Offense mods giving more critical damage than CD mods
Due to relics superpowering the offense stat, CD mods are now totally ineffective. A measly 30% CD pales in comparison to boosting with an offense set, which will give you bigger crits for all characters. I.e the specifically designed set is worse than the general set.
Rebalance!
Rebalance!
0
- 61.6K General Discussion
- -35 Developer Q&A Archive
- 2.6K New Players
- 30.7K Arena and Character Strategy
- 3.2K Individual Events
- 5.5K Guild Events
- 4.7K PVP and Rivalry
- 51K Guild Recruitment
- 751 Art and Media
- 4.2K Off Topic
Howdy, Stranger!
Replies
+1
True I’m not 100%, but pretty certain
Let's assume that you do get +20% offense from primaries and secondaries, which either means very good secondaries without using an offense cross or rather bad secondaries with an offense cross (assuming 6E mods). In that case your base damage is either 120% (CD set) or 135% (offense set), or in other words, an offense sets does 12.5% more damage on a normal hit. If both sets have a 6E CD triangle, the situation on a critical hit is as follows: 120% x 2.22 = 266.4% (CD set) vs. 135% x 1.92 = 259.2% meaning that a CD set has a small advantage of about 3% more dmg. In this case an offense set might in fact be the overall better choice.
However, let's look at the situation in a SE squad which gets +50% CD, which generally favors offense mods but also has ferocity, which (like all other offense bonuses) tends to favor CD mods. With 10 stacks of ferocity being active on average, the CD set on a critical hit is at 200% x 2.72 = 584.5% as compared to 215% x 2.42 = 520.3% with an offense. Here, the CD set does 12% more dmg on a crit wheras the offense set does 7.5% more dmg on a normal hit. Given the high crit chance in that squad a CD set is definitely the better choice.
Good to see you've acknowledged this; for anyone else still wondering, CD also multiplies against the offense boosts.
I'd almost be more concerned about the CD boosts from relics ruining the set, as the set gets diminishing returns the higher your CD goes. But I don't think you can go higher than 235%, so that shouldn't be enough to cause the issue, especially as you consider that offense from mods also creates a situation of diminishing returns in the value of offense sets.
The calculations for the SE squad are wrong. It is not 200% and 215%. You are adding the +80% and it has to be multiplied as the +80% bonus affects base after mods not the base witout mods.
Offenses should be:
120%*1.8= 216% and 135%*1.8= 243%
So:
216%*2.72=587.42 for the CD set
243%*2.42=588.06 for the Offense set
So the Offense set does more damage than the CD set for this squad.
As far as I know, all other offense boosts are on base stats (as opposed to bonus damage, which is after all other modifiers), so I’m not sure why this would be any different.
See Josh_K post about damage formula in this thread of 2016:
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/66818/ig-88-critical-bug-video
You can test it yourself. Go enter a node with a rebel with no leadership and note down the damage done to the enemies. Then enter again but with Wedge leading that toon. Note down the damage done.
Remember there's a 5% variance on damage for most chars (ST Han and ST having 10% variance)
Damage wise on the triangle, it is better to have crit dmg than offense because the damage output is greater if you do crit. If you just want high base damage without the consideration of critical hits, offense is better in that case.
This case is similar to general grevious; there's a reason why most people mod him with health sets and the crit dmg on the triangle. Or JKA, there's a reason why he runs crit dmg on his triangle rather than another offense mod as well.
Another exception to this would be special attackers (especially those with low crit chance like mother talzin/palpatine), you'd want to run an offense set over crit dmg because special damage scales more with offense sets.
But for strong special attackers that you want to hit hard like asajj/yoda, you'd want that crit dmg triangle to get the most out of it.
But for characters like HK who can run a crit dmg set or an offense set, the damage output between the two is around the same range, and you can test it for yourself to see. Crit dmg does slightly more dmg, but since he's mostly always critting it's more of a win-win situation.
like mentioned before crit dmg scales with characters that have increasing offense like assaj/chewie/ezra/hk/jka
you also have to consider the meta, like for instance, more people are running offense sets on jka because of malak. If the off chance you don't crit malak, you want that high base damage scaling with the offense set instead of the crit dmg set. Same with ashoka if you're using her on the team with him.
Like I said, it really depends on the character and their kit, but overall crit dmg sets are still a go-to, offense sets just have a place a long side them now rather than being trash like before.
that's just my 2 cents.
I'm cutting down teams with JKR relic 4 with GMY or Jolee relic 4. So I'm pretty happy with it.
I can't wait till I g13 and relic my entire CLS ChewHanC3R2 team. Although, I might put offense set on C3 instead of CD.
@Mephisto_style Why would you put O and/or CD on C3PO? Wouldn't he be better with any other type?
My rhetorical attack style was sarcasm.
There's something not ok on the charts.
