A disturbing discussion about TB

Replies

  • Viserys wrote: »
    The thing is CG's response on this issue is a bit ingenuine. Basically "We'll consider changing it if nobody plays it" while at the same time the reward structure is engineered to make it foolish to play Hoth instead, so basically "We're mathematically strongarming everyone into playing a miserable experience, and we'll consider changing if everyone voluntarily hoses themselves to prove a point." Which of course, they know people aren't going to do.

    My thoughts are why play the LS geo if it isn't going to be fun? It is a game, should be fun, with some difficult and challenging aspects, but not to the point where a fully decked team gets demolished on day 1, phase 1 of a battle. Might as well just go off of guild GP and sim the dam thing.
  • My conscience as guild leader forbids me to recommend LS:Geonosis, it's just an awfull experience for a 215M GP guild.

    We will likely do 1 Hoth battle just to take the achievement for all stars. Then reevaluate. Perhaps theory crafters have come up with a way to make your toons survive long enough to actually take a turn or 2 ;)

    This is exactly what we're going to do, at nearly the same GP (220). We'll get that reward, have extra GET1 for folks working on Malak or GA$, and see how the rest fare the second time around. I wouldn't put it past CG that the next one is screwed up and cancelled as well...
  • My problem with LS geo is that there is no fun playing it. My 210kk guild is being wiped out without even making a move. You will have and event running 1 week with the guild just mobilizing troops. If it was challenging but playable I'd be ok. But right now we feel obliged to do it because of GET 2 but NO ONE is enjoying. This is just bad and sad.
  • Gifafi
    2586 posts Member
    Viserys wrote: »
    The thing is CG's response on this issue is a bit ingenuine. Basically "We'll consider changing it if nobody plays it" while at the same time the reward structure is engineered to make it foolish to play Hoth instead, so basically "We're mathematically strongarming everyone into playing a miserable experience, and we'll consider changing if everyone voluntarily hoses themselves to prove a point." Which of course, they know people aren't going to do.

    cg said they would consider changing it if no one plays it?
  • Gifafi
    2586 posts Member
    edited December 2019
    edit double post
    Post edited by Gifafi on
  • ~250M guild here. As depressing as LS Geo TB is, we'll continue doing it just for the extra GET2 and character shards. Who knows, we may even get a pleasant surprise and receive decent gear rewards for it.
  • Those saying you’re at a loss maxing hoth over doing 9 stars are forgetting how much more get1 you get to put towards GaS which in turn helps you just as much as maxing your negotiator. Perspective
  • Nauros
    3113 posts Member
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Viserys wrote: »
    The thing is CG's response on this issue is a bit ingenuine. Basically "We'll consider changing it if nobody plays it" while at the same time the reward structure is engineered to make it foolish to play Hoth instead, so basically "We're mathematically strongarming everyone into playing a miserable experience, and we'll consider changing if everyone voluntarily hoses themselves to prove a point." Which of course, they know people aren't going to do.

    cg said they would consider changing it if no one plays it?

    They said that they will take action if they see a problem in their metrics. Noone playing it would probably be considered a problem.
    Revive the stores, the game needs it.
  • RandomSithLord
    1530 posts Member
    edited December 2019
    Shaddes wrote: »
    Those saying you’re at a loss maxing hoth over doing 9 stars are forgetting how much more get1 you get to put towards GaS which in turn helps you just as much as maxing your negotiator[/]. Perspective
    How so? GAS is not exactly a dominant meta character at the moment and can be handled by a few teams even at r7.

    A 7* Negotiator on the other hand can be tough for non-relic rebels (Bistan pilots included) and even mirrors but not so much for Malevolence. Having both ships sooner seems to be a bigger priority than maxing GAS a few weeks earlier.
  • Kyno
    22228 posts Moderator
    Travesty wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I dont think this conversation is any more disturbing than the other times new content is released and the conversation revolves around breaking up long term groups of people to push to do higher tiers.
    You seem to be comparing this to HSTR. If not, my apologies for the mistaken assumption. However if you are, then your comparison leaves out a couple of key differences between then and now.

    The first is that our raid teams weren't maxed out and we felt like there was light at the end of the tunnel if we worked on gear and mods while refining our technique and strategy.

