Be With Me.... (Spoiler)

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Replies

  • LordDirt
    3205 posts Member
    Kylo was never a Sith

    Explain a non Jedi like Cere knighting Cal after the Jedi Order was destroyed after Order 66.
    Free at last
  • Nihion
    3310 posts Member
    Alright well this Padawan debate is getting old. Believe what you want, but I’m gonna say that the majority of people classify them as Jedi.
  • Iy4oy4s
    2637 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Alright well this Padawan debate is getting old. Believe what you want, but I’m gonna say that the majority of people classify them as Jedi.

    Ok everyone, Nihion is tired of this topic, time to close up shop! Go home, nothing to see here.
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Vader was a Jedi before he went dark...

    Wait, Ashoka and lumi spoke to Rey?

    True, and ahsoka was a Jedi before she left the order.... That was pretty much my point...

    And yes, OP's post is correct in listing the Jedi that spoke to rey, I believe ayyla securra was one as well....

    Asoka was not a Jedi. She didn’t get passed the padawan stage and left the order, so close but no cigar.

    Ok, we got a badass here..... A Padawan Jedi is still a Jedi.....

    A lawyer is not a lawyer until they finish training and pass a test . A doctor is not a doctor until they finish training and pass a test. Same concept applies. She was training to be a Jedi, however, didn’t complete the training and never took the trials, therefore, not a Jedi. Not a basass, just pointing out fact.

    A Jedi Padawan is a Jedi, just not a Jedi Knight or Master.
    Its not the same thing as a doctor or a lawyer at all.

    Particularly as the Jedi Order grew more and more desperate - dating back to the clone wars, Jedi were dying off all too quickly and the Republic were in need of more knights. They selected Padawans that had shown growth and maturity - they would forego the usual "Jedi Trials" and promote them to Knight - this was exactly how Anakin was promoted to Jedi Knight.

    Yoda also said to Luke that facing Vader and defeating the sith was his "trial" after which he would be a Jedi Knight.

    The same could be said for Rey - she destroyed Palpatine and the Sith and embodied the Jedi.

    We will just agree to disagree. Also, the rules Jedi order rules don’t apply if there is no jedi order, so Luke and Rey can be anything they think they are.

    Not really, take something like the Walking Dead for example, if there is someone with medical training, they could become the "doctor" for the survivors or settlement - doesn't mean that person actually went through med school does it?

    Rey recognizes herself as a Jedi and embodied all the passed Jedi in her, she defeated the darkside and destroyed the sith and saved the galaxy - if that doesn't make her a Jedi then...?

    In a walking dead example, all the medical schools are gone, like the Jedi order, so anyone can claim the title doctor because there is no established program to become a doctor regardless of training. Just like Rey and Luke can claim to be a Jedi as there is no rules to say otherwise. Is Finn a Jedi? He’s force sensitive, help kill the Sith and save the galaxy. Answer is sure, why not, because there is not established guidelines to become a Jedi during their time.

    The rules still exist. Yoda and Obi-Wan are still ghosts that can teach. Yoda legitimately trained Luke, as he trained all younglings. Luke trained Rey. There are still guidelines.

    The rules don’t exist. The rules are whatever Yoda wanted to do. So is Rey a knight or master, or grand master or sentinel or counselor or beast master or ace or healer, you get the idea. All those ranks died with the order. Is Kylo now a Jedi? He’s a force user who battled the Sith and saved the galaxy.

    Kylo was a jedi as Ben Solo under Luke - he was redeemed just as Vader.

    Rey and Luke both had training so you cannot argue a mere force sensitive is a Jedi - it takes some training or experience.

    Like I said the official Jedi trials were done away with in the CLone Wars due to the toll the war had on the order - Anakin was promoted to Jedi knight without a trial because of his experience gained during the war.

    Rey and Luke both had their own experiences which tested them as the official trials would.
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Vader was a Jedi before he went dark...

    Wait, Ashoka and lumi spoke to Rey?

    True, and ahsoka was a Jedi before she left the order.... That was pretty much my point...

    And yes, OP's post is correct in listing the Jedi that spoke to rey, I believe ayyla securra was one as well....

    Asoka was not a Jedi. She didn’t get passed the padawan stage and left the order, so close but no cigar.

    Ok, we got a badass here..... A Padawan Jedi is still a Jedi.....

