TLJ in retrospect; Y/N

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Now that TROS is out, and (hopefully) everyone has seen it at least once, how is The Last Jedi in retrospect? How has you opinion changed, if at all? Try to keep any discussions non political and civil.

TLJ in retrospect; Y/N 35 votes

Still like TLJ
48%
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Still dislike TLJ
51%
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I now like TLJ
0%
I now dislike TLJ
0%

Replies

  • Gifafi
    2509 posts Member
    why would someone's opinion change after seeing tros?
  • Still like TLJ
    TROS made me realize how weak JJ is at closing out stories. Also made me lament the excellent choices facing the main characters after TLJ and how they were railroaded into the stereotypical "inheritance" tropes by TROS.
  • Ultra
    4690 posts Member
    Still like TLJ
    I enjoy TLJ a lot, especially after rewatching it a week before TROS came out

    I like TROS too, and TLJ did a lot of bold choices and gave TROS a good starting point. Wish they continued with where TLJ left off but whatever.
  • Foxer
    335 posts Member
    TLJ was bad TROS was a steaming pile of stuff... for a close out story it was horribly done and started more story’s than it finished...
  • khelzac
    198 posts Member
    edited January 12
    Still like TLJ
    I'd say the most disappointing thing about TROS was...the whole lineage thing. Weird why they did that considering Palpatine himself was a nobody before Plagueis found him.
  • kalidor
    1840 posts Member
    Still like TLJ
    Still like it, but it feels largely irrelevant now, like you could watch TFA and RoS back to back and miss very little.

    That being said, the whole sequel trilogy doesn't really grab my attention much. The plotlines of Fallen Order and Mandalorian seem stronger than ep7-9.
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • Still like TLJ
    TROS is garbage
  • Boo
    3792 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    If anything the knock-on effect that TLJ had made TROS a worse movie than it could have been.

    Quite simply Johnson killing off Snoke rather than establishing a compelling villain to drive the trilogy forward left JJ in making the decision to have Palpatine return - that just tanked the trilogy even more so.
  • Boo
    3792 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    kalidor wrote: »
    Still like it, but it feels largely irrelevant now, like you could watch TFA and RoS back to back and miss very little.

    That being said, the whole sequel trilogy doesn't really grab my attention much. The plotlines of Fallen Order and Mandalorian seem stronger than ep7-9.

    The fact you could glaze over the death of a major and important character (Luke) by watching TFA followed by TROS, right there says a lot about this trilogy.
  • Still like TLJ
    Still enjoy TLJ and appreciated it for what it was. Feel like TROS could have been better if some of the story elements from TROS were explored in TLJ. Feel like they should have given the entire trilogy to a single creative team, as it could have led to better continuity throughout. There is zero doubt in my mind that the rough contours of the sequel trilogy have been known for awhile (seeds planted as far back as the Wendig novels, etc.), but TLJ spent its time elsewhere.
  • Still like TLJ
    I think TROS made TLJ better. The themes that they continued telling in TROS that came from TLJ are great. The connection between Rey and Kylo, Kylo's inner struggle, the passing of the torch, etc.

    Bringing Palpatine back makes sense. He was the big bad for the first two trilogies, obviously he'd be the big bad in this trilogy. That's been the notion since TFA was announced. Precedence in the old EU. Maybe they could have added something about Palps in TLJ, but they didn't and it still works. Killing Snoke was a complete surprise and that made it fun.
  • Boo
    3792 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    I think TROS made TLJ better. The themes that they continued telling in TROS that came from TLJ are great. The connection between Rey and Kylo, Kylo's inner struggle, the passing of the torch, etc.

    Bringing Palpatine back makes sense. He was the big bad for the first two trilogies, obviously he'd be the big bad in this trilogy. That's been the notion since TFA was announced. Precedence in the old EU. Maybe they could have added something about Palps in TLJ, but they didn't and it still works. Killing Snoke was a complete surprise and that made it fun.

