Why do they want to break up Guilds?

Replies

  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Jarvind wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    They want to break up huilds because they never wanted guilds in the first place. You all forming guilds was your prerogative, not CG's will.

    Er....what?

    Guilds wouldn't exist if CG didn't put them (and related content) in the game.

    Guilds existed before CG put them in the game.

    This is in direct competition with my understanding of the concept of causality.

    Somewhat true. But even if you are a casual you would like to learn the game properly assuming you play it regularly. That introduces guilds on chat platforms even if there's no ingame functionality as such. That was the case for CGs previous game where they never plan to make a game with guilds and had to introduce them 1.5 years into the game when there were several large guilds around. Otherwise it's just a collection game which is much harder to capitalise and drive competition on.
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Jarvind wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    They want to break up huilds because they never wanted guilds in the first place. You all forming guilds was your prerogative, not CG's will.

    Er....what?

    Guilds wouldn't exist if CG didn't put them (and related content) in the game.

    Guilds existed before CG put them in the game.

    This is in direct competition with my understanding of the concept of causality.

    Somewhat true. But even if you are a casual you would like to learn the game properly assuming you play it regularly. That introduces guilds on chat platforms even if there's no ingame functionality as such. That was the case for CGs previous game where they never plan to make a game with guilds and had to introduce them 1.5 years into the game when there were several large guilds around. Otherwise it's just a collection game which is much harder to capitalise and drive competition on.

    Causal, not casual. As in, you can’t have a guild before they exist. TI pretended though.
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    Casualty. As in, the game would die without guilds.

    Er....
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Mediiiiiiiiiic!
  • Stokat
    823 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    They want to break up huilds because they never wanted guilds in the first place. You all forming guilds was your prerogative, not CG's will.

    Er....what?

    Guilds wouldn't exist if CG didn't put them (and related content) in the game.

    Guilds existed before CG put them in the game.

    How so? I wasn't around, but if they weren't in the game, what was the point? There would be no currency, no events, nothing that has anything to do with a guild.

    Guilds didn't exist within the game before the introduction of raids (pit raid back then) and there were no in game benefits of guilds. But I guess ppl banded together for social interactions on Line or Discord and such and to discuss strategy and arena metas (I only joined my first guild with the introduction of Pit Raid).

    When CG created guilds it was the biggest change/improvement to the game to date and they were very clear that guilds were intended to be an integral part of the game. To claim that CG never wanted guilds in the first place is obviously false. They also encouraged people to join guilds back then and still do with new players today and they have released a lot of content since then that is only accessible by participating and working together in a guild.

    Now as they continue to release new endgame content to keep the game alive and challenging some people might look for new guilds better suited for their ambitions and maturity. This is not malevolence from CG's part toward the general player base or any enmity towards guilds. It is just something that happens when there is a large discrepancy between the members in a guild.

  • kalidor
    2121 posts Member
    New content acts as a catalyst to those players that have already been thinking of moving on. Solid guilds don't tend to lose many players. This happened when the tank raid came out, when TBs debuted, then TWs, and the sith raid. The alternative is letting the game die by content starvation.

    We've lost many over the years to boredom - they just up & quit the game - but we've only lost a few players to new content. Guilds either have to grow or they implode/explode/collapse/wither/whatever-we're-calling-it-today.
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • Drazhar
    784 posts Member
    Because they need to get all the whales they care about in the same guilds. A little circle of enormous guilds, to herd them all better, to watch how much they spend and how often more closely. It's just a step in the process that will get most f2ps out of the game. They started with new players, now it's our turn.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Drazhar wrote: »
    Because they need to get all the whales they care about in the same guilds. A little circle of enormous guilds, to herd them all better, to watch how much they spend and how often more closely. It's just a step in the process that will get most f2ps out of the game. They started with new players, now it's our turn.

    They won't stop until they leave all f2p out of the game, eh? Then why make a game f2p. You don't seem to understand f2p game monetization at all. If an f2p game loses most of it's f2p populace it dies a miserable death. They always have to spread things to some degree while maintaining any of those f2p may become a future spender. Each instance in the game that frustrates you is designed to catch you by the gut to spend.
  • I will admit trying to get the whales to face each other more often than a F2P player works to CG's advantage. if a whale always faces lower competition then the need to spend more is lessened as they always win. Now if they have to face other whales more often and can lose this entices them to spend more to increase their win %. This is where the Grand Arena and the new Grand Arena Championship comes into play as the whale is not facing just players from their own shard anymore so they need to invest more to ensure higher rewards.

    And if you think this was not on CG's mind when doing this I have some ocean front property in Kansas to sell you.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    They make new content, this content will be easier with a higher GP, this is the case for any content.