    The second is that there was more goodwill between the players and the studio back then. That goodwill has been greatly diminished by p2w JKR and DR, and the fiascos of Malak and G$. Veteran players are no longer as willing to give the studio the benefit of the doubt that this was properly tested and balanced.

    That was then, this is now, things are different. The studio has greatly underestimated how much they have humiliated and demoralized so many veteran players and long time spenders. There will be an impact.

    Honestly I am just making the general comparison that this conversation is no more or less disturbing than guild having to talk about kicking out friends or friend talking about leaving due to new content.

    The choices are out there and some will see a benefit one way and some the other, in the end new content always causes a disturbance. This one may be different but still not any more "disturbing" than the other that happen.
  • kalidor
    1848 posts Member
    We're planning on doing a few rounds of Hoth to bolster everyone's GET, so that when Gen Sky comes back we can hopefully get a few players at 7* to help with LS GeoTB. We will take a bit of a hit on GET2 which is unfortunate, but we're still running pretty strong on DS GeoTB so it's not a complete loss.

    In the meantime, we're hoping the devs either find some units in LS GeoTB that aren't 100% WAI or soften their stance on the difficulty of phases 1 & 2, specifically the earlier waves. The downtime should also give our members more time to relic key heroes like clones & select jedi, and collect more info on strategies and team combos that work from the web.
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • We are doing vote in our 150mil guild. And so far it is 17 hoth, 0 geo, 3 dont care. We as guild have chance to get 7 or maybe 8 stars. But it is boring only deploying GP way since just few ppl manage to do 1/4 in first phase. Comparing it to Hoth where we are going to aim for 42+ stars and a lot of more fun play it is no Brainer. As above ppl said, we want to play game not just deploy and wait 36h for next deploy.

    I have posted this picture (which is not mine) in other thread but i think it belongs here too. Difficulty between LS geo and rest is just brutal.

    iey94bjws7st.png
  • Enas_Yorl
    201 posts Member
    edited December 2019
    We will do ls geo.
    And even at 250 mio gp it is a non-fun thing if your relic toons of r5 to r7 are blown away in phase 1 tier 1.
    So what?

    Deploy.
    Do not fight much.
    We all do not enjoy it.
    And we do not gear as it makes no sense to invest if your shiny toons are shreddered.
    I think that is the only true answer we all in my guild agreed upon. Do only invest in that mode if it fits to your personal planning, but we do not encourage to gear teams up. Total change of mind, full flexible solution and thats it.
    Maybe in a year we reevalute this, but than the line has already been drawn that ls geo is cg at its "very best".
  • I just wish the rewards was really corresponding the difficulty. If we were getting similar rewards like geo DS or maybe little bit worse then we might go for it. But it is pretty much little bit better rewards and more then double the difficulty.
  • Lanbo
    128 posts Member
    The problem.is that the rewards haven't scaled with the difficulty. I'm all for challenging content but the rewards need to scale with the difficulty.
  • Gifafi
    2586 posts Member
    I'm trying to remember that raid or event that was "fun" when we first started doing it.
  • You guys don't get it at all. LS Geo phase 1 being a pain and unbeatable even with T7 relics is not a problem, is a feature!
  • Kyno
    22228 posts Moderator
    Kyno, you can try and spin this anyway you want but you are wrong. This event is wrong on so many levels. Gear 13 & relics just came out this year after gear 12 being the highest level for the first 3 years. DS geo is challenging, but you can get 3-4 rounds finished with a decent DR or Traya team, 2-3 rounds with NS or BH in the first 2 phases. And you do not even need relics to do so. Now for this LS geo you can't even pass 1 round in phase 1 with a fully maxed out relic'd 7 Revan, Padme or CLS team? How can you even compare. It is ludicrous to release something this hard that will take years for most to accomplish. You and your team are dead wrong! Please just admit it. At this point its not challenging, it's impossible for 99.9% of people playing this game. And you had the balls to keep the rewards the same!

    Ps. I know you have stated that power of the toons don't always stick to the actual star wars universe. But to have droids that were tinker toys in the story line be able to take down jedi so easily is also ridiculous.

    What am I trying to spin?