    Even though Palpatine's return undermines the first 1-6 movies and Anakin/Vader's complete story arc and purpose in the saga? Ok then.

    Johnson needed to do something great with Snoke. Snoke needed to be a copelling villain - because that is what the ST needed, whether he was a surviving Plagueis, or an ancient force user who was first drawn to the darkside which sparked the creation of the Sith - it doesn't matter - something.

    He needed to be as compelling as Palpatine or more so. He also needed to be explained as a convincing and believable villain that would make sense for the story, as Palpatine was fleshed out over 6 movies.

    Johnson was either lazy or coward away from trying to write something good with Snoke. He simply couldn't do it and picked an easy "out". By doing so he left the ST without a villain to conquer in the 3rd act and Kylo wasn't the one to fulfill this role. Palpatine's return was rushed, largely unexplained and taints the stories and themese of the prior movies.
  • Gifafi
    2509 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    I think TROS made TLJ better. The themes that they continued telling in TROS that came from TLJ are great. The connection between Rey and Kylo, Kylo's inner struggle, the passing of the torch, etc.

    Bringing Palpatine back makes sense. He was the big bad for the first two trilogies, obviously he'd be the big bad in this trilogy. That's been the notion since TFA was announced. Precedence in the old EU. Maybe they could have added something about Palps in TLJ, but they didn't and it still works. Killing Snoke was a complete surprise and that made it fun.

    Even though Palpatine's return undermines the first 1-6 movies and Anakin/Vader's complete story arc and purpose in the saga? Ok then.

    Johnson needed to do something great with Snoke. Snoke needed to be a copelling villain - because that is what the ST needed, whether he was a surviving Plagueis, or an ancient force user who was first drawn to the darkside which sparked the creation of the Sith - it doesn't matter - something.

    He needed to be as compelling as Palpatine or more so. He also needed to be explained as a convincing and believable villain that would make sense for the story, as Palpatine was fleshed out over 6 movies.

    Johnson was either lazy or coward away from trying to write something good with Snoke. He simply couldn't do it and picked an easy "out". By doing so he left the ST without a villain to conquer in the 3rd act and Kylo wasn't the one to fulfill this role. Palpatine's return was rushed, largely unexplained and taints the stories and themese of the prior movies.

    why would palpatine's return affect vader's arc? it's literally the same arc. vader still redeemed, so...?

    and snoke was the worst, most boring villain ever. it made sense that he was just a figment/projection/ w/e. I mean, could he have been any more lame? TROS makes more sense than suddenly introducing some new baddy.
  • Still like TLJ
    I don’t understand how people say it ruined 1-6. Even Yoda says they might have misinterpreted the prophecy. When Vader “kills” Palpatine and then dies he did bring balance but only after 7-9. With Luke living there in no balance since there is only light. With Palpatine still living there is dark. Two super powerful beings, balance. Once Luke started his Jedi Temple he created imbalance and so you get Kylo Ren. He kills the Jedi and Luke cuts himself off from the Force and then it is unbalanced again so then you get Rey. Now with her being alive it is unbalanced again. He n and on we go.

    I thought a better ending would have had Rey and Ben Solo living and setting up a Force Temple together that taught all of the Force as they both used it that way. Would be going back thousands of years like they did before.
  • TVF
    18970 posts Member
    People have been saying a follow up ruined the previous one since Empire.
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Still like TLJ
    Boo wrote: »
    I think TROS made TLJ better. The themes that they continued telling in TROS that came from TLJ are great. The connection between Rey and Kylo, Kylo's inner struggle, the passing of the torch, etc.

    Bringing Palpatine back makes sense. He was the big bad for the first two trilogies, obviously he'd be the big bad in this trilogy. That's been the notion since TFA was announced. Precedence in the old EU. Maybe they could have added something about Palps in TLJ, but they didn't and it still works. Killing Snoke was a complete surprise and that made it fun.

