I might not be the first to say this but I'm sick of reading this thread
Obviously sandbagging and lowering your numbers isn't cheating.
Obviously these actions should not result in an advantage
They also shouldn't result in a disadvantage
The real answer? Match making system are hard to develop, but swgoh does a pretty **** good job, it sucks if you're loosing 9 out of 10 wars, but that's just how it works, the effort is to make the match ups as similar as possible, and they take into account the number of players in a guild so that you don't need to have a full guild to participate
If you have a constructive idea to actually level the playing field then let's hear it, other wise, no game into the work has perfect match making
I've always say in a terrible area of skill where I do well till I get an accurate skill rating and then I seem be the wrost in every match up, it happens
Lost cause. Alot of posts explaining why guilds don't get 50/50 but op still thinks it's cheating. He's right, everyone else is wrong.
The funniest part of it all is that pretty much everyone agrees with his main point, but he keeps insisting it's cheating and steer the conversation further away of reaching a consensus on what the best way is to resolve the issue in the process.
In the end it's most likely futile. Even if we can "all" agree on a suitable sollution, the devs probably won't implement it anyway.
Do something that might not be the best way but hopefully get the attention for a huge problem VS do nothing. Hmmm I prefer the 1st.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. There are other alternatives you completely ignored. Some that have been mentioned in this thread.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
who are all these people that are sitting back and volunteering to be left out of a twar and any rewards just so others can win? why wouldnt they just move to a guild that lets them participate?
sandbagging is a myth, there is no conspiracy, people are just not logging in and signing up for the wars
Since we reached 200 mill gp, we only had sandbaggigng opponents. 18, 20, 26 mill and more is the difference in gp. This isnt fair machmaking. We cant do anything about it. We will not do sandbagging. We will report every opponent from now. Devs should at least aknowledge the problem.
Hope your guild will be disbanded and officers banned for meaningless continuous reports
You mean your meaningless post?
Seriously, the matchmaking hes its issues and its an easy fix, but the developers never going to care about it unless its talked about. Sadly enough everyone seems to accept the fact that cg is like that and we need to live with it. Sorry if i dont want to loose 9 out of 10 war because the enemy leaves out 8 people intentionally to drop 20-30mil gp and stomps on us with a bunch of 5mil accounts. And yes all of you do it intentionally, ever heard of guild rules? Ever heard of changing guild? Sorry but all the excuses made in defense of CG are just sad.
Occam's Razor. The vast majority of guilds you see doing this aren't doing it intentionally. If you report people for something that isn't against the rules (regardless if its intentional or not), you are nothing more than the boy who cried wolf.
who are all these people that are sitting back and volunteering to be left out of a twar and any rewards just so others can win? why wouldnt they just move to a guild that lets them participate?
sandbagging is a myth, there is no conspiracy, people are just not logging in and signing up for the wars
Not a myth, alliances often mix players for top guilds to fight TWs with 46-48 members. They are cowards who want to keep winning records but afraid to face equal opponents.
19 per zone meaning they had 38 sign up to our 47. Needless to say it wasnt even close and i agree, this **** needs to be fixed already. Faster than Malak in my opinion.
This 100%. Our guild is in this same situation. We always strive for full participation because we’re right on that 3 zeta cusp at 134M GP. And then we get spanked because we don’t have nearly as many meta and G13s pound for pound.
Yea but you get 2 zetas for doing absolutely nothing with full signups, as opposed to having to fight for 2 zetas if u dont have all signups. If I theoretically gave you a chance of anything less than 100% if you sandbag, you would automatically opt for full signups so your options are clear. You’re not a good example here.
I read through the comments and smiled a lot.
Seriously you think a 240-250M GP guild, where the average GP is 4.5M, has 30 nego activated, 8-10 GAS, has 40 r7 GG, it doesn't intentionally go back to the middle group to be there big guy? Or is it always the case that each of our opponents does not score 6-8 points during the tw join period? You are very naive.
As the saying goes, no matter what the rules allow, it is still called cheating among normal people.
In a normal community, they would be sanctioned, or at least they would make changes that would not be worth doing.
Reading comments like this makes me laugh.
If you read the recruitment posts in that section of the forum, many top end / elite guilds are saying that TW signup is optional.
In a normal community, people have at least some capability to think outside their own heads, and can visualise what it’s like in other guilds where things are different to their own.
You do know it requires a certain level of IQ and EQ in order to have empathy and put yourself in the shoes of others, as compared to all the self-centered entitled comments we see over here. So, your comment should read: “in a normal community, at least some people have the capability to think outside their own heads...” since there will be a range of people with low to high IQ/EQ.
