New Sandbag GAC League Progression Tactic

Prev134
Here is the specific problem:

Players are ranked into divisions based on total GP...
GA matchmaking is based on only toon GP....
This results in cross division play which is essentially a HUGE PENALTY to anyone who invested in ships now I have to compete against other division 2 players who have 8 battles but I only get 6 battles to score just as many points. As a result I'm stuck in the lower LEAGUE and my progression through the LEAGUES is severely hindered due to only 6 battles not 8.

On top of all that the plan is to have higher LEAGUES have better rewards?

THIS WILL KILL THE GAME 100%
GATING THE REWARDS BEHIND LEAGUES WHILE ALSO MAKING IT COMPLETELY UNFAIR FOR PLAYERS LIKE ME WHO INVESTED IN SHIPS TO PROGRESS THROUGH LEAGUES BY LIMITING BATTLES TO 6, NOT 8 VIA THE GA MATCHMAKING THAT ONLY LOOKS AT TOON GP IS THE END OF THE GAME IF THIS IS NOT FIXED.

The solution is NO CROSS DIVISION PLAY

This can be accomplished by making all GA matchmaking based on total GP and all GA include ships.

If there's a ship-less GA the whole GAC needs to be without ships, and divisions need to be based on only toon gp.

Every GA in a GAC is going to screw over everyone who has extra ship GP causing them to be in a higher division than their GA opponent, THIS LIMITS THE LEAGUE PROGRESSION AKA REWARDS because they get less combat.

Here's how it went down in your "test" GA

I'm 4m gp so division 2, but I have 1.5m in ships, so about 2.5 toon gp. The other players I'm matched with have have 2.5m toon gp but much less in ships. They are all about 3.5m total GP so division 3.

I killed all enemy teams with undersized squads, sometimes I even had full protection on all my guys when the fight was over. I won all 6 matchups clearing the board earning the maximum points possible.

I'm not going to be able to progress to the next level because there is just not enough teams to fight. Division 2 leaders have 2,200+ points and I'm maxed out at 1500. I need 4600 so if I clear all 3 opponents this GA with all undersized squads all on my 1st attempt I'm still gonna fall short of even moving up a League. Other players with 4m gp easily move up Leagues even if they don't win everything because they get 2 extra battles.

That's a TON of extra points I'm not getting.
90 x 2 teams x 3 rounds x 4 weeks 2,160 points and that's just setting defenses.

Why should someone else who's 4m gp get division 2 and be able to progress leagues much easier simply because they have LESS SHIPS so they are with other division 2 people and get 8 battles.

THE DEVS JUST CREATED THE NEW SANDBAG TACTIC of NOT UPGRADING SHIPS TO KEEP SHIP GP AS LOW AS POSSIBLE TO GET AN ADVANTAGE IN LEAGUE PROGRESSION.

Replies

  • It isn’t a tactic it is broke. Not intended.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Sorry, but ships can be used to move you up a division, which means better rewards.

    Being matched against players by only characters GP, again makes ship investment a wash for the most part.

    I agree with the other part, if you play down a division then you are at a disadvantage, but sandbagging ships hurts you not helps you.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    The actual GA part itself does not match based on total GP. So for example, I’m in a division based on total GP, due to feats and stuff, but my opponent for this round has 200,000 ship GP more than me, because we have the same character GP. So while total GP is a total measurement of where you're at compared to others, you will only face people with similar distribution of that GP, or just similar useful GP for that event. Does that make sense?


    Total GP (includes fleet) - used to place players in divisions for rewards. This will be fixed for the whole event (Normally 4 rounds with 1 week off)

    Character GP - used for matchmaking when no fleets are involved in the match. Reevaluated after each round (a round being the 3 matches in a single week)

    @Kyno this creates a problem with league progression for anyone who invested in ships.

