Spy joins Finn and HK as characters that have held back their faction, evidently. We didn't really notice in Spy's case because Geonosians were all bad until they got ships
What??? Even if geo brood applies debuffs geo soldier doesn't last I checked and so there's literally less than half of the geo toons that can incite the TM gain, that's if the potency is high enough and let's get real how often does the enemy not have buffs to allow spy to debuff or more realistically when will we ever target someone that'll produce less heavy attack? Add the fact that sun fac is slow regardless of progression and rarely applies debuffs and quite useless then how does it become beneficial to have small TM per geo ally?
Ig 88 lead. Geo Alpha, Spy, Sun Fac, Soldier. As soon as Spy takes a turn it’s game over against most teams out there. No one else will move.
Wanna try elaborating with evidence/explanation rather than just state a squad and dismissing me?
Ig88 lead gives everyone the ability to debuff on every attack. You are calling a mass assist on every move. Game over.
You are calling a mass assist on every move. Game over.
Clearly the landing of the debuff is the deciding factor, it's definitely not the mass assist on every move.
What??? Even if geo brood applies debuffs geo soldier doesn't last I checked and so there's literally less than half of the geo toons that can incite the TM gain, that's if the potency is high enough and let's get real how often does the enemy not have buffs to allow spy to debuff or more realistically when will we ever target someone that'll produce less heavy attack? Add the fact that sun fac is slow regardless of progression and rarely applies debuffs and quite useless then how does it become beneficial to have small TM per geo ally?
Ig 88 lead. Geo Alpha, Spy, Sun Fac, Soldier. As soon as Spy takes a turn it’s game over against most teams out there. No one else will move.
Wanna try elaborating with evidence/explanation rather than just state a squad and dismissing me?
Ig88 lead gives everyone the ability to debuff on every attack. You are calling a mass assist on every move. Game over.
You are calling a mass assist on every move. Game over.
Clearly the landing of the debuff is the deciding factor, it's definitely not the mass assist on every move.
Um... That makes no sense. You can't land a debuff... if you don't attack. A mass assist means 5 chances to land the debuffs. It's the combination of TM gain on a debuff WITH a mass assist on every single move that is a problem. One is the wheels, and the other is the engine. Try driving without either.
What??? Even if geo brood applies debuffs geo soldier doesn't last I checked and so there's literally less than half of the geo toons that can incite the TM gain, that's if the potency is high enough and let's get real how often does the enemy not have buffs to allow spy to debuff or more realistically when will we ever target someone that'll produce less heavy attack? Add the fact that sun fac is slow regardless of progression and rarely applies debuffs and quite useless then how does it become beneficial to have small TM per geo ally?
Ig 88 lead. Geo Alpha, Spy, Sun Fac, Soldier. As soon as Spy takes a turn it’s game over against most teams out there. No one else will move.
Wanna try elaborating with evidence/explanation rather than just state a squad and dismissing me?
Ig88 lead gives everyone the ability to debuff on every attack. You are calling a mass assist on every move. Game over.
Yeah I reread ig88 and eventually noticed that which is quite an interesting idea, it really does seem pretty dumb to nerf TM gain that much for one leader possibility, honestly they couldve kept the whole only during their turn part with a fairly high TM gain I accept maybe not 70% and yet it would still do the trick and not harm the toon too much purely because ig88 could be a leader
It could still be a problem without IG lead. Mod Soldier to 100% crit chance. That is actually VERY easy with mediocre mods. Put plenty of potency on Sun Fac and Poggle. Any fast unit goes first, and calls everyone to assist. Geo Soldier assists, and gets 50% TM from a crit to finish filling his TM to 100%. On that same move Sun Fac has a 100% chance to debuff an enemy when he attacks out of turn. If that procs then Spy will also have 100% TM now. If it gets resisted then Poggle may still get his 60% chance to debuff. If both of those fail then when Geo Soldier goes he will call both of them to assist again. So that is two 100% chances to land debuffs (- the base 15% resist chance) and two 60% chances to land a debuff. It's HIGHLY unlikely to miss all 4 of those. Also Geo Soldier will give himself 50% more TM when he crits. Then when Spy goes, he will call Sun Fac and Poggle to assist again to give himself TM, and he will call Soldier again giving Soldier full TM. Then Soldier will call Sun Fac and Poggle AGAIN and give himself 50% TM AGAIN and give them opportunities to give Spy TM AGAIN. Rinse and repeat.
It's a 100% sure thing that Soldier can crit every time and give himself 50% TM as long as he doesn't get dodged. Since his speed would be irrelevant you could put an accuracy arrow on him. Sun Fac and Poggle would also not need speed, so you could push their potency through the roof. Because of Soldier you effectively double the number of attempts at debuffs. He and Spy could possibly swap turns forever now, but that is assuming that they weren't planning on adding more debuffs to the Geos in some of the upcoming tweaks. Poggle was called out as getting a buff by Carrie, so I would bet his chance to ability block goes up to 100% making the infinite loop a pretty much sure thing. I'm actually surprised that Soldier isn't getting nerfed too.
