If Rian Johnson was a SWGOH character...

Replies

  • chron
    88 posts Member
    Hmeh.How you view Luke really just depends on how you view Luke's character development in rotj.

    The problem as I see it is that in rotj, Luke finally learns that he must keep control in that last moment when he cuts vader's hand off and realizes what he'll become if he continues to let his emotions control him.

    Tlj takes his character development a step backwards and undoes what he learned in rotj in the flashback. They do the same with han solo in tfa. Thoughout the original trilogy, we see three movies of him growing from caring only about himself to caring about his friends and starting a family. Then suddenly he's abandoning his family and going back to his smuggling ways with no explanation.

    The same applies to Luke. The point of Rotj, was that he learned to control his emotions and not give into anger. Tge tlj undoes that by having him once again give into anger (though only temporarily) in the flashback scene.

    I can even see him giving up and going into hiding to await another to train to defeat snoke (that's what yoda did after being defeated by ep). You could even say that he matured enough to realize that he coukd do no more and that the will of the force demanded patience. Once again look at yoda and obiwan. They went into exile but had a plan. Luke just gave up. It may seem like a minor difference to some but it really is a huge difference.

    And in ep 7 it looked like that was the case, Luke had gone off to hide and eventually train Rey. I'm guessing that was at one point part of the plan. But in the last jedi they just decided that rey needed no training and made luke just give up instead.

    They could have even done a version of luke giving up at first and still eventually training Rey had they not arbitrarily put a 19hr space chase in the movie ensuring that everything had to happen within a day after the force awakens.

    It's just poor execution that no one asked why doesn't Rey need any training to become a jedi? Everyone else did. Anakin had years of training. Luke had at least days/weeks/or months of training depending on how long you think the chase from hoth to bespin took and how long they were on bespin before he left. Not to mention a two or three year time skip where I would assume he practiced wjat old ben had taught him. But Rey doesn't know what the force is and two days later, she is doing feats it took Luke years to learn.

    You can say she's gifted, but that's just lazy writing. She can lift the rocks at the end because the plot needs it.

    Rey and Kylo represent that which Luke Skywalker: Bad Planner (TM) could not control. He feared their abilities surpassing his own and, seeing a vision of Kylo's darkness, thought he could end Kylo's suffering. Giving into that quick instinct of fear informed Luke that all he was teaching belonged in the past. It didn't help Yoda and Ben foster Anakin, and it didn't help Luke Skywalker: Moof Milker (TM). Taking himself out of the equation (of the Force) was the sanest option. Shoot, Han and Rey tried to convert Kylo, and look what happened there. Same would have happened to Luke. What you propose with Luke training Rey would have been the same nostalgia trap that Abrams posited in Force Awakens. Luke failed. Harder than he ever did before, and during his best time to be one of them thar Lukes. And that's difficult to accept, but the movie posits that it was quite a possibility. This doesn't make for a bad character. It makes for someone being human over being a legend.

    Here's Luke's period of training, just for gits and shiggles...

    -Revenge of the Sith - A New Hope = 19 years without training (still managing to bullseye Womprats and be an expert pilot)
    -A New Hope = 2 days of training with Ben (fastest ship in the galaxy, remember?)
    -A New Hope - The Empire Strikes Back = 3 years without training (managed to utilize Force Telekinesis)
    -The Empire Strikes Back = a couple of days with Yoda and Ben (how long did you think Vader was going to wait to spring his trap? Was he all, "I'll just give Sonny-boy teeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnn more months to train, just so he can finally face me all half-**** and ready to pull a Finn... whatever that is... HOO-PAH!")
    -The Empire Strikes Back - Return of the Jedi = 1 year without training
    -Return of the Jedi = 1 conversation with Yoda, 1 conversation with Ben, and it's off to the races!

    Pffft, what a Mary Luke.

    PS: Does anyone read threads anymore? This is getting all ping-pongy.
  • I read threads, from the sound of it I should read the SW books. Too much other SW going on though, like this thread!
    I actually enjoyed other JJ Abrams endeavors.
    Officer of recruiting for Ewoks Fit In Blenders. Traya & Negotiator on farm. 4 spots open, ask me for an invite.
  • Nihion
    2070 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    I guess all that makes sense. Maybe I should let go of my expectations.

    It just felt really wrong when I first saw it. I was so excited, and I really wanted it to be good. But I guess I was expecting too much of the past. And Kylo be like let the past die. I should have listened to him.

    Maybe it’s a good thing that Abrams is back. Maybe he’ll give us what we want: big shock reveals and a resolution for our favorite heroes. Or maybe what we want will actually kill the past instead of letting go of it. I don’t know. I guess we will see.

