?

    I think you’re having trouble distinguishing what is needed for the story and what you want for the story. Like I said in the post you responded to: There is never a point where we need to know how Anakin was created.

    However, I will answer your argument. Why can’t Palpatine be the “God” figure of the force? He is by far the most skilled and developed force user we have been introduced to. We don’t know the limits of his capabilities, and creating Anakin seems within his range. Anakin was still created through the Force, making the prophecy still true.

    Another interesting point: Anakin may not be the Chosen One. He could possibly be just a Palpatine experiment, and not have anything to do with the Chosen One whatsoever.

    And even further, but more of a stretch: Shmi could’ve lied about Anakin being born of no father. She could’ve had a thing with anyone, including Palpatine, as odd as it sounds. And then he could’ve erased it from her mind, they agreed to forget it, really anything. And that would make sense because she is a slave and Palpatine was someone important.

    There’s many possibilities, but I think the point is that the story doesn’t need to address it. There are many issues with the prequels, but I would consider this as not a plot hole, and more of an extra after movie question to look up on the web for committed viewers. Think about it: A casual audience doesn’t want long, technical scenes that aren’t necessary for the plot.

    I think you are missing my point.

    The power to create the chosen one with the force is done by the mere WILL of the force, a God-like entity - Not a mere user of the Force - its lessens the power.

    I think you are getting off track re: Shmi - she is Mary in the bible, even Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus.

    Palpatine already admitted he didn't have that kind of power that Plagueis could apparently command.

    Now suggesting Anakin is not the Chosen One - which has been established throughout the entire saga and confirmed by Lucas himself that he is, again, is a silly argument to make.

    You missed my first point- it’s not important.

    The Force acted through Palpatine to create the Chosen One, like God worked through Mary to create Jesus.

    Shmi is not Mary in the Bible, she is similar to Mary in the Bible. It’s not the same, so anything in this story is possible.

    Anakin is not set in stone as the Chosen One - It’s just very likely. Unlike Harry Potter, where they created the “Chosen One” title for Harry, The Chosen One title in Star Wars existed before Anakin.

    Wow - you're really grasping at straws now, lol
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.

    But it’s still not part of the plot; there isn’t a single point in the prequel trilogy when Anakin’s creation needs to be explained to understand the movie.

    Thus, that fun tidbit of information comes to us through the form of non-mainstream stories. “Universe lore” such as midichlorians are not necessary for popular movies that casual viewers watch. Anakins creation is one of these side things that reasonably enter canon through a comic; and it’s really not a big deal, as so far it hasn’t affected the movies.

    But the prophecy of the chosen one is the plot of the entire saga!

    Anakin born from the force with the power to bring balance between light and dark. He destroys the corrupt jedi order by falling to the darkside and then returns to the light and destroys the sith.

    If it were never mentioned that a mere force user (Plagueis) could also create life, then it takes away from the power of the will of the force as well as the prophecy. If it were left completely unexplained, then that would be fine - like Jesus in the bible - God created him and only God had that power - get it?

    I think you’re having trouble distinguishing what is needed for the story and what you want for the story. Like I said in the post you responded to: There is never a point where we need to know how Anakin was created.

    However, I will answer your argument. Why can’t Palpatine be the “God” figure of the force? He is by far the most skilled and developed force user we have been introduced to. We don’t know the limits of his capabilities, and creating Anakin seems within his range. Anakin was still created through the Force, making the prophecy still true.

    Another interesting point: Anakin may not be the Chosen One. He could possibly be just a Palpatine experiment, and not have anything to do with the Chosen One whatsoever.

    And even further, but more of a stretch: Shmi could’ve lied about Anakin being born of no father. She could’ve had a thing with anyone, including Palpatine, as odd as it sounds. And then he could’ve erased it from her mind, they agreed to forget it, really anything. And that would make sense because she is a slave and Palpatine was someone important.

    There’s many possibilities, but I think the point is that the story doesn’t need to address it. There are many issues with the prequels, but I would consider this as not a plot hole, and more of an extra after movie question to look up on the web for committed viewers. Think about it: A casual audience doesn’t want long, technical scenes that aren’t necessary for the plot.

    I think you are missing my point.

    The power to create the chosen one with the force is done by the mere WILL of the force, a God-like entity - Not a mere user of the Force - its lessens the power.

    I think you are getting off track re: Shmi - she is Mary in the bible, even Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus.

    Palpatine already admitted he didn't have that kind of power that Plagueis could apparently command.