But since the team is getting another dispel on basic, a mass dispel unique, a big health/protection lead buff, +50% health steal and constant protection regen, a mass heal/protection regen and cleanse unique, a free 6th unit on the field that will autotaunt to start battles and taunt on basic and can be resurrected indefinitely, a free health equalization on every single enemy move, a free mass assist on every single ally move, and the faction will be getting buffs in the future (Spy and Poggle for sure but likely all of them) then I'm going out on a limb and saying that this is a net improvement despite the nerf to Spy.
The reason it had to be restricted to during their turn is because of Sun Fac, whose debuff does apply on his basic (critical chance down, which is applied when he attacks out of turn), though the debuff comes from his unique. Between him and Poggle, that’s two shots to gain TM every time any ally moves, and with SF, Spy has the chance to restart the loop whenever SF counters.
As I stated earlier, I'm not sure if you've played Poggle but his chance of debuff isn't that high, the risk is there yes but quite unlikely... also how would SF counter restart the loop? His counters don't inflict debuffs?
The reason it had to be restricted to during their turn is because of Sun Fac, whose debuff does apply on his basic (critical chance down, which is applied when he attacks out of turn), though the debuff comes from his unique. Between him and Poggle, that’s two shots to gain TM every time any ally moves, and with SF, Spy has the chance to restart the loop whenever SF counters.
As I stated earlier, I'm not sure if you've played Poggle but his chance of debuff isn't that high, the risk is there yes but quite unlikely... also how would SF counter restart the loop? His counters don't inflict debuffs?
His counters do inflict debuffs. He inflicts crit chance down on an attack out of turn. A counter attack is an attack out of turn.
As I said above, because of Soldier getting 50% TM every time he crits (his own attack and when Spy attacks) you will get 4 opportunities to give Spy 70% TM. Two 100% chance hits from Sun Fac, and two 60% chance hits from Poggle. Soldier + Spy count trade turns forever.
The reason it had to be restricted to during their turn is because of Sun Fac, whose debuff does apply on his basic (critical chance down, which is applied when he attacks out of turn), though the debuff comes from his unique. Between him and Poggle, that’s two shots to gain TM every time any ally moves, and with SF, Spy has the chance to restart the loop whenever SF counters.
As I stated earlier, I'm not sure if you've played Poggle but his chance of debuff isn't that high, the risk is there yes but quite unlikely... also how would SF counter restart the loop? His counters don't inflict debuffs?
You should really read up on the kits of the toons you are arguing about
It literally says in the post that this nerf is temporary. They've said they're looking into his kit in the last couple weeks so this simply means they aren't finished with it and don't have enough time to get his rework out before the brood alpha. Which when you think about it isn't a bad thing. That means they aren't rushing into anything and they're making sure it works as intended. When that hasn't been done in the past, people have complained. And now there are still people complaining when they are taking the appropriate time to get it right?
@Fixer You need to read the entire faction's kits, including all of the "unique" or passive abilities to understand what is fully going to happen.
I also don't understand why you keep making a point about debuffs landing over and over. Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character who is almost solely used in gimmick TWs that most of the player base had indicated their distaste for.
And geos are getting a rework. Let's all just be a little bit patient.
You guys are killing me it feels ike you are targeting my strategy for GA and Padma event. Would you be so kind as to please create a maga thread and let us know what changes your going to be making to which characters so we know to avoid investing gear and more mats and time into those toons. I don't own a bank. And have yet to win the lottery. Alot of energy wasted to making them viable due to drop rates..now let's nurf abilities and refund mats!
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Rather than design a new character to work properly your behind them designing obviously flawed new characters that make obvious loops and require nerfs and reworks to existing characters in order to release the new ones?
What if they design a new jedi who gives 50% Tm on critical hits to all ally jedi?
Then they nerf Yoda because he will gain 100% Tm on his basic with this new jedi. You would be cool with that?
See, my point is players should demand new content is designed around and works with existing kits.
Gutting characters like spy, Nute, hk47, acolyte is bad for the game. it devalues and discourages spending & leveling characters for fear of future nerfs/reworks.
See, my point is players should demand new content is designed around and works with existing kits.
Gutting characters like spy, Nute, hk47, acolyte is bad for the game. it devalues and discourages spending & leveling characters for fear of future nerfs/reworks.
I see your point, and it's definitely something to keep an eye on, butfrom the developers' perspective kit like the old Spy hinders their ability to make new and exciting content. This happens in every game when the game gets large enough. This is why you have rotations in Magic: The Gathering and why Fantasy Flight Games designed X-Wing 2nd edition. Sometimes you need to get rid of the old to make way for new and interesting things.
In the case of the Geonosian Spy, it sounds like the devs have had many instances where their new ideas couldn't happen because of certain abilities. After a while, it becomes clear that if it takes too much effort to design around and limits future design space too much, it has to go.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Rather than design a new character to work properly your behind them designing obviously flawed new characters that make obvious loops and require nerfs and reworks to existing characters in order to release the new ones?
What if they design a new jedi who gives 50% Tm on critical hits to all ally jedi?
Then they nerf Yoda because he will gain 100% Tm on his basic with this new jedi. You would be cool with that?
See, my point is players should demand new content is designed around and works with existing kits.
