Does Taunt ruin Fives' zeta?

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Language on Fives' zeta:
When another 501st Clone Trooper ally would be defeated while Fives is active, they recover 100% health and Fives is defeated instead.

If Fives is defeated this way, 501st Clone Trooper allies gain his Max Health, Max Protection, Speed, and Offense stats in addition to their own until the end of battle

So this makes it seem like if you kill fives directly, not some other 501st toon, then Fives does NOT provide any bonus to other 501st Clone Trooper allies.

Is it possible to avoid triggering Fives' zeta by killing Fives first? If so, why would you ever want Fives to taunt? That would absolutely be the wrong move. For that reason, I have not put the omega on Fives' "Cover Fire" ability.

If the language is wrong, and Fives passes his Health, Prot, Speed & Offense to Echo & Rex even if he is killed directly, then I do want to add that Omega. Also if the language is wrong, that text needs to be corrected in game.

It seems to me that the phrase "this way" (i.e. "If fives is defeated this way...") is a major nerf. But it's such a bad thing to do to a toon that taunts, I'm skeptical that it is actually nerfed like this. The problem is, it's hard to test. So... does anyone know how this zeta works? I mean know FOR SURE, not just what the text says.

It seems to me that EA/CG should refund the omegas for Cover Fire if this is what's happening (and think about reworking that omega, since no one should ever take it if they plan on giving Fives his zeta), and change the zeta text if it's not.

Replies

  • Ultra
    11452 posts Moderator
    Yes, if you kill fives directly, his stat boosts do not transfer to other 501st Clone Troopers. This is to balance the game.

    Fives job is to be a taunting tank, and with this zeta, it deters you from bypassing his taunt and target other clone troopers. Its a very effective way of making fives a tank without a taunt up at all times. Keep in mind, other tanks have zetas that trigger a taunt that is easy to bypass

    Another advantage of this zeta is that if any toon tries to kill another 501st Clone Trooper ally using an AOE, it will trigger Fives unique

    At very high gear levels with relics, this is a monstrous ability
  • Good luck killing fives with his 150k combined health and prot and over 70% armor, while the other clones can do what they want and rex getting his one shot ability of cool down in the meantime and starts destroying your team. While a relic 7 echo from beginning on deals massive damage.
    The zeta and the taunt are just right the way they are.
  • instead of killing five, you could pick the weakest 501st, put an heal immunity on and them kill him twice
    taunt is still useful
  • Language on Fives' zeta:
    When another 501st Clone Trooper ally would be defeated while Fives is active, they recover 100% health and Fives is defeated instead.

    If Fives is defeated this way, 501st Clone Trooper allies gain his Max Health, Max Protection, Speed, and Offense stats in addition to their own until the end of battle

    So this makes it seem like if you kill fives directly, not some other 501st toon, then Fives does NOT provide any bonus to other 501st Clone Trooper allies.

    Is it possible to avoid triggering Fives' zeta by killing Fives first? If so, why would you ever want Fives to taunt? That would absolutely be the wrong move. For that reason, I have not put the omega on Fives' "Cover Fire" ability.

    If the language is wrong, and Fives passes his Health, Prot, Speed & Offense to Echo & Rex even if he is killed directly, then I do want to add that Omega. Also if the language is wrong, that text needs to be corrected in game.

    It seems to me that the phrase "this way" (i.e. "If fives is defeated this way...") is a major nerf. But it's such a bad thing to do to a toon that taunts, I'm skeptical that it is actually nerfed like this. The problem is, it's hard to test. So... does anyone know how this zeta works? I mean know FOR SURE, not just what the text says.

    It seems to me that EA/CG should refund the omegas for Cover Fire if this is what's happening (and think about reworking that omega, since no one should ever take it if they plan on giving Fives his zeta), and change the zeta text if it's not.

    This is part of the reason why I think Jedi Knight Anakin will be getting a 501st tag - and possible new 501st unique. I also noticed there is no consequence to targeting Fives first. The Geos are harder to take down than Fives.

    If modded correctly, Fives is pretty defense heavy. He shouldn’t go down easily. If JKA is present, a reduced health Fives would trigger Anakin’s Retribution bonus. That powerful AOE could really backfire on you. Include Ahsoka, and she could heal Fives back up some.