    HA! Resolution. Abrams. For once, I can only hope. My guess is that the ending will be an anticipatory carrot stick for the Old Republic trilogy, in which the Jedi have to face off against their greatest foe: a living Mystery Box!! :o

    Lol. I like the Old Republic, but there were soooo many; no toooo many Jedi, and Sith could live on in Rubix cubes, so... I guess it would be funny.
  • chron wrote: »
    Hmeh.How you view Luke really just depends on how you view Luke's character development in rotj.

    The problem as I see it is that in rotj, Luke finally learns that he must keep control in that last moment when he cuts vader's hand off and realizes what he'll become if he continues to let his emotions control him.

    Tlj takes his character development a step backwards and undoes what he learned in rotj in the flashback. They do the same with han solo in tfa. Thoughout the original trilogy, we see three movies of him growing from caring only about himself to caring about his friends and starting a family. Then suddenly he's abandoning his family and going back to his smuggling ways with no explanation.

    The same applies to Luke. The point of Rotj, was that he learned to control his emotions and not give into anger. Tge tlj undoes that by having him once again give into anger (though only temporarily) in the flashback scene.

    I can even see him giving up and going into hiding to await another to train to defeat snoke (that's what yoda did after being defeated by ep). You could even say that he matured enough to realize that he coukd do no more and that the will of the force demanded patience. Once again look at yoda and obiwan. They went into exile but had a plan. Luke just gave up. It may seem like a minor difference to some but it really is a huge difference.

    And in ep 7 it looked like that was the case, Luke had gone off to hide and eventually train Rey. I'm guessing that was at one point part of the plan. But in the last jedi they just decided that rey needed no training and made luke just give up instead.

    They could have even done a version of luke giving up at first and still eventually training Rey had they not arbitrarily put a 19hr space chase in the movie ensuring that everything had to happen within a day after the force awakens.

    It's just poor execution that no one asked why doesn't Rey need any training to become a jedi? Everyone else did. Anakin had years of training. Luke had at least days/weeks/or months of training depending on how long you think the chase from hoth to bespin took and how long they were on bespin before he left. Not to mention a two or three year time skip where I would assume he practiced wjat old ben had taught him. But Rey doesn't know what the force is and two days later, she is doing feats it took Luke years to learn.

    You can say she's gifted, but that's just lazy writing. She can lift the rocks at the end because the plot needs it.

    Rey and Kylo represent that which Luke Skywalker: Bad Planner (TM) could not control. He feared their abilities surpassing his own and, seeing a vision of Kylo's darkness, thought he could end Kylo's suffering. Giving into that quick instinct of fear informed Luke that all he was teaching belonged in the past. It didn't help Yoda and Ben foster Anakin, and it didn't help Luke Skywalker: Moof Milker (TM). Taking himself out of the equation (of the Force) was the sanest option. Shoot, Han and Rey tried to convert Kylo, and look what happened there. Same would have happened to Luke. What you propose with Luke training Rey would have been the same nostalgia trap that Abrams posited in Force Awakens. Luke failed. Harder than he ever did before, and during his best time to be one of them thar Lukes. And that's difficult to accept, but the movie posits that it was quite a possibility. This doesn't make for a bad character. It makes for someone being human over being a legend.

    Here's Luke's period of training, just for gits and shiggles...

    -Revenge of the Sith - A New Hope = 19 years without training (still managing to bullseye Womprats and be an expert pilot)
    -A New Hope = 2 days of training with Ben (fastest ship in the galaxy, remember?)
    -A New Hope - The Empire Strikes Back = 3 years without training (managed to utilize Force Telekinesis)
    -The Empire Strikes Back = a couple of days with Yoda and Ben (how long did you think Vader was going to wait to spring his trap? Was he all, "I'll just give Sonny-boy teeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnn more months to train, just so he can finally face me all half-**** and ready to pull a Finn... whatever that is... HOO-PAH!")
    -The Empire Strikes Back - Return of the Jedi = 1 year without training
    -Return of the Jedi = 1 conversation with Yoda, 1 conversation with Ben, and it's off to the races!

    Pffft, what a Mary Luke.

    PS: Does anyone read threads anymore? This is getting all ping-pongy.

    Sorry still not good story telling when yourr new untrained hero beats the villian in the first movie of the trillogy. Kinda makes your villian look weak. It would have been like if Luke had picked up his lightsaber in a new hope after an hour or two of training with old ben and beayen vader.

    And Luke most likely practiced piloting and target practice so it wasn't no training to bullseye wamp rats. More like 5 or 10 yrars of likely practice piloting to learn the skill.

    Then some force training, though short in a new hope. Then two or three years (not of no training but trying to continue learning) only to barely learn basic telekinesis, which is a basic force ability to pull a lightsaber to him.