Gutting characters like spy, Nute, hk47, acolyte is bad for the game. it devalues and discourages spending & leveling characters for fear of future nerfs/reworks.
Almost all initial kit designs were garbage, and most launch toons that are any good have been reworked. Nobody used Spy outside of a cheese team that doesn't work anymore. I don't care if he and all the Geos are redesigned from scratch as long as they are turned into a useful faction. Same goes for other garbage toons. Nute wasn't gutted. He's great now. HK lead was nuked, and lots of us liked that as it was, but occasionally that will happen. Some badly designed kits have to go to make room for better, more interesting game mechanics.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
^this, my main point which you did pick up on @Cannonfodder is that there is no garuntee of an infinite loop when you analyse this team set up, granted ig 88 lead will mess some s** up and truly cause havoc yet correct me if I'm wrong you alongside a few others have stated the crits would add to TM in geo team yet that unique only applies to geo soldier?? I agree it has potential to cause a large loop that can be unnatural in theory yes but yet you look at teams like NS which has insane TM to the point of a remarkably fast tank and up to 3 toons that can stun? I class them as an infinite loop team and yet they don't get this treatment, I accept they are remodelling the entire kit and he'll undoubtably be better overall at end but this nerf is unrequired as of yet? Bear in mind like you agreed you need to gear your potency up for this TM which immediately cuts you down in less useful mods for sustain and/or damage and still you have that 15% RNG. Complaints are everywhere about RNG meta raids, this would surely have been prior chance one of the biggest RNG teams to run and unlikely to perform well anyway especially as traya wrecks assists. In short save for the ig 88 team which would be interesting my mind doesn't see an infinite loop nonetheless a useful one I.e ewoks gear 7 vs a gear 10 team can manipulate TM all they want but get no where. Even with ig 88 team this extra TM as I said earlier makes sense to be limited to the toon who has a turn but 20% is so low, it's not like his main attack is the best damage ability he has nor one of the best basic abilities by far for an attacker...
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
^this, my main point which you did pick up on @Cannonfodder is that there is no garuntee of an infinite loop when you analyse this team set up,
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
^this, my main point which you did pick up on @Cannonfodder is that there is no garuntee of an infinite loop when you analyse this team set up,
Wrong. It's a 100% sure infinite loop.
Nice of you to jump in with no reference to data or explanations or anything not even a team where you believe it's 100% sure infinite loop? Completely disregarding you because you lack the effort to do so tbh, I've read the other people's responses and agree with quite alot of them because they have explained possibilities and the chance for extra TM is really high with each turn and I can't quite keep track in my head the speed and TM of 5 toons when going through a loop but know that half the team would have to earn their TM the hard way most likely unless odd characters.
I'll fully admit I misread like 2 characters details whoops but the fact remains all this TM gain is based on RNG as there is no 100% chance of a debuff or a critical although very high, so yes my statement was actually factually correct unless I've forgotten how RNG works because although it can be stupidly high chance RNG can stop it altogether.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
^this, my main point which you did pick up on @Cannonfodder is that there is no garuntee of an infinite loop when you analyse this team set up,
Wrong. It's a 100% sure infinite loop.
Nice of you to jump in with no reference to data or explanations or anything not even a team where you believe it's 100% sure infinite loop? Completely disregarding you because you lack the effort to do so tbh, I've read the other people's responses and agree with quite alot of them because they have explained possibilities and the chance for extra TM is really high with each turn and I can't quite keep track in my head the speed and TM of 5 toons when going through a loop but know that half the team would have to earn their TM the hard way most likely unless odd characters.
I'll fully admit I misread like 2 characters details whoops but the fact remains all this TM gain is based on RNG as there is no 100% chance of a debuff or a critical although very high, so yes my statement was actually factually correct unless I've forgotten how RNG works because although it can be stupidly high chance RNG can stop it altogether.
If you read above I made a very detailed description of how a very inferior team could also do an infinite loop. The IG88 team has nearly triple the opportunities for debuffs. If you can't read the kits and see how 10-12 possible debuffs every turn might be a problem when a character can get 70% TM off of 1 debuff then I'm not writing 4 paragraphs explaining it again like I did for the other vastly inferior loop team. Look up the term statistical impossibility.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Rather than design a new character to work properly your behind them designing obviously flawed new characters that make obvious loops and require nerfs and reworks to existing characters in order to release the new ones?
Look. Some characters from the early game were made when things were different. There was less of an emphasis on futureproofing the game and characters were made with little regard to what the game could become. You go back to 2015 and try telling people there’ll be four movies and we would get video game characters in here.
Games have to grow and evolve or else they die. Create a new mechanic (prepared) emphasize factional synergies (gone are the days when Royal Guard protected Rey while Luminara gave them all dodge and it was nuts, now are the days of full faction teams with one substitute), expand the ability count on characters (Mace with a basic and special is gone, long live a basic and minimum 2 specials).