    They placed a value on the minimum and have explained that even those at the minimum will have a hard time getting meaningful rewards.

    So they should not make new content? Or they should not make hard content?

    How would either of those be good for the game?
    Players leaving a guild is a personal choice they make and is not forced upon them by anyone.

    Except you are completely ignoring the context of the game they are playing. Yes, there was pressure for the best players to leave thier guilds for better guilds, but it's now a near requirement for them to leave to progress. Gated entry, gated rewards, gated progression.

    Maybe leaving was a choice before, but now it's near mandatory. And, CG controls that context, not players.

    You are missing the point, what is gated by this content? There is literally 1 reward, shards of Wat. The progression is open through other means. Gated entry is fine since the difficulty would be there anyway and that is the traditional gate for stuff like this.
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    There is literally 1 reward, shards of Wat.

    Shards of wat now?

    Sorry, I know this joke is both old and obvious, but I can't help myself.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    There is literally 1 reward, shards of Wat.

    Shards of wat now?

    Sorry, I know this joke is both old and obvious, but I can't help myself.

    It's ok, I wouldnt expect any less of you. (Not any more either :wink: , at least not until that paycheck gets in the mail)
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    There is literally 1 reward, shards of Wat.

    Shards of wat now?

    Sorry, I know this joke is both old and obvious, but I can't help myself.

    It's ok, I wouldnt expect any less of you. (Not any more either :wink: , at least not until that paycheck gets in the mail)

    I take it the lone CG computer is being used right now so no direct deposit.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • JaggedJ
    1352 posts Member
    Unless you have irl friends in your guild, leaving really doesn't change anything. You move on, they move on, you go to a guild that may not be better or worse but just different.

    All this talk of loyalty and betrayal. This is a game. Nobody is betraying anyone, they're just playing the game differently.
  • JaggedJ wrote: »
    Unless you have irl friends in your guild, leaving really doesn't change anything. You move on, they move on, you go to a guild that may not be better or worse but just different.

    All this talk of loyalty and betrayal. This is a game. Nobody is betraying anyone, they're just playing the game differently.

    Well JaggedJ not everyone thinks that way in my guild we are friend almost like extended family. When a guild mate loses a loved one we are there for them. When they get married we celebrate with them. When you build real relationships with people it is not so easy to toss them aside. I am sorry if you do not get to experience this side of the game community but don't just play it off as nothing.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    There is literally 1 reward, shards of Wat.

    Shards of wat now?

    Sorry, I know this joke is both old and obvious, but I can't help myself.

    It's ok, I wouldnt expect any less of you. (Not any more either :wink: , at least not until that paycheck gets in the mail)

    I take it the lone CG computer is being used right now so no direct deposit.

    We were told they have 2 now.
  • JaggedJ
    1352 posts Member
    JaggedJ wrote: »
    Unless you have irl friends in your guild, leaving really doesn't change anything. You move on, they move on, you go to a guild that may not be better or worse but just different.

    All this talk of loyalty and betrayal. This is a game. Nobody is betraying anyone, they're just playing the game differently.

    Well JaggedJ not everyone thinks that way in my guild we are friend almost like extended family. When a guild mate loses a loved one we are there for them. When they get married we celebrate with them. When you build real relationships with people it is not so easy to toss them aside. I am sorry if you do not get to experience this side of the game community but don't just play it off as nothing.

    I was in a guild that did exactly as you describe. We talked about real life etc, and it was nice getting to know the people behind the name. Sone would even throw around the "line" of "we're not just a guild, we're more like a family" and yet when anyone left did people still stay in contact? Nope. It was business as usual.

    Words are just that - words. If it keeps everyone in line then great for the guild, it's a nice rally cry, but nobody should be forced to stay in a guild because of misguided loyalty or made to feel bad because they don't stay.

    If these "extended family members" are really just that then them leaving the guild would make zero difference to communicating with them or how you treat them, right?

  • JaggedJ wrote: »
    If these "extended family members" are really just that then them leaving the guild would make zero difference to communicating with them or how you treat them, right?

    Correct I still talk with my previous Guild and I never feel upset when someone moves on. I said they are Extended Family not an Ex I would try to avoid. If you don't stay in touch again I am sorry that happened to you but don't lump everyone in that scenario
  • JaggedJ
    1352 posts Member
    JaggedJ wrote: »
    If these "extended family members" are really just that then them leaving the guild would make zero difference to communicating with them or how you treat them, right?

    Correct I still talk with my previous Guild and I never feel upset when someone moves on. I said they are Extended Family not an Ex I would try to avoid. If you don't stay in touch again I am sorry that happened to you but don't lump everyone in that scenario

    So if you're not using loyalty to get people to stay and not calling people betrayers or weak when they leave then how was my post directed at you when clearly my point was that nobody was betraying anyone by leaving a guild?