    Then off to dagobagh to train with the greatest jedi ever for weeks or months. I say weeks or months because it is entirely likely that the falcoln was in the tunnel in the asteroid belt for some time while the empire searched and they tried to make repairs. And that it was also a fairly long journey to bespin from hoth without a hyperdrive (or with a backup and much slower hyperdrive as some theorize). So weeks or months isn't that much of a stretch. Even so he still loses to vader who is simply toying with him.

    Then he has a few years to continue learning on his own but he already has the foundation so he can practice on his own. So once again not no training.

    And you can make a movie different from the original trilogy without breaking how the force works. Basically they just gave Rey any ability she needed for the plot for no reason (or some mumbo jumbo about if kylo gets too strong the light will make Rey stronger). No one that doesn't like the sequels wants a carbon copy of the originals but we do want it to be believable under the previously established rules of how the star wars universe works. And for me that means that to use force abilities at the level Rey does at the end of the last jedi, it requires more than the half a day of meditation she had. The rest of the time on the island was soent convincing luke to even train her. And unlike esb, tlj is clear that it all happened in 19 hours and there was no time skip.

    And tlj may have been able to get away with this if it were a stand alone movie. After all in a vacuum who knows how long it takes to learn abilities. But that was already established in previous movies so it doesn't work.
  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    Sorry still not good story telling when yourr new untrained hero beats the villian in the first movie of the trillogy. Kinda makes your villian look weak. It would have been like if Luke had picked up his lightsaber in a new hope after an hour or two of training with old ben and beayen vader.

    And Luke most likely practiced piloting and target practice so it wasn't no training to bullseye wamp rats. More like 5 or 10 yrars of likely practice piloting to learn the skill.

    I've seen this argument a few times since the release of TFA and, I have to say, it doesn't hold water.
    On the one hand, the arguer insists that it's perfectly valid for Luke to blow up the Death Star because he's been "bullseyeing womp rats back home" despite the fact that he has never flown an X-Wing before, there's no evidence of him flying in zero gravity before, veteran pilots can't make the shot but he's had one half hour training session with Old Ben and a flying tennis ball.
    Then on the other hand, it's not apparently legitimate for Rey to beat an apprentice in a fight despite the fact that we've seen Rey beat up some thugs on Jakku in close quarters earlier so we know she can handle herself in a melee fight and Snoke himself has said her powers are growing fast and Kylo is very badly injured from a crossbow blast to the stomach.
    It's around this point that I stop paying attention to the arguer.

    Anyone want to try to explain why Luke gets a free pass but Rey doesn't? Usually it comes down to the fact that Luke is a man and Rey is a woman but I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt this time if someone wants to try to convince me there's more to it ... ?
  • I still take issue with the claim that Luke is a pacifist.

    A pacifist believes that violence or military action will never have any justification. I.e. would rather die that fight.

    That is not Luke, or any Jedi.

    Jedi are peacekeepers who will take violent action in the defense of themselves or others. That’s not pacifism.
  • I still take issue with the claim that Luke is a pacifist.

    A pacifist believes that violence or military action will never have any justification. I.e. would rather die that fight.

    That is not Luke, or any Jedi.

    Jedi are peacekeepers who will take violent action in the defense of themselves or others. That’s not pacifism.

    Luke doesn't want to use violence and from the start of RotJ onwards only does so as a very last resort. Heck, at Jabba's Palace he doesn't use violence until he is literally being thrown into the Sarlacc. So if we don't use the word pacifist, what word do we use?
  • Nihion
    2070 posts Member
    As much as I don’t like to think that people dislike Rey because she’s a woman, I have to agree that for most people that seems to be the catch. And sure, cool, Disney added a female lead, but like, what about the other women? There’s Holdo and Rose (which are also two characters that people oddly just hated on too much...) and Phasma who was wasted, but what about a female villain? Like not the sexualized kind, but a strong, clever woman villain. Unfortunately, I have a feeling people still wouldn’t be happy.

    I have a few friends that love the MCU except Captain Marvel and that woman power scene in Endgame. And they like to claim that it’s because they’re “trash”.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    Sorry still not good story telling when yourr new untrained hero beats the villian in the first movie of the trillogy. Kinda makes your villian look weak. It would have been like if Luke had picked up his lightsaber in a new hope after an hour or two of training with old ben and beayen vader.

    And Luke most likely practiced piloting and target practice so it wasn't no training to bullseye wamp rats. More like 5 or 10 yrars of likely practice piloting to learn the skill.

    I've seen this argument a few times since the release of TFA and, I have to say, it doesn't hold water.
    On the one hand, the arguer insists that it's perfectly valid for Luke to blow up the Death Star because he's been "bullseyeing womp rats back home" despite the fact that he has never flown an X-Wing before, there's no evidence of him flying in zero gravity before, veteran pilots can't make the shot but he's had one half hour training session with Old Ben and a flying tennis ball.
    Then on the other hand, it's not apparently legitimate for Rey to beat an apprentice in a fight despite the fact that we've seen Rey beat up some thugs on Jakku in close quarters earlier so we know she can handle herself in a melee fight and Snoke himself has said her powers are growing fast and Kylo is very badly injured from a crossbow blast to the stomach.
    It's around this point that I stop paying attention to the arguer.