    So you think it's not disturbing that guilds have to have the conversation about removing long time friends when new content comes they cant complete without changing around the guild?

    Or the conversations they have when someone leaves a guild because they can get into a guild doing that content and dont want to wait for the current guild to catch up?

    Neither of those sound like disturbing conversations for a guild to have to have?

    That is what I said. I'm not trying to spin anything.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno, you can try and spin this anyway you want but you are wrong. This event is wrong on so many levels. Gear 13 & relics just came out this year after gear 12 being the highest level for the first 3 years. DS geo is challenging, but you can get 3-4 rounds finished with a decent DR or Traya team, 2-3 rounds with NS or BH in the first 2 phases. And you do not even need relics to do so. Now for this LS geo you can't even pass 1 round in phase 1 with a fully maxed out relic'd 7 Revan, Padme or CLS team? How can you even compare. It is ludicrous to release something this hard that will take years for most to accomplish. You and your team are dead wrong! Please just admit it. At this point its not challenging, it's impossible for 99.9% of people playing this game. And you had the balls to keep the rewards the same!

    Ps. I know you have stated that power of the toons don't always stick to the actual star wars universe. But to have droids that were tinker toys in the story line be able to take down jedi so easily is also ridiculous.

    What am I trying to spin?

    So you think it's not disturbing that guilds have to have the conversation about removing long time friends when new content comes they cant complete without changing around the guild?

    Or the conversations they have when someone leaves a guild because they can get into a guild doing that content and dont want to wait for the current guild to catch up?

    Neither of those sound like disturbing conversations for a guild to have to have?

    That is what I said. I'm not trying to spin anything.

    You were comparing this TB with previous releases and that is un-comparable. None of previous releases we so hard that maxed meta teams would not be able to finish first phase of any event or do serious progress there.

    Not to mention that maxed teams designed for this event are destroyed in first round of phase 2. That is something that never happened before so there is no compassion with anything you released so far.
  • ShawDou wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno, you can try and spin this anyway you want but you are wrong. This event is wrong on so many levels. Gear 13 & relics just came out this year after gear 12 being the highest level for the first 3 years. DS geo is challenging, but you can get 3-4 rounds finished with a decent DR or Traya team, 2-3 rounds with NS or BH in the first 2 phases. And you do not even need relics to do so. Now for this LS geo you can't even pass 1 round in phase 1 with a fully maxed out relic'd 7 Revan, Padme or CLS team? How can you even compare. It is ludicrous to release something this hard that will take years for most to accomplish. You and your team are dead wrong! Please just admit it. At this point its not challenging, it's impossible for 99.9% of people playing this game. And you had the balls to keep the rewards the same!

    Ps. I know you have stated that power of the toons don't always stick to the actual star wars universe. But to have droids that were tinker toys in the story line be able to take down jedi so easily is also ridiculous.

    What am I trying to spin?

    So you think it's not disturbing that guilds have to have the conversation about removing long time friends when new content comes they cant complete without changing around the guild?

    Or the conversations they have when someone leaves a guild because they can get into a guild doing that content and dont want to wait for the current guild to catch up?

    Neither of those sound like disturbing conversations for a guild to have to have?

    That is what I said. I'm not trying to spin anything.

    You were comparing this TB with previous releases and that is un-comparable. None of previous releases we so hard that maxed meta teams would not be able to finish first phase of any event or do serious progress there.

    Not to mention that maxed teams designed for this event are destroyed in first round of phase 2. That is something that never happened before so there is no compassion with anything you released so far.

    Not saying this TB difficulty wasn't much harder than expected, but how did a maxed CLS rebels team do in p1 when the HSTR launched? I would assume very poorly since the team mechanics do not fit well with the raid strategy. I am assuming this was part of Kyno's point: just because a team is maxed doesn't guarantee it has done well the 1st attempt of brand new endgame content. While we as a playerbase may not agree with this, it has been around for much more than just this TB release.
    Looking for a new guild? Come check out Wa Da Tah on Discord: https://discord.gg/SFYjRkk
  • ShawDou wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno, you can try and spin this anyway you want but you are wrong. This event is wrong on so many levels. Gear 13 & relics just came out this year after gear 12 being the highest level for the first 3 years. DS geo is challenging, but you can get 3-4 rounds finished with a decent DR or Traya team, 2-3 rounds with NS or BH in the first 2 phases. And you do not even need relics to do so. Now for this LS geo you can't even pass 1 round in phase 1 with a fully maxed out relic'd 7 Revan, Padme or CLS team? How can you even compare. It is ludicrous to release something this hard that will take years for most to accomplish. You and your team are dead wrong! Please just admit it. At this point its not challenging, it's impossible for 99.9% of people playing this game. And you had the balls to keep the rewards the same!