And as the game grows you find yourself limited by what’s already been done. Arabian Nights cards in Magic: the Gathering were over-priced because it was assumed everyone had moxes and lotuses. Only once you free yourself from that mindset can you start creating newer, better stuff. Finn was too powerful. New Finn can’t do what the old one did, but can do other, better things and, more importantly, allow future Resistance characters to have exposes again.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Rather than design a new character to work properly your behind them designing obviously flawed new characters that make obvious loops and require nerfs and reworks to existing characters in order to release the new ones?
Look. Some characters from the early game were made when things were different. There was less of an emphasis on futureproofing the game and characters were made with little regard to what the game could become. You go back to 2015 and try telling people there’ll be four movies and we would get video game characters in here.
Games have to grow and evolve or else they die. Create a new mechanic (prepared) emphasize factional synergies (gone are the days when Royal Guard protected Rey while Luminara gave them all dodge and it was nuts, now are the days of full faction teams with one substitute), expand the ability count on characters (Mace with a basic and special is gone, long live a basic and minimum 2 specials).
And as the game grows you find yourself limited by what’s already been done. Arabian Nights cards in Magic: the Gathering were over-priced because it was assumed everyone had moxes and lotuses. Only once you free yourself from that mindset can you start creating newer, better stuff. Finn was too powerful. New Finn can’t do what the old one did, but can do other, better things and, more importantly, allow future Resistance characters to have exposes again.
Under this freed mindset we can expect nightsisters to get nerfed because future nightsisters can't stun with the # of existing stuns. future rebels can't even apply debuffs until cls lead is nerfed.
All these nerfs to Hk and Finn... Did we even get new Droids to work with what we lost? No. When who knows? Finn was changes for new resistance but did we get new resistance, no. until we do this is a empty hypothetical argument as a reason to nerf.
And the argument Finn needed to be nerfed to make way for a new resistance character that has multiple exposes is **** anyways on principle. they could just design resistance that only apply 1 expose with a mass ability block or buff immune. they don't HAVE TO make a new resistance character with aoe expose and a 0 turn cooldown on that special. If they really HAD TO make a kit like that put the cooldown to 9 or 19 no loop potential. Ez fix.
Proper new character design is better for the game than nerfing existing toons because of some imaginary future loop with characters that don't even exist. This happened to Hk, Finn, and now spy.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Rather than design a new character to work properly your behind them designing obviously flawed new characters that make obvious loops and require nerfs and reworks to existing characters in order to release the new ones?
Look. Some characters from the early game were made when things were different. There was less of an emphasis on futureproofing the game and characters were made with little regard to what the game could become. You go back to 2015 and try telling people there’ll be four movies and we would get video game characters in here.
Games have to grow and evolve or else they die. Create a new mechanic (prepared) emphasize factional synergies (gone are the days when Royal Guard protected Rey while Luminara gave them all dodge and it was nuts, now are the days of full faction teams with one substitute), expand the ability count on characters (Mace with a basic and special is gone, long live a basic and minimum 2 specials).
And as the game grows you find yourself limited by what’s already been done. Arabian Nights cards in Magic: the Gathering were over-priced because it was assumed everyone had moxes and lotuses. Only once you free yourself from that mindset can you start creating newer, better stuff. Finn was too powerful. New Finn can’t do what the old one did, but can do other, better things and, more importantly, allow future Resistance characters to have exposes again.
Under this freed mindset we can expect nightsisters to get nerfed because future nightsisters can't stun with the # of existing stuns. future rebels can't even apply debuffs until cls lead is nerfed.
All these nerfs to Hk and Finn... Did we even get new Droids to work with what we lost? No. When who knows? Finn was changes for new resistance but did we get new resistance, no. until we do this is a empty hypothetical argument as a reason to nerf.
And the argument Finn needed to be nerfed to make way for a new resistance character that has multiple exposes is **** anyways on principle. they could just design resistance that only apply 1 expose with a mass ability block or buff immune. they don't HAVE TO make a new resistance character with aoe expose and a 0 turn cooldown on that special. If they really HAD TO make a kit like that put the cooldown to 9 or 19 no loop potential. Ez fix.
Proper new character design is better for the game than nerfing existing toons because of some imaginary future loop with characters that don't even exist. This happened to Hk, Finn, and now spy.
Why don't you show us what proper character design is in your game. If you design kits as well as you do straw men then it would be quite a success.
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Rather than design a new character to work properly your behind them designing obviously flawed new characters that make obvious loops and require nerfs and reworks to existing characters in order to release the new ones?
Look. Some characters from the early game were made when things were different. There was less of an emphasis on futureproofing the game and characters were made with little regard to what the game could become. You go back to 2015 and try telling people there’ll be four movies and we would get video game characters in here.
Games have to grow and evolve or else they die. Create a new mechanic (prepared) emphasize factional synergies (gone are the days when Royal Guard protected Rey while Luminara gave them all dodge and it was nuts, now are the days of full faction teams with one substitute), expand the ability count on characters (Mace with a basic and special is gone, long live a basic and minimum 2 specials).
And as the game grows you find yourself limited by what’s already been done. Arabian Nights cards in Magic: the Gathering were over-priced because it was assumed everyone had moxes and lotuses. Only once you free yourself from that mindset can you start creating newer, better stuff. Finn was too powerful. New Finn can’t do what the old one did, but can do other, better things and, more importantly, allow future Resistance characters to have exposes again.