    Anyone want to try to explain why Luke gets a free pass but Rey doesn't? Usually it comes down to the fact that Luke is a man and Rey is a woman but I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt this time if someone wants to try to convince me there's more to it ... ?

    That's really not it. The probkem is that it ruins the menace of the main antagonist. If the main antagonist of the ot was the first death star. It was vader and later the emperor.

    And if they had left it at that in ep 7 and stated injuries aand kylo needing more training then that would be fine. But when ep 8 came out neither kylo nor rey received any training. And they killed off their other big bad for a joke. It's so bad they have to bring back ep to actually have a villian the hero hasn't beaten yet. Nothing to do with rey being a woman. The storytelling just isn't that great.

    I wasn't a big fan of anakin accidentally blowing up the droid ship in the prequels either but they didn't double down on that and did a time skip to allow us to believe anakin could be powerful. And even then he lost to a better trained force user. So while that one is an annoyance, it is limited to the scene in tpm.

    You could say Luke blowing up the death star is the same way. I give it a little more believablity since luke had flown a skyhopper for years and the controls ate similar to a x wing. So piloting is a skill. I would even venture to say he may have taken it into space (the ot never says) so your argument about zero g doesn't hold water. But even so, Luke still has to have training before beating another force user in lightsaber combat.

  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    I'm having trouble posting this; I made a typo in the original message, tried to correct it and now getting him with the anti-spam systems. What's the point of the Edit function if it can't be used to safely edit?
    Anyway ...
    And if they had left it at that in ep 7 and stated injuries aand kylo needing more training then that would be fine. But when ep 8 came out neither kylo nor rey received any training.
    They did state Kylo needed more training and they kept drawing attention to this injury. Repeatedly.
    And as for your claim that Rey received no training before her next fight with Kylo ... did you miss part of TLJ?
    luke had flown a skyhopper for years and the controls ate similar to a x wing. So piloting is a skill. I would even venture to say he may have taken it into space (the ot never says) so your argument about zero g doesn't hold water.
    How do you know the controls are similar? Where is that stated in the movies?
    And you allow that Luke MIGHT have taken his skyhopper into space (despite there being nothing to lend any credence to that idea whatsoever) but you won't allow that Rey knows how to fight well?

    Do you not see how you're coming across?? You are making MASSIVE allowances for the man ("oh the controls are similar and nothing says he hasn't gone into space with his skyhopper") but are not allowing anything - even the fact that Kylo is badly injured and this is repeatedly pointed out in the film - to explain why a woman could be good at something.
  • It isn't specifically in the movies I'll give you that but itbis in the expanded lore. I believe it was in the novelization of the movie but not positive on the source.

    And as I said before, had they stuck with the kylo being injured and that he needed more training and done a time skip or shown in some way that he or rey reveived more training it would have corrected the issue.

    And I can buy that Rey has melee combat training or has at least learned to handle herself rather well in combat. And if she fought troopers or someone other than "one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy" who had had training by both luke and snoke in use of the force I'd buy it a bit easier.

    And I've heard the official explanation from the novelization of tfa. It says that she basically downloaded kylo's training when he tried to enter her mind. That just seems like a lazy explanation. So as I said could have been done better.

    I'm criticizing the writting of the movies and the way they handled it, not the fact that they used a female lead. I don't care about that all that much so please stop using the "you don't like the sequels as much so your sexist" arguement.

    It's ok if you like the sequels. I just don't like them as much. It could also be that I saw anh the first time when I was very young and took things at face value more easily. And saw the prequels when I was a bit older so I'm more critical of anakin blowing up the ship than of luke. Though I still say that was just less believable.

    And I'm even older now so I'm more critical and set in my ways than I once was. I think that to face a force user and best one in combat, that training in the force, not just melee combat is needed. I think that's the big difference in opinion. You think that it requires just melee training. Agree to disagree.
  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    Yeah, regardless of whether or not it's because it's a "Man v Woman" thing or "Luke v Rey" thing or even a "I saw this as a child v I saw this as an adult" thing, you are applying different standards to both.

    Luke blew up the Death Star because of The Force. He made a shot that veteran pilots couldn't make because he turned off his targeting computer and used The Force.
    Rey beat Kylo because of The Force and his injury. He was not at full peak condition but she was and that compensated for his training versus her lack of it.