    Also consider running a Padme lead with Anakin and the 501st Clones. All that protection could make Fives very hard to take down, and give Rex more time to pull off his Arial Assault.
  • Kristantei wrote: »
    This is part of the reason why I think Jedi Knight Anakin will be getting a 501st tag - and possible new 501st unique. I also noticed there is no consequence to targeting Fives first. The Geos are harder to take down than Fives.

    If modded correctly, Fives is pretty defense heavy. He shouldn’t go down easily. If JKA is present, a reduced health Fives would trigger Anakin’s Retribution bonus. That powerful AOE could really backfire on you. Include Ahsoka, and she could heal Fives back up some.

    Also consider running a Padme lead with Anakin and the 501st Clones. All that protection could make Fives very hard to take down, and give Rex more time to pull off his Arial Assault.

    Sadly though, all of the bonus turn meter, including Rex’s first special, becomes redundant due to Padme’s unique. Allies would gain ‘Tenacity Up’ but they wouldn’t receive 60% or 30% turn meter. Ultimately, if Padme’s unique didn’t mention anything about allies gaining bonus turn meter, GR would definitely be the best faction in the game.
  • Nauros
    5429 posts Member
    Have you ever had enemy clones go into beast mode after Fives' sacrifice? You're basically dead if that happens. If anything, the taunt is redundant because you want to kill fives first anyway.
  • If anything, the taunt is redundant because you want to kill fives first anyway.

    This is my point. You DON'T WANT Fives to taunt. You want the other toons to go beast mode. Putting a taunt on Fives makes it easier to target Fives ... especially for the AI when you're playing clones on offense, but even on defense it can be useful NOT to taunt. After all, opponents can and do make tactical mistakes (I know I do sometimes).

    Based on this info, I will never Omega Fives' Cover Fire. And his zeta is also much less useful on defense since people know how to get around it. Oh well.
  • If anything, the taunt is redundant because you want to kill fives first anyway.

    This is my point. You DON'T WANT Fives to taunt. You want the other toons to go beast mode. Putting a taunt on Fives makes it easier to target Fives ... especially for the AI when you're playing clones on offense, but even on defense it can be useful NOT to taunt. After all, opponents can and do make tactical mistakes (I know I do sometimes).

    Based on this info, I will never Omega Fives' Cover Fire. And his zeta is also much less useful on defense since people know how to get around it. Oh well.

    If you want to loose fives on turn one then yes , bit as somebody running shaak ti and clones in arena you need a couple of turns before the sacrifice comes, dm9unququh4x.png

    With a shaak ti lead it's a combined total of 205,000 health and protection . You want the enemy to waste time hitting a toon that will sacrifice himself anyway. With big counter attacks and massive damage AOE that toons have now days it's hard for the AI not to trigger tactical awareness zeta even when he has taunt up
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Treeburner wrote: »
    If anything, the taunt is redundant because you want to kill fives first anyway.

    This is my point. You DON'T WANT Fives to taunt. You want the other toons to go beast mode. Putting a taunt on Fives makes it easier to target Fives ... especially for the AI when you're playing clones on offense, but even on defense it can be useful NOT to taunt. After all, opponents can and do make tactical mistakes (I know I do sometimes).

    Based on this info, I will never Omega Fives' Cover Fire. And his zeta is also much less useful on defense since people know how to get around it. Oh well.

    If you want to loose fives on turn one then yes , bit as somebody running shaak ti and clones in arena you need a couple of turns before the sacrifice comes, dm9unququh4x.png

    With a shaak ti lead it's a combined total of 205,000 health and protection . You want the enemy to waste time hitting a toon that will sacrifice himself anyway. With big counter attacks and massive damage AOE that toons have now days it's hard for the AI not to trigger tactical awareness zeta even when he has taunt up

    On a side note which lead is preferable a gac defense slot and very good mods?
  • My problem with Shaak Ti is she has no Clone or 501st tag to give more synergy. Her leadership to Clone teams are effective, for speed and retribution; but feels artificial. Almost as if she was added to the game to make the 501st rework usable until the real 501st leader was added.

    Which seems more likely, given they’ve yet to announce who the tagged 501st leader will be. They gave Ahsoka a 501st tag, for some reason. That’s why I think JKA. They already compliment each other.