Under this freed mindset we can expect nightsisters to get nerfed because future nightsisters can't stun with the # of existing stuns. future rebels can't even apply debuffs until cls lead is nerfed.
All these nerfs to Hk and Finn... Did we even get new Droids to work with what we lost? No. When who knows? Finn was changes for new resistance but did we get new resistance, no. until we do this is a empty hypothetical argument as a reason to nerf.
And the argument Finn needed to be nerfed to make way for a new resistance character that has multiple exposes is **** anyways on principle. they could just design resistance that only apply 1 expose with a mass ability block or buff immune. they don't HAVE TO make a new resistance character with aoe expose and a 0 turn cooldown on that special. If they really HAD TO make a kit like that put the cooldown to 9 or 19 no loop potential. Ez fix.
Proper new character design is better for the game than nerfing existing toons because of some imaginary future loop with characters that don't even exist. This happened to Hk, Finn, and now spy.
Why don't you show us what proper character design is in your game. If you design kits as well as you do straw men then it would be quite a success.
Better yet I can do it for this game. How about add when leader is separatist if your worried about ig88 lead exploiting tm.
Good enough design for you? Or is asking for a proper kit still strawman lol
Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Rather than design a new character to work properly your behind them designing obviously flawed new characters that make obvious loops and require nerfs and reworks to existing characters in order to release the new ones?
Look. Some characters from the early game were made when things were different. There was less of an emphasis on futureproofing the game and characters were made with little regard to what the game could become. You go back to 2015 and try telling people there’ll be four movies and we would get video game characters in here.
Games have to grow and evolve or else they die. Create a new mechanic (prepared) emphasize factional synergies (gone are the days when Royal Guard protected Rey while Luminara gave them all dodge and it was nuts, now are the days of full faction teams with one substitute), expand the ability count on characters (Mace with a basic and special is gone, long live a basic and minimum 2 specials).
And as the game grows you find yourself limited by what’s already been done. Arabian Nights cards in Magic: the Gathering were over-priced because it was assumed everyone had moxes and lotuses. Only once you free yourself from that mindset can you start creating newer, better stuff. Finn was too powerful. New Finn can’t do what the old one did, but can do other, better things and, more importantly, allow future Resistance characters to have exposes again.
Under this freed mindset we can expect nightsisters to get nerfed because future nightsisters can't stun with the # of existing stuns. future rebels can't even apply debuffs until cls lead is nerfed.
All these nerfs to Hk and Finn... Did we even get new Droids to work with what we lost? No. When who knows? Finn was changes for new resistance but did we get new resistance, no. until we do this is a empty hypothetical argument as a reason to nerf.
And the argument Finn needed to be nerfed to make way for a new resistance character that has multiple exposes is **** anyways on principle. they could just design resistance that only apply 1 expose with a mass ability block or buff immune. they don't HAVE TO make a new resistance character with aoe expose and a 0 turn cooldown on that special. If they really HAD TO make a kit like that put the cooldown to 9 or 19 no loop potential. Ez fix.
Proper new character design is better for the game than nerfing existing toons because of some imaginary future loop with characters that don't even exist. This happened to Hk, Finn, and now spy.
Why don't you show us what proper character design is in your game. If you design kits as well as you do straw men then it would be quite a success.
Better yet I can do it for this game. How about add when leader is separatist if your worried about ig88 lead exploiting tm.
Good enough design for you? Or is asking for a proper kit still strawman lol
First, I outlined a way (in great detail) that you could do pretty close to an infinite loop without IG88. So that doesn't fix anything.
Second, the Geos are still getting reworks in the near future. So what you're saying is that the Geo faction can never get a rework that adds any debuffs on basic at all because a 70% TM boost on debuffs is so sacred that it can never be touched even if there are a million cooler things they could do with the kits. All that is important is that nothing EVER, EVER change even if it was badly designed to begin with, and means that some factions are hamstrung forever.
Also you equate a few occasional tweaks to old, busted characters to constant overhauls of anything and everything at any moment. Nice fearmongering, and straw man building.
Most of the launch/near-launch character nerfs have been centered around TM gains, mainly because there weren’t nearly as many characters and leader abilities then. Even then, they have primarily been when characters gain/grant TM outside their turn, and in a way that can reliably be triggered.
Having said that, there aren’t a whole lot of other characters that fit these characteristics - Clone Sergeant and Geo Soldier are the main ones that I’d be concerned about, since both have the ability to gain 50% TM off of a basic attack, even when assisting. So overall, most characters were future-proofed fairly well, it’s just the minority that had design space issues.
Most of the launch/near-launch character nerfs have been centered around TM gains, mainly because there weren’t nearly as many characters and leader abilities then. Even then, they have primarily been when characters gain/grant TM outside their turn, and in a way that can reliably be triggered.
Having said that, there aren’t a whole lot of other characters that fit these characteristics - Clone Sergeant and Geo Soldier are the main ones that I’d be concerned about, since both have the ability to gain 50% TM off of a basic attack, even when assisting. So overall, most characters were future-proofed fairly well, it’s just the minority that had design space issues.