    Being able to accept one but say the other is "bad", is disingenuous. Either you accept raw power in The Force allows for fantastic feats of skill, or you don't.
    You can't have it both ways.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    Yeah, regardless of whether or not it's because it's a "Man v Woman" thing or "Luke v Rey" thing or even a "I saw this as a child v I saw this as an adult" thing, you are applying different standards to both.

    Luke blew up the Death Star because of The Force. He made a shot that veteran pilots couldn't make because he turned off his targeting computer and used The Force.
    Rey beat Kylo because of The Force and his injury. He was not at full peak condition but she was and that compensated for his training versus her lack of it.

    Being able to accept one but say the other is "bad", is disingenuous. Either you accept raw power in The Force allows for fantastic feats of skill, or you don't.
    You can't have it both ways.

    But kylo also has raw power in the force and the pain of his injury should have actually made him stronger in the dark side. So if the force allows for fantastic feats, why couldn't kylo use it to fight injured and win. He even had training so he should have been able to do so right?
  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    But kylo also has raw power in the force and the pain of his injury should have actually made him stronger in the dark side. So if the force allows for fantastic feats, why couldn't kylo use it to fight injured and win. He even had training so he should have been able to do so right?

    But Kylo's injury is clearly putting him off. Regardless of whether or not a physical injury to a Dark Side user makes them stronger ...
    (and this is the first time I've had anyone claim that physical injuries to the Dark Side user themselves makes them stronger; so Vader got stronger in the Dark Side when he got burned in his fight with Obi-Wan? Emperor Palpatine got stronger when his own Force Lightning was deflected back at him? Why don't they give themselves a small cut before every fight, then? It's emotional pain that makes them stronger, not physical.)
    ... he is clearly struggling to focus as can be seen with him struggling to use the Force to call the lightsaber to himself. Luke does it hanging upside down with no telekinetic training; Kylo struggles when badly injured.
    Rey gets the lightsaber through telekinesis but only because Kylo CAN'T.

  • Stenun wrote: »
    But kylo also has raw power in the force and the pain of his injury should have actually made him stronger in the dark side. So if the force allows for fantastic feats, why couldn't kylo use it to fight injured and win. He even had training so he should have been able to do so right?

    But Kylo's injury is clearly putting him off. Regardless of whether or not a physical injury to a Dark Side user makes them stronger ...
    (and this is the first time I've had anyone claim that physical injuries to the Dark Side user themselves makes them stronger; so Vader got stronger in the Dark Side when he got burned in his fight with Obi-Wan? Emperor Palpatine got stronger when his own Force Lightning was deflected back at him? Why don't they give themselves a small cut before every fight, then? It's emotional pain that makes them stronger, not physical.)
    ... he is clearly struggling to focus as can be seen with him struggling to use the Force to call the lightsaber to himself. Luke does it hanging upside down with no telekinetic training; Kylo struggles when badly injured.
    Rey gets the lightsaber through telekinesis but only because Kylo CAN'T.

    There is a lot of lore about vader's injuries feeding his hate and making him stronger in the ds. So while not in the movies that is cannon.

    And that is essentially my point. The fact that they made the villian weak enough that his injury stopped him from a simple feat such as calling a lightsaber to him just so Rey can win is just poor writing.

    It would have been so easy to just write her back story so it makes sense. Have her be one of Luke's students that went into hiding. She doesn't have to be a Skywalker but some force training in her past would have solved many of the issues.

    Personally, I wish they would have done the sequels completely different. I think having the jedi reestablished under Luke and them facing an external threat to test the new jedi would have fit better than the "new empire with a different name for reasons" and the "new emperor with a new name for reasons" and the "new death star for reasons"

    They could have drawn off the new jedi order series for inspiration. The Yuuzhan Vong would have made a great antagonist as a species. You could even have the pass the torch moment with a female lead. That would have all been fine. Had they given Rey a similar backstory of Jaina Solo, I'd be fine with it.

    You could even have Luke face the big bad warrior in the first movie to lose in an epic fight to show how strong the enemy is. Then by the end of the trilogy, the protagonist defeats them.

    That would have made much more sense and brought a trilogy that isn't a carbon copy of the originals, still fits with the originals, and passes the torch. All without breaking the way the force works in the context of the originals.
  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    The fact that they made the villian weak enough that his injury stopped him from a simple feat such as calling a lightsaber to him just so Rey can win is just poor writing.

    So hang on ... on the one hand you're complaining that Rey is too powerful and on the other hand you're saying that Kylo is weak so that Rey can beat him?
    If Rey is as powerful as you claim, Kylo wouldn't need to be as weak as he is at the end of TFA, would he?
    So Rey isn't overpowered then. Simple.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    Sorry still not good story telling when yourr new untrained hero beats the villian in the first movie of the trillogy. Kinda makes your villian look weak. It would have been like if Luke had picked up his lightsaber in a new hope after an hour or two of training with old ben and beayen vader.