    Even though Palpatine's return undermines the first 1-6 movies and Anakin/Vader's complete story arc and purpose in the saga? Ok then.

    Nah, doesn’t undermine it at all. Anakin brought balance in terms of defeating the Sith. But there’s always going to be evil, no matter what. I think the story could have been fleshed out in TLJ to make Palps return not as rushed as you say, but still. Rather see Palps up there on the throne vs. anyone else if this story is still about the Skywalkers. And besides, Like I said. There’s some precedence for it in the EU, so it’s cool they ran with the idea. Rushed or not, it worked for me.
  • Still like TLJ
    Unpopular opinion: If anything, TROS makes me wish that Rian Johnson finished out the trilogy. It's clear he had a vision of where it should end up(given how far off traditional Star Wars he veered TLJ), but JJ tried his hardest to steer it back to nostalgia territory.

    While I wish had more screentime with hero Luke before his demise, I respect what Rian was trying to do. He was trying to let the sequel trilogy stand on its own rather than being a young cast taking a tour of the old familiar faces and places(which was what JJ was doing). That's why he killed off Luke and Snoke. He wanted to new cast to take center stage. And besides, Snoke was lazily written in anyway.
  • Boo
    3792 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I think TROS made TLJ better. The themes that they continued telling in TROS that came from TLJ are great. The connection between Rey and Kylo, Kylo's inner struggle, the passing of the torch, etc.

    Bringing Palpatine back makes sense. He was the big bad for the first two trilogies, obviously he'd be the big bad in this trilogy. That's been the notion since TFA was announced. Precedence in the old EU. Maybe they could have added something about Palps in TLJ, but they didn't and it still works. Killing Snoke was a complete surprise and that made it fun.

    Even though Palpatine's return undermines the first 1-6 movies and Anakin/Vader's complete story arc and purpose in the saga? Ok then.

    Johnson needed to do something great with Snoke. Snoke needed to be a copelling villain - because that is what the ST needed, whether he was a surviving Plagueis, or an ancient force user who was first drawn to the darkside which sparked the creation of the Sith - it doesn't matter - something.

    He needed to be as compelling as Palpatine or more so. He also needed to be explained as a convincing and believable villain that would make sense for the story, as Palpatine was fleshed out over 6 movies.

    Johnson was either lazy or coward away from trying to write something good with Snoke. He simply couldn't do it and picked an easy "out". By doing so he left the ST without a villain to conquer in the 3rd act and Kylo wasn't the one to fulfill this role. Palpatine's return was rushed, largely unexplained and taints the stories and themese of the prior movies.

    why would palpatine's return affect vader's arc? it's literally the same arc. vader still redeemed, so...?

    and snoke was the worst, most boring villain ever. it made sense that he was just a figment/projection/ w/e. I mean, could he have been any more lame? TROS makes more sense than suddenly introducing some new baddy.

    It wasn't just about his redemption it was about his destiny set by the prophecy. His fall to the darkside and redemption were part of his destiny - so was the destruction of Palpatine and the Sith.

    Snoke was a boring character because he wasn't fleshed out and written in a compelling way, which I have illustrated. Johnson killing him off as a nobody just set it all in stone.

    Suddenly introducing any villain in the 3rd and final act of a trilogy, whether it was a new villain or one that has been explained and already come to a conclusion...death, is poor.

    It's like having Blowfeld in 007's Spectre be the mastermind of all prior movies - several of the movies it makes complete sense, but not the events of Skyfall, which they tried to make him responsible for. Its forced and illogical. Same can be said for Palpatine.
  • Boo
    3792 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    Boo wrote: »
    I think TROS made TLJ better. The themes that they continued telling in TROS that came from TLJ are great. The connection between Rey and Kylo, Kylo's inner struggle, the passing of the torch, etc.

    Bringing Palpatine back makes sense. He was the big bad for the first two trilogies, obviously he'd be the big bad in this trilogy. That's been the notion since TFA was announced. Precedence in the old EU. Maybe they could have added something about Palps in TLJ, but they didn't and it still works. Killing Snoke was a complete surprise and that made it fun.