Better yet I can do it for this game. How about add when leader is separatist if your worried about ig88 lead exploiting tm.
Good enough design for you? Or is asking for a proper kit still strawman lol
That doesn’t solve the original problem, where you can semi-reliably get loops under Geo Brood Alpha.
Add "assisting allies cant gain Turn Meter" to hive mind to fix that the semi reliable rng dependent loop you call the original problem that lead to this nerf.
My point is it's better to design the new characters around existing ones, rather than nerfing existing characters because of a interaction with something they are creating.
Otherwise anything we invest in is in danger of being nerfed therefore less investment by players which is bad for the game.
I fixed the two unsolvable issues with less than 5 min total thought it's not that hard to design a kit that works with existing units.
Replies
You are calling a mass assist on every move. Game over.
Clearly the landing of the debuff is the deciding factor, it's definitely not the mass assist on every move.
Um... That makes no sense. You can't land a debuff... if you don't attack. A mass assist means 5 chances to land the debuffs. It's the combination of TM gain on a debuff WITH a mass assist on every single move that is a problem. One is the wheels, and the other is the engine. Try driving without either.
It could still be a problem without IG lead. Mod Soldier to 100% crit chance. That is actually VERY easy with mediocre mods. Put plenty of potency on Sun Fac and Poggle. Any fast unit goes first, and calls everyone to assist. Geo Soldier assists, and gets 50% TM from a crit to finish filling his TM to 100%. On that same move Sun Fac has a 100% chance to debuff an enemy when he attacks out of turn. If that procs then Spy will also have 100% TM now. If it gets resisted then Poggle may still get his 60% chance to debuff. If both of those fail then when Geo Soldier goes he will call both of them to assist again. So that is two 100% chances to land debuffs (- the base 15% resist chance) and two 60% chances to land a debuff. It's HIGHLY unlikely to miss all 4 of those. Also Geo Soldier will give himself 50% more TM when he crits. Then when Spy goes, he will call Sun Fac and Poggle to assist again to give himself TM, and he will call Soldier again giving Soldier full TM. Then Soldier will call Sun Fac and Poggle AGAIN and give himself 50% TM AGAIN and give them opportunities to give Spy TM AGAIN. Rinse and repeat.
It's a 100% sure thing that Soldier can crit every time and give himself 50% TM as long as he doesn't get dodged. Since his speed would be irrelevant you could put an accuracy arrow on him. Sun Fac and Poggle would also not need speed, so you could push their potency through the roof. Because of Soldier you effectively double the number of attempts at debuffs. He and Spy could possibly swap turns forever now, but that is assuming that they weren't planning on adding more debuffs to the Geos in some of the upcoming tweaks. Poggle was called out as getting a buff by Carrie, so I would bet his chance to ability block goes up to 100% making the infinite loop a pretty much sure thing. I'm actually surprised that Soldier isn't getting nerfed too.
But since the team is getting another dispel on basic, a mass dispel unique, a big health/protection lead buff, +50% health steal and constant protection regen, a mass heal/protection regen and cleanse unique, a free 6th unit on the field that will autotaunt to start battles and taunt on basic and can be resurrected indefinitely, a free health equalization on every single enemy move, a free mass assist on every single ally move, and the faction will be getting buffs in the future (Spy and Poggle for sure but likely all of them) then I'm going out on a limb and saying that this is a net improvement despite the nerf to Spy.
As I stated earlier, I'm not sure if you've played Poggle but his chance of debuff isn't that high, the risk is there yes but quite unlikely... also how would SF counter restart the loop? His counters don't inflict debuffs?
His counters do inflict debuffs. He inflicts crit chance down on an attack out of turn. A counter attack is an attack out of turn.
As I said above, because of Soldier getting 50% TM every time he crits (his own attack and when Spy attacks) you will get 4 opportunities to give Spy 70% TM. Two 100% chance hits from Sun Fac, and two 60% chance hits from Poggle. Soldier + Spy count trade turns forever.
Because for now it is. But they said they're reworking the Spy literally in this very post. When that's done it probably won't be any more.
But.... Geonosian reworks are the perfect time to use the term 'bug fix.'
I also don't understand why you keep making a point about debuffs landing over and over. Yes, every debuff has the potential to be resisted, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Toons get modded for potency as a result. If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether. Everyone just needs to slow their roll about a rework to a minor character who is almost solely used in gimmick TWs that most of the player base had indicated their distaste for.
And geos are getting a rework. Let's all just be a little bit patient.
Can you define this more?
If the chance exists for a TM loop, it's best NOT to rely on "chance" to prevent that loop from happening. Best to just remove it from the game altogether.
Yoda gains 50% TM when attacking an enemy with over 50% hp (basically every attack since most characters have lots of protection before they even dip into their health pool). Revan calls assists, jolee calls assists, Hermit Yoda calls assists, bastilla calls assists. Plus master Yoda has an ability to gain 100% Tm and 75% Tm by himself.