    Example
    Player 1 has 2.5 toons, 1.5 ships, 4m gp, division 2,

    Player 2 has 3m toons, 1m ships, 4m gp, division 2,

    Player 2 gets 8 battles offense and defense to earn points towards league progression (BETTER REWARDS HIGHER LEAGUES)

    Player 1 only gets 6 battles on offense and defense to earn points to move up a league

    Both players need the same amount for LEAGUE promotion

    How is the fair?

    Sure seems like I'm being penalized for investing in ships via limiting my league progression unless last place rewards for division 2 bronze league are better than first place in Kyber in division 3, which I doubt.
  • Sure having more ships helps you move up a division, but it severely limits your LEAGUE PROGRESSION.

    With g13 and rewards being based on what LEAGUE your in this is a major design flaw.
  • TVF
    36528 posts Member
    So much SHOUTING makes it hard to take you SERIOUSLY.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    So much SHOUTING makes it hard to take you SERIOUSLY.

    I type LOUD because I have a MECHANICAL keyboard
  • Ultra
    11454 posts Moderator
    I thought bobcat's android device was no longer supported after the title update
  • Ultra wrote: »
    I thought bobcat's android device was no longer supported after the title update

    Your memory is correct, however.
    I have a lot of Droids.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    The actual GA part itself does not match based on total GP. So for example, I’m in a division based on total GP, due to feats and stuff, but my opponent for this round has 200,000 ship GP more than me, because we have the same character GP. So while total GP is a total measurement of where you're at compared to others, you will only face people with similar distribution of that GP, or just similar useful GP for that event. Does that make sense?


    Total GP (includes fleet) - used to place players in divisions for rewards. This will be fixed for the whole event (Normally 4 rounds with 1 week off)

    Character GP - used for matchmaking when no fleets are involved in the match. Reevaluated after each round (a round being the 3 matches in a single week)

    @Kyno this creates a problem with league progression for anyone who invested in ships.

    Example
    Player 1 has 2.5 toons, 1.5 ships, 4m gp, division 2,

    Player 2 has 3m toons, 1m ships, 4m gp, division 2,

    Player 2 gets 8 battles offense and defense to earn points towards league progression (BETTER REWARDS HIGHER LEAGUES)

    Player 1 only gets 6 battles on offense and defense to earn points to move up a league

    Both players need the same amount for LEAGUE promotion

    How is the fair?

    Sure seems like I'm being penalized for investing in ships via limiting my league progression unless last place rewards for division 2 bronze league are better than first place in Kyber in division 3, which I doubt.

    That has nothing to do with investing in ships.

    They have more investment in thier character roster, there is a difference.

    This is all dependent on how the reward breaks down, you are jumping the gun.
  • man, why does people cry so much? If you invested in ships and you are good, you should do well. Stop blaming other things.
  • TVF
    36528 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »
    Great. Thanks for letting me know you like to cry wolf a lot

    Good night nurse!
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Dk_rek
    3299 posts Member
    Angelloyd wrote: »
    man, why does people cry so much? If you invested in ships and you are good, you should do well. Stop blaming other things.

    Lol make sense u do do not
  • TheDarkCrystalX
    49 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    This inequity has been known for 24 hours now and the GAC should have been shut down to fix it yesterday. Kind of good that devs messed that up and found this worse bug too. That being said GAC is not ready even for more testing. The major issues that have been found indicates it is weeks from another test. You cant have people in division 3 laying 5 up to 8 defenses. That is totally unfair for people getting punished for playing well. Divisions should be by defenses placed instead of this random setup. Whatever the formula is for determining defenses would make much more sense and be equitable for determining divisions
  • @Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.
  • BobcatSkywalker
    2194 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.

    I should not be "down a reward tier" vs other players that have the exact same total gp as I do.

    Sure I'm getting better rewards compared to division 2 because I have 4m gp. I get much better than the division 3 guys with 3.3m gp that I'm fighting against. That doesn't address the inequality between me at 4m gp and someone else at 4m gp who got matched vs others in division 2 rivals. they are not "down a tier".