    Now suggesting Anakin is not the Chosen One - which has been established throughout the entire saga and confirmed by Lucas himself that he is, again, is a silly argument to make.

    You missed my first point- it’s not important.

    The Force acted through Palpatine to create the Chosen One, like God worked through Mary to create Jesus.

    Shmi is not Mary in the Bible, she is similar to Mary in the Bible. It’s not the same, so anything in this story is possible.

    Anakin is not set in stone as the Chosen One - It’s just very likely. Unlike Harry Potter, where they created the “Chosen One” title for Harry, The Chosen One title in Star Wars existed before Anakin.

    Wow - you're really grasping at straws now, lol

    Says the person who ignored everything I said and decided to go for an insult. ;) I think we’re done here.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    The book was likely Darth Plagueis - which is now considered "Legend" content (non-canon).

    But to be fair, the actual story behind the creation of Anakin is a major plot hole. For that plot hole to be filled by way of a comic book (cited above) is pretty darn weak.

    Who knows - maybe all of this is part of the reason JJ is bringing back Palpatine in E9?

    ...
    Plot hole?

    Yes, plot hole - The creation of Anakin Skywalker - how was he created. Yes it is hinted that Darth Plagueis could "create life" but its not 100% confirmed he ever created Anakin - especially with the Darth Plagueis novel now considered non-cannon.

    I always thought that if SNoke were to be Plagueis, they could have taken this new saga to new hights, beyond the evil intentions of Palpatine wanting to take over the galaxy. Imagine Plagueis had survived - allowed Palp to do his thing, sweep in and control the Empire/First Order at the end and had experimented in using Darkside as well as the Light to become more powerful than we have ever seen?

    This would have tied in nicely to the direction of the force, being how you use it, not which powers are inadvertently evil or good - and we could have seen Rey evolve into a grey jedi, straddling the dark and light to save the galaxy as well as explain Kylo being evil but always struggling against his pull to the light.

    This could also explain why Luke secluded himself - to better learn about the prophecy of his father and own existence as well as how to tap into both dark and light sides of the force to save the galaxy once more - rather than being a defeated hermit. This would have fit his character as we know so much better.

    We also could have had another Star Wars Story spin-off movie - young Jedi Knight Yoda and his adventure to finding the prophecy of the chosen one and how it could have been miss-read etc.

    All of the above is far more compelling and interesting than what Disney is doing.

    Bringing back Palp now just un-does everything that has happened thus far, for what? Needing a big villain to return because Johnson killed off Snoke as being just some dude - unexplained?

    That’s not a plot hole because it’s not part of the plot. The Chosen One was to be born of the Force; Ani having no father adheres to the plot.

    I do agree that Disney could have gone many more interesting ways. But right now I’m just hoping that TROS will be enjoyable. It doesn’t need to be good, or groundbreaking, or really anything at all; I just want to enjoy the movie. It’s the same as the prequels, as in the path to peace will be acceptance. Don’t give in to your hatred.

    If they left it as that - Anakin was born of the force and was the chosen one, a prophecy that would bring balance to the force, then ok - its a religious prophecy requiring no further explanation.

    Then we hear that not just the force can create life - a mere force user can do it - Darth Plagueis. So what is so special now about the prophecy? Nothing.

    Is Plagueis anything to do with Anakin's creation - no idea really. This causes doubt in the minds of the audience. Then you have Yoda saying "miss-read the prophecy was", now causing further doubt which should have lead to some explanation.

    It was hinted at in the Darth Plagueis novel that he did indeed create Anakin, but this is no longer cannon.
    (To be honest an expanded universe novel to clarify something this important, is cheap story writing).

    The comics (under the new Disney regime) make out that Sidious created Anakin, but this was a vision. The question is, was the vision true or not?
    (Again, if this is true, then a mere comic book explaining this important issue is weak writing).

    Sidious boasts that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, yet when Anakin converts to the darkside, Sidious clearly states that the power to cheat death (and presumably create life) was a power that only ONE (Plagueis) has achieved and he would need to work with Anakin's power in the force to discover those secrets.

    If he returns, as stated, in TROS then perhaps he finally did learn that power. However, that does not mean he had that power at the time he presumably created Anakin.

    Like I say, this new trilogy could have gone in awesome directions, explaining all of this, the light and dark, why Luke was on that island (in a character fitting fashion) and Rey's place in all of this with Kylo. BUT NO! Thanks to Johnson.

    So for all the people that claim Sidious is Anakin's "father" its still a very grey debatable area.

    But it’s still not part of the plot; there isn’t a single point in the prequel trilogy when Anakin’s creation needs to be explained to understand the movie.