Are you concerned that when matches start Revan will call Yoda (1) giving Yoda 100% Tm then Yoda (2&3) goes gaining 100 tm then giving evasion to everyone and gaining over 50% Tm. Jolee, or bastilla call Yoda (4) to attack and he is back at 100, Yoda (5) uses basic to gain 50% then jolee or bastilla call yoda to assist again (6), Yoda can attack (7,8) gaining 100 tm on buff steal special and over 50% spreading more evasion, Hermit Yoda calls Yoda to assist (9), Yoda is back at 100% Tm and on his 10th attack. Throughout all this the enemy team has not gained any tm because Yoda is going from 0 to 50 on basic then an ally with 1 speed less is taking him from 50 to 100.
CLS and 3po have a similar loop.
Ep and empire have a similar loop.
Ewoks with 3po have a similar loop.
There's loops all over this game and I think the main problem is mainly the inconsistency and arbitrary application of fixed to address loops.
At first it was were only fixing characters that had actual bugs with unintended interactions like Vader and tfp removing extra tm to solo the Rancor...
Then it expanded to characters who's abilities were not bugs, but the interaction was unintended like Nute and Jawa clearing haat excuse was they were all too low gear.
Then they fixed p3 of the sith raid a nd nerfed like 50 characters just in the raid.... This list was just too large to rework game wide so they had no choice here.
Then nightsisters, zombie, acolyte was just burn alive and trashed as a character so many changes all behind the excuse of ensuring p3 scores remain fair across the board. Finn lead was also ruined because it worked too well, no bugs it just worked too good.
Then hk47 and the OG Jawa Droids teams were gutted and Hk interaction with Droids was nerfed and he became a Droid Sith Lord and they said there was a 100% Tm gain loop potential with Droids.
Now we're into a really concerning space as a player of the game. We have moved from fixing bugged interactions, to making changes for balance even if there isn't a bug, finally were here making changes now because there could be a bug or an imbalance in the future.
Today the devs are at a point where they purposefully introduce characters like this new geo units that will intentionally break the games existing abilities causing a faction wide rework and retooling of many characters.
Okay they do have a right to make the changes.
players realize what they have today may change tomorrow... In a collection game that takes 6 months or more to build just 1 team I'd say this is bad.
It would help if devs gave some rules they follow or made new characters that could bring balance to the faction without needing reworks for all the longstanding characters. At least players would have trust in some guidelines. Many are just farming gear and not applying it because they are scared what they gear will become useless like sith assassin nerf.
I'm just pointing out that nerfing a character because of potential loops given perfect rng could be a net you don't wanna cast. It applies to every single unit in the game and means you would have to support nerfing anyone anytime for any hypothetical reason anyone can think of even making up characters that don't even exist to argue Droids can make a full loop. If this becomes accepted GMY usefulness will eventually be killed. His kit and cls kit is very good and rely on tm gain, something that is apparently being removed from the game bit by bit.
Nobody is concerned about an infinite loop with Yoda because hundreds of thousands of players using him for months in that team haven't found an infinite loop. That amounts to millions upon millions of testing hours too.
Someone already described in this thread a 100% surefire unbreakable loop where you put it on auto, and a Geo team could attack from here to infinity with the other team never moving. I'm very glad they are addressing that BEFORE people put a bunch of resources into making a cheese team that will then need to be nerfed.
Rather than design a new character to work properly your behind them designing obviously flawed new characters that make obvious loops and require nerfs and reworks to existing characters in order to release the new ones?
What if they design a new jedi who gives 50% Tm on critical hits to all ally jedi?
Then they nerf Yoda because he will gain 100% Tm on his basic with this new jedi. You would be cool with that?
See, my point is players should demand new content is designed around and works with existing kits.
Gutting characters like spy, Nute, hk47, acolyte is bad for the game. it devalues and discourages spending & leveling characters for fear of future nerfs/reworks.
In the case of the Geonosian Spy, it sounds like the devs have had many instances where their new ideas couldn't happen because of certain abilities. After a while, it becomes clear that if it takes too much effort to design around and limits future design space too much, it has to go.
Almost all initial kit designs were garbage, and most launch toons that are any good have been reworked. Nobody used Spy outside of a cheese team that doesn't work anymore. I don't care if he and all the Geos are redesigned from scratch as long as they are turned into a useful faction. Same goes for other garbage toons. Nute wasn't gutted. He's great now. HK lead was nuked, and lots of us liked that as it was, but occasionally that will happen. Some badly designed kits have to go to make room for better, more interesting game mechanics.
^this, my main point which you did pick up on @Cannonfodder is that there is no garuntee of an infinite loop when you analyse this team set up, granted ig 88 lead will mess some s** up and truly cause havoc yet correct me if I'm wrong you alongside a few others have stated the crits would add to TM in geo team yet that unique only applies to geo soldier?? I agree it has potential to cause a large loop that can be unnatural in theory yes but yet you look at teams like NS which has insane TM to the point of a remarkably fast tank and up to 3 toons that can stun? I class them as an infinite loop team and yet they don't get this treatment, I accept they are remodelling the entire kit and he'll undoubtably be better overall at end but this nerf is unrequired as of yet? Bear in mind like you agreed you need to gear your potency up for this TM which immediately cuts you down in less useful mods for sustain and/or damage and still you have that 15% RNG. Complaints are everywhere about RNG meta raids, this would surely have been prior chance one of the biggest RNG teams to run and unlikely to perform well anyway especially as traya wrecks assists. In short save for the ig 88 team which would be interesting my mind doesn't see an infinite loop nonetheless a useful one I.e ewoks gear 7 vs a gear 10 team can manipulate TM all they want but get no where. Even with ig 88 team this extra TM as I said earlier makes sense to be limited to the toon who has a turn but 20% is so low, it's not like his main attack is the best damage ability he has nor one of the best basic abilities by far for an attacker...