    Even though Palpatine's return undermines the first 1-6 movies and Anakin/Vader's complete story arc and purpose in the saga? Ok then.

    Nah, doesn’t undermine it at all. Anakin brought balance in terms of defeating the Sith. But there’s always going to be evil, no matter what. I think the story could have been fleshed out in TLJ to make Palps return not as rushed as you say, but still. Rather see Palps up there on the throne vs. anyone else if this story is still about the Skywalkers. And besides, Like I said. There’s some precedence for it in the EU, so it’s cool they ran with the idea. Rushed or not, it worked for me.

    Yes - Anakin was never going to destroy the Darkside, but he was destined to destroy the Sith. TFA and TLJ were careful not to resurrect the Sith as the sagas antagonists, until Snoke was done away without a logical thought from Johnson.

    Vader's sacrifice in fulfilling the prophecy saw his redemption and saving his son was part of his arc for completing the prophecy.

    But the prophecy wasn't fulfilled. His story arc is now tainted and diminished.

    We got what we got with this trilogy and a compelling Snoke with a believable backstory into his rise of power and place within the Saga is what this trilogy needed, not a re-hash of past villains already conquered through a compelling story arc and plot.
  • Boo
    3792 posts Member
    edited January 13
    Still dislike TLJ
    willennium wrote: »
    Unpopular opinion: If anything, TROS makes me wish that Rian Johnson finished out the trilogy. It's clear he had a vision of where it should end up(given how far off traditional Star Wars he veered TLJ), but JJ tried his hardest to steer it back to nostalgia territory.

    While I wish had more screentime with hero Luke before his demise, I respect what Rian was trying to do. He was trying to let the sequel trilogy stand on its own rather than being a young cast taking a tour of the old familiar faces and places(which was what JJ was doing). That's why he killed off Luke and Snoke. He wanted to new cast to take center stage. And besides, Snoke was lazily written in anyway.

    I dread to think where Johnson was going, but I honestly believe he had no vision as to where his story of TLJ was leading the trilogy. He came in and did his part, selfishly made the movie he wanted. He avoided anything to compelling and washed his hands with it all.

    If anything JJ should have been given creative control over the entire ST - that would have been more interesting. I bet we would have got something very different indeed.

    As for Luke - again, the ST easily could have stood out on its own if it had been more respectful to prior characters. It didn't need to minimize and diminish those beloved characters in order to make the new shine. Again, that is nothing short of lazy writing.

    I was massively looking forward to the character of Rey - a charismatic female Jedi lead, but we got what we got. A boring Mary Sue.
  • trevyclause
    376 posts Member
    edited January 13
    Still like TLJ
    Boo wrote: »
    willennium wrote: »
    Unpopular opinion: If anything, TROS makes me wish that Rian Johnson finished out the trilogy. It's clear he had a vision of where it should end up(given how far off traditional Star Wars he veered TLJ), but JJ tried his hardest to steer it back to nostalgia territory.

    While I wish had more screentime with hero Luke before his demise, I respect what Rian was trying to do. He was trying to let the sequel trilogy stand on its own rather than being a young cast taking a tour of the old familiar faces and places(which was what JJ was doing). That's why he killed off Luke and Snoke. He wanted to new cast to take center stage. And besides, Snoke was lazily written in anyway.

    I dread to think where Johnson was going, but I honestly believe he had no vision as to where his story of TLJ was leading the trilogy. He came in and did his part, selfishly made the movie he wanted. He avoided anything to compelling and washed his hands with it all.

    If anything JJ should have been given creative control over the entire ST - that would have been more interesting. I bet we would have got something very different indeed.

    As for Luke - again, the ST easily could have stood out on its own if it had been more respectful to prior characters. It didn't need to minimize and diminish those beloved characters in order to make the new shine. Again, that is nothing short of lazy writing.

