New Sandbag GAC League Progression Tactic

Replies

  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.

    I should not be "down a reward tier" vs other players that have the exact same total gp as I do.

    Sure I'm getting better rewards compared to division 2 because I have 4m gp. I get much better than the division 3 guys with 3.3m gp that I'm fighting against. That doesn't address the inequality between me at 4m gp and someone else at 4m gp who got matched vs others in division 2 rivals. they are not "down a tier".

    The problem is I have no control over if I'm matched with division 3 people who have no ships or if I'm matched with other division 2 people who have ships. At the end of the day my progress is limited because matchmaking and I lost once a drew an opponent who's division 3. That's a really bad design.

    you are not down a reward tier, and that would be impossible if they are at the same total GP as you. Total GP defines the reward tier.

    if your character GP is not high enough to get 8v8, then it is "fair" (for lack of a better term)

    if your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control.

    the fact that a player is being rewarded with a higher division due to total GP, but may progress slower than others in that division due to 6v6 matches due to their own character GP, is something they should look at, but still seems "fair"

    Your logic is fatally flawed in this one. Ships is a full part of the game, yet they chose not to include it because for whatever reason whales don't like ships as much. Meanwhile people like me who have a meta ship fleet and 2 good back up fleets have zero ROI in GAC.

    There needs to be a ship defense area or ship GP cannot factor into the division, matchmaking, or rewards.

    It is not "fair" that ships bump you into a tier that you fundamentally cannot progess in because you are placing and attacking less slots, but then provide no other value or advantage.

    This entire thing, critical errors aside, is very poorly designed.
  • So I haven’t heard anyone give the most obvious solution yet: make all matches 8 v 8, regardless of GP. Even playing field for all.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    I don't think the new algo is even active...as if it was active it should be doing something and current picture looks exactly like GA. So all this talk should turn out completely redundant since this is an exhibition match only and I don't see it in myself to believe this is really the new algo unless CG comes out and says it is.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    If we get the same picture on 5 week exhibition though, it's time to talk. We don't even know new GAC is intended to work without fleets, 1 week one says nothing either way. It's a pretty good time to just shush and see if CG says anything and see the 5 week one first before hyperboling till all eternity.

    This cross division play also looks ameteurishly designed to me when it can be easily fixed before releasing it as such. But we also don't know if this is how a full GAC is.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    If we get the same picture on 5 week exhibition though, it's time to talk. We don't even know new GAC is intended to work without fleets, 1 week one says nothing either way. It's a pretty good time to just shush and see if CG says anything and see the 5 week one first before hyperboling till all eternity.

    This cross division play also looks ameteurishly designed to me when it can be easily fixed before releasing it as such. But we also don't know if this is how a full GAC is.

    You say it's too early to tell because we don't know, but we do know because @CG_SBCrumb said,

    "Through exhibition and Championship 1, Grand Arena Championships are going to run exclusively in the 5v5 format, with characters only. We’re considering mixing 3v3 and Ships in soon after, but for now we’re sticking with a “purer” format."

    So GAC will be without ships, it's 100% confirmed.

    So why is division decided by Total GP? (characters plus all ships)

    There is no need for the current cross division play that prevents many players from progressing to Kyber League across all divisions.

    SOLUTION:
    A) use character GP for divisions and matchmaking when GAC is without ships.

    B) Use total GP for divisions and matchmaking when GAC has ships.

    @CG_SBCrumb also said there are plans to reward the top players (Kyber League) of each division with special rewards.

    ^^^^^^
    This is concerning considering progression to Kyber is impossible for anyone who gets matched into cross division play and can't set as many defenses as other players in their same division. They say they wanted feedback so this thread pretty much gives a highly detailed explanation of the consequences of cross division play, and how to solve the problem.
  • This is the first I've heard of this, and wow, how flawed. There's a new competitive PVP mode, and some players get more attacks than their opponents. Because of things they cannot control. Making certain matchups unwinnable even with perfect play, unless the opponent simply doesn't do anything. In a competitive PVP game mode.

    I picture a basketball game in which one team somehow makes 100% of its shots and still loses. Or a baseball game in which one team's batters are out after 5 strikes and the other other team's batters are out after 3. Or any team sport with one team able to have more more people in play than the others. There's a reason those things don't exist: there is only true competition if there's fundamental fairness, and here we literally have teams playing against each other with different rules.