But on the topic, yea, sandbagging isn’t against the rules, it’s not always intentional, solution has to not put anyone at a disadvantage. My guild faces the problem of having people signing up and doing absolutely nothing, so clearly we will ban people from joining if they are just going to be a burden.
who are all these people that are sitting back and volunteering to be left out of a twar and any rewards just so others can win? why wouldnt they just move to a guild that lets them participate?
sandbagging is a myth, there is no conspiracy, people are just not logging in and signing up for the wars
Not a myth, alliances often mix players for top guilds to fight TWs with 46-48 members. They are cowards who want to keep winning records but afraid to face equal opponents.
Top guilds do not shuttle players back and forth between respective guilds in their alliances. That would only be a logistical nightmare and a waste of time. Please stop making stuff up. And yes, I was in a top 20 guild for a decent while. Guess what? We occasionally had people sitting out when they went on vacation or had busy situations IRL. It happens. There is no need for elaborate conspiracy theories.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
who are all these people that are sitting back and volunteering to be left out of a twar and any rewards just so others can win? why wouldnt they just move to a guild that lets them participate?
sandbagging is a myth, there is no conspiracy, people are just not logging in and signing up for the wars
Not a myth, alliances often mix players for top guilds to fight TWs with 46-48 members. They are cowards who want to keep winning records but afraid to face equal opponents.
Top guilds do not shuttle players back and forth between respective guilds in their alliances. That would only be a logistical nightmare and a waste of time. Please stop making stuff up. And yes, I was in a top 20 guild for a decent while. Guess what? We occasionally had people sitting out when they went on vacation or had busy situations IRL. It happens. There is no need for elaborate conspiracy theories.
Not VERY top guilds, but I know a bunch of alliances who are focused on wins and send players to lower guilds to have advantage being not 50/50. Just believe me it happens more often than you think.
who are all these people that are sitting back and volunteering to be left out of a twar and any rewards just so others can win? why wouldnt they just move to a guild that lets them participate?
sandbagging is a myth, there is no conspiracy, people are just not logging in and signing up for the wars
Not a myth, alliances often mix players for top guilds to fight TWs with 46-48 members. They are cowards who want to keep winning records but afraid to face equal opponents.
Top guilds do not shuttle players back and forth between respective guilds in their alliances. That would only be a logistical nightmare and a waste of time. Please stop making stuff up. And yes, I was in a top 20 guild for a decent while. Guess what? We occasionally had people sitting out when they went on vacation or had busy situations IRL. It happens. There is no need for elaborate conspiracy theories.
Not VERY top guilds, but I know a bunch of alliances who are focused on wins and send players to lower guilds to have advantage being not 50/50. Just believe me it happens more often than you think.
I realize (and most guilds do) that there is an advantage of being below 50. But top guilds (no, not even VERY top ones) move players around just for TW. Do they have weaker players move to "lower" guilds within the alliance? Yes. Do they ask players who can't be active to consider moving to other guilds? Absolutely. But they don't send 2-4 players away right before every TW lock just to get their numbers down. I speak from experience and you speak from...????
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
who are all these people that are sitting back and volunteering to be left out of a twar and any rewards just so others can win? why wouldnt they just move to a guild that lets them participate?
sandbagging is a myth, there is no conspiracy, people are just not logging in and signing up for the wars
Not a myth, alliances often mix players for top guilds to fight TWs with 46-48 members. They are cowards who want to keep winning records but afraid to face equal opponents.
Top guilds do not shuttle players back and forth between respective guilds in their alliances. That would only be a logistical nightmare and a waste of time. Please stop making stuff up. And yes, I was in a top 20 guild for a decent while. Guess what? We occasionally had people sitting out when they went on vacation or had busy situations IRL. It happens. There is no need for elaborate conspiracy theories.
Not VERY top guilds, but I know a bunch of alliances who are focused on wins and send players to lower guilds to have advantage being not 50/50. Just believe me it happens more often than you think.
I realize (and most guilds do) that there is an advantage of being below 50. But top guilds (no, not even VERY top ones) move players around just for TW. Do they have weaker players move to "lower" guilds within the alliance? Yes. Do they ask players who can't be active to consider moving to other guilds? Absolutely. But they don't send 2-4 players away right before every TW lock just to get their numbers down. I speak from experience and you speak from...????
I speak from shard-mates' confessions that they DO re-group sending few weakest members to lower guilds. Some also re-group for GeoTBs to maximize rewards for top guilds. Do I have to name alliances? Guess I won't anyway...
If players in our guild can't participate, then they are asked not to join. Can you tell me what specific rule says people have to join?
It's just match-up algorithms that punish guilds for 50/50 at TWs vs "not 50"/50, no rules are violated
Exactly. Fix the algorithm and people need to stop "Reporting" guilds that don't have 50. Simple.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
"Sandbagging" as described by most angry players is a farce. There is no such thing. Number of active players signed up for TW and their combined GP, that is what is used to match guilds.
