Put an end to guilds sandbagging in TW

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CG,
You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now. A guild should not be able to drop a bunch of dummy alt accounts to lower their guild GP into a more favorable matchup while their player GP is an average of 500k to 1 million higher than the other guild. Plus it lessens the amount of teams the other guild can place which makes it impossible to defend against the sandbagging guild.

This is an exploitation of your matchmaking system and therefore is a way for guilds to cheat. If you choose not to address this then you are being hypocritical about your anti-cheating stance. Sandbagging ruins the TW experience for those who are trying to play the game the right way and don't want to force guild members to sit out of a TW just so we can get a win. My guild has faced 5 guilds that have sandbagged in a row. It's draining knowing you have no chance because the other guild cheated and on top of that makes completing some quests that require TW wins near impossible.

Please remedy this problem

Replies

  • mikak
    12 posts Member
    edited July 1
    Do you mean that if our avg GP is 2.4M and we have taken 3 starter accounts (avg 380K GP) to our guild because we had space ,they wouldn't be able to participate to TW?
    Post edited by mikak on
  • No I'm saying you shouldn't force them to sit out so they don't hamper your chances at a win.

    In the upper tiers where my guild resides it is usually alternate accounts that they drop that essentially are only there to gain tickets, fill gear requests, and such. Dropping them allows that guild to be placed against a guild with a lower GP than them. Their rosters are far more stacked and can easily make up for less participants because they realistically should not be in this matchup due to an exploit of the matchmaking system
  • TVF
    16330 posts Member
    How would they police this?
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Waqui
    5864 posts Member
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?
  • Monitor guilds in the week leading up to a TW. Warn guilds that drop a significant amount players, punish if they ignore the warning. It should be pretty obvious what guilds are losing a players normally and what guilds are sandbagging.

    Another option are that they change matchmaking to go based off a guilds average member GP vs the total GP or adjust it somehow to fairly eliminate the problem.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?

    Definition of cheating is:
    "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

    Dropping players right before a TW with the intention of picking them back up after is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage in the matchmaking. It is plain and simple exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage compared to guilds who are trying to play without gaming the system
  • mikak
    12 posts Member
    As far as I know, matchmaking is based on those how participate and not the whole guild. So dropping them doesn't make any difference.
  • Waqui
    5864 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?

    Definition of cheating is:
    "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

    Dropping players right before a TW with the intention of picking them back up after is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage in the matchmaking. It is plain and simple exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage compared to guilds who are trying to play without gaming the system

    I'm sure that CG has a different definition than you do.
  • mikak wrote: »
    As far as I know, matchmaking is based on those how participate and not the whole guild. So dropping them doesn't make any difference.

    Yes it is. The problem with that is for example a guild with 45 five million GP players and 5 one million GP players equal = 230 million GP. Drop those 5 and you are down to 225 million GP which would pair you against a guild with 50 4.5 million GP. 500k difference per player and the opposing guild has to set less defense so they get double screwed.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?

    Definition of cheating is:
    "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

    Dropping players right before a TW with the intention of picking them back up after is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage in the matchmaking. It is plain and simple exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage compared to guilds who are trying to play without gaming the system

    I'm sure that CG has a different definition than you do.

    That's not my definition lol, I literally looked it up to prove the point that it is cheating by definition. Exploiting something to give yourself an unfair advantage is cheating
  • CCyrilS
    3100 posts Member
    mikak wrote: »
    As far as I know, matchmaking is based on those how participate and not the whole guild. So dropping them doesn't make any difference.

    Yes it is. The problem with that is for example a guild with 45 five million GP players and 5 one million GP players equal = 230 million GP. Drop those 5 and you are down to 225 million GP which would pair you against a guild with 50 4.5 million GP. 500k difference per player and the opposing guild has to set less defense so they get double screwed.

    One guild has 45 5m players. Another has 50 4.5m players... I don't see an issue. Anyone with over 4m should have plenty of relevant toons (unless you're a guild of 50 numbskulls). Is it possible your guild is just bad at TW?
  • Waqui
    5864 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?

    Definition of cheating is:
    "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

    Dropping players right before a TW with the intention of picking them back up after is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage in the matchmaking. It is plain and simple exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage compared to guilds who are trying to play without gaming the system

    I'm sure that CG has a different definition than you do.