    It's honestly cringeworthy watching people defend this one.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    If we get the same picture on 5 week exhibition though, it's time to talk. We don't even know new GAC is intended to work without fleets, 1 week one says nothing either way. It's a pretty good time to just shush and see if CG says anything and see the 5 week one first before hyperboling till all eternity.

    This cross division play also looks ameteurishly designed to me when it can be easily fixed before releasing it as such. But we also don't know if this is how a full GAC is.

    You say it's too early to tell because we don't know, but we do know because @CG_SBCrumb said,

    "Through exhibition and Championship 1, Grand Arena Championships are going to run exclusively in the 5v5 format, with characters only. We’re considering mixing 3v3 and Ships in soon after, but for now we’re sticking with a “purer” format."

    So GAC will be without ships, it's 100% confirmed.

    So why is division decided by Total GP? (characters plus all ships)

    There is no need for the current cross division play that prevents many players from progressing to Kyber League across all divisions.

    SOLUTION:
    A) use character GP for divisions and matchmaking when GAC is without ships.

    B) Use total GP for divisions and matchmaking when GAC has ships.

    @CG_SBCrumb also said there are plans to reward the top players (Kyber League) of each division with special rewards.

    ^^^^^^
    This is concerning considering progression to Kyber is impossible for anyone who gets matched into cross division play and can't set as many defenses as other players in their same division. They say they wanted feedback so this thread pretty much gives a highly detailed explanation of the consequences of cross division play, and how to solve the problem.

    Ah ok then, I agree no ships=all the system should work in a way not involving anything related to ships.

    My worry is rather related to new matchmaking being in place or not. That's purely unclear to me.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.

    I should not be "down a reward tier" vs other players that have the exact same total gp as I do.

    Sure I'm getting better rewards compared to division 2 because I have 4m gp. I get much better than the division 3 guys with 3.3m gp that I'm fighting against. That doesn't address the inequality between me at 4m gp and someone else at 4m gp who got matched vs others in division 2 rivals. they are not "down a tier".

    The problem is I have no control over if I'm matched with division 3 people who have no ships or if I'm matched with other division 2 people who have ships. At the end of the day my progress is limited because matchmaking and I lost once a drew an opponent who's division 3. That's a really bad design.

    you are not down a reward tier, and that would be impossible if they are at the same total GP as you. Total GP defines the reward tier.

    if your character GP is not high enough to get 8v8, then it is "fair" (for lack of a better term)

    if your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control.

    the fact that a player is being rewarded with a higher division due to total GP, but may progress slower than others in that division due to 6v6 matches due to their own character GP, is something they should look at, but still seems "fair"

    Your logic is fatally flawed in this one. Ships is a full part of the game, yet they chose not to include it because for whatever reason whales don't like ships as much. Meanwhile people like me who have a meta ship fleet and 2 good back up fleets have zero ROI in GAC.

    There needs to be a ship defense area or ship GP cannot factor into the division, matchmaking, or rewards.

    It is not "fair" that ships bump you into a tier that you fundamentally cannot progess in because you are placing and attacking less slots, but then provide no other value or advantage.

    This entire thing, critical errors aside, is very poorly designed.

    You rewards bracket is based on your total GP which includes ships, but you are matched on character GP.

    That means you are rewarded for your investment in ships.

    They have also stated they will consider ships in GAC, but not at this time.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.

    I should not be "down a reward tier" vs other players that have the exact same total gp as I do.

    Sure I'm getting better rewards compared to division 2 because I have 4m gp. I get much better than the division 3 guys with 3.3m gp that I'm fighting against. That doesn't address the inequality between me at 4m gp and someone else at 4m gp who got matched vs others in division 2 rivals. they are not "down a tier".

    The problem is I have no control over if I'm matched with division 3 people who have no ships or if I'm matched with other division 2 people who have ships. At the end of the day my progress is limited because matchmaking and I lost once a drew an opponent who's division 3. That's a really bad design.

    you are not down a reward tier, and that would be impossible if they are at the same total GP as you. Total GP defines the reward tier.

    if your character GP is not high enough to get 8v8, then it is "fair" (for lack of a better term)

    if your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control.

    the fact that a player is being rewarded with a higher division due to total GP, but may progress slower than others in that division due to 6v6 matches due to their own character GP, is something they should look at, but still seems "fair"

    Your logic is fatally flawed in this one. Ships is a full part of the game, yet they chose not to include it because for whatever reason whales don't like ships as much. Meanwhile people like me who have a meta ship fleet and 2 good back up fleets have zero ROI in GAC.