    Ps. I know you have stated that power of the toons don't always stick to the actual star wars universe. But to have droids that were tinker toys in the story line be able to take down jedi so easily is also ridiculous.

    What am I trying to spin?

    So you think it's not disturbing that guilds have to have the conversation about removing long time friends when new content comes they cant complete without changing around the guild?

    Or the conversations they have when someone leaves a guild because they can get into a guild doing that content and dont want to wait for the current guild to catch up?

    Neither of those sound like disturbing conversations for a guild to have to have?

    That is what I said. I'm not trying to spin anything.

    You were comparing this TB with previous releases and that is un-comparable. None of previous releases we so hard that maxed meta teams would not be able to finish first phase of any event or do serious progress there.

    Not to mention that maxed teams designed for this event are destroyed in first round of phase 2. That is something that never happened before so there is no compassion with anything you released so far.

    Not saying this TB difficulty wasn't much harder than expected, but how did a maxed CLS rebels team do in p1 when the HSTR launched? I would assume very poorly since the team mechanics do not fit well with the raid strategy. I am assuming this was part of Kyno's point: just because a team is maxed doesn't guarantee it has done well the 1st attempt of brand new endgame content. While we as a playerbase may not agree with this, it has been around for much more than just this TB release.

    How about you read my second paragraph before responding, where i am pointing exactly this, as teams designed for this event were destroyed in phase two first round.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    ShawDou wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno, you can try and spin this anyway you want but you are wrong. This event is wrong on so many levels. Gear 13 & relics just came out this year after gear 12 being the highest level for the first 3 years. DS geo is challenging, but you can get 3-4 rounds finished with a decent DR or Traya team, 2-3 rounds with NS or BH in the first 2 phases. And you do not even need relics to do so. Now for this LS geo you can't even pass 1 round in phase 1 with a fully maxed out relic'd 7 Revan, Padme or CLS team? How can you even compare. It is ludicrous to release something this hard that will take years for most to accomplish. You and your team are dead wrong! Please just admit it. At this point its not challenging, it's impossible for 99.9% of people playing this game. And you had the balls to keep the rewards the same!

    Ps. I know you have stated that power of the toons don't always stick to the actual star wars universe. But to have droids that were tinker toys in the story line be able to take down jedi so easily is also ridiculous.

    What am I trying to spin?

    So you think it's not disturbing that guilds have to have the conversation about removing long time friends when new content comes they cant complete without changing around the guild?

    Or the conversations they have when someone leaves a guild because they can get into a guild doing that content and dont want to wait for the current guild to catch up?

    Neither of those sound like disturbing conversations for a guild to have to have?

    That is what I said. I'm not trying to spin anything.

    You were comparing this TB with previous releases and that is un-comparable. None of previous releases we so hard that maxed meta teams would not be able to finish first phase of any event or do serious progress there.

    Not to mention that maxed teams designed for this event are destroyed in first round of phase 2. That is something that never happened before so there is no compassion with anything you released so far.

    Not saying this TB difficulty wasn't much harder than expected, but how did a maxed CLS rebels team do in p1 when the HSTR launched? I would assume very poorly since the team mechanics do not fit well with the raid strategy. I am assuming this was part of Kyno's point: just because a team is maxed doesn't guarantee it has done well the 1st attempt of brand new endgame content. While we as a playerbase may not agree with this, it has been around for much more than just this TB release.

    Not that many guilds were able to run heroic tier of either aat or str on launch which led to guilds breaking apart. So did ds geo have some guild breaking/migrating/rage quitting effect to a lesser degree. People have selective memory.