    A lawyer is not a lawyer until they finish training and pass a test . A doctor is not a doctor until they finish training and pass a test. Same concept applies. She was training to be a Jedi, however, didn’t complete the training and never took the trials, therefore, not a Jedi. Not a basass, just pointing out fact.

    A Jedi Padawan is a Jedi, just not a Jedi Knight or Master.
    Its not the same thing as a doctor or a lawyer at all.

    Particularly as the Jedi Order grew more and more desperate - dating back to the clone wars, Jedi were dying off all too quickly and the Republic were in need of more knights. They selected Padawans that had shown growth and maturity - they would forego the usual "Jedi Trials" and promote them to Knight - this was exactly how Anakin was promoted to Jedi Knight.

    Yoda also said to Luke that facing Vader and defeating the sith was his "trial" after which he would be a Jedi Knight.

    The same could be said for Rey - she destroyed Palpatine and the Sith and embodied the Jedi.

    We will just agree to disagree. Also, the rules Jedi order rules don’t apply if there is no jedi order, so Luke and Rey can be anything they think they are.

    Not really, take something like the Walking Dead for example, if there is someone with medical training, they could become the "doctor" for the survivors or settlement - doesn't mean that person actually went through med school does it?

    Rey recognizes herself as a Jedi and embodied all the passed Jedi in her, she defeated the darkside and destroyed the sith and saved the galaxy - if that doesn't make her a Jedi then...?

    In a walking dead example, all the medical schools are gone, like the Jedi order, so anyone can claim the title doctor because there is no established program to become a doctor regardless of training. Just like Rey and Luke can claim to be a Jedi as there is no rules to say otherwise. Is Finn a Jedi? He’s force sensitive, help kill the Sith and save the galaxy. Answer is sure, why not, because there is not established guidelines to become a Jedi during their time.

    The rules still exist. Yoda and Obi-Wan are still ghosts that can teach. Yoda legitimately trained Luke, as he trained all younglings. Luke trained Rey. There are still guidelines.

    He didn't - he showed her his philosophy of the force as to why the Jedi were wrong and why he was a hermit - he taught her essentially nothing.

    Leia on the other hand must have. Leia was trained by Luke and Rey refers to Leia in TROS as "Master". What went on off screen between Leia and Rey in regard to training is anyones guess.
  • Nihion
    3310 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Vader was a Jedi before he went dark...

    Wait, Ashoka and lumi spoke to Rey?

    True, and ahsoka was a Jedi before she left the order.... That was pretty much my point...

    And yes, OP's post is correct in listing the Jedi that spoke to rey, I believe ayyla securra was one as well....

    Asoka was not a Jedi. She didn’t get passed the padawan stage and left the order, so close but no cigar.

    Ok, we got a badass here..... A Padawan Jedi is still a Jedi.....

    A lawyer is not a lawyer until they finish training and pass a test . A doctor is not a doctor until they finish training and pass a test. Same concept applies. She was training to be a Jedi, however, didn’t complete the training and never took the trials, therefore, not a Jedi. Not a basass, just pointing out fact.

    A Jedi Padawan is a Jedi, just not a Jedi Knight or Master.
    Its not the same thing as a doctor or a lawyer at all.

    Particularly as the Jedi Order grew more and more desperate - dating back to the clone wars, Jedi were dying off all too quickly and the Republic were in need of more knights. They selected Padawans that had shown growth and maturity - they would forego the usual "Jedi Trials" and promote them to Knight - this was exactly how Anakin was promoted to Jedi Knight.

    Yoda also said to Luke that facing Vader and defeating the sith was his "trial" after which he would be a Jedi Knight.

    The same could be said for Rey - she destroyed Palpatine and the Sith and embodied the Jedi.

    We will just agree to disagree. Also, the rules Jedi order rules don’t apply if there is no jedi order, so Luke and Rey can be anything they think they are.

    Not really, take something like the Walking Dead for example, if there is someone with medical training, they could become the "doctor" for the survivors or settlement - doesn't mean that person actually went through med school does it?

    Rey recognizes herself as a Jedi and embodied all the passed Jedi in her, she defeated the darkside and destroyed the sith and saved the galaxy - if that doesn't make her a Jedi then...?

    In a walking dead example, all the medical schools are gone, like the Jedi order, so anyone can claim the title doctor because there is no established program to become a doctor regardless of training. Just like Rey and Luke can claim to be a Jedi as there is no rules to say otherwise. Is Finn a Jedi? He’s force sensitive, help kill the Sith and save the galaxy. Answer is sure, why not, because there is not established guidelines to become a Jedi during their time.