    I was massively looking forward to the character of Rey - a charismatic female Jedi lead, but we got what we got. A boring Mary Sue.

    I was tyhinking about this and remembered reading Master & Apprentice when it came out in 2019. Great book, everyone should read especially if you like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

    Anyways, here's the Chosen One prophecy in it's entirety.

    "Only through sacrifice of many Jedi will the Order cleanse the sin done to the nameless. The danger of the past is not past, but sleeps in an egg. When the egg cracks, it will threaten the galaxy entire. When the Force itself sickens, past and future must split and combine. A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."

    Who knows what the heck the first part means. But, iurns out Anakin was not meant to destroy the Sith, which is reinforced by the fact that Yoda states the prophecy may have been misread or misinterpreted (can't remember the exact wording). He was meant to bring balance, which for some is still up for debate on what that really means.

    There is also another prophecy in the book that I totally forgot about and now is mind-blowing:

    “When the righteous lose the light, evil once dead shall return.”

    I wonder if that refers to Luke cutting himself off from the force... Thereby giving Palps the strength to rise again?

    Fun conversation. Boo, I think you make really good points. It would be really interesting to see the entire sequel trilogy have a different story (and frankly Luke's story not so... grumpy). Maybe Snoke is the leader of the Yuhzong Vong or something, you know?

    But like you said, this is the story we got. We can choose to run with it and find the good stuff in it and enjoy it, or we can choose to dislike it (which is totally fine) and enjoy other Star Wars stuff, like the Mandolorian or Fallen Order or this stupid yet addicting and entertaining game.
  • Still like TLJ
    Boo wrote: »
    willennium wrote: »
    Unpopular opinion: If anything, TROS makes me wish that Rian Johnson finished out the trilogy. It's clear he had a vision of where it should end up(given how far off traditional Star Wars he veered TLJ), but JJ tried his hardest to steer it back to nostalgia territory.

    While I wish had more screentime with hero Luke before his demise, I respect what Rian was trying to do. He was trying to let the sequel trilogy stand on its own rather than being a young cast taking a tour of the old familiar faces and places(which was what JJ was doing). That's why he killed off Luke and Snoke. He wanted to new cast to take center stage. And besides, Snoke was lazily written in anyway.

    I dread to think where Johnson was going, but I honestly believe he had no vision as to where his story of TLJ was leading the trilogy. He came in and did his part, selfishly made the movie he wanted. He avoided anything to compelling and washed his hands with it all.

    If anything JJ should have been given creative control over the entire ST - that would have been more interesting. I bet we would have got something very different indeed.

    As for Luke - again, the ST easily could have stood out on its own if it had been more respectful to prior characters. It didn't need to minimize and diminish those beloved characters in order to make the new shine. Again, that is nothing short of lazy writing.

    I was massively looking forward to the character of Rey - a charismatic female Jedi lead, but we got what we got. A boring Mary Sue.

    I gotta disagree with you on that. IMO, Rian Johnson is a much better at giving his movies substance than while JJ is more about flash(and with Star Wars, making viewers feel nostalgic).

    I mean, just look at TFA.. it was a pretty much a play-by-play of ANH.
    • Journey to find a hero who is practically in self-exile that can save every one (Obi-Wan -> Luke).
    • Masked villain with menacing voice (Vader -> Kylo).
    • Evil army with unexplainable numbers and a planet destroying weapon (Deathstar -> Starkiller base)
    • Someone who lives a humble life becoming a hero out of necessity (Luke -> Rey)

    I mean, I could keep going, but I'm sure my point is clear.

    Also, I feel that the whole "disrespecting beloved characters" is bogus. I blame JJ for setting Luke up on a planet in isolation. Like you said, lazy writing... but on JJ's part(with his "mystery box" style of directing). Rian had to come up with a logical reason that Luke put himself into a position where he's by himself on a planet, not wanting anyone to find him. If he just came out in TLJ and willingly led the charge against the FO, it wouldn't have made sense for him to have put himself in hiding to begin with.