    The problem is I have no control over if I'm matched with division 3 people who have no ships or if I'm matched with other division 2 people who have ships. At the end of the day my progress is limited because matchmaking and I lost once I drew an opponent who's division 3, no chance to 3ven compete vs my peers in division 2. That's a really bad design.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.

    I should not be "down a reward tier" vs other players that have the exact same total gp as I do.

    Sure I'm getting better rewards compared to division 2 because I have 4m gp. I get much better than the division 3 guys with 3.3m gp that I'm fighting against. That doesn't address the inequality between me at 4m gp and someone else at 4m gp who got matched vs others in division 2 rivals. they are not "down a tier".

    The problem is I have no control over if I'm matched with division 3 people who have no ships or if I'm matched with other division 2 people who have ships. At the end of the day my progress is limited because matchmaking and I lost once a drew an opponent who's division 3. That's a really bad design.

    you are not down a reward tier, and that would be impossible if they are at the same total GP as you. Total GP defines the reward tier.

    if your character GP is not high enough to get 8v8, then it is "fair" (for lack of a better term)

    if your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control.

    the fact that a player is being rewarded with a higher division due to total GP, but may progress slower than others in that division due to 6v6 matches due to their own character GP, is something they should look at, but still seems "fair"
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.

    I should not be "down a reward tier" vs other players that have the exact same total gp as I do.

    Sure I'm getting better rewards compared to division 2 because I have 4m gp. I get much better than the division 3 guys with 3.3m gp that I'm fighting against. That doesn't address the inequality between me at 4m gp and someone else at 4m gp who got matched vs others in division 2 rivals. they are not "down a tier".

    The problem is I have no control over if I'm matched with division 3 people who have no ships or if I'm matched with other division 2 people who have ships. At the end of the day my progress is limited because matchmaking and I lost once a drew an opponent who's division 3. That's a really bad design.

    you are not down a reward tier, and that would be impossible if they are at the same total GP as you. Total GP defines the reward tier.

    if your character GP is not high enough to get 8v8, then it is "fair" (for lack of a better term)

    if your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control.

    the fact that a player is being rewarded with a higher division due to total GP, but may progress slower than others in that division due to 6v6 matches due to their own character GP, is something they should look at, but still seems "fair"

    Why do you refer to character GP being high enough for 6v6 or 8v8? 6v6 or 8v8 is determined by matchmaking which is based on character gp, yes but the DIVISION of who I fight against is not.

    Option 1, 8v8
    I'm matched against other division 2 players with 2.5 toons 1.5 ships

    Option 2, 6v6
    I'm matched against Division 3 players with 2.5 toon and 1m ships

    In both option 1 and 2 I'm competing vs other division 2 players in league but in option 2 my points are limited since the DIVISION of my opponent.

    You did get it right when you said

    “your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control. ”
  • People seem to be completely missing the point here with divisions and leagues... yes, you can be division 2 and fight people in division 3. If that wasn’t the case, we would hear the opposite complaint that it isn’t fair that total GP is used for divisions because someone with 2.5M toon GP can go up against someone with 3M toon GP based on ship investment. Sure, the theoretical max score can be less for certain cases within a division, but you are also matched with people who have a closer toon GP, giving you better odds of winning.

    Now, if there was a case of someone in Div 2 who had almost no ship investment being in a group with someone in Div 3 with heavy ship investment and they were only given 6 defenses, I could see a problem.
  • BobcatSkywalker
    2194 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    People seem to be completely missing the point here with divisions and leagues... yes, you can be division 2 and fight people in division 3. If that wasn’t the case, we would hear the opposite complaint that it isn’t fair that total GP is used for divisions because someone with 2.5M toon GP can go up against someone with 3M toon GP based on ship investment. Sure, the theoretical max score can be less for certain cases within a division, but you are also matched with people who have a closer toon GP, giving you better odds of winning.

    Now, if there was a case of someone in Div 2 who had almost no ship investment being in a group with someone in Div 3 with heavy ship investment and they were only given 6 defenses, I could see a problem.

    Ironic your missed the point completely.