    And Luke most likely practiced piloting and target practice so it wasn't no training to bullseye wamp rats. More like 5 or 10 yrars of likely practice piloting to learn the skill.
    Anyone want to try to explain why Luke gets a free pass but Rey doesn't?

    I've argued this before and it seems to come down to a couple of points:

    1) Luke and the other OT characters that people prop up on pedestals are "grandfathered in" so they are essentially immune to criticisms of the newer characters since they were there from the start and are protected by the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia.

    2) Rey and company are appearing at a time where movies are increasingly featuring females and people of color(not a bad thing), and the people pushing back against this are trying to convince everyone else of some wicked agena that Hollywood has where they are jamming half baked women and minorities leads down everyone's throats as if characters that came before had some sort of golden standard that the newer characters are ruining.

  • Stenun wrote: »
    The fact that they made the villian weak enough that his injury stopped him from a simple feat such as calling a lightsaber to him just so Rey can win is just poor writing.

    So hang on ... on the one hand you're complaining that Rey is too powerful and on the other hand you're saying that Kylo is weak so that Rey can beat him?
    If Rey is as powerful as you claim, Kylo wouldn't need to be as weak as he is at the end of TFA, would he?
    So Rey isn't overpowered then. Simple.

    No. Kylo has training and is stated to be powerful as the grandson of the chosen one. Rey has no training but raw potential. So it makes since that the one with both training and potential woukd be stronger.

    And in storytelling, a strong antagonist to overcome makes the struggle of the protagonist more meaningful. And since it is a trilogy, typically you don't want your villian defeated until the end. If your villian is defeated early. It kinda takes away from future movies.
  • willennium wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    Sorry still not good story telling when yourr new untrained hero beats the villian in the first movie of the trillogy. Kinda makes your villian look weak. It would have been like if Luke had picked up his lightsaber in a new hope after an hour or two of training with old ben and beayen vader.

    And Luke most likely practiced piloting and target practice so it wasn't no training to bullseye wamp rats. More like 5 or 10 yrars of likely practice piloting to learn the skill.
    Anyone want to try to explain why Luke gets a free pass but Rey doesn't?

    I've argued this before and it seems to come down to a couple of points:

    1) Luke and the other OT characters that people prop up on pedestals are "grandfathered in" so they are essentially immune to criticisms of the newer characters since they were there from the start and are protected by the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia.

    2) Rey and company are appearing at a time where movies are increasingly featuring females and people of color(not a bad thing), and the people pushing back against this are trying to convince everyone else of some wicked agena that Hollywood has where they are jamming half baked women and minorities leads down everyone's throats as if characters that came before had some sort of golden standard that the newer characters are ruining.

    So people can't criticize aspects of Rey's character without being sexist? I don't like the way they did Rey's character but am completely fine with Asoka Tano, Mara Jade, and Jaina Solo as strong female star wars characters. If it were just sexism, then wouldn't I hate all these characters.

    Could another solution be that some people just see more flaws in the new trilogy than with previous characters that happen to be male? Why the jump to conclusion that it has to be the fact that Rey is a woman? None of my arguments are based on Rey being female.
  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    Stenun wrote: »
    The fact that they made the villian weak enough that his injury stopped him from a simple feat such as calling a lightsaber to him just so Rey can win is just poor writing.

    So hang on ... on the one hand you're complaining that Rey is too powerful and on the other hand you're saying that Kylo is weak so that Rey can beat him?
    If Rey is as powerful as you claim, Kylo wouldn't need to be as weak as he is at the end of TFA, would he?
    So Rey isn't overpowered then. Simple.

    No. Kylo has training and is stated to be powerful as the grandson of the chosen one. Rey has no training but raw potential. So it makes since that the one with both training and potential woukd be stronger.

    And in storytelling, a strong antagonist to overcome makes the struggle of the protagonist more meaningful. And since it is a trilogy, typically you don't want your villian defeated until the end. If your villian is defeated early. It kinda takes away from future movies.

    But you acknowledged he was weakened by his injury. You said: "The fact that they made the villian weak enough that his injury stopped him ..."
    Kylo Ren is weakened by his injury so much that he can't force pull a lightsaber. This is what allows Rey to win.
    Take away the injury and he's a lot more powerful and that's what makes him a strong antagonist. He is badly hurt at the end of TFA.
  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    Why the jump to conclusion that it has to be the fact that Rey is a woman? None of my arguments are based on Rey being female.

    But all the arguments you are making can easily be applied to Luke and other male characters in Star Wars. But you are actively denying that. You are saying XYZ applies as a reason why Rey is a bad character but despite XYZ also could be applied to Luke, you are bending over backwards to avoid that.
    THAT is why you are coming across as sexist. You are not treating Rey equally with Luke.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    The fact that they made the villian weak enough that his injury stopped him from a simple feat such as calling a lightsaber to him just so Rey can win is just poor writing.