    That's not my definition lol, I literally looked it up to prove the point that it is cheating by definition. Exploiting something to give yourself an unfair advantage is cheating

    Looking it up in a dictionary doesn't help you much. CG's definition is all that matters.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?

    Definition of cheating is:
    "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

    Dropping players right before a TW with the intention of picking them back up after is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage in the matchmaking. It is plain and simple exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage compared to guilds who are trying to play without gaming the system

    I'm sure that CG has a different definition than you do.

    That's not my definition lol, I literally looked it up to prove the point that it is cheating by definition. Exploiting something to give yourself an unfair advantage is cheating

    Looking it up in a dictionary doesn't help you much. CG's definition is all that matters.

    I mean I guess that would be on par for CG, making up their own definition of words. I'm not here to debate what their definition may or may not be. I'm just stating that they said they were anti-cheating in regards to the new GAC, so that should carry over into all aspects of the game
  • CCyrilS wrote: »
    mikak wrote: »
    As far as I know, matchmaking is based on those how participate and not the whole guild. So dropping them doesn't make any difference.

    Yes it is. The problem with that is for example a guild with 45 five million GP players and 5 one million GP players equal = 230 million GP. Drop those 5 and you are down to 225 million GP which would pair you against a guild with 50 4.5 million GP. 500k difference per player and the opposing guild has to set less defense so they get double screwed.

    One guild has 45 5m players. Another has 50 4.5m players... I don't see an issue. Anyone with over 4m should have plenty of relevant toons (unless you're a guild of 50 numbskulls). Is it possible your guild is just bad at TW?

    My guild is not actually that high of GP, I was just trying to simplify the math so my explanation wouldn't look like a calculus equation. Maybe it doesn't affect the tip top of guilds who have 4.5 million GP average as they have all the meta toons and they both would just clear each other.

    The problem I'm seeing in my guild (185 million) and I'm assuming most other guilds who aren't sandbagging is that the opposing guilds average player GP is higher than most of our top GP players so where I could go toe to toe with any of their players despite being 200k or so under their average the majority of my guild is not gonna be able to because that difference in GP is closer to like 750k to 1 million. That makes a huge difference in TW vs a GA matchup.

    I just believe this is an error in CG's matchmaking system for TW that is being exploited to create an unfair advantage and it should be addressed
  • Waqui
    5864 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?

    Definition of cheating is:
    "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

    Dropping players right before a TW with the intention of picking them back up after is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage in the matchmaking. It is plain and simple exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage compared to guilds who are trying to play without gaming the system

    I'm sure that CG has a different definition than you do.

    That's not my definition lol, I literally looked it up to prove the point that it is cheating by definition. Exploiting something to give yourself an unfair advantage is cheating

    Looking it up in a dictionary doesn't help you much. CG's definition is all that matters.

    I mean I guess that would be on par for CG, making up their own definition of words. I'm not here to debate what their definition may or may not be. I'm just stating that they said they were anti-cheating in regards to the new GAC, so that should carry over into all aspects of the game

    Yes, CG are against cheating. They are not against 'sandbagging' in TW (or against that not all members of a guild join TW for whatever reason), since they don't consider that cheating. So, again:

    How is it cheating?
  • Waqui
    5864 posts Member
    edited July 8
    I just believe this is an error in CG's matchmaking system for TW that is being exploited to create an unfair advantage and it should be addressed

    How would you distinguish those guilds that do it strategicaly from those that don't all join for whatever other reason (inactivity, dislike of the game mode, forgetting to join etc.).

  • StarSon
    3733 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    I just believe this is an error in CG's matchmaking system for TW that is being exploited to create an unfair advantage and it should be addressed

    How would you distinguish those guilds that do it strategicaly from those that don't all join for whatever other reason (inactivity, dislike of the game mode, forgetting to join etc.).

    If they fixed matchmaking they wouldn't have to distinguish between the two.
  • CCyrilS
    3100 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?

    Definition of cheating is:
    "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

    Dropping players right before a TW with the intention of picking them back up after is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage in the matchmaking. It is plain and simple exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage compared to guilds who are trying to play without gaming the system

    I'm sure that CG has a different definition than you do.