    I won every battle with undermanned at full life and protection. I'm still 500+ points out of the top spots in division 2 all because my opponent didn't have enough ship GP to qualify him for division 2 so only 6 battles since he is division 3. We both have 2.5m toon gp.

    I'm penalized in a squad only GA because my opponents lack of ships, that is design flaw 100% no matter how u look at it.

    Other people in division 2 with 2.5m character GP got matched vs other people like me with 2.5m gp all division 2, all 8 battles.
    ^^^^^ This is how it should work for everyone in division 2.

    Again I'm screwed because I got matched vs a guy with a squad heavy roster and no ships therefore he is division 3.
  • nabokovfan
    535 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    When GAC was first announced, first brought out one of my questions posted right away was wanting to have a breakdown of matchmaking. I can tell you, from my first match (that I didn't get to fight because I had the glitch) I should've easily defeated my opponent. We are spending all of this time discussing GP and matchmaking, divisions, but I think it is very necessary to break down exactly what we are going to be matched against.

    The algorithm doesn't seem to equate gear nearly heavy enough. I'm curious, vaguely, what parameters are being used for matchmaking in GAC, how it has been "improved" after GA. Perhaps if we all understand how we are matched, then we can further discuss the breakdown of league placement, progression, divisions, leaderboards, and GP brackets.

    I would encourage an FAQ for matchmaking be put together. Something a bit more in depth than what we've been given before.
  • Gak
    6 posts Member
    I think the distinction is that 6v6 or 8v8 is not determined by division but by gp. So if your character gp warrants 6v6 you get moved down with others of the same character gp doing 6v6 as that is the number of squads they have calculated your character gp should be able to handle. If they chose to separate divisions by character gp only, you as the lower character gp would drop to a lower division and get less promotion rewards and still do 6v6. If it’s divided as is and were matched within your division, you would potentially not have a character gp to match with and be matched against someone with higher character gp.
  • Gak wrote: »
    I think the distinction is that 6v6 or 8v8 is not determined by division but by gp. So if your character gp warrants 6v6 you get moved down with others of the same character gp doing 6v6 as that is the number of squads they have calculated your character gp should be able to handle. If they chose to separate divisions by character gp only, you as the lower character gp would drop to a lower division and get less promotion rewards and still do 6v6. If it’s divided as is and were matched within your division, you would potentially not have a character gp to match with and be matched against someone with higher character gp.

    I'd really like to see the new determination for number of squads in each GP bracket. The old chart doesn't match up anymore it seems.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.

    I should not be "down a reward tier" vs other players that have the exact same total gp as I do.

    Sure I'm getting better rewards compared to division 2 because I have 4m gp. I get much better than the division 3 guys with 3.3m gp that I'm fighting against. That doesn't address the inequality between me at 4m gp and someone else at 4m gp who got matched vs others in division 2 rivals. they are not "down a tier".

    The problem is I have no control over if I'm matched with division 3 people who have no ships or if I'm matched with other division 2 people who have ships. At the end of the day my progress is limited because matchmaking and I lost once a drew an opponent who's division 3. That's a really bad design.

    you are not down a reward tier, and that would be impossible if they are at the same total GP as you. Total GP defines the reward tier.

    if your character GP is not high enough to get 8v8, then it is "fair" (for lack of a better term)

    if your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control.

    the fact that a player is being rewarded with a higher division due to total GP, but may progress slower than others in that division due to 6v6 matches due to their own character GP, is something they should look at, but still seems "fair"

    Why do you refer to character GP being high enough for 6v6 or 8v8? 6v6 or 8v8 is determined by matchmaking which is based on character gp, yes but the DIVISION of who I fight against is not.

    Option 1, 8v8
    I'm matched against other division 2 players with 2.5 toons 1.5 ships

    Option 2, 6v6
    I'm matched against Division 3 players with 2.5 toon and 1m ships

    In both option 1 and 2 I'm competing vs other division 2 players in league but in option 2 my points are limited since the DIVISION of my opponent.