    There needs to be a ship defense area or ship GP cannot factor into the division, matchmaking, or rewards.

    It is not "fair" that ships bump you into a tier that you fundamentally cannot progess in because you are placing and attacking less slots, but then provide no other value or advantage.

    This entire thing, critical errors aside, is very poorly designed.

    You rewards bracket is based on your total GP which includes ships, but you are matched on character GP.

    That means you are rewarded for your investment in ships.

    They have also stated they will consider ships in GAC, but not at this time.

    @Kyno not sure if u saw it but Rewards are actually based on division and league progression.

    You conveniently left out that rewards get better with higher leagues!

    I have 2.5m toon GP set 6 defenses.

    Guildmate with 2.3m toon GP set 8 defenses.

    why because rng.

    He got about 500 more points than me per round, that's 6,000 points across a GAC certainly enough to cause me to get a lesser league because the system is flawed.

    It's amazing how you leave out key details to make a point so just wanted to clear that up. Maybe you get it now?

    Bad matchmaking (cross division) Rng shouldn't determine my max points to progress leagues within my division.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno:

    It has everything to do with it.

    In the OP's case there are only 6 defenses to set and only 6 teams to beat on offense. Your maximum possible points are therefore lower, even if you do everything right. This is the case because of the OP's toon GP.

    If you were compared only to other teams with 6def/6attacks, that would be fine. But your score - the points you earn, not just the number of opponents you beat - is compared to others in your same division. But others in the OP's same division will have had 8def / 8 attacks because their ratio of toon GP to ship GP is more heavily weighted toward toons. Even if these players with more defenses and attacks are much less than perfect, they get more points. They start out better just for setting defenses than you did, and if they defeat all their opposing squads on the 2nd try and none on the first try, the bonus points that they get for defeating those extra 2 squads (about 100) more than outweighs the points that they lose for using 2 squads to defeat each enemy (20 points for 1st try victory - 15 points for 2nd try victory = 5 point differential. 5 x 6 = 30 points, the most the OP could improve on the score of these division rivals).

    The ship GP thus fails to help you in your GAC matchup, but it does mean that your performance is compared against others in your same league who got extra points on defense and extra chances to earn points on offense and thus kicked your ****.

    Good players with only 6+6 chances to earn points will always lose against good players with 8+8 chances to earn points.

    In the OP's scenario, you are set up to fail. To sum up, the reason you are set up to fail is because
    1. Your opportunities to earn points are based on Toon GP only,
    2. For league ranking your total points earned are compared against other players within your Division.
    3. Division is determined by Toon + Ship GP.

    It is the distinction between "matchups" (which determine the number of defense/attack opportunities solely on toon GP), "League" (where standings benefit from more opportunities to defend and attack and are determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) and "Division" (which includes players that have different numbers of opportunities to defend and attack and is determined by Toon GP + Ship GP) which creates the problem.

    All players in the same division must have the same number of defend/attack opportunities or the standings simply aren't fair.

    ...
    Now, I understand that this is a result of the fact that they revamped earlier GA matching algorithms that paired people by total GP even during Toon-only rounds. That did need to be fixed.

    However, EA/CG then neglected to anticipate how that would interact with GAC Division/League rules. The problem isn't the matchups on their own. It's not the divisions on their own. The interaction is a huge problem, however, and needs attention that it clearly didn't get.

    The quick and dirty solution would be to ban ships from GAC, and then Division, League, and Matchups could all be decided by GP only, and you'd never get a conflict. There may be other solutions, but I'm not sure what they would be.

    Players are rewarded by being moved up to a higher division due to their investment in ships, but are going to progress slower due to their investment being lower in characters. That seems ok.

    the times where this would not be ok, is when a player could battle at an even division but is forced to play down a tier as they have explained could happen.

    if this was characters only, they could be lowered a reward tier. which defeats the purpose and leads back to sandbagging and other things. if anything they should have more divisions to really reward roster progress.

    we also have not seen true rewards, being up a division could really make a difference, even if they end up down a tier.

    I should not be "down a reward tier" vs other players that have the exact same total gp as I do.