On the 6 dot mods:
CD set + CD triangle should cut Off set + CD triangle at 80% and yours show 93%
Off set + CD
[(1-x)*(1+.15+.085)]+[x*(1+.15+.085)*(1.5+.42)]
CD set + CD
[(1-x)*(1+.085)]+[x*(1+.085)*(1.5+.3+.42)]
If you equal both you get 0.8
To make it easier to follow here on the forum, these are the totals for each with x=0.8 :
(0.2*1.235)+(0.8*1.235*1.92)= 2.14396
(0.2*1.085)+(0.8*1.085*2.22)= 2.14396
Firstly is the amount of crit damage a character will have in general. If a character will have 200 crit damage before the Crit damage set bonus, a crit damage set will may only barely outperform an offense set since 230 crit damage is a 15% damage increase over 200% crit damage. Since crit damage is dependent on crit, a good rule of thumb is to go with offense over crit damage when you will be hitting that 200% crit damage baseline. Anything over 200% means that the crit damage set may not ever produce more damage than the offense set. It likely will, but it won't be much and will require very high crit chance to be better.
This means that the characters that ended up with over 200% crit damage after triangle and relics are very likely to get more damage out of an offense set than a crit damage set.
So that's the first thing a crit damage set isn't a 30% increase in overall damage. the actual increase must be determined by taking the crit damage number including all uniques, buffs, leader abilities and other mods + the set and divide it by that complete crit damage number not including the set. Doing so gives us the % of increase we will see to our in match damage.
For instance 230/200=1.15 Hence why I know that at 200 crit damage a set will only represent a 15% increase in damage.
Now the other part of comparing offense to crit damage is trickier, but actually not that tricky at g13 or relics compared to being at g12+5. This is basically determining what percent of your total offense 15% of your unmodded offense is. This gives you your actual damage increase for offense. That's right offense set doesn't actually increase your damage by 15% just like crit damage doesn't increase your damage by 30%. With incomplete gear levels we have to subtract offense from currently equipped gear before calculating %increases from mods. Difficult. Let's just pretend we're all g13 or higher.
So take your unmodded damage stat (physical/special, whichever matters to your character. Do both if your character uses both, but with 2 separate calculations not added together) and figure out what 15% of that is . Then divide that number by what your total offense is. This will tell you what your actual damage increase for offense is.
Now for the fun part. we take our %damage increase from the Crit damage set and divide it by our % damage increase from the offense set, and this give us the amount of crit chance we would need to have to make the crit damage set outperform the offense set. If the answer is over 1 then the crit damage set will never outperform the offense set.
Combining all this together gives us the handy dandy formula:
((Complete crit damage bonus including buffs, uniques, leaders, mods and relics +set)/(Complete crit damage bonus including buffs, uniques, leaders, mods and relics but no set))/((unmodded offense * .15)/(all offense including mods (with no set)
Or for those who don't like words in their formulas
C=Complete crit damage bonus including buffs, uniques, leaders, mods and relics
CD=Complete crit damage bonus including buffs, uniques, leaders, mods and relics including set
U=unmodded offense
O=modded offense amount not counting set bonus
CC= Breakpoint where CD set equals offense set above it CD is better, below it O is better
((CD/C)/(U*.15)/(O)=CC
Nice output.
The only things you are missing is that you are assuming same final speed of character after equipping both sets.
As we want total damage and not only highest critical damage, the calculation is a mathematical expectation. CC*CritDmg + (1-CC)*StdDmg
As speed can vary, it will be multiplied by final speed with mods / original speed. This is because the same character being faster char will do more accumulated damage and that's what we are seeking.
In order to know the CC in with both sets do same damage we equalize the offense set with the Crit damage set.
As original speed is the same in both sides of the equation, we get:
SpeedSetOff*[(1-CC)*StdDmgSetOff]+[CC*CritDmgSetOff] = SpeedSetCD*[(1-CC)*StdDmgSetCD]+[CC*CritDmgSetCD]
You can use this to check any different combinations of mod sets in your character, not only Offense and CD sets. Only thing you have to make sure that the first set of the equation HAS to have lower or equal final CD% than the second or you can get weird results.
The results can be:
CC<0 or CC=0
This implies second set always do more Dmg
CC>100 or CC=100
This implies the first set is always do more Dmg
0<CC<100
This is the usual range we seek and tells us what's the CC in which both sets do same damage.(the point crossing lines in the graph)
If base+mods+lead+uniques CC of the character is higher than this number, then second set does more damage. If not, fist set is better.
(Second mod set of the equation has to have a higher or equal Crit damage for this to be true)
It is a bit more complicated than the useful simplified calcs you provided and those will do if speed do not differ much between each set of mods.
True. The formula is somewhat simplified, as I did leave out the offense on equipped gear. Mainly because people shouldn't be wasting their time trying to maximize damage on a character who isn't fully geared.
Speed isn't really part of the equation when it comes to determining if offense or crit damage is better though since it has the same impact on both crit damage and offense and can therefore be simplified out.
