TLJ in retrospect; Y/N

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Replies

  • Boo
    3926 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    TVF wrote: »
    TLJ: Y

    ?, Dude you have to be a little more literal in these conversations sometimes, lol
  • TVF
    19611 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    TLJ: Y

    ?, Dude you have to be a little more literal in these conversations sometimes, lol

    The thread title asks yes or no on TLJ in retrospect. In retrospect, my answer is yes. I still like it.
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Boo
    3926 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    TVF wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    TLJ: Y

    ?, Dude you have to be a little more literal in these conversations sometimes, lol

    The thread title asks yes or no on TLJ in retrospect. In retrospect, my answer is yes. I still like it.

    Aha - fair enough mate.
  • Still like TLJ
    Boo wrote: »
    willennium wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Except Johnson set up Kylo to be driven by Luke's humiliation of him on Crait.

    - it's essentially flipping the ESB/ROTJ narrative on it's head. The "big baddie" Abrams hinted at with Snoke ends up getting overthrown by his own apprentice. Essentially if Vader had killed the Emperor in true power-hungry Sith-style instead of in an attempt to redeem himself and recognizing his failings to save his son. Imagine a 4th OT Movie where Luke had to battle his own father who is now in full control of the Empire.
    .
    This guy gets it!

    Rather than the same setup of the Palpatine/Vader dynamic, where Vader was the main villain shown on screen, but he was doing his overlord's will, Rian took out the middle man and set up a power hungry Kylo to be the main antagonist. IMO, Snoke was bad writing to begin with. He practically inherited the Galactic Empire, but has no known backstory, wasn't a ranking member of the Galactic Empire, no known ties to the Sith, yet he is some all powerful Force user? It's understandable to shift the focus to characters that the movie is actually centered on.

    Logically, the leader of the First Order should've been someone who had existing ties to the Empire like a high ranking officer who was still alive after Endor or something like that, but instead it went some one created out of the blue to literally mimic Palpatine's role. That only worked with Palpatine because the Star Wars timeline was a blank slate at that point he was introduced. It doesn't work in the sequel trilogy because a canonical timeline exists, so it seems more bogus to have some all powerful being that has been creeping in the shadows for decades to rise to power out of nowhere... Hence the questions about where he was from, what is he, why has no one noticed him in the past, why now, where was he during prequel trilogy, where was he during OT, etc... And now it seems like a copout when you discover what he was in TRoS.

    I get why people don't like TLJ, and I'm perfectly fine debating points of the movie, but it's annoying when people try to "prove" how it's objectively bad when it really just boils down to opinions. No amount of youtube breakdowns that claim to prove how TLJ is a "complete cinematic failure" will show otherwise. Those guys aren't film experts, they're people so mad at the direction the story went in that they want to tear it apart. That's the definition of subjective bias.

    I agree with a lot of your points, but again, what Johnson failed to recognize was that Kylo wasn't strong enough to be the big bad guy - if he had beaten Rey in TFA before she was rescued by the planet cracking apart and Chewie in the Falcon, maybe they could have gone somewhere with him. But he was hands down beaten by an untrained force user multiple times in TFA alone.

    He also destroyed the new big bad villain, Snoke, by doing nothing more than a cheap sucker punch move.

    He was proven to be a wannabe Vader with temper tantrums who had already been beaten a number of times - there was no "Villain/Evil" presence for him on screen.

    Lets say Snoke was Plagueis - he could have foreseen the future of the sith and the prophecy and sought real power in the force by leaving the trappings of the sith teachings that only focused on the darkside, where true power came from both the light and the dark. He could easily have "risen again" due to his power to do so already explained and usurped the armies of his old apprentice after ROTJ.

    This would carry on a narrative of a big villain, explain his back story and by making him Sidious' old master - we would expect some terrible things from him indeed.

    That is but one direction they could have gone - again, Johnson didn't.

    Perhaps in TLJ Snoke could have revealed his backstory, and Kylo could have been redeemed with Rey where they could have escaped together. They could have been a Jedi duo in TROS to take out Snoke and his remaining forces. The also could have made the Knights of Ren force wielders with different lightsaber styles that Rey & Kylo could have fought - what we got out of them was a whole lot of nothing as well.

    Again, there were multiple "better" directions where this ST could have gone - but it didn't.

    TLJ I wouldn't call a "cinematic" failure, but it was a failure to the franchise without a doubt. It split the fanbase and caused serious issues not only for the ST, but for the entire franchise to move on from.

    Its not opinions as to why TLJ was bad, it literally took the established lore of the franchise and flushed it down the toilet. It also disregarded important story lines and plots as well as established and beloved characters. TROS tried to set some of these things right, but it didn't set some of the most important issues right.