    So hang on ... on the one hand you're complaining that Rey is too powerful and on the other hand you're saying that Kylo is weak so that Rey can beat him?
    If Rey is as powerful as you claim, Kylo wouldn't need to be as weak as he is at the end of TFA, would he?
    So Rey isn't overpowered then. Simple.
    And in storytelling, a strong antagonist to overcome makes the struggle of the protagonist more meaningful. And since it is a trilogy, typically you don't want your villian defeated until the end. If your villian is defeated early. It kinda takes away from future movies.
    Kind of like how farm boy, never flown in space or served in the military before, Luke defeated waves of TIE fighters led by Darth Vader and blew up the Death Star in the first OT movie?... Oh wait....
  • willennium wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    Sorry still not good story telling when yourr new untrained hero beats the villian in the first movie of the trillogy. Kinda makes your villian look weak. It would have been like if Luke had picked up his lightsaber in a new hope after an hour or two of training with old ben and beayen vader.

    And Luke most likely practiced piloting and target practice so it wasn't no training to bullseye wamp rats. More like 5 or 10 yrars of likely practice piloting to learn the skill.
    Anyone want to try to explain why Luke gets a free pass but Rey doesn't?

    I've argued this before and it seems to come down to a couple of points:

    1) Luke and the other OT characters that people prop up on pedestals are "grandfathered in" so they are essentially immune to criticisms of the newer characters since they were there from the start and are protected by the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia.

    2) Rey and company are appearing at a time where movies are increasingly featuring females and people of color(not a bad thing), and the people pushing back against this are trying to convince everyone else of some wicked agena that Hollywood has where they are jamming half baked women and minorities leads down everyone's throats as if characters that came before had some sort of golden standard that the newer characters are ruining.

    So people can't criticize aspects of Rey's character without being sexist? I don't like the way they did Rey's character but am completely fine with Asoka Tano, Mara Jade, and Jaina Solo as strong female star wars characters. If it were just sexism, then wouldn't I hate all these characters.

    Could another solution be that some people just see more flaws in the new trilogy than with previous characters that happen to be male? Why the jump to conclusion that it has to be the fact that Rey is a woman? None of my arguments are based on Rey being female.

    No, I've never once said that all criticisms of her are sexist. She's far from a perfect character. But you know who else is far from perfect? Luke, Han, etc... Also, it's hardly fair to compare the depth of a character that's been in 2 movies to someone who is the main character of a TV show that's about to hit its 7th season in Ahsoka or has been featured in countless novels and comics like Mara Jade or Jaina. Let's circle back to comparing them after Rey has been out for 10-40 years and more books, novels, comics, etc... have fleshed out her character in a similar manner that they have like those you mentioned.

    The only thing that I'm saying is that at this point in time(2 movies in), she's been about as developed as the likes of a character like Luke during Empire Strikes Back.

  • ZAP
    296 posts Member
    Stenun wrote: »
    Why the jump to conclusion that it has to be the fact that Rey is a woman? None of my arguments are based on Rey being female.

    But all the arguments you are making can easily be applied to Luke and other male characters in Star Wars. But you are actively denying that. You are saying XYZ applies as a reason why Rey is a bad character but despite XYZ also could be applied to Luke, you are bending over backwards to avoid that.
    THAT is why you are coming across as sexist. You are not treating Rey equally with Luke.

    Why should Rey be treated equally with Luke? Luke has been in the hearts and minds of Star Wars fans for 42 years, Rey has been around for a hot minute. Develop her character more, give me a reason to care for and like her, have her stay around in our hearts and minds another 4 decades and then maybe treat them equally.

    Leia was such a better character than Rey, it’s not even close. Is that a sexist opinion?

    The chemistry between leia and Han was palpable and awesome in the first few movies. Compare that to the “luke warm” chemistry between Rey and Finn. Again, is that a sexist opinion?

    The sexist argument regarding not treating Rey and Luke equally is utter nonsense. It’s mainly about writing, character development and acting.



  • Stenun wrote: »
    Why the jump to conclusion that it has to be the fact that Rey is a woman? None of my arguments are based on Rey being female.

    But all the arguments you are making can easily be applied to Luke and other male characters in Star Wars. But you are actively denying that. You are saying XYZ applies as a reason why Rey is a bad character but despite XYZ also could be applied to Luke, you are bending over backwards to avoid that.
    THAT is why you are coming across as sexist. You are not treating Rey equally with Luke.

    I am treating each circumstance as individual circumstance. Luke in a new hope is not exactly the same as Rey in the force awakens. So it is possible to be okay with the way luke was written and not with the way rey was. I already mentioned that having anakin blow up the control ship in tpm was also bad writing. But the time skip and assumed training over that time mitigated the effects of the bad writing.