    Another big knock was how Rian made Rey's parents "nobodies". I don't mind this. Though it seems anticlimactic because everyone had theories about whose kid/grandkid Rey was, making up timelines and whatnot... the overall message was better. You could be a jedi, regardless of your background... They also showed that at the end of TLJ when it showed the slave kid using the force to pick up his broom or whatever(him possibly being motivated after the run in with Finn and Rose earlier in the movie). With TRoS, JJ took away that message by saying "nope, she's only strong because she's Palpatine's grandkid".
  • Still dislike TLJ
    TL;DR They're both bad, enjoyed TROS more, TLJ isn't really necessary to watch if someone just tells you that Luke and Snoke die. Watching movie itself is pointless.

    The Last Jedi was a terribly written movie. Nothing wrong with enjoying it, but it is poorly written and just very bad, for hundreds of reasons. I didn't enjoy it.

    The Rise of Skywalker is also a terribly written movie. Still nothing wrong with enjoying it, I definitely liked it, but it was poorly written and that is partially (but definitely not entirely) due to the fact that it had to fix so much of TLJ and admittedly fails to in a few instances.

    I'm not entirely sure yet why I liked TROS but did not like TLJ, despite them both being objectively bad movies (or at least, movies that are so rife with poor writing, plot holes, and conveniences that those aspects are basically trash). I need to watch the movies themselves, as well as more breakdowns far more for better understanding.
  • Boo
    3792 posts Member
    edited January 16
    Still dislike TLJ
    willennium wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    willennium wrote: »
    Unpopular opinion: If anything, TROS makes me wish that Rian Johnson finished out the trilogy. It's clear he had a vision of where it should end up(given how far off traditional Star Wars he veered TLJ), but JJ tried his hardest to steer it back to nostalgia territory.

    While I wish had more screentime with hero Luke before his demise, I respect what Rian was trying to do. He was trying to let the sequel trilogy stand on its own rather than being a young cast taking a tour of the old familiar faces and places(which was what JJ was doing). That's why he killed off Luke and Snoke. He wanted to new cast to take center stage. And besides, Snoke was lazily written in anyway.

    I dread to think where Johnson was going, but I honestly believe he had no vision as to where his story of TLJ was leading the trilogy. He came in and did his part, selfishly made the movie he wanted. He avoided anything to compelling and washed his hands with it all.

    If anything JJ should have been given creative control over the entire ST - that would have been more interesting. I bet we would have got something very different indeed.

    As for Luke - again, the ST easily could have stood out on its own if it had been more respectful to prior characters. It didn't need to minimize and diminish those beloved characters in order to make the new shine. Again, that is nothing short of lazy writing.

    I was massively looking forward to the character of Rey - a charismatic female Jedi lead, but we got what we got. A boring Mary Sue.

    I gotta disagree with you on that. IMO, Rian Johnson is a much better at giving his movies substance than while JJ is more about flash(and with Star Wars, making viewers feel nostalgic).

    I mean, just look at TFA.. it was a pretty much a play-by-play of ANH.
    • Journey to find a hero who is practically in self-exile that can save every one (Obi-Wan -> Luke).
    • Masked villain with menacing voice (Vader -> Kylo).
    • Evil army with unexplainable numbers and a planet destroying weapon (Deathstar -> Starkiller base)
    • Someone who lives a humble life becoming a hero out of necessity (Luke -> Rey)

    I mean, I could keep going, but I'm sure my point is clear.

    Also, I feel that the whole "disrespecting beloved characters" is bogus. I blame JJ for setting Luke up on a planet in isolation. Like you said, lazy writing... but on JJ's part(with his "mystery box" style of directing). Rian had to come up with a logical reason that Luke put himself into a position where he's by himself on a planet, not wanting anyone to find him. If he just came out in TLJ and willingly led the charge against the FO, it wouldn't have made sense for him to have put himself in hiding to begin with.