    That's not my definition lol, I literally looked it up to prove the point that it is cheating by definition. Exploiting something to give yourself an unfair advantage is cheating

    Looking it up in a dictionary doesn't help you much. CG's definition is all that matters.

    I mean I guess that would be on par for CG, making up their own definition of words. I'm not here to debate what their definition may or may not be. I'm just stating that they said they were anti-cheating in regards to the new GAC, so that should carry over into all aspects of the game

    Remember "concurrently"?
  • I don't think guilds letting in low level alt accounts in is generally geared towards winning tw. I believe the reason is far more likely just to get raid tickets easier rather than having to constantly recruit.

    We had a few alt accounts in our guild for awhile because it helped our alt accounts grow faster and it had little downside. We had tb and all raids on farm. Typically, we asked that players didn't join tw becauae a 500k gp alt account didn't have a single team that could stand a chance of winning so leadership felt it would hurt our chances. But the increased rewards from raids and tb were more than enough to make up for the lack of tw rewards. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement.

    But with the new tb, there is an influx of players at higher gp wanting to move into higher gp guilds so we no longer allow alt accounts at least for now. Though that may change once the new tb is mastered.

    I don't think it is cheating. It is mostly the logic of it's better to have an alt account that generates raid tickets than to be chronically short 5 people.

    And I doubt CG considers it cheating. In fact, they have expressed interest in making incentives for bigger guilds to accept newer players in a recent interview.
  • Waqui
    5864 posts Member
    StarSon wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    I just believe this is an error in CG's matchmaking system for TW that is being exploited to create an unfair advantage and it should be addressed

    How would you distinguish those guilds that do it strategicaly from those that don't all join for whatever other reason (inactivity, dislike of the game mode, forgetting to join etc.).

    If they fixed matchmaking they wouldn't have to distinguish between the two.

    They don't distinguish with the current match making either, and it works fine.
  • StarSon
    3733 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    I just believe this is an error in CG's matchmaking system for TW that is being exploited to create an unfair advantage and it should be addressed

    How would you distinguish those guilds that do it strategicaly from those that don't all join for whatever other reason (inactivity, dislike of the game mode, forgetting to join etc.).

    If they fixed matchmaking they wouldn't have to distinguish between the two.

    They don't distinguish with the current match making either, and it works fine.

    If it worked fine it wouldn’t be possible to sandbag.
  • Waqui
    5864 posts Member
    StarSon wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    I just believe this is an error in CG's matchmaking system for TW that is being exploited to create an unfair advantage and it should be addressed

    How would you distinguish those guilds that do it strategicaly from those that don't all join for whatever other reason (inactivity, dislike of the game mode, forgetting to join etc.).

    If they fixed matchmaking they wouldn't have to distinguish between the two.

    They don't distinguish with the current match making either, and it works fine.

    If it worked fine it wouldn’t be possible to sandbag.

    Not all players are active every day. Some players dislike the game mode and don't want to participate. It's not all sandbagging.
  • StarSon
    3733 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    I just believe this is an error in CG's matchmaking system for TW that is being exploited to create an unfair advantage and it should be addressed

    How would you distinguish those guilds that do it strategicaly from those that don't all join for whatever other reason (inactivity, dislike of the game mode, forgetting to join etc.).

    If they fixed matchmaking they wouldn't have to distinguish between the two.

    They don't distinguish with the current match making either, and it works fine.

    If it worked fine it wouldn’t be possible to sandbag.

    Not all players are active every day. Some players dislike the game mode and don't want to participate. It's not all sandbagging.

    While I am aware it is not always done on purpose, I find it's easier to use the same word, since the matchmaking result is the same.
  • I understand that some players have conflict or just don't like the game mode but I believe it would be relatively easy to see who is and isn't purposefully sandbagging by accessing data over an extended number of TWs. Are the same people missing every time.

    The only option I can think of is that matchmaking system should take into account the guilds average GP per player on top of the guild GP as a whole and pair guilds that are more alike based on their average player's GP. That would eliminate most of the problem.
  • CCyrilS wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    CG,
    You claim to be anti-cheating and say you are doing what you can in that regard but guilds sandbagging in territory wars have been going on for well over 6 months now.

    Please explain how that is cheating?