    I think mentioning that Luke was already a good pilot was enough to make it reasonable that he could fly an xwing and his potential in the force was enough to pull off the trench run. The movie even mentioned that luke had practice hitting targets in a trench like environment that were similar size to the exhaust port. So they wrote it where he had the skill set to do the feat.

    Rey is a scavenger. Sure she uses a staff and can handle herself well enough in a scuffle.

    Now let's look at all the stuff she does with no explanation.

    Flies the falcoln through a junk heap and pulls off maneuvers that would be difficult by an ace pilot. This is with no mention of any previous flight training or practice.

    Repairs the falcoln. Also no mention of training in repairs. Though this one I can give a pass to since she does have experience scavenging parts.

    Uses a jedi mind trick the day she learns what the force is with absolutely no training. (Up to this point, it is inferred that this ability is one that would be difficult to learn). You only see trained jedi use ot on screen. Obiwan, Quigon attempts it but fails, Luke does in rotj as a way to show that he has obtained a mastery of the force. Also i believe in the shadows of the empire book (I know no longer cannon) it states that this is a difficult ability to master when Luke tries but fails.

    And beats a trained force user in lightsaber combat after having never used a lightsaber or had any force training.

    I think you have to take into account the cumulative effects of everything rey does with no adequate explanation rather than just one.

    You state one example of where you think they made luke op. I put that one in the same category as rey making a repair to the falcoln. I give that one a pass just like I give luke having piloting skill a pass. Both are reasonably explained in the movie. The cumulative effect of Rey having to be able to do everything makes it less believable. Luke doesn't do everything to save the day in anh. Other than blowing up the deathstar, he isn't op at all. And that still req an assist from han solo.

    And if the force awakens was the first ever Star Wars movie, the mind trick could get a pass. But prior in universe material shows that is a nearly impossible feat to accomplish without a lot of training/practice.

    I do believe that I am probably more critical due to the fact that I have read a lot of the expanded universe material. Most of thos probably wouldn't bother me if I were a casual fan.

    A few changes could have made it more believable. They could have had poe, the best pilot in the galaxy along to fly the falcoln. Not a big change but makes more sense and you still get the exciting escape.

    Han could have repaired the falcoln. It is his ship after all. Though as I said they coukd leave this one.

    Finn, Han, and chewie could have rescued rey from her restraints to avoid her needing to use an ability she didn't have the training to do.

    Luke could have shown up to fight kylo and allow rey to escape. But if you want to have the rey/kylo fight then fixing the other ones make it more believable.
  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    edited August 13
    The only one I agree with you on is the Mind Trick. It was a fun scene but a little unusual that she mastered it so quickly. Every other example I think is grasping at straws.
    For example, flying the Falcon. There is a rule in storytelling of "show, don't tell"; don't tell us Rey is a good pilot, show us. And that's exactly what they do. They show us Rey is a good pilot.
    For example, beating Kylo Ren in lightsaber combat. As I keep saying, Kylo Ren is so badly injured that he can't muster a simple Force Pull - let alone fight at his full potential.
    All of it, other than the Mind Trick, to me smacks extremely heavily of "we need to attack this character, let's look for reasons to do so".
  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    ZAP wrote: »
    Why should Rey be treated equally with Luke?
    ...
    The sexist argument regarding not treating Rey and Luke equally is utter nonsense.

    No, it isn't.
    If you don't treat a man and a woman equally, that is the very definition of sexism.

  • ZAP
    296 posts Member
    Stenun wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »
    Why should Rey be treated equally with Luke?
    ...
    The sexist argument regarding not treating Rey and Luke equally is utter nonsense.

    No, it isn't.
    If you don't treat a man and a woman equally, that is the very definition of sexism.

    Well I respectfully disagree.

    There have been many reasons stated why Rey and Luke are not treated equally and it has nothing whatsoever to do with their gender.

    If it were just a couple of instances of suspension of disbelief, where people gave Luke the pass and not Rey then maybe, but it’s so much more than that.

    The way I feel about it is that a forced feminist agenda by Kennedy and her clan is far more sexist than anything else Star Wars related, including this ridiculous argument.


  • Stenun
    497 posts Member
    ZAP wrote: »
    ... forced feminist agenda ...
    Well you've revealed your true colours. Well done.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    All of it, other than the Mind Trick, to me smacks extremely heavily of "we need to attack this character, let's look for reasons to do so".
    Exactly! All these video breakdowns and stuff that people have posted that have hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube that try to explain how bad various things in the new trilogy are wreak of that quote. People have already decided that they don't like something and then put it under intense scrutiny to justify that hate to others in a manner that they wouldn't do so with the original films. If the old trilogies were as heavily critiqued as the new one, they would find just as many flaws.
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