    Almost feels like that second Grievous rework CG did. The way they changed up Seperatists then re-reworked Grievous right before DSTB.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    Treeburner wrote: »
    If anything, the taunt is redundant because you want to kill fives first anyway.

    This is my point. You DON'T WANT Fives to taunt. You want the other toons to go beast mode. Putting a taunt on Fives makes it easier to target Fives ... especially for the AI when you're playing clones on offense, but even on defense it can be useful NOT to taunt. After all, opponents can and do make tactical mistakes (I know I do sometimes).

    Based on this info, I will never Omega Fives' Cover Fire. And his zeta is also much less useful on defense since people know how to get around it. Oh well.

    If you want to loose fives on turn one then yes , bit as somebody running shaak ti and clones in arena you need a couple of turns before the sacrifice comes, dm9unququh4x.png

    With a shaak ti lead it's a combined total of 205,000 health and protection . You want the enemy to waste time hitting a toon that will sacrifice himself anyway. With big counter attacks and massive damage AOE that toons have now days it's hard for the AI not to trigger tactical awareness zeta even when he has taunt up

    On a side note which lead is preferable a gac defense slot and very good mods?
    Rex. Shaak Ti is very easy with CLS.
    If opponent's keep DR for offense, G13 Malak can solo either of the two leads for 64 points so maybe use them on offense instead.
  • @Treeburner

    Looking at that Fives, I'm wondering what the gear/relic tier is you're on. I'm not close to that and my Fives is G12.

    Currently I'm only using Shaak Ti/Clones on TW/GAC defense, but even so I'd love to have the health/prot pool you've got.

    In addition to Gear/Relic tier, I'm interested to know if you're completely loaded up on health/prot mods, and if not what sort of mods you're running.

    @RandomSithLord

    What's your strategy for beating Shaak Ti with CLS? Are there any mod strategies or toons you can put in that 5th slot that make it harder for CLS? I've been winning a lot with Shaak Ti on defense, and that was with 5* and g9/g10 during the last GAC (she's 81/100 and g11 now). But I also hide her in the back row behind Darth Revan. So maybe folks don't have CLS when they get to her?
  • InvMars wrote: »
    instead of killing five, you could pick the weakest 501st, put an heal immunity on and them kill him twice
    taunt is still useful

    Nah if u kill a dif clone they get all his stats added to theirs
  • This is exactly why I didn't put the omega on his "if no others have taunt, fives will taunt" ability. Helps prevent his dying directly. :wink:
  • What's your strategy for beating Shaak Ti with CLS? Are there any mod strategies or toons you can put in that 5th slot that make it harder for CLS? I've been winning a lot with Shaak Ti on defense, and that was with 5* and g9/g10 during the last GAC (she's 81/100 and g11 now). But I also hide her in the back row behind Darth Revan. So maybe folks don't have CLS when they get to her?
    @MasterSeedy

    If it's a very tough team with multiple G13, I use Thrawn and L3 (replacable with OB sometimes). If it's G12 or below, you can use less to take them apart.

    Rex or Shaak will cleanse right after your Han's first move so I'd avoid stunning Rex because he'll move next and the whole team takes a turn anyway. My Chewie and Han are G13, usually if I focus Shaak first I take her out with the opening shot.

    As said, Rex moves next, TM fills the team. You start focusing Fives. Then again, G13 Han and with guard on CLS even G13 Fives dies soon. Try to dispell taunt though with CLS and fracture Rex.

    After Fives and Shaak are down you can kill Rex and it's over.

    Best 5th to defend could be zBarris or R2. I've faced G13 Nest there, but if you know how to time your hits on her it still won't shut CLS down.
  • Omeah wrote: »
    tHiS iS sO sTuPiD, wHy WoUlD i WaNt ThEm tO tArGeT mY tAnK?

    You sure told him, he wont be asking any more reasonable questions any time soon.
    Another day is saved.
  • evoluza wrote: »
    Lysandrax wrote: »
    Omeah wrote: »
    tHiS iS sO sTuPiD, wHy WoUlD i WaNt ThEm tO tArGeT mY tAnK?

    You sure told him, he wont be asking any more reasonable questions any time soon.
    Another day is saved.

