Raid Sim: What the Devs say

Prev1
Most recent Dev quote regarding raid sim in recent Q&A

2) The AAT sim has been discussed pretty recently. I would say that one has a good chance of seeing a roll out sooner rather than later (no promises on timelines). We have no immediate intent to sim the Sith Triumvirate. A large chunk of players are still working through it

On the surface that seems reasonable. Don't create a sim when the players are still playing the content. However lets also look at the dev requirements to be able to sim a raid!

Post from CG_Crumb announcing raid sim on March 14

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So a guild must have 35 7* raid reward characters and 50 heroic completions. One might even say... the raid is old and boring by then. New guilds still working their way thru a raid wouldn't have the option to sim anyways.

So tell me again why we can't have ALL raids have sim as a standard option upon release with requirements like this?

We get tired of playing tired content! Especially with the HSTR and its toxic reward structure requiring you to fight your own guild for decent rewards.

Replies

  • Options
    I think you answered your own question in your last sentence. To sim HSTR, they'd have to give away too many G12 pieces vs just having a few guild members who finish in the top 10 receive them. They want to lower the progression of our rosters, not speed them up.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    what do you want to hear? It seems like a rethorical question you already know the awnser to and it's not going to change anything in terms of raids being simable any sooner...
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Options
    I would keep slogging through haat if they changed the gear rewards to useful stuff.
    I reject your reality and substitute my own.
  • Options
    +1

    The HSTR reward structure really is pretty bad. I can hit for over 20M pretty easily when the opportunity arises, but p2 and p3 go by so fast that what stops me hitting 15+M isn't the difficulty of the raid or the quality of my characters, it's whether I'm on the game at the moment p2 goes live and whether I have 25-30 minutes to spend just then.

    Even if I do, I won't have the time to continue on and attack p4 with all my different squads to run my score up over 40M. The guild just takes it down too fast. And while, yes, all the other players in my guild suffer from the same difficulty, it's just no fun sitting around with the game open while you're waiting for someone else to finish off p1, and yet if you don't do that, you're guaranteed a finish no better than the teens where g12 gear trickles in at near-useless rates. This is a raid you'll be able to do at best 5 times in 20 days. with 2 salvage being the norm for the vast majority of folks, that's 10 of your desired salvage in 20 days or 30 every two months.

    So the motivation to score high is there, but the chance to score high isn't. I'm not competing in skill or even how wisely I've invested my resources in shards, gear, mats, and mods. I'm just competing on whether or not I can be online during the exact right 5 minute period.

    If everyone who wanted to and was on within an hour or two got a whack at each phase, then you could really say that your score was meaningful and that the best folks were rising to the top. The way the current raid is structured, i don't see that happening. And yet with such vast, vast disparities between top3 and 11-15 the motivation to try to score at the top is high.

    I just think this combination makes for a bad set of incentives and a lot of boring waiting. Honestly because of those things if I could only choose the ability to sim one, either HAAT or HSTR, I would choose HSTR.
  • Options
    This should be a structure that is rolled out immediately. Yes I get that would screw up the gear from HSTR. Maybe don't make raids that create toxicity within a guild. But then again who would waste their time keeping a group of players and customers happy? Sounds like such a waste of time......
    Back on topic though, these are great reqs to allow a sim. At this point when you've beaten it 50 times and 35+ members have said raid character reward, there is absolutely no need to continue to drudge through something menial.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    TheRHOMBUS wrote: »
    Daishi wrote: »
    We get tired of playing tired content!

    CG doesn’t think HSTR is tired content. We don’t even have a team that can clear 2 phases yet.

    HAAT should be simmed 100%. Let’s not lose sight of that while everyone craves more G12+ gear.

    HAAT is debateble, it's not like everyone in top200 guilds can just auto it like how it was with the rancor when that raid became simable.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Options
    leef wrote: »
    TheRHOMBUS wrote: »
    Daishi wrote: »
    We get tired of playing tired content!

    CG doesn’t think HSTR is tired content. We don’t even have a team that can clear 2 phases yet.

    HAAT should be simmed 100%. Let’s not lose sight of that while everyone craves more G12+ gear.