    The rules still exist. Yoda and Obi-Wan are still ghosts that can teach. Yoda legitimately trained Luke, as he trained all younglings. Luke trained Rey. There are still guidelines.

    He didn't - he showed her his philosophy of the force as to why the Jedi were wrong and why he was a hermit - he taught her essentially nothing.

    Leia on the other hand must have. Leia was trained by Luke and Rey refers to Leia in TROS as "Master". What went on off screen between Leia and Rey in regard to training is anyones guess.

    Luke “trained” Rey in the basics. I think there’s a line or two that at least hint at it.
  • Nihion
    3310 posts Member
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Alright well this Padawan debate is getting old. Believe what you want, but I’m gonna say that the majority of people classify them as Jedi.

    Ok everyone, Nihion is tired of this topic, time to close up shop! Go home, nothing to see here.

    I don’t care if others continue this discussion, this is just my declaration of leaving it.
  • Iy4oy4s
    2637 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Alright well this Padawan debate is getting old. Believe what you want, but I’m gonna say that the majority of people classify them as Jedi.

    Ok everyone, Nihion is tired of this topic, time to close up shop! Go home, nothing to see here.

    I don’t care if others continue this discussion, this is just my declaration of leaving it.

    But yet you are still here! Just josh’n ya.
  • Iy4oy4s
    2637 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Vader was a Jedi before he went dark...

    Wait, Ashoka and lumi spoke to Rey?

    True, and ahsoka was a Jedi before she left the order.... That was pretty much my point...

    And yes, OP's post is correct in listing the Jedi that spoke to rey, I believe ayyla securra was one as well....

    Asoka was not a Jedi. She didn’t get passed the padawan stage and left the order, so close but no cigar.

    Ok, we got a badass here..... A Padawan Jedi is still a Jedi.....

    A lawyer is not a lawyer until they finish training and pass a test . A doctor is not a doctor until they finish training and pass a test. Same concept applies. She was training to be a Jedi, however, didn’t complete the training and never took the trials, therefore, not a Jedi. Not a basass, just pointing out fact.

    A Jedi Padawan is a Jedi, just not a Jedi Knight or Master.
    Its not the same thing as a doctor or a lawyer at all.

    Particularly as the Jedi Order grew more and more desperate - dating back to the clone wars, Jedi were dying off all too quickly and the Republic were in need of more knights. They selected Padawans that had shown growth and maturity - they would forego the usual "Jedi Trials" and promote them to Knight - this was exactly how Anakin was promoted to Jedi Knight.

    Yoda also said to Luke that facing Vader and defeating the sith was his "trial" after which he would be a Jedi Knight.

    The same could be said for Rey - she destroyed Palpatine and the Sith and embodied the Jedi.

    We will just agree to disagree. Also, the rules Jedi order rules don’t apply if there is no jedi order, so Luke and Rey can be anything they think they are.

    Not really, take something like the Walking Dead for example, if there is someone with medical training, they could become the "doctor" for the survivors or settlement - doesn't mean that person actually went through med school does it?

    Rey recognizes herself as a Jedi and embodied all the passed Jedi in her, she defeated the darkside and destroyed the sith and saved the galaxy - if that doesn't make her a Jedi then...?

    In a walking dead example, all the medical schools are gone, like the Jedi order, so anyone can claim the title doctor because there is no established program to become a doctor regardless of training. Just like Rey and Luke can claim to be a Jedi as there is no rules to say otherwise. Is Finn a Jedi? He’s force sensitive, help kill the Sith and save the galaxy. Answer is sure, why not, because there is not established guidelines to become a Jedi during their time.

    The rules still exist. Yoda and Obi-Wan are still ghosts that can teach. Yoda legitimately trained Luke, as he trained all younglings. Luke trained Rey. There are still guidelines.

    He didn't - he showed her his philosophy of the force as to why the Jedi were wrong and why he was a hermit - he taught her essentially nothing.

    Leia on the other hand must have. Leia was trained by Luke and Rey refers to Leia in TROS as "Master". What went on off screen between Leia and Rey in regard to training is anyones guess.

    Luke “trained” Rey in the basics. I think there’s a line or two that at least hint at it.

    It doesn’t matter if he “trained” her or not, the order was gone, so the rules were gone, so anyone could be a Jedi regardless of training or no training.