The real problem here is low-level character roster bloat, that's where the deciding GP factor lies. If you try to complete special events with "minimum" gear levels and then abandon those characters, you cripple yourself for TW and GA.
Seems to me the sandbagging argument is often used to mask roster bloat.
Because of horrendous development choices, guilds cannot maintain 50/50 members in the current environment. Don't be mad at guilds because players are retiring. This is a **** post.
Im not saying you are intentionally cheating by not forcing people, but when you get reported for it you should acknowledge the fact that you destroyed your opponents opportunity to play the only relevant guild content in the game and have fun. And thats as said before, lame as hell and you should accept the dirt you get for it.
Using the report feature for anything other than reporting cheaters is nonsense. Accusing guilds and players, that play by the rules, of cheating is nonsense. Noone should ever accept false accusations of cheating. Get real.
How can you tell they didnt cheat in GA? There are really no way to tell (only in exreme cases) Im thinking of reporting my current opponent, because with the teams he left for attack he cant beat my def only with seriously amazing rng. So Im not sure. BUT in TW we can know that the opponent left out members. We dont know if it was intentional or not. We can barely know anything, but with reporting, we can at least put them on the map for investigating. That is the only thing we can do right now.
Im not sure about my opponent, it is possible that he beat me fair and square but Im a bit suspicios. Do you know what happens if I report him? I dont want to report an innocent player.
It sure seems like you do...
We are reporting the guild, for possible sandbagging, not the members. There is a difference.
I would walk you through why this is absurd but I have seen no evidence of you being reasonable or logical.
You are a prime example of what is wrong with leaving it to players to report cheating...
Well, that is an unverifiable and broad statement. The matchmaking originally did use total GP, so sandbagging wasn’t a thing until they changed it.
It’s not an argument anyway - it’s fact. TW is optional in my and many other guilds. Check the elite guild recruitment posts if you don’t believe me.
Matching on total GP would be a bad thing, and we should seek the best possible solution instead.
Matching on total GP would be a BETTER thing. Maybe not the best, but better. All else being equal, it would most likely result in the more active guild winning each time. Since it's a guild event, you could easily argue that it should be based on the guild as a whole participating. There are lots of different ways they could do this and each have pros and cons associated with them. Everyone is going to have their own opinion...typically what is best for them as an individual. I do personally agree that the way it is currently done is the worst possible way, but matching on active GP and active players may not be the best. It would certainly be better, but whether it's the best way is debatable.
Average GP can be the merit - either for all guild members or for those who signed in. But since it doesn't make cash inflow devs don't care about it at all
I don't see why this is so complicated. Currently the match-ups are done in the following manner - the algorithm counts the GP of the guild members that signed up, orders every guild by that effective GP, and then pairs the nearest neighbors.
There might be some additional nuance to the algorithm to prevent repeat match-ups, but I don't think there's much beyond that; certainly the in-game experience doesn't suggest there is. The constant changes in player GPs, variability in TW participation, and addition/removal of players from guilds causes more than enough variation from TW to TW to sufficiently mix up the list order.
If you want to improve matchmaking, sorting the guilds into multiple lists before pairing would help. You'd have a list of guilds with 49-50 players, 47-48 players, etc. and restrict matchmaking to guilds on the same list. While the difference in effective GP in the pairings would be slightly higher in some cases, you'd eliminate the match-ups where 38 kraken accounts play 50 casual players.
Currently if an odd number of guilds sign up, one of them gets a bye and 1st place rewards. In my example, you could potentially end up with one unpaired guild per list. One could set some additional parameters to see if there are any valid cross-matches among the leftovers to mitigate some of that. Really depends on whether you consider everyone having some kind of match-up to be a superior outcome to 98% of guilds having a fairer match-up and a few having byes.
Replies
Good luck.
.... And still not cheating.
May I suggest doing the right thing instead?
Please enlighten me, what is the right thing to do if you are so sure of yourself?
Obviously sandbagging and lowering your numbers isn't cheating.
Obviously these actions should not result in an advantage
They also shouldn't result in a disadvantage
The real answer? Match making system are hard to develop, but swgoh does a pretty **** good job, it sucks if you're loosing 9 out of 10 wars, but that's just how it works, the effort is to make the match ups as similar as possible, and they take into account the number of players in a guild so that you don't need to have a full guild to participate
If you have a constructive idea to actually level the playing field then let's hear it, other wise, no game into the work has perfect match making
I've always say in a terrible area of skill where I do well till I get an accurate skill rating and then I seem be the wrost in every match up, it happens
How about telling the developers your point of view instead of sabotaging investigation of cheating?
The funniest part of it all is that pretty much everyone agrees with his main point, but he keeps insisting it's cheating and steer the conversation further away of reaching a consensus on what the best way is to resolve the issue in the process.