    It's not reasonable at all.
    He tanks and buys the rest time. That's it. And if they go for Rex, then fives comes also in. There is absolutely no way fives taunt is redundant.

    I am not saying OP is right anout everything but it is an entirely reasonable question. If fives also gave out the bonus if you targeted him directly the team would be massively improved. I understand why that is not the case, and that the ability is worded correctly.
    However, a question seeking clarification on the matter is not worthy of ridicule of the person asking it.
  • TVF
    36526 posts Member
    evoluza wrote: »
    Lysandrax wrote: »
    Omeah wrote: »
    tHiS iS sO sTuPiD, wHy WoUlD i WaNt ThEm tO tArGeT mY tAnK?

    You sure told him, he wont be asking any more reasonable questions any time soon.
    Another day is saved.

    It's not reasonable at all.
    He tanks and buys the rest time. That's it. And if they go for Rex, then fives comes also in. There is absolutely no way fives taunt is redundant.

    You failed to address the ridiculous use of capital letters.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • 5s's job as a tank is to die first. That's a tank's whole goal in role.

    OP you're basically looking at this entirely backwards. To drop an old homily: you're putting the cart before the horse.

    5s's job is not to die to his ability and spread stats, it is to die first. His ability is there to back up his taunt and make sure he dies first. The taunt does not lessen the impact of the ability. The ability improves the impact of the taunt.

    Basically the point of the ability is to make the enemy focus on him (the tank), not to turn your whole team into tanks.
  • TVF
    36526 posts Member
    Agree with one caveat. The zeta is also meant to punish those who don't read kits and decide to bypass the taunt and kill someone else instead.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Agreed, the whole ability doesn’t make sense. It’s not even thematic to the character. Haven’t put the omega either and when I work on clones I might leave echo undergeared
  • TVF wrote: »
    Agree with one caveat. The zeta is also meant to punish those who don't read kits and decide to bypass the taunt and kill someone else instead.

    To be fair you could run a cheese team around it too. Bring along an uber weak clone and R2 to make sure it dies. Would have to only basic with 5s and it would only work on offense.

    But that would also be getting creative with it, not using it as designed.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Agree with one caveat. The zeta is also meant to punish those who don't read kits and decide to bypass the taunt and kill someone else instead.

    To be fair you could run a cheese team around it too. Bring along an uber weak clone and R2 to make sure it dies. Would have to only basic with 5s and it would only work on offense.

    But that would also be getting creative with it, not using it as designed.

    Never thought about that. Could probably get the taunt off anyway to soak up some damage and then use r2 stealth after
  • TVF
    36526 posts Member
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    Agreed, the whole ability doesn’t make sense. It’s not even thematic to the character. Haven’t put the omega either and when I work on clones I might leave echo undergeared

    I always hope people I face in GAC consider thematic issues when deciding what to upgrade.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • @Woodroward
    OP you're basically looking at this entirely backwards. ...

    5s's job is not to die to his ability and spread stats, it is to die first. His ability is there to back up his taunt and make sure he dies first. The taunt does not lessen the impact of the ability. The ability improves the impact of the taunt.

    LOL. No, you're making my point for me. The taunt tries to guarantee that the zeta ability does not activate.

    IF the job of Fives is to die first, then feeding precious zeta mats to him for an ability that only works when he DOESN'T do his job is wrong headed. it doesn't help him accomplish his mission. It only activates when Fives fails to WAI.

    So what about the Taunt? Well, if it's effective, it guarantees that you wasted your zeta mats.

    If it's not effective (and there are many ways these day to bypass or dispel or prevent taunt), then the zeta ability forces you to target Fives anyway, because the consequences of targeting someone else are bad.

    In that case, why would I waste the omegas on a Taunt ability?

    You see, the zeta forces everyone to target Fives in a way that is completely not dispel-able. It's baked into the fundamentals of the character. So why would Fives ever need Taunt? He doesn't.

    So if you look at his job as to die first, the omega ability is a waste. It's the zeta ability that will force people to target 5s whether or not he Taunts. His taunt would just get dispelled or prevented like all the other non-auto taunts in the game that have long since outlived their usefulness.

    If you look at his job as to die gloriously and spread his stats around, the omega ability is worse than a waste: it makes it less likely that the zeta will ever be activated.