    Definition of cheating is:
    "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

    Dropping players right before a TW with the intention of picking them back up after is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage in the matchmaking. It is plain and simple exploiting the system to gain an unfair advantage compared to guilds who are trying to play without gaming the system

    I'm sure that CG has a different definition than you do.

    That's not my definition lol, I literally looked it up to prove the point that it is cheating by definition. Exploiting something to give yourself an unfair advantage is cheating

    Looking it up in a dictionary doesn't help you much. CG's definition is all that matters.

    I mean I guess that would be on par for CG, making up their own definition of words. I'm not here to debate what their definition may or may not be. I'm just stating that they said they were anti-cheating in regards to the new GAC, so that should carry over into all aspects of the game

    Remember "concurrently"?

    Lol yeah we could go on and on about the communication blunders they have had.

    Maybe they don't consider sandbagging "cheating" by their definition but it is an exploitation of the matchmaking system and therefore needs to be addressed. Maybe we can start using the term "sandbagging" for infinite loop and then they might try to fix it
  • Waqui
    5864 posts Member
    I understand that some players have conflict or just don't like the game mode but I believe it would be relatively easy to see who is and isn't purposefully sandbagging by accessing data over an extended number of TWs. Are the same people missing every time.

    Ok, so if it's always the same players, who skip TW, it's acceptable? Even if guilds drop the same low GP members every TW to not have them influence the match-making? Or did you mean the other way around: If it's not always the same members, who skip TW every time, it's acceptable? Even if a guild has a rotation system, to rotate who sits out?

    Relatively easy, you say?

  • mikak
    12 posts Member
    edited July 10
    In current TW we have 120M GP avg is 2.5M. Enemy has total 145M GP avg 2.9M. We have 47 of 48 participating. Enemy has probably 38-39 because there are only 19 slots / territory. Are they sandbagging ? If they are, then it's not helping. We have just cleared all character territories and are going to hit the fleet. They are still fighting with our front row.
    There is more than GP in this game mode... :smile:
  • mikak wrote: »
    In current TW we have 120M GP avg is 2.5M. Enemy has total 145M GP avg 2.9M. We have 47 of 48 participating. Enemy has probably 38-39 because there are only 19 slots / territory. Are they sandbagging ? If they are, then it's not helping. We have just cleared all character territories and are going to hit the fleet. They are still fighting with our front row.
    There is more than GP in this game mode... :smile:

    Exactly this. (congrats on the win by the way). People use sandbagging as an excuse for not having the quality to GP ratio needed to compete in TW. As an extreme example imagine a 45 vs 50 member war.

    45 Darth revan / Malaks vs 50 Darth revan / Malaks / 45 JKR vs 50 JKR / 45 Traya vs 50 NS / 45 CLS, 45 JTR and 45 palp vs 50 Carth, 50 FO and 50 BH / 45 GG/padme/left over teams vs etc... etc...

    If you have less members you have less available counters. If you have more members you only have to defeat 45 of any specific defense team using your 50 available counter teams. Dropping players isn't always beneficial and is more often than not because of choices completely removed from trying to game the system to an advantage.

    By the way, my personal experience of this difference comes from my alt which is in a pretty casual guild that fluctuates around a consistent ~46 members (recruiting is a pain in the ***). Our unintentional but without fail "sandbagging" every single TW has won us a grand total of 1 in the last 10 TWs (and we are not that casual, we do actually try, we just don't have the quality to compete at 160mil GP). My main is in a higher GP guild with a strong TW focus and a mandatory 50/50 signup rule and has played many higher GP guilds with less members and hasn't lost a war this year.
  • mikak wrote: »
    In current TW we have 120M GP avg is 2.5M. Enemy has total 145M GP avg 2.9M. We have 47 of 48 participating. Enemy has probably 38-39 because there are only 19 slots / territory. Are they sandbagging ? If they are, then it's not helping. We have just cleared all character territories and are going to hit the fleet. They are still fighting with our front row.
    There is more than GP in this game mode... :smile:

    Well congrats I believe you to be in the minority based on my experience with my guild. I mean in technicality I would say that is sandbagging but it sounds more like the other guild just didn't care.

    I don't know if there is a perfect solution but I still believe there are a good number using this sandbagging strategy to ensure they win every TW they are placed in because their difference in average player GP means they have better rosters
  • Would individual roster focus not affect this as well?
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