    Yeah I get that POV. There's a lot of things that could've been done differently, but counterpoint: There's also a lot of things that JJ could've done differently in TRoS rather than try to play to nostalgia to "win back" fans who were upset about what transpired in TLJ. It's not like TLJ made the story unsalvageable. He could've went all in on Kylo becoming the main "big bad" rather than having him kill his master to eventually serve under another master. They could've ditched the Kylo redemption arc and had him and Rey actually duel to the death. They could've kept the Kylo redemption arc, but have Hux or the other guy take the reigns of the First Order for the final battles. They could've had force ghost Luke appear and still be a mentor figure to Rey. The list can endlessly go on... Also, to be fair, I'm Carrie Fisher's death heavily impacted the final product since they still wanted her to play a major role but did not want to CGI her, leaving them having to work around existing footage.

    I agree with you on that there were multiple "better" directions where the ST could've gone, I just disagree on where the blame lies in its issues.
  • Boo
    3926 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    willennium wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    willennium wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Except Johnson set up Kylo to be driven by Luke's humiliation of him on Crait.

    - it's essentially flipping the ESB/ROTJ narrative on it's head. The "big baddie" Abrams hinted at with Snoke ends up getting overthrown by his own apprentice. Essentially if Vader had killed the Emperor in true power-hungry Sith-style instead of in an attempt to redeem himself and recognizing his failings to save his son. Imagine a 4th OT Movie where Luke had to battle his own father who is now in full control of the Empire.
    .
    This guy gets it!

    Rather than the same setup of the Palpatine/Vader dynamic, where Vader was the main villain shown on screen, but he was doing his overlord's will, Rian took out the middle man and set up a power hungry Kylo to be the main antagonist. IMO, Snoke was bad writing to begin with. He practically inherited the Galactic Empire, but has no known backstory, wasn't a ranking member of the Galactic Empire, no known ties to the Sith, yet he is some all powerful Force user? It's understandable to shift the focus to characters that the movie is actually centered on.

    Logically, the leader of the First Order should've been someone who had existing ties to the Empire like a high ranking officer who was still alive after Endor or something like that, but instead it went some one created out of the blue to literally mimic Palpatine's role. That only worked with Palpatine because the Star Wars timeline was a blank slate at that point he was introduced. It doesn't work in the sequel trilogy because a canonical timeline exists, so it seems more bogus to have some all powerful being that has been creeping in the shadows for decades to rise to power out of nowhere... Hence the questions about where he was from, what is he, why has no one noticed him in the past, why now, where was he during prequel trilogy, where was he during OT, etc... And now it seems like a copout when you discover what he was in TRoS.

    I get why people don't like TLJ, and I'm perfectly fine debating points of the movie, but it's annoying when people try to "prove" how it's objectively bad when it really just boils down to opinions. No amount of youtube breakdowns that claim to prove how TLJ is a "complete cinematic failure" will show otherwise. Those guys aren't film experts, they're people so mad at the direction the story went in that they want to tear it apart. That's the definition of subjective bias.

    I agree with a lot of your points, but again, what Johnson failed to recognize was that Kylo wasn't strong enough to be the big bad guy - if he had beaten Rey in TFA before she was rescued by the planet cracking apart and Chewie in the Falcon, maybe they could have gone somewhere with him. But he was hands down beaten by an untrained force user multiple times in TFA alone.

    He also destroyed the new big bad villain, Snoke, by doing nothing more than a cheap sucker punch move.

    He was proven to be a wannabe Vader with temper tantrums who had already been beaten a number of times - there was no "Villain/Evil" presence for him on screen.

    Lets say Snoke was Plagueis - he could have foreseen the future of the sith and the prophecy and sought real power in the force by leaving the trappings of the sith teachings that only focused on the darkside, where true power came from both the light and the dark. He could easily have "risen again" due to his power to do so already explained and usurped the armies of his old apprentice after ROTJ.

    This would carry on a narrative of a big villain, explain his back story and by making him Sidious' old master - we would expect some terrible things from him indeed.

    That is but one direction they could have gone - again, Johnson didn't.

    Perhaps in TLJ Snoke could have revealed his backstory, and Kylo could have been redeemed with Rey where they could have escaped together. They could have been a Jedi duo in TROS to take out Snoke and his remaining forces. The also could have made the Knights of Ren force wielders with different lightsaber styles that Rey & Kylo could have fought - what we got out of them was a whole lot of nothing as well.

    Again, there were multiple "better" directions where this ST could have gone - but it didn't.

    TLJ I wouldn't call a "cinematic" failure, but it was a failure to the franchise without a doubt. It split