Unless you are saying one set has more speed than the other, in which case you are no longer comparing on the basis of set type. Most characters you are maximizing damage on don't care about speed at all (Chewie, Resistance Trooper, Raid Han, JKA) so including it is actually misleading for most situations we want to bother to do this. We want the largest damage numbers we can get here, not the most "damage over time".
If we were talking about a character where the speed actually mattered, then the one with significantly greater speed will be better. You shouldn't ever need to include speed to determine which set is better.
So my formula is pretty much all you should ever need if you actually have a crit damage set and offense set close enough to compare. If one has way more offense secondaries than the other, it will be better. The only thing that always should be checked on the character to determine which is better is the crit damage before set. If it gets too high then offense will always be better.
Also my calculations are based on % damage difference, not total damage. Very useful because it allows me to not have to do complicated irritating things like adding up non-crit damage and crit damage for each set (huge waste of time). The non crit damage portion of crit damage's damage is included by dividing one by the other as a % which is the necessary cc to have that level of crit damage. As far as offense set goes it increase the damage the same % whether or not it is a crit.
So thanks for your input, but my formulas is as complete as need be for any scenario where a formula is actually warranted. Including the things you brought up would greatly increase how messy and complicated the formula is while having an almost infinitesimal impact on the accuracy or usefulness of the equation and, as far as including speed goes, could actually make the formula less useful for most scenarios where pulling out a formula is worthwhile.
Realistically, unless your crit damage and offense sets are pretty similar, whichever set you have that has better offense and/or cc secondaries will hit harder. The only time to ever pull out this formula is if the 2 sets are pretty even in general. (comparable offense, cc, speed, etc)
In other words, it's worth it to pull out the formula to answer the question: Is crit damage or offense better here? or: Which mod set has the most potential for my character? but not to answer the question: Which of my mod sets are better?
The one with more offense, cc (and speed if it matters) will be the better one.
Because she's an agility attacker she will get 13.5% cd from relics, 30% from JTR lead, 50% from ID, 42% from a triangle, and 40% from C3p0 and translation giving her 325.5% cd before the set. 355.5/325.5=1.0921658986175115207373271889401 So in this scenario Scav Rey is getting at most a 9% increase in overall damage from the critical damage set (at 100%cc it will be 9%).
An offense set with absolute max offense secondaries on Scav Rey would represent a 77.33% increase in offense over her base offense giving the offense set a value of 8.4586923794507040079950233321218% which is still lower than the crit damage set so I retract my earlier statement about levels of crit damage outside of the set.
Even at 325.5% cd on scav rey it is possible for the crit damage set to produce more damage than the offense set so it's probably better to just run the calculations.
Weird fun facts: The fewer offense secondaries you have, the higher the value of the offense set, but the more cc secondaries you have the more likely the cd set is better.
This means that the offense set is going to be better in general for more starting players and the crit damage set is going to be better in general for more advanced players.
CD set
(1.7733 - 0.15)* 3.555 = 5.7708315
Off set
(1.7733) * 3.255 = 5.7720915
Sorry but I don't see CD set doing 9.21658986175115207373271889401% minus 8.4586923794507040079950233321218% more damage @ 100% CC
The offense set produces a 8.609923493301474444108537340476% damage increase not a 8.4586923794507040079950233321218% damage increase and the offense before the set bonus is 1.7421757593630197581834267177824 not 1.7733 So is 1.892175... for the offense set.
1.7421757593630197581834267177824 * 3.55 =6.1847239457387201415511648481274 for the cd set
1.8921757593630197581834267177824 * 3.25 =6.1495712179298142140961368327927 for the offense set
1.7421757593630197581834267177824 * 3.25 =5.6620712179298142140961368327927 for no set
We can see that the damage is very close for the crit damage and offense sets (just under a 10% increase) but that the CD set is barely superior. If the sets weren't almost exactly alike, we wouldn't have to deal with that. The one with the better stats would be better.
Crit damage triangle is always better yes. The value of an offense set changes based on a character's base offense (the higher it is, the better the offense set is) and offense secondaries (the more there are, the lessa valuable the offense set is), and the value of a cd set changes based on how much cd is in comp and your crit chance.
But in no scenario is an offense triangle better than crit damage if you can actually crit. Nihilus lead and true damage being notable exceptions.
I'll hang on, but CD set does less damage than Off set by my calculations. You're looking the fist number as Off set and it is the CD set.
Anyway, not going to extend calcs now. I think we got enough of the example and every case should be checked by itself.
Yup, That mistake was my fault.
I agree, if you have a cd set and an offense set that are very similar in stats, the formula would have to be run for every character you put it on to see which is better for that character.
Or if you wanted to farm up specifically for a character, using that formula could tell you which has the higher max damage potential.
In most situations though the formula is unnecessary, the better looking set is the better set.
For most people though the formula is overkill in any situation since the damage output between the 2 is always going to be very close when everything else is equal.
It's only for us stat nerds that it has a place.