    Sure I'm getting better rewards compared to division 2 because I have 4m gp. I get much better than the division 3 guys with 3.3m gp that I'm fighting against. That doesn't address the inequality between me at 4m gp and someone else at 4m gp who got matched vs others in division 2 rivals. they are not "down a tier".

    The problem is I have no control over if I'm matched with division 3 people who have no ships or if I'm matched with other division 2 people who have ships. At the end of the day my progress is limited because matchmaking and I lost once a drew an opponent who's division 3. That's a really bad design.

    you are not down a reward tier, and that would be impossible if they are at the same total GP as you. Total GP defines the reward tier.

    if your character GP is not high enough to get 8v8, then it is "fair" (for lack of a better term)

    if your character GP is enough to be at 8v8, but you are "forced" to do a 6v6 because of your opponent, then that is unfair and should be addressed as that slows your progress but is outside of your control.

    the fact that a player is being rewarded with a higher division due to total GP, but may progress slower than others in that division due to 6v6 matches due to their own character GP, is something they should look at, but still seems "fair"

    Your logic is fatally flawed in this one. Ships is a full part of the game, yet they chose not to include it because for whatever reason whales don't like ships as much. Meanwhile people like me who have a meta ship fleet and 2 good back up fleets have zero ROI in GAC.

    There needs to be a ship defense area or ship GP cannot factor into the division, matchmaking, or rewards.

    It is not "fair" that ships bump you into a tier that you fundamentally cannot progess in because you are placing and attacking less slots, but then provide no other value or advantage.

    This entire thing, critical errors aside, is very poorly designed.

    You rewards bracket is based on your total GP which includes ships, but you are matched on character GP.

    That means you are rewarded for your investment in ships.

    They have also stated they will consider ships in GAC, but not at this time.

    Kyno not sure if u saw it but Rewards are actually based on division and league progression.

    You conveniently left out that rewards get better with higher leagues!

    I have 2.5m toon GP set 6 defenses.

    Guildmate with 2.3m toon GP set 8 defenses.

    why because rng.

    He got about 500 more points than me per round, that's 6,000 points across a GAC certainly enough to cause me to get a lesser league because the system is flawed.

    It's amazing how you leave out key details to make a point so just wanted to clear that up. Maybe you get it now?

    Bad matchmaking (cross division) Rng shouldn't determine my max points to progress leagues within my division.

    Correct it is based on Division and your progression there in. Division rewards development overall and progress rewards PvP development.

    I already said I agree that players that can battle at 8v8, but are forced to battle at 6v6 is not fair and should be looked at to minimize. Not sure what you are pointing out.
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Good news, we all got the same rewards so you don't have to worry about this!
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Good news, we all got the same rewards so you don't have to worry about this!

    This makes me more worried.....
  • You guys realize that the purpose of GAC being an exhibition is to see both coding problems and logistical problems?

    Why not use the "wait and see" strategy while they fix it and stop pretending like the sky is falling?

    You think you're the 1st person to make a post claiming something new they unveiled will ruin the game? Pro-tip: every single person that claimed that something would ruin the game has been wrong. You will be no different.
  • You guys realize that the purpose of GAC being an exhibition is to see both coding problems and logistical problems?

    Why not use the "wait and see" strategy while they fix it and stop pretending like the sky is falling?

    You think you're the 1st person to make a post claiming something new they unveiled will ruin the game? Pro-tip: every single person that claimed that something would ruin the game has been wrong. You will be no different.

    No, I'm not the first person but the point of this post isn't GAC will ruin the game, GAC is actually cool and good for the game.


    I'm posting about matchmaking, specifically cross division and Ships impact because they asked for feedback. If you don't like it you don't need to come here and comment in the first place.

    The sky isn't falling but cross division matchups are the opposite of fair because they limit progression and such design flaws need to be fixed before we can actually wait and see how a exhibition pans out.

    There's no point waiting and seeing how bad it actually is over a whole month when we can see on day GA 1 ROUND 1 that it severely cripples people with 6 defenses.

    I never claimed this mode or update will ruin the game so just get out of here with your hysteria and learn how to read before making ridiculous posts.
  • NicWester
    8928 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sorry, but ships can be used to move you up a division, which means better rewards.

    Being matched against players by only characters GP, again makes ship investment a wash for the most part.