    HAAT is debateble, it's not like everyone in top200 guilds can just auto it like how it was with the rancor when that raid became simable.

    What are you doing if you can't auto most of the tank?
  • Options
    I've posted this many times. I know some of you agree and some of you disagree, that's fine. What I don't understand why my proposed solution to make a simmed tank raid compatible with the Prestigious Quests is such a bad thing. As always, I am ready to listen if somebody has better solution, one that does not cause stress or conflict within a guild.


    I am totally fine with simming the tank raid provided that...CG does not screw up the interaction between a simmed tank raid and the Prestigious Quests.

    • Jedi Knight 4/4 - Earn rank 10 or higher 5 times in the HAAT Raid
    • Jedi Master 1/4 - Earn rank 3 or Better 3 times in the HAAT Raid
    • Jedi Master 4/4 - Earn Rank 1 in the HAAT Raid

    There are of course more conditions to completing the above quests than just the rank a player receives in the Tank Raid. This list can be found here: https://swgoh.gg/db/quests/?type=4

    Imagine having to ask your guild leadership to NOT sim the tank battles at least 9 times just for you to do these quests or having to leave your guild because you are a completionist and have a mild case of OCD.

    Just image if you were part of a guild's leadership. You get the news that the Tank raid is now simmable. You are happy as you and the rest of your guild don't have waste time doing it for the uninspired rewards.

    Little Johnny in your guild then sends you a message saying, "Hey boss man, I just started the Jedi Knight/Master quests and I need you to not sim the tank raid for at least 9 times"... You now have a choice, be a really mean guild leader and tell Johnny "too bad, so sad" or have to do the tank raid manually at least 9 more times...arg!

    You also then think hmmmm, if Johnny needs to do it, maybe little Stevie needs to do it as well in a few weeks/months from now. What a pain in the rear end!

    Don't worry kind people, Lenders Quizan is here and has the solution!!!

    If the tank raid is simmed, everyone gets designated as a 1st place "winner"! Everyone gets the same <insert sarcasm> "fantastic" rewards and little Johnny gets to continue with his quests. Johnny is happy, no downside for you, no downside for the rest of the guild.

    Again, the rewards are lackluster to begin with, give 25th place rewards for all I care, just **DESIGNATE** everyone as 1st place just to not cause a problem with quests.

    It would be far better to have CG address this from the get go so not to cause undue stress between some players and their guild leadership.
  • Options
    TL;DR
    What if you could sim prestigious quests?
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    TheRHOMBUS wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    HAAT is debateble, it's not like everyone in top200 guilds can just auto it like how it was with the rancor when that raid became simable.

    Relics have made the Haat easily autoable with a variety of teams. Bout time the Tank raid needs to go on the shelf.

    Like i said, not even everyone in top200 guilds can do it. Just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's super common. Before the rancor was made sim-able auto-ing that raid was super duper common.
    leef wrote: »
    TheRHOMBUS wrote: »
    Daishi wrote: »
    We get tired of playing tired content!

    CG doesn’t think HSTR is tired content. We don’t even have a team that can clear 2 phases yet.

    HAAT should be simmed 100%. Let’s not lose sight of that while everyone craves more G12+ gear.

    HAAT is debateble, it's not like everyone in top200 guilds can just auto it like how it was with the rancor when that raid became simable.

    What are you doing if you can't auto most of the tank?

    You're kinda proving my point by saying "most of the tank", but to awnser your question i mostly do 0 dmg. The raid is over in 20 to 30 minutes, but the majority of my guild (including me) can't auto solo the entire raid.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Options
    leef wrote: »
    the majority of my guild (including me) can't auto solo the entire raid.

    Is it "can't", or "can't be bothered to"? Have you tried and failed, or failed to try? Because at your GP, I'd think you could do it.

  • MasterSeedy
    5153 posts Member
    edited December 2019
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    @AnnerDoon

    I cna't auto-solo HAAT and I have 4.8M.

    Now, I can solo it quite easily, but I have to do p1 mostly by hand b/c you want one of the toons (3P0) using basic only, while other toons need to mix up certain actions and JTR benefits from her Assist special being controlled by hand so that it calls 3P0 every time.