    You did get it right when you said

    “your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control. ”

    There are 2 ways a player can end up being point limited.

    1- they dont have enough character GP to do 8v8 - that is kind of fair

    2- they get matched against someone that forces them be 6v6 but they should be 8v8 - not fair

    both should be looked at to minimize but the IMO the only one that is truly a problem is 2.

    either way the players are still getting rewards for their division, a player may not progress as fast as others in their division, but rewards are likely to be good enough to drive players to build up to the next division.

    this still leaves no reason to not develop ships if it helps you get better rewards, and we still have the options open to later bring in ships in the map.
  • walls of text.
  • Gak wrote: »
    I think the distinction is that 6v6 or 8v8 is not determined by division but by gp. So if your character gp warrants 6v6 you get moved down with others of the same character gp doing 6v6 as that is the number of squads they have calculated your character gp should be able to handle. If they chose to separate divisions by character gp only, you as the lower character gp would drop to a lower division and get less promotion rewards and still do 6v6. If it’s divided as is and were matched within your division, you would potentially not have a character gp to match with and be matched against someone with higher character gp.

    The distinction is 6v6 or 8v8 is based on total GP, or your division, while the GA matchmaking is based on only character GP. This leads to matches between people with different total Gp, in different divisions, yet with the same character GP. It's random based on who you draw in GA.

    People with less character GP than me got to run 8v8. even people in my same GA 8 player bracket since we were some from division 2 and some from 3.

    If I was matched vs another division 2 player in my GA we would have done 8v8 because we are both division 2.

    Because I got matched vs the division 3 guy I only could do 6v6 because his DIVISION was 3, this limits my points and makes it impossible to compete with others in division 2, some in the same GA as me.

    So because I'm matched vs the guy who sandbagged ships I get screwed out of 2 extra battles. I have 150+ 7* and almost 100+ G11 and 12s. I'm fully capable of 8v8, I've played in and won 8v8 GA in the past.
  • rokota
    166 posts Member
    there is a simple solution, and i guess, cg will change it after the exhibitions:

    If it's a squad only, than squad-GP should be used for both, matchmaking AND divisions!

    And the division-brackets should be small enough so everyone inside would have the same amount of slots to set defense.
  • rokota wrote: »
    there is a simple solution, and i guess, cg will change it after the exhibitions:

    If it's a squad only, than squad-GP should be used for both, matchmaking AND divisions!

    And the division-brackets should be small enough so everyone inside would have the same amount of slots to set defense.

    And then rotate between layouts with ships, only characters, and the same 5v5 or 3v3 layouts?

    The matchmaking shouldn't be so difficult, neither should the separation between divisions and actual leaderboards for the division.

    If (division = X)
    SearchGP(X)
    If (division = Y)
    SearchGP(Y)
    Else
    SearchGP(Z)

    SearchGP(X)
    If (GP is +/- 5%)
    CheckGear(X)
    Else
    SearchGP(X+5%)

    Then you check qty of gear12s, zetas, mods, whatever need be.
  • Gair
    616 posts Member
    nabokovfan wrote: »
    rokota wrote: »
    there is a simple solution, and i guess, cg will change it after the exhibitions:

    If it's a squad only, than squad-GP should be used for both, matchmaking AND divisions!

    And the division-brackets should be small enough so everyone inside would have the same amount of slots to set defense.

    And then rotate between layouts with ships, only characters, and the same 5v5 or 3v3 layouts?

    The matchmaking shouldn't be so difficult, neither should the separation between divisions and actual leaderboards for the division.

    If (division = X)
    SearchGP(X)
    If (division = Y)
    SearchGP(Y)
    Else
    SearchGP(Z)

    SearchGP(X)
    If (GP is +/- 5%)
    CheckGear(X)
    Else
    SearchGP(X+5%)

    Then you check qty of gear12s, zetas, mods, whatever need be.

    They need to correct the weights of stats relative to power for GP to work correctly with mods. Right now you could have hundreds of mods, literally hundreds or thousands of speeds faster with variably no difference in GP.

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