  • The funny thing about this discussion is that it doesn't matter if someone is a Jedi or not...... Any light side force user can become one with the force upon transcending the physical realm..... Hence why leia and ahsoka voices were present...
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    The funny thing about this discussion is that it doesn't matter if someone is a Jedi or not...... Any light side force user can become one with the force upon transcending the physical realm..... Hence why leia and ahsoka voices were present...

    Special training was required.

    Qui-Gon discovered it due to his different perception on the force - the living force, and when he died he lived within it.

    Other Jedi become ONE with the force - a part of it. Qui-Gon passed this knowledge onto Yoda, who passed it onto Obi Wan. Anakin could do it automatically as he was born from the force - the force personified.

    Luke was likely able to do it from either following teachings from Obi Wan or Yoda, after return of the jedi, and likely passed it onto Leia - or as they were both Anakin's children, they were able to do it naturally as well.

    The other Jedi - likely are not force ghosts, but resonate within the force itself.

    That's my take on it.
  • Boo wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    The funny thing about this discussion is that it doesn't matter if someone is a Jedi or not...... Any light side force user can become one with the force upon transcending the physical realm..... Hence why leia and ahsoka voices were present...

    Special training was required.

    Qui-Gon discovered it due to his different perception on the force - the living force, and when he died he lived within it.

    Other Jedi become ONE with the force - a part of it. Qui-Gon passed this knowledge onto Yoda, who passed it onto Obi Wan. Anakin could do it automatically as he was born from the force - the force personified.

    Luke was likely able to do it from either following teachings from Obi Wan or Yoda, after return of the jedi, and likely passed it onto Leia - or as they were both Anakin's children, they were able to do it naturally as well.

    The other Jedi - likely are not force ghosts, but resonate within the force itself.

    That's my take on it.

    Hmmm, I'm down with this reasoning the most. Well said. I hadn't thought of Anakin like that, and have always wondered how he learned to do it since Obi-Wan learned the technique after Anakin turned. Makes sense that he wouldn't need to learn it since he was born from the force. I wonder if he knew...
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    What I do take issue with is that Anakin sought the power to save others and stop death - as the chosen one born from the force he didn't learn this power - yet Palpatine could heal himself and somehow came back from the dead. Kylo andRey healing each other etc. Baby Yoda also used the heal ability somewhat as a natural instinct even.

    To me this doesn't make sense - it was the power that was the golden goose and now everyone can do it. Seems pretty weak to me.
  • Gifafi
    5877 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Kylo was never a Sith

    Explain a non Jedi like Cere knighting Cal after the Jedi Order was destroyed after Order 66.

    turned to the dark side by a sith and trained by a sith. just saying
    Boo wrote: »
    What I do take issue with is that Anakin sought the power to save others and stop death - as the chosen one born from the force he didn't learn this power - yet Palpatine could heal himself and somehow came back from the dead. Kylo andRey healing each other etc. Baby Yoda also used the heal ability somewhat as a natural instinct even.

    To me this doesn't make sense - it was the power that was the golden goose and now everyone can do it. Seems pretty weak to me.

    it makes perfect sense that palp was able to come back, and makes sense he didn't teach that power to vader. why would he?
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • I think giving the power to Boda was them getting out in front of the movie so people would not start with the Mary Sue talk again.
    Free at last
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    I think giving the power to Boda was them getting out in front of the movie so people would not start with the Mary Sue talk again.

    Ya, pretty weak. But I guess we may see where this character is going and what his origins truly are, so something may get explained there.
  • LordDirt wrote: »
    I think giving the power to Boda was them getting out in front of the movie so people would not start with the Mary Sue talk again.

    Most likely why they released that episode on a Wednesday instead of a Friday. The power of internet troll-dom.
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    Gifafi wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Kylo was never a Sith

    Explain a non Jedi like Cere knighting Cal after the Jedi Order was destroyed after Order 66.

    turned to the dark side by a sith and trained by a sith. just saying
    Boo wrote: »
    What I do take issue with is that Anakin sought the power to save others and stop death - as the chosen one born from the force he didn't learn this power - yet Palpatine could heal himself and somehow came back from the dead. Kylo andRey healing each other etc. Baby Yoda also used the heal ability somewhat as a natural instinct even.

    To me this doesn't make sense - it was the power that was the golden goose and now everyone can do it. Seems pretty weak to me.

    it makes perfect sense that palp was able to come back, and makes sense he didn't teach that power to vader. why would he?

    Quite simply - the sequel trilogy doesn't formerly exist. At least it doesn't in my mind.
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