    I also tend to take it off solo between topples on p2 because the game can Freud things up if left on auto and if I can solo every time with some manual I think that's better than auto-soloing 70-80% of the time and failing the other 20-30. P3 and p4 are full auto, and I don't even have to monitor how things are going - failures in p3 never happen and failures in p4 seem very, very rare.

    But no. I can't solo all the way through and even if you drop p1 I'd prefer to do p2 alternating between manual (untapped) and auto (toppled).

    If there's a completely full auto team where you don't have to do anything manually, I'm not aware of it.
  • Options
    I love finding surprise Pit Rewards in my in-box.

    This.
  • ShaggyB
    2390 posts Member
    edited December 2019
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    leef wrote: »
    TheRHOMBUS wrote: »
    Daishi wrote: »
    We get tired of playing tired content!

    CG doesn’t think HSTR is tired content. We don’t even have a team that can clear 2 phases yet.

    HAAT should be simmed 100%. Let’s not lose sight of that while everyone craves more G12+ gear.

    HAAT is debateble, it's not like everyone in top200 guilds can just auto it like how it was with the rancor when that raid became simable.

    Tired and boring comes from not needing to participate.... not being able to auto.

    I havent needed gk shards for a long time.... i needed traya shards but the vast majority of the guild i joined didnt.

    Sim it
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    AnnerDoon wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    the majority of my guild (including me) can't auto solo the entire raid.

    Is it "can't", or "can't be bothered to"? Have you tried and failed, or failed to try? Because at your GP, I'd think you could do it.

    From what i've read my current g13/relic levels don't allow for a solo on auto. Haven't really tried because i don't have relics to spare at the moment.
    I'm sure i could do if i invested a bit more into that raid, but it's not worth it for me personally at this point in time.
    TheRHOMBUS wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's super common.

    Clicking between phases, the rewards being weaker than Rancor, and “boring now” all seem like better reasons for a Haat auto team to be less common.
    leef wrote: »
    Before the rancor was made sim-able auto-ing that raid was super duper common.

    Yup. Only raid there was at the time. CLS came and put a final nail in that Raids coffin. Nobody was using Teebo Ewoks after that. The Game evolved and the raid was autoable. We are at that point now with haat. Rancor was all about TM and Haat added DPS + constant buff, etc. Relics have made the Tank as easy as Zader made the Rancor. It’s time to add that raid to my Gear mailing subscription. I love finding surprise Pit Rewards in my in-box.

    You could argue that we're at the zader point in the hAAT, but not yet at the CLS point.
    fwiw, i do like raids to become sim-able because i don't particulary enjoy raiding, but the arguments given are just not true.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Options
    leef wrote: »
    AnnerDoon wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    the majority of my guild (including me) can't auto solo the entire raid.

    Is it "can't", or "can't be bothered to"? Have you tried and failed, or failed to try? Because at your GP, I'd think you could do it.

    From what i've read my current g13/relic levels don't allow for a solo on auto. Haven't really tried because i don't have relics to spare at the moment.
    I'm sure i could do if i invested a bit more into that raid, but it's not worth it for me personally at this point in time.
    TheRHOMBUS wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's super common.

    Clicking between phases, the rewards being weaker than Rancor, and “boring now” all seem like better reasons for a Haat auto team to be less common.
    leef wrote: »
    Before the rancor was made sim-able auto-ing that raid was super duper common.

    Yup. Only raid there was at the time. CLS came and put a final nail in that Raids coffin. Nobody was using Teebo Ewoks after that. The Game evolved and the raid was autoable. We are at that point now with haat. Rancor was all about TM and Haat added DPS + constant buff, etc. Relics have made the Tank as easy as Zader made the Rancor. It’s time to add that raid to my Gear mailing subscription. I love finding surprise Pit Rewards in my in-box.

    You could argue that we're at the zader point in the hAAT, but not yet at the CLS point.
    fwiw, i do like raids to become sim-able because i don't particulary enjoy raiding, but the arguments given are just not true.