    Another big knock was how Rian made Rey's parents "nobodies". I don't mind this. Though it seems anticlimactic because everyone had theories about whose kid/grandkid Rey was, making up timelines and whatnot... the overall message was better. You could be a jedi, regardless of your background... They also showed that at the end of TLJ when it showed the slave kid using the force to pick up his broom or whatever(him possibly being motivated after the run in with Finn and Rose earlier in the movie). With TRoS, JJ took away that message by saying "nope, she's only strong because she's Palpatine's grandkid".

    Johnson didn't seem to understand the need for having a compelling villain to drive the saga forward and to overcome in act 3.

    Johnson was lazy or was a coward and couldn't or didn't want to spend the time coming up with a believable and compelling character for Snoke and his purpose within the saga - he just killed him off and Kylo was not a strong enough candidate to carry that mantle in the concluding movie.

    JJ had Luke on that island with the force whirling around him - this was cut before the release of TFA, due to Johnson's script and direction for TLJ. There could have been any number of reasons why Luke was on that island - perhaps to find answers about the rise of the darkside, the prophecy of his father and his own existence by extension and how he could set it right - that would have been in more keeping with Luke's character than what we saw in TLJ - a cranky old hermit who had given up on his friends, family and the galaxy, because by nearly murdering his nephew created Kylo Ren - that was so weak, half the fanbase and Mark Hamill agree Luke was out of character.

    I also disagree on the take that Rey's parents were nobodies and anyone could be a jedi - it was established lore that anyone could be a jedi as long as they genetically had the midichlorians to speak to the force. The other part of established lore was that the Skywalker family was created by the force and their bloodline was the most potent with the force. Having a "nobody" come along and best trained force users who belong to that lineage was just crazy. The fact Rey is a Palpatine also does not excuse this.

    Johnson derailed the saga so much so that so much time was spent in TROS trying to put things right.

    JJ had draft stories for E7-9, I agree with your points on JJ, but at least it would have been a cohesive story. Would have been interesting to see what we would have got from that.
  • Vendi1983
    3596 posts Member
    edited January 16
    Still like TLJ
    Except Johnson set up Kylo to be driven by Luke's humiliation of him on Crait.

    - it's essentially flipping the ESB/ROTJ narrative on it's head. The "big baddie" Abrams hinted at with Snoke ends up getting overthrown by his own apprentice. Essentially if Vader had killed the Emperor in true power-hungry Sith-style instead of in an attempt to redeem himself and recognizing his failings to save his son. Imagine a 4th OT Movie where Luke had to battle his own father who is now in full control of the Empire.

    Anyway, back to ST, after finding out that the "story" of what happened leaked, Kylo goes into full shutdown mode attempting to turn the direction of the story or prevent it's spread so that the Resistance doesn't gain ground or followers.

    If you tie all of this in to actual human historical conflicts like Lucas was attempting to do with the OT and PT then the ST would have fit the mould perfectly. Modern dictatorial governments in the age of mass-communication attempting to control the narrative of what's going on in terms of insurgency or uprisings. The attempt to control inevitably fails but not at great human and moral cost.

    I'm sure based on the leaks of Colin's idea for Ep 9 that that's where they were going with it.
  • Still like TLJ
    willennium wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Except Johnson set up Kylo to be driven by Luke's humiliation of him on Crait.

    - it's essentially flipping the ESB/ROTJ narrative on it's head. The "big baddie" Abrams hinted at with Snoke ends up getting overthrown by his own apprentice. Essentially if Vader had killed the Emperor in true power-hungry Sith-style instead of in an attempt to redeem himself and recognizing his failings to save his son. Imagine a 4th OT Movie where Luke had to battle his own father who is now in full control of the Empire.
    .
    This guy gets it!

    but it's annoying when people try to "prove" how it's objectively bad when it really just boils down to opinions.

    +1
  • Boo
    3792 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    willennium wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Except Johnson set up Kylo to be driven by Luke's humiliation of him on Crait.