    I agree with the other part, if you play down a division then you are at a disadvantage, but sandbagging ships hurts you not helps you.

    I kind of think it's still in your advantage. If you're matched down a division, chances are you have a better roster than the folks below you meaning you're more likely to win each individual round, which will give you more per-round points and move you up the ranks faster.

    Unless you were going to go 3-0 in your intra-divisional matches, which is something we can't measure since it doesn't happen by definition, you probably wind up profiting a little bit.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    You guys realize that the purpose of GAC being an exhibition is to see both coding problems and logistical problems?

    Why not use the "wait and see" strategy while they fix it and stop pretending like the sky is falling?

    You think you're the 1st person to make a post claiming something new they unveiled will ruin the game? Pro-tip: every single person that claimed that something would ruin the game has been wrong. You will be no different.

    No, I'm not the first person but the point of this post isn't GAC will ruin the game, GAC is actually cool and good for the game.


    I'm posting about matchmaking, specifically cross division and Ships impact because they asked for feedback. If you don't like it you don't need to come here and comment in the first place.

    The sky isn't falling but cross division matchups are the opposite of fair because they limit progression and such design flaws need to be fixed before we can actually wait and see how a exhibition pans out.

    There's no point waiting and seeing how bad it actually is over a whole month when we can see on day GA 1 ROUND 1 that it severely cripples people with 6 defenses.

    I never claimed this mode or update will ruin the game so just get out of here with your hysteria and learn how to read before making ridiculous posts.

    There's a point. You saw the new matchmaking algo announcement and their intention with it. From what you saw last night, did you see any indication other than toon GP matching? That announcement and this outcome doesn't align even one bit.
  • Xerrath
    177 posts Member
    If your going to bracket people in divisions why not just lock the amount to teams placed by the the division your in?

    Division 1 10v10
    Division 2 8v8
    Division3/4 6v6
    Division 5/6/7 5v5
    Etc.

    Also divisions may need to be looked at as far as the GP sizes and Maybe add a couple more divisons.

    Wouldn’t this solve the issues of the defense and make it so you only play against people within your division.

    You don’t send send high school teams to play vs college teams and you don’t play college teams vs pro teams. Even if the players on each team are good enough to be in that league.
  • Suggestion to solve the actual problem... Git gud!
  • Actually agree with kyno for first time ever 😂😂

    The person chose to prioritise ships but has weaker squads, why should they compete with people with much better squads and higher squad GP?

    And easy way to solve this is to unequip all mods from pilots.
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sorry, but ships can be used to move you up a division, which means better rewards.

    Being matched against players by only characters GP, again makes ship investment a wash for the most part.

    I agree with the other part, if you play down a division then you are at a disadvantage, but sandbagging ships hurts you not helps you.

  • MetlaZhizni
    46 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    Gosh, looks like some people don’t get the problem:
    SHIP GP HURTS GAC.

    Facts:
    1. Division is determined via total GP
    2. Points needed to climb leagues determined by division
    3. Number of teams in GA determined by character GP
    4. Number of teams have a huge impact on possible points you can get.

    So, ship GP would lead to higher requirements for league promotions while not increasing your ability to gain points.

    Therefore you’ll want 0 ship GP for character-only GAC for best performance.
  • CCyrilS
    6732 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    Gosh, looks like some people don’t get the problem:
    SHIP GP HURTS GAC.

    Facts:
    1. Division is determined via total GP
    2. Points needed to climb leagues determined by division
    3. Number of teams in GA determined by character GP
    4. Number of teams have a huge impact on possible points you can get.

    So, ship GP would lead to higher requirements for league promotions while not increasing your ability to gain points.

    Therefore you’ll want 0 ship GP for character-only GAC for best performance.

    This is impossible to know before knowing what the rewards in each division and league are.
  • Fair point. But difference between 6 and 8 teams is 33% points, so if rewards for lower leagues on higher division exceeds top leagues on previous division (which I really doubt)
  • BobcatSkywalker
    2194 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    CCyrilS wrote: »
    Gosh, looks like some people don’t get the problem:
    SHIP GP HURTS GAC.

    Facts:
    1. Division is determined via total GP
    2. Points needed to climb leagues determined by division
    3. Number of teams in GA determined by character GP
    4. Number of teams have a huge impact on possible points you can get.

    So, ship GP would lead to higher requirements for league promotions while not increasing your ability to gain points.