    I see where you're coming from but I feel like the CLS solo is somewhat unique. I mean the man literally solos the entire raid on auto. For Haat I feel like there's a more diverse strategy from phase to phase where CLS's tm removal just ended the Pit. I don't think we should have to wait for more power creep so some relic 14 can solo it or have to wait for some OP new toon to come with a kit that allows the solo.
    I think it's important to acknowledge the reward toon and his staus in a guild. If there's at least 40 7* GKs, then why should we be fighting for placement to get his shards. We whooped the Haat enough times, at least this is how I feel.
  • Options
    leef wrote: »
    AnnerDoon wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    the majority of my guild (including me) can't auto solo the entire raid.

    Is it "can't", or "can't be bothered to"? Have you tried and failed, or failed to try? Because at your GP, I'd think you could do it.

    From what i've read my current g13/relic levels don't allow for a solo on auto. Haven't really tried because i don't have relics to spare at the moment.
    I'm sure i could do if i invested a bit more into that raid, but it's not worth it for me personally at this point in time.

    That’s fair. But it sounds like your “can’t” is really “can’t be bothered to”. And that’s ok. The rewards don’t really justify the resources needed to build an auto-solo squad specifically for the hAAT.

    But, your decision (and other’s) to ignore the hAAT because the rewards aren’t great (the result of which is that auto-solos aren’t super duper common) doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be simmable.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    AnnerDoon wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    AnnerDoon wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    the majority of my guild (including me) can't auto solo the entire raid.

    Is it "can't", or "can't be bothered to"? Have you tried and failed, or failed to try? Because at your GP, I'd think you could do it.

    From what i've read my current g13/relic levels don't allow for a solo on auto. Haven't really tried because i don't have relics to spare at the moment.
    I'm sure i could do if i invested a bit more into that raid, but it's not worth it for me personally at this point in time.

    That’s fair. But it sounds like your “can’t” is really “can’t be bothered to”. And that’s ok. The rewards don’t really justify the resources needed to build an auto-solo squad specifically for the hAAT.

    But, your decision (and other’s) to ignore the hAAT because the rewards aren’t great (the result of which is that auto-solos aren’t super duper common) doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be simmable.

    You're now ignoring the fact that it's not easy to auto solo the hAAT, which is also partly the reason why people like myself don't bother. At the time the rancor became sim-able most people in my position (veteran player) didn't need to craft a team specifically to auto solo the rancor, which made the whole raid redundant for a sizable portion of the playerbase. The hAAT hasn't reached that point yet, so they don't have to make the hAAT sim-able for that reason.
    I do however agree that players like myself not bothering to even craft a hAAT solo team isn't a reason in it self to not make the raid sim-able. Heck, it can even be an argument for making the raid sim-able.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Options
    For the record, just because I think a full auto solo is rare doesn't mean that I think the raid shouldn't be simmable.

    As I said, I solo easily, just not on auto for p1 and only when it's toppled on p2.

    And I agree that easy but not auto-able is actually maybe the worst possible combo, since for most people it gets boring. For me I don't mind so much because p1 is manual and at least sometimes presents interesting choices about whether I should use this ability or that, so strategy isn't completely irrelevant (at least the way I play p1).

    The rest might be boring, but the rest is almost entirely on auto. So if you're using my squad and you don't like p1, I can see how you wouldn't like bothering to solo the raid.

    In any case, no matter the reasons, I think the time for a fully simmable HAAT is here.
  • plindboe
    281 posts Member
    edited December 2019
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    Daishi wrote: »
    On the surface that seems reasonable. Don't create a sim when the players are still playing the content. However lets also look at the dev requirements to be able to sim a raid!

    Not just any raid. The second announcement is clearly talking about the rancor raid, so it's not like the devs are contradicting themselves.

    Anyway, it made sense that the rancor raid became simmable, since a majority of members in many guilds easily auto'ed the entire raid. That's very different from the sith raid, where participants all compete for their place in the top50.

    People can still benefit from investing in sith raid teams, so CG would be shooting themselves in the foot by making it simmable, which would remove all incentive to gear up characters that can be useful in the raid. In other words, there's no chance of it happening anytime soon, whether you find the raid boring or not.
  • Options
    Daishi wrote: »
    We get tired of playing tired content!