    Nothing "happened" to me. It's a game. And I'll lump anyone into any scenario if it's easier to make a broad generalization to make a point. If your circumstances are different then good for you.
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    There is literally 1 reward, shards of Wat.

    Shards of wat now?

    Sorry, I know this joke is both old and obvious, but I can't help myself.

    It's ok, I wouldnt expect any less of you. (Not any more either :wink: , at least not until that paycheck gets in the mail)

    I take it the lone CG computer is being used right now so no direct deposit.

    We were told they have 2 now.

    Then they should really be able to dedicate one to finding my lost paycheck. The game is doing fine on the other one.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Gorem
    1190 posts Member
    Four pages, interesting topic, I will say though that this has been their intention with every new Raid, so why should another form of pve or any form of pvp be any different? If people want to advance faster, they get in high in ends and leave behind the friends that are the sole reason they still play....
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    Gorem wrote: »
    Four pages, interesting topic, I will say though that this has been their intention with every new Raid, so why should another form of pve or any form of pvp be any different? If people want to advance faster, they get in high in ends and leave behind the friends that are the sole reason they still play....

    Funny enough, the release of challenging content has lead to my guild merging with another guild which in term lead to me enjoying the game more.
    We've lost some members allong the way with whom i had fun chatting. We've also lost some members that caused me some level of frustration due to not participating in guild events. Some players fall into both of those catagories.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Billiam
    74 posts Member
    To offer a bit of odd perspective (as in someone who's been ok with most of the changes over the years), this is a definite test moment for higher GP players.

    My guild was in this boat with the release of HSTR. We had a GP around 80m or so at that time, and over time lost really good players to the gear chase. I have seen this happen time and time again in actual MMOs.

    We had two choices as I saw it. One was to sit and wait for fate to somehow get us ready for heroic (casual path), or to make changes to get ourselves ready (endgame path). So I went with the **** path, so to speak.

    First I set activity expectations (no 0 scores, kick after 3 unexplained days offline), then I set GP goals (2mil minimum to join/remain), then I started kicking people not interested in either. We went from 80ish mil to about 120 mil in a few weeks of continually shuffling out players 2 or 3 at a time who were not able to get on board with our new rules. Then, we started kicking people who weren't helping us with PVP (0 scoring TW) and weren't growing the proper raid teams (yes, you do need RJT, NS, and Deathtrooper). I lost players with 200k+ raid tickets over years of play as well as very nice casual players, but it worked.

    I probably kicked an 80mil GP guild worth of players over the course of two months. I also had caveats; Scoring 600 raid Tix per day? Great you get a pass on raids/PVP and can stay with 1.5mil GP. Oh you have work/school, alright no kick unless you miss 300 tickets average for a week.

    I had to choose whether to prioritize "friendliness" or "progress", because not everyone cares about both. It pained me to remove long term players, I gave them months of passes on things I was kicking newer players for (not) doing. I tried to be fair and give players time to adjust, but the fact is they already played as much as they want to, and new rules/raids/toons/ships whatever weren't going to change that. So I made tough decisions each step of the way and cut our dead weight one by one. (Sorry to any expats who happen to see this, if you want to rejoin feel free if you want to be active again).

    Now we are at 48/50, about 145m GP, and complete HSTR in half a day. Went from T5 sith and 20-ish TB stars, to heroic and over 40, and are likely to be going after the Geo TB.

    I could've left long ago and had Traya and all my G12+ filled, so could my officers (one did), but in the end it was the road map to end game content that kept a majority of our guild intact. Does your guild have an actual plan? Or is the plan "play game and hope we get all the stuff"? Anyone who has played an MMO knows that you need actual plans/paths for content progress, or you will lose players who are left without guidance or a tangible goal to aim for to know it's "worth it" to stick around.

    Maybe that player isn't happy carrying everyone thru content, maybe they don't like the pressure of having to be The One to clear all the raids because no one else wants to farm RJT, or think Nightsisters are dumb, or whatever silliness. Maybe your guild only gets to run HPit once a week because half the guild thinks spending crystals on energy for max raid tickets isn't worth it (its very worth it, so so sorry to guilds not getting at least 20k tickets per day).

    Everyone wants their big wigs to stay around, but the fact is they've either played longer, smarter, or actually paid money for their progress. What are you as a guild doing to recognize their desire for a higher level of play? If the answer is complain about new content on the forums instead of making changes to the guild, then yeah they're gonna leave.