    Therefore you’ll want 0 ship GP for character-only GAC for best performance.

    This is impossible to know before knowing what the rewards in each division and league are.

    Rewards do not even matter. this impacts people's ability to progress against their peers in a fair competition.

    the entire progression system is unfair if some people get less opportunity to score points simply because they are matched against someone with low ship GP.

    Players have no control over who they get matched against.

  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    NicWester wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sorry, but ships can be used to move you up a division, which means better rewards.

    Being matched against players by only characters GP, again makes ship investment a wash for the most part.

    I agree with the other part, if you play down a division then you are at a disadvantage, but sandbagging ships hurts you not helps you.

    I kind of think it's still in your advantage. If you're matched down a division, chances are you have a better roster than the folks below you meaning you're more likely to win each individual round, which will give you more per-round points and move you up the ranks faster.

    Unless you were going to go 3-0 in your intra-divisional matches, which is something we can't measure since it doesn't happen by definition, you probably wind up profiting a little bit.

    if you think it is, then you do you, but I would imagine that advantage will fall into the same category as simming in groups of 3. the feeling and the actual advantage are 2 different things.
  • Jarvind
    3920 posts Member
    Without reading the OP, just based on the length and amount of caps lock I am 99% confident it is pre-emptively stressing about some weird hypothetical edge case that will rarely if ever happen in practice.
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  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Gosh, looks like some people don’t get the problem:
    SHIP GP HURTS GAC.

    Facts:
    1. Division is determined via total GP
    2. Points needed to climb leagues determined by division
    3. Number of teams in GA determined by character GP
    4. Number of teams have a huge impact on possible points you can get.

    So, ship GP would lead to higher requirements for league promotions while not increasing your ability to gain points.

    Therefore you’ll want 0 ship GP for character-only GAC for best performance.

    and you leave out the biggest thing. sure "higher req to move up leagues", but already at higher base rewards.

    again, nothing is for sure until we know the rewards.

    you absolutely do not want 0 ship GP, that will most definitely keep you in a lower reward bracket.
  • Viserys
    461 posts Member
    Plain and simple, if I will be rated against other members of my division there should be absolutely no circumstance in which I have fewer opportunities to earn points.
  • VonZant
    3843 posts Member
    I have 2.5m toon GP set 6 defenses.

    Guildmate with 2.3m toon GP set 8 defenses.

    why because rng.

    This thread hurts my head, but this portion is concerning to me. I dont see how that can or should happen.

    I'm not so worried about the points issue, but if a person that can field 8 good teams is forced to fight against a person that can only field 6 and they are limited to 6, that actually hurts the person with the stronger roster because it artificially levels the playing field.

    Just spitballing: I dont think they will or should release the algorithm as then it can be gamed.

    BUT, I would be curious how it would perform if the matchmaking algorithm was as simple as the discord bot output. You would probably have to weight mods very low or not at all, because they are a huge variable, but if the rest of the items were toggle flags or +/- 5%-ish, how good would it be? Might be interesting to see.
  • BobcatSkywalker
    2194 posts Member
    edited June 2019
    VonZant wrote: »
    I have 2.5m toon GP set 6 defenses.

    Guildmate with 2.3m toon GP set 8 defenses.

    why because rng.

    This thread hurts my head, but this portion is concerning to me. I dont see how that can or should happen.

    I'm not so worried about the points issue, but if a person that can field 8 good teams is forced to fight against a person that can only field 6 and they are limited to 6, that actually hurts the person with the stronger roster because it artificially levels the playing field.

    Just spitballing: I dont think they will or should release the algorithm as then it can be gamed.

    BUT, I would be curious how it would perform if the matchmaking algorithm was as simple as the discord bot output. You would probably have to weight mods very low or not at all, because they are a huge variable, but if the rest of the items were toggle flags or +/- 5%-ish, how good would it be? Might be interesting to see.

    To Give you more details

    The rng is....

    I was matched against an opponent with 2.5m character gp but not enough ships to meet division 2 therefore limiting my battles to 6 since he was division 3.

    Other people with 2.3m character gp got matched against people with a lot of ships so they could do 8 battles and progress normally in division 2 leagues.

    so players have their max points possible randomly limited by capping battles which hurts league progression which is directly tied to rewards so imo it's a major problem unless addressed.
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