In the end it's most likely futile. Even if we can "all" agree on a suitable sollution, the devs probably won't implement it anyway.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. There are other alternatives you completely ignored. Some that have been mentioned in this thread.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
sandbagging is a myth, there is no conspiracy, people are just not logging in and signing up for the wars
Occam's Razor. The vast majority of guilds you see doing this aren't doing it intentionally. If you report people for something that isn't against the rules (regardless if its intentional or not), you are nothing more than the boy who cried wolf.
Not a myth, alliances often mix players for top guilds to fight TWs with 46-48 members. They are cowards who want to keep winning records but afraid to face equal opponents.
Yea but you get 2 zetas for doing absolutely nothing with full signups, as opposed to having to fight for 2 zetas if u dont have all signups. If I theoretically gave you a chance of anything less than 100% if you sandbag, you would automatically opt for full signups so your options are clear. You’re not a good example here.
You do know it requires a certain level of IQ and EQ in order to have empathy and put yourself in the shoes of others, as compared to all the self-centered entitled comments we see over here. So, your comment should read: “in a normal community, at least some people have the capability to think outside their own heads...” since there will be a range of people with low to high IQ/EQ.
But on the topic, yea, sandbagging isn’t against the rules, it’s not always intentional, solution has to not put anyone at a disadvantage. My guild faces the problem of having people signing up and doing absolutely nothing, so clearly we will ban people from joining if they are just going to be a burden.
Top guilds do not shuttle players back and forth between respective guilds in their alliances. That would only be a logistical nightmare and a waste of time. Please stop making stuff up. And yes, I was in a top 20 guild for a decent while. Guess what? We occasionally had people sitting out when they went on vacation or had busy situations IRL. It happens. There is no need for elaborate conspiracy theories.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
Not VERY top guilds, but I know a bunch of alliances who are focused on wins and send players to lower guilds to have advantage being not 50/50. Just believe me it happens more often than you think.
I realize (and most guilds do) that there is an advantage of being below 50. But top guilds (no, not even VERY top ones) move players around just for TW. Do they have weaker players move to "lower" guilds within the alliance? Yes. Do they ask players who can't be active to consider moving to other guilds? Absolutely. But they don't send 2-4 players away right before every TW lock just to get their numbers down. I speak from experience and you speak from...????
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
I speak from shard-mates' confessions that they DO re-group sending few weakest members to lower guilds. Some also re-group for GeoTBs to maximize rewards for top guilds. Do I have to name alliances? Guess I won't anyway...
It's just match-up algorithms that punish guilds for 50/50 at TWs vs "not 50"/50, no rules are violated
Exactly. Fix the algorithm and people need to stop "Reporting" guilds that don't have 50. Simple.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
The real problem here is low-level character roster bloat, that's where the deciding GP factor lies. If you try to complete special events with "minimum" gear levels and then abandon those characters, you cripple yourself for TW and GA.
Seems to me the sandbagging argument is often used to mask roster bloat.
I would walk you through why this is absurd but I have seen no evidence of you being reasonable or logical.
You are a prime example of what is wrong with leaving it to players to report cheating...
Matching on total GP would be a BETTER thing. Maybe not the best, but better. All else being equal, it would most likely result in the more active guild winning each time. Since it's a guild event, you could easily argue that it should be based on the guild as a whole participating. There are lots of different ways they could do this and each have pros and cons associated with them. Everyone is going to have their own opinion...typically what is best for them as an individual. I do personally agree that the way it is currently done is the worst possible way, but matching on active GP and active players may not be the best. It would certainly be better, but whether it's the best way is debatable.
There might be some additional nuance to the algorithm to prevent repeat match-ups, but I don't think there's much beyond that; certainly the in-game experience doesn't suggest there is. The constant changes in player GPs, variability in TW participation, and addition/removal of players from guilds causes more than enough variation from TW to TW to sufficiently mix up the list order.
If you want to improve matchmaking, sorting the guilds into multiple lists before pairing would help. You'd have a list of guilds with 49-50 players, 47-48 players, etc. and restrict matchmaking to guilds on the same list. While the difference in effective GP in the pairings would be slightly higher in some cases, you'd eliminate the match-ups where 38 kraken accounts play 50 casual players.
Currently if an odd number of guilds sign up, one of them gets a bye and 1st place rewards. In my example, you could potentially end up with one unpaired guild per list. One could set some additional parameters to see if there are any valid cross-matches among the leftovers to mitigate some of that. Really depends on whether you consider everyone having some kind of match-up to be a superior outcome to 98% of guilds having a fairer match-up and a few having byes.
One after another
Showing up on my Google news feed
Never saw a game have so many whiney **** as I do with Galaxy of heroes.
Waaaaaa