    I think the situation with ls geo is not fully comparable out of the gate since jumping guilds won't help the situation too much.
  • Lanbo
    128 posts Member
    Sure, expecting maxed teams like CLS, JKR, and Padme to do as well as teams like clones that were designed around this might be unrealistic. But to expect those same teams to at least be able to get a few waves in phase 1 is not unrealistic at all. It's perfectly okay for CG to release something they want to last for a while. I'm even okay with them releasing something that absolutely cannot be 100% completed at the current power levels even if all 50 members had completely maxed out rosters. I'm perfectly okay with that, it gives room to grow. What I'm not okay with is that the rewards do not justify the difficulty. The rewards you get from the LS Geo TB for as far as the average guild can progress is significantly lower than the rewards the average guild gets from DS Geo TB. You're going to get significantly fewer stars in LS than DS and so each of those stars should be worth significantly more rewards. The sole purpose of this game is to make money, we all know this (though some refuse to acknowledge it). They have to make money to keep the game going. The way this is setup does not incentivize anyone to spend money as it is simply not worth it. So we essentially get to lose out on rewards for a minimum of 3 months.
  • Kyno
    22228 posts Moderator
    ShawDou wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno, you can try and spin this anyway you want but you are wrong. This event is wrong on so many levels. Gear 13 & relics just came out this year after gear 12 being the highest level for the first 3 years. DS geo is challenging, but you can get 3-4 rounds finished with a decent DR or Traya team, 2-3 rounds with NS or BH in the first 2 phases. And you do not even need relics to do so. Now for this LS geo you can't even pass 1 round in phase 1 with a fully maxed out relic'd 7 Revan, Padme or CLS team? How can you even compare. It is ludicrous to release something this hard that will take years for most to accomplish. You and your team are dead wrong! Please just admit it. At this point its not challenging, it's impossible for 99.9% of people playing this game. And you had the balls to keep the rewards the same!

    Ps. I know you have stated that power of the toons don't always stick to the actual star wars universe. But to have droids that were tinker toys in the story line be able to take down jedi so easily is also ridiculous.

    What am I trying to spin?

    So you think it's not disturbing that guilds have to have the conversation about removing long time friends when new content comes they cant complete without changing around the guild?

    Or the conversations they have when someone leaves a guild because they can get into a guild doing that content and dont want to wait for the current guild to catch up?

    Neither of those sound like disturbing conversations for a guild to have to have?

    That is what I said. I'm not trying to spin anything.

    You were comparing this TB with previous releases and that is un-comparable. None of previous releases we so hard that maxed meta teams would not be able to finish first phase of any event or do serious progress there.

    Not to mention that maxed teams designed for this event are destroyed in first round of phase 2. That is something that never happened before so there is no compassion with anything you released so far.

    The OP is talking about the discussion being "disturbing". I was comparing that to the "disturbing" conversation that happens when other new content is released.

    Did I make parallels to difficulty when asked further, sure, because there are relevant parallels, but they are not the same situation, and I started to explain as such. I also stopped, because it will just raise an argument about the details, which was not the point of my post.

    As I said in my later post, I was just commenting on the parallel conversations that happen with any new content and how those are just as disturbing to the people involved in them.
  • RevMaden wrote: »
    Are any other guilds out there having “the talk” about switching to Hoth for next TB? Sacrificing GET2 just to prove a point to CG that the LSTB is not entertaining content based off of a comment made by CG TopHat saying they will be monitoring player participation and may intervene if stats show they should?

    I’m a pretty open minded fella, but doesn’t the mere fact that these discussions are going on at this time mean there could be relevant reasons to alter the content just a bit?

    Or is it just me?

    I like the idea of a protest of LS Geonosis, but our buds at CG have shown they are just as stubborn as some major world geopolitical powers when ignoring the protests of the community they serve.

    Our 175M guild has plenty of heavy hitters who have no desire to keep running into a brick wall in the Republic Offensive. This is a matter of enjoying the game and earning rewards in a satisfying way. Some players may be able to theory-craft their way to a few mission clears in some of the early zones, but that content was not tuned for the current power ceiling. I don't know if you will be able to keep people's interest in the game if all they are doing is dying or passively deploying in the Republic Offensive TB.
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