    - it's essentially flipping the ESB/ROTJ narrative on it's head. The "big baddie" Abrams hinted at with Snoke ends up getting overthrown by his own apprentice. Essentially if Vader had killed the Emperor in true power-hungry Sith-style instead of in an attempt to redeem himself and recognizing his failings to save his son. Imagine a 4th OT Movie where Luke had to battle his own father who is now in full control of the Empire.
    .
    This guy gets it!

    Rather than the same setup of the Palpatine/Vader dynamic, where Vader was the main villain shown on screen, but he was doing his overlord's will, Rian took out the middle man and set up a power hungry Kylo to be the main antagonist. IMO, Snoke was bad writing to begin with. He practically inherited the Galactic Empire, but has no known backstory, wasn't a ranking member of the Galactic Empire, no known ties to the Sith, yet he is some all powerful Force user? It's understandable to shift the focus to characters that the movie is actually centered on.

    Logically, the leader of the First Order should've been someone who had existing ties to the Empire like a high ranking officer who was still alive after Endor or something like that, but instead it went some one created out of the blue to literally mimic Palpatine's role. That only worked with Palpatine because the Star Wars timeline was a blank slate at that point he was introduced. It doesn't work in the sequel trilogy because a canonical timeline exists, so it seems more bogus to have some all powerful being that has been creeping in the shadows for decades to rise to power out of nowhere... Hence the questions about where he was from, what is he, why has no one noticed him in the past, why now, where was he during prequel trilogy, where was he during OT, etc... And now it seems like a copout when you discover what he was in TRoS.

    I get why people don't like TLJ, and I'm perfectly fine debating points of the movie, but it's annoying when people try to "prove" how it's objectively bad when it really just boils down to opinions. No amount of youtube breakdowns that claim to prove how TLJ is a "complete cinematic failure" will show otherwise. Those guys aren't film experts, they're people so mad at the direction the story went in that they want to tear it apart. That's the definition of subjective bias.

    I agree with a lot of your points, but again, what Johnson failed to recognize was that Kylo wasn't strong enough to be the big bad guy - if he had beaten Rey in TFA before she was rescued by the planet cracking apart and Chewie in the Falcon, maybe they could have gone somewhere with him. But he was hands down beaten by an untrained force user multiple times in TFA alone.

    He also destroyed the new big bad villain, Snoke, by doing nothing more than a cheap sucker punch move.

    He was proven to be a wannabe Vader with temper tantrums who had already been beaten a number of times - there was no "Villain/Evil" presence for him on screen.

    Lets say Snoke was Plagueis - he could have foreseen the future of the sith and the prophecy and sought real power in the force by leaving the trappings of the sith teachings that only focused on the darkside, where true power came from both the light and the dark. He could easily have "risen again" due to his power to do so already explained and usurped the armies of his old apprentice after ROTJ.

    This would carry on a narrative of a big villain, explain his back story and by making him Sidious' old master - we would expect some terrible things from him indeed.

    That is but one direction they could have gone - again, Johnson didn't.

    Perhaps in TLJ Snoke could have revealed his backstory, and Kylo could have been redeemed with Rey where they could have escaped together. They could have been a Jedi duo in TROS to take out Snoke and his remaining forces. The also could have made the Knights of Ren force wielders with different lightsaber styles that Rey & Kylo could have fought - what we got out of them was a whole lot of nothing as well.

    Again, there were multiple "better" directions where this ST could have gone - but it didn't.

    TLJ I wouldn't call a "cinematic" failure, but it was a failure to the franchise without a doubt. It split the fanbase and caused serious issues not only for the ST, but for the entire franchise to move on from.

    Its not opinions as to why TLJ was bad, it literally took the established lore of the franchise and flushed it down the toilet. It also disregarded important story lines and plots as well as established and beloved characters. TROS tried to set some of these things right, but it didn't set some of the most important issues right.
  • TVF
    18970 posts Member
    TLJ: Y
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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