    Either way, the Omega ability is just plain stew-pid. The fact that no matter how you look at it the taunt is incredibly poorly conceived is what made me create this thread in the first place. If it was merely a matter of the taunt favoring one strategy over another, then I would choose to omega the ability or not depending on which strategy I preferred, but I wouldn't think something was wrong with the kit. The problem is no matter which strategy you prefer, Fives drawing fire or Fives sacrificing to increase 501st power, the taunt is ineffective at best.

    I will never Omega that ability for Fives. His zeta alone will draw all fire away from my attackers against skilled opponents, and against the AI and/or less capable opponents, the zeta combined with lack of taunt will bait them into a trap that gives my other 501st clones an insane amount of power.

    Save your mats. Never omega "Cover Fire".
  • @Woodroward
    OP you're basically looking at this entirely backwards. ...

    5s's job is not to die to his ability and spread stats, it is to die first. His ability is there to back up his taunt and make sure he dies first. The taunt does not lessen the impact of the ability. The ability improves the impact of the taunt.

    LOL. No, you're making my point for me. The taunt tries to guarantee that the zeta ability does not activate.

    IF the job of Fives is to die first, then feeding precious zeta mats to him for an ability that only works when he DOESN'T do his job is wrong headed. it doesn't help him accomplish his mission. It only activates when Fives fails to WAI.

    So what about the Taunt? Well, if it's effective, it guarantees that you wasted your zeta mats.

    If it's not effective (and there are many ways these day to bypass or dispel or prevent taunt), then the zeta ability forces you to target Fives anyway, because the consequences of targeting someone else are bad.

    In that case, why would I waste the omegas on a Taunt ability?

    You see, the zeta forces everyone to target Fives in a way that is completely not dispel-able. It's baked into the fundamentals of the character. So why would Fives ever need Taunt? He doesn't.

    So if you look at his job as to die first, the omega ability is a waste. It's the zeta ability that will force people to target 5s whether or not he Taunts. His taunt would just get dispelled or prevented like all the other non-auto taunts in the game that have long since outlived their usefulness.

    If you look at his job as to die gloriously and spread his stats around, the omega ability is worse than a waste: it makes it less likely that the zeta will ever be activated.

    Either way, the Omega ability is just plain stew-pid. The fact that no matter how you look at it the taunt is incredibly poorly conceived is what made me create this thread in the first place. If it was merely a matter of the taunt favoring one strategy over another, then I would choose to omega the ability or not depending on which strategy I preferred, but I wouldn't think something was wrong with the kit. The problem is no matter which strategy you prefer, Fives drawing fire or Fives sacrificing to increase 501st power, the taunt is ineffective at best.

    I will never Omega that ability for Fives. His zeta alone will draw all fire away from my attackers against skilled opponents, and against the AI and/or less capable opponents, the zeta combined with lack of taunt will bait them into a trap that gives my other 501st clones an insane amount of power.

    Save your mats. Never omega "Cover Fire".

    I argued against the zeta being useless working against the taunt as it is, especially with rex’s Cooldown zeta and fives TM gains with this taunt. It’s a good idea implemented on a toon with the worst kit for it.
    They could just tweak it that every time fives goes under 100hp or 50hp another 501 is marked or all troopers stealth except echo for 1 to 2 turns. Would make for interesting battles
  • @Woodroward
    OP you're basically looking at this entirely backwards. ...

    5s's job is not to die to his ability and spread stats, it is to die first. His ability is there to back up his taunt and make sure he dies first. The taunt does not lessen the impact of the ability. The ability improves the impact of the taunt.

    LOL. No, you're making my point for me. The taunt tries to guarantee that the zeta ability does not activate.

    IF the job of Fives is to die first
    ......on Offense - against an equally powered team - you almost always avoid attacking the tank. In fact, the tank is typically attacked last simply to avoid having to work through them. This is literally how we attack the vast majority of squads, avoiding the tank as best we can.

    Most teams have at least 1 or 2 dispellers ...his taunt is rarely gunna stick and lasts for only 1 turn anyways (which will go extremely fast if he's gaining TM). This is another way of "Taunting" while also making undispellable.

    You not giving him "Taunt" because you won't Omega him will literally do nothing for your team. Even against an AI...a taunt that lasts 1 turn isn't gunna get 5's killed man, not even close.
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