    Thus, that fun tidbit of information comes to us through the form of non-mainstream stories. “Universe lore” such as midichlorians are not necessary for popular movies that casual viewers watch. Anakins creation is one of these side things that reasonably enter canon through a comic; and it’s really not a big deal, as so far it hasn’t affected the movies.

    But the prophecy of the chosen one is the plot of the entire saga!

    Anakin born from the force with the power to bring balance between light and dark. He destroys the corrupt jedi order by falling to the darkside and then returns to the light and destroys the sith.

    If it were never mentioned that a mere force user (Plagueis) could also create life, then it takes away from the power of the will of the force as well as the prophecy. If it were left completely unexplained, then that would be fine - like Jesus in the bible - God created him and only God had that power - get it?

    I think you’re having trouble distinguishing what is needed for the story and what you want for the story. Like I said in the post you responded to: There is never a point where we need to know how Anakin was created.

    However, I will answer your argument. Why can’t Palpatine be the “God” figure of the force? He is by far the most skilled and developed force user we have been introduced to. We don’t know the limits of his capabilities, and creating Anakin seems within his range. Anakin was still created through the Force, making the prophecy still true.

    Another interesting point: Anakin may not be the Chosen One. He could possibly be just a Palpatine experiment, and not have anything to do with the Chosen One whatsoever.

    And even further, but more of a stretch: Shmi could’ve lied about Anakin being born of no father. She could’ve had a thing with anyone, including Palpatine, as odd as it sounds. And then he could’ve erased it from her mind, they agreed to forget it, really anything. And that would make sense because she is a slave and Palpatine was someone important.

    There’s many possibilities, but I think the point is that the story doesn’t need to address it. There are many issues with the prequels, but I would consider this as not a plot hole, and more of an extra after movie question to look up on the web for committed viewers. Think about it: A casual audience doesn’t want long, technical scenes that aren’t necessary for the plot.

    I think you are missing my point.

    The power to create the chosen one with the force is done by the mere WILL of the force, a God-like entity - Not a mere user of the Force - its lessens the power.

    I think you are getting off track re: Shmi - she is Mary in the bible, even Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus.

    Palpatine already admitted he didn't have that kind of power that Plagueis could apparently command.

    Now suggesting Anakin is not the Chosen One - which has been established throughout the entire saga and confirmed by Lucas himself that he is, again, is a silly argument to make.

    You missed my first point- it’s not important.

    The Force acted through Palpatine to create the Chosen One, like God worked through Mary to create Jesus.

    Shmi is not Mary in the Bible, she is similar to Mary in the Bible. It’s not the same, so anything in this story is possible.

    Anakin is not set in stone as the Chosen One - It’s just very likely. Unlike Harry Potter, where they created the “Chosen One” title for Harry, The Chosen One title in Star Wars existed before Anakin.

    Wow - you're really grasping at straws now, lol

    Says the person who ignored everything I said and decided to go for an insult. ;) I think we’re done here.

    Insult? Where was my insult? If you are looking for me to insult you I can.

    You state Shmi is not Mary from the bible - she is. Immaculate conception from a god or in this case, the force.

    "Anakin is not set in stone as the chosen one" - but he is - George Lucas confirmed it multiple times.

    https://youtu.be/xgBpoiC8qGA


    Like I say - grasping at straws.
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    George Lucas doesn’t own Star Wars anymore. What he says isn’t canon. And canon can always change. “Always in motion is the future.” The new Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan book shows how the prophecies aren’t necessarily true; there are just people who can fit the description.

    Shmi Skywalker is not set in stone as Mary. They could go any route they want to with her, they are not the same character.

    You insulted my argument by saying I was grasping at straws. You just ignored what I said and claimed superiority in the argument.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    George Lucas doesn’t own Star Wars anymore. What he says isn’t canon. And canon can always change. “Always in motion is the future.” The new Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan book shows how the prophecies aren’t necessarily true; there are just people who can fit the description.

    Shmi Skywalker is not set in stone as Mary. They could go any route they want to with her, they are not the same character.

    You insulted my argument by saying I was grasping at straws. You just ignored what I said and claimed superiority in the argument.

    That's because I have superiority in this little debate - I just blew you out of the water and you are still grasping at straws - very well continue to moan about it, I don't think any one is listening any more.

    "You have lost".

    https://youtu.be/Omqe4whiry4

  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    @Nihion don't get me wrong - you are completely entitled to your beliefs and enjoyment out of the franchise, just as I am. We clearly disagree, but that's ok too.
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