    Probably more accurate to say "I" there and not "we" because there's pretty much a "there's nothing to do" thread every day.
  • Options
    Another thing that may deter players from committing the resources to building full-auto squads for hAAT (besides the ROI issue), is that they still have to pay attention and click through the cut scenes between phases. So, any full-auto squad is really only incrementally better than a curated- or targeted-auto squad, particularly when comparing either of those to just clicking the auto button in the Pit and collecting rewards.
  • Options
    Many players don't even participate because meanwhile it's really boring. HAAT is not bad, just much overplayed. So Sim could bring more participation to HAAT again and that would help the guilds by more rewards altogether...
    Please soon!
  • Options
    Daishi wrote: »
    We get tired of playing tired content!

    Probably more accurate to say "I" there and not "we" because there's pretty much a "there's nothing to do" thread every day.

    While I agree there is a "nothing to do" post daily, my question is does anyone actually ENJOY the HSTR after beating it so many times? I'm not talking about the rewards or the joy of crushing your own guild mates by grabbing a top 10 spot. Do you enjoy actually playing the raid?

    If there were no rewards or bragging rights would u play it? I know dont enjoy P1 at all, or P4. P2 and 3 are at least somewhat fun but in most guilds over in moments. Theorycrafting is fun, but who has time to theorycraft and try stuff when each phase ends in 10 min or less and you must post high damage for top 10 or get terrible rewards?

    I say make all raids simmable from the start once the guild has met the sim requirements. Set all rewards at rank 10 rewards but cut down the chance of fully crafted gear pieces by half. So if it's a 10% chance now, make it 5% and it will help balance out the gear flow issue.
  • Options
    @Daishi
    If there were no rewards or bragging rights would u play it? I know dont enjoy P1 at all, or P4. P2 and 3 are at least somewhat fun but in most guilds over in moments. Theorycrafting is fun, but who has time to theorycraft and try stuff when each phase ends in 10 min or less and you must post high damage for top 10 or get terrible rewards?

    This is it almost exactly. There is still some NS fun to be had at the beginning of p4 if you don't use NS during p3, but p1 isn't fun. It's just 4-5M that you need to grab if you want to edge out the people that will tie you in p2/p3 damage so you can climb into the top 10.

    P2 and P3 are definitely interesting to me. I'm still trying to perfect the NS/Anakin death storm squad - I have the toons, but there have only been a couple times when I got everything set up and going before the phase ended.

    So really, I do p1/JTR as a bit of a chore. Then, if I have time, I wait for others to knock p1 down to around 10%. At that point I use my JKR jedi to finish p1 and start p2. Depending how much I get from the end of p1, this is 14-20M damage. So I'm at 18-24M, with p3 at least ready to go by the time I finish my p2 run. But the truth is that sometimes, especially if I'm at the extreme edge of my ability to complete p1 (about 12% is my limit), p3 will be done or half-way done by the time I end my Jedi run.

    So do I have time to do the multi-team set up, using sacrifice toons to eat Traya's isolate? Nope. Not usually. On the few occasions when it works out, I can top 40M, but most of the time I'm still at 18-24M with only p4 kitchen sink-style play remaining.

    And that's when things go well. It's easily possible that the only play I get is that first p1/JTR run for 4M.

    It's not that I don't want to play HSTR. It's not that there's nothing fun left to do in it. It's that the interesting bits last such a short amount of time you lose your chance to even try if you just blink at the wrong time.

    Staring at the screen waiting around for the exact right second to start your Jedi run and frantically trying to set up your DeathStorm run before p3 evaporates aren't fun. And that's the cardinal sin of any game: the failure to bring the fun.

    I wish there was a way to guarantee everyone a crack at p2 and p3 each time the raid was run. If there was - or even if there was just a suitably large window (say an hour) instead of a bare 5 minute opportunity to get in and play - then I'd want to keep playing.

    As it is, the raid is more stress than fun. You have to finish top3 to get decent levels of g12, but finishing top3 is more luck than anything - everyone at my level has JkR, Anakin, and NS. Since it's mostly luck anyway and since I'm not having fun, I'd be happy to have HSTR become simmable.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    Options
    Fun is subjective
    Save water, drink champagne!
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