    Maybe not today, maybe not the next big thing, but eventually yes they will leave if no one else is helping ease the load.
  • APX_919
    2468 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    There is literally 1 reward, shards of Wat.

    Shards of wat now?

    Sorry, I know this joke is both old and obvious, but I can't help myself.

    It's ok, I wouldnt expect any less of you. (Not any more either :wink: , at least not until that paycheck gets in the mail)

    I take it the lone CG computer is being used right now so no direct deposit.

    We were told they have 2 now.

    Then they should really be able to dedicate one to finding my lost paycheck. The game is doing fine on the other one.

    Dude, where do you think the money came from to get that 2nd computer? That check's been spent.
    "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen...mostly"
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    APX_919 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    There is literally 1 reward, shards of Wat.

    Shards of wat now?

    Sorry, I know this joke is both old and obvious, but I can't help myself.

    It's ok, I wouldnt expect any less of you. (Not any more either :wink: , at least not until that paycheck gets in the mail)

    I take it the lone CG computer is being used right now so no direct deposit.

    We were told they have 2 now.

    Then they should really be able to dedicate one to finding my lost paycheck. The game is doing fine on the other one.

    Dude, where do you think the money came from to get that 2nd computer? That check's been spent.

    This is a traveshamockery.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Billiam wrote: »
    Maybe your guild only gets to run HPit once a week because half the guild thinks spending crystals on energy for max raid tickets isn't worth it (its very worth it, so so sorry to guilds not getting at least 20k tickets per day).

    This one always gets me. people tell me all the time I can't spend money on refreshes. If you collect your free energy drops (i make sure mine drop at lunch, right after work and the evening so I don't miss them) then that will get you 540 tickets so 1 refresh of 50 crystals give you 120 energy which will last 2 days. That means you only are spending 25 crystals a day to get to 600. You make more than double that a day doing your daily activities. On top of that out of that 120 energy if you use that on hard nodes you will average 2 shards at least and the shards are worth 80 crystals a pop in the shipments so for 50 crystals you get 160 crystals worth of shards plus you get to do raids more often. It is a no brainer to me.
  • The issue i see personally is the gap between f2p,p2w will only go higher.

    If you think the whales love to play against other whales you coudnt be more wrong,they only want to fight f2p players so they rofl stomp them.I seen it in other games when they tried to balance the pvp and some High spenders literally cried in discord couse they woudnt be able to get 1st spot like they were used to.

    Like it or not f2p players are needed as well in games for a healthy population.You can have a whale spend 1k bucks to buy packs,but it would be better to have 100 ppl buy 10 bucks packs,couse if that whale just for any reason stops spending you lose all your income,but you can afford to lose some low paying players.I rly dont know why some Companies dont strive for the longevity and only looking for short term income.

    Maybe not rly appropriate post here,but its never good to make a change that will cost you to lose so many players,thus disrupting a healthy population.
  • CCyrilS
    6732 posts Member
    JaggedJ wrote: »
    Unless you have irl friends in your guild, leaving really doesn't change anything. You move on, they move on, you go to a guild that may not be better or worse but just different.

    All this talk of loyalty and betrayal. This is a game. Nobody is betraying anyone, they're just playing the game differently.

    Well JaggedJ not everyone thinks that way in my guild we are friend almost like extended family. When a guild mate loses a loved one we are there for them. When they get married we celebrate with them. When you build real relationships with people it is not so easy to toss them aside. I am sorry if you do not get to experience this side of the game community but don't just play it off as nothing.

    If you're that close a little thing like a TB wouldn't break you up.... you guys obviously care more about each other than the game, so what are you worried about?
  • Straegen
    194 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    Our 140 mil guild is going through the breakup process now as the big rosters must refocus on G13 to remain competitive. I understand the need for new end game content but adding content that speeds up leveling at the high end just makes the game less appealing to those starting out.

    A G13 team for most new players is a year away for daily players that aren't whales. By the time they get that G13 team, the arena meta will have shifted away. Due to the requirements of the new TB, they actually made it much more difficult for new players to find a guild that will help them grow faster. It was already daunting to get an HSTR guild for players playing less than six months.

    This implementation of end game content will significantly accelerate the leveling of high end rosters over newer players. The chasm between 2 mil and lower players and 3 mil plus players is about to grow. I appreciate the addition of end game content but they also need to find a way to help newer players catch up otherwise the game will become stale as new players will simply play a different newer game with the same mechanics so they aren't completely outmatched even after playing a full year.

    My suggestion is to add a Padawan system to guilds allowing in low GP new and mid-game players but not penalizing a guild in the process. Some guild groups do this by rotating members into their farm guilds to help with HSTR. This is a good approach for a flawed system.
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