Wrong. It's a 100% sure infinite loop.
Nice of you to jump in with no reference to data or explanations or anything not even a team where you believe it's 100% sure infinite loop? Completely disregarding you because you lack the effort to do so tbh, I've read the other people's responses and agree with quite alot of them because they have explained possibilities and the chance for extra TM is really high with each turn and I can't quite keep track in my head the speed and TM of 5 toons when going through a loop but know that half the team would have to earn their TM the hard way most likely unless odd characters.
I'll fully admit I misread like 2 characters details whoops but the fact remains all this TM gain is based on RNG as there is no 100% chance of a debuff or a critical although very high, so yes my statement was actually factually correct unless I've forgotten how RNG works because although it can be stupidly high chance RNG can stop it altogether.
If you read above I made a very detailed description of how a very inferior team could also do an infinite loop. The IG88 team has nearly triple the opportunities for debuffs. If you can't read the kits and see how 10-12 possible debuffs every turn might be a problem when a character can get 70% TM off of 1 debuff then I'm not writing 4 paragraphs explaining it again like I did for the other vastly inferior loop team. Look up the term statistical impossibility.
Look. Some characters from the early game were made when things were different. There was less of an emphasis on futureproofing the game and characters were made with little regard to what the game could become. You go back to 2015 and try telling people there’ll be four movies and we would get video game characters in here.
Games have to grow and evolve or else they die. Create a new mechanic (prepared) emphasize factional synergies (gone are the days when Royal Guard protected Rey while Luminara gave them all dodge and it was nuts, now are the days of full faction teams with one substitute), expand the ability count on characters (Mace with a basic and special is gone, long live a basic and minimum 2 specials).
And as the game grows you find yourself limited by what’s already been done. Arabian Nights cards in Magic: the Gathering were over-priced because it was assumed everyone had moxes and lotuses. Only once you free yourself from that mindset can you start creating newer, better stuff. Finn was too powerful. New Finn can’t do what the old one did, but can do other, better things and, more importantly, allow future Resistance characters to have exposes again.
Under this freed mindset we can expect nightsisters to get nerfed because future nightsisters can't stun with the # of existing stuns. future rebels can't even apply debuffs until cls lead is nerfed.
All these nerfs to Hk and Finn... Did we even get new Droids to work with what we lost? No. When who knows? Finn was changes for new resistance but did we get new resistance, no. until we do this is a empty hypothetical argument as a reason to nerf.
And the argument Finn needed to be nerfed to make way for a new resistance character that has multiple exposes is **** anyways on principle. they could just design resistance that only apply 1 expose with a mass ability block or buff immune. they don't HAVE TO make a new resistance character with aoe expose and a 0 turn cooldown on that special. If they really HAD TO make a kit like that put the cooldown to 9 or 19 no loop potential. Ez fix.
Proper new character design is better for the game than nerfing existing toons because of some imaginary future loop with characters that don't even exist. This happened to Hk, Finn, and now spy.
Why don't you show us what proper character design is in your game. If you design kits as well as you do straw men then it would be quite a success.
Better yet I can do it for this game. How about add when leader is separatist if your worried about ig88 lead exploiting tm.
Good enough design for you? Or is asking for a proper kit still strawman lol
First, I outlined a way (in great detail) that you could do pretty close to an infinite loop without IG88. So that doesn't fix anything.
Second, the Geos are still getting reworks in the near future. So what you're saying is that the Geo faction can never get a rework that adds any debuffs on basic at all because a 70% TM boost on debuffs is so sacred that it can never be touched even if there are a million cooler things they could do with the kits. All that is important is that nothing EVER, EVER change even if it was badly designed to begin with, and means that some factions are hamstrung forever.
Also you equate a few occasional tweaks to old, busted characters to constant overhauls of anything and everything at any moment. Nice fearmongering, and straw man building.
Having said that, there aren’t a whole lot of other characters that fit these characteristics - Clone Sergeant and Geo Soldier are the main ones that I’d be concerned about, since both have the ability to gain 50% TM off of a basic attack, even when assisting. So overall, most characters were future-proofed fairly well, it’s just the minority that had design space issues.
That doesn’t solve the original problem, where you can semi-reliably get loops under Geo Brood Alpha.
Add "assisting allies cant gain Turn Meter" to hive mind to fix that the semi reliable rng dependent loop you call the original problem that lead to this nerf.
My point is it's better to design the new characters around existing ones, rather than nerfing existing characters because of a interaction with something they are creating.
Otherwise anything we invest in is in danger of being nerfed therefore less investment by players which is bad for the game.
I fixed the two unsolvable issues with less than 5 min total thought it's not that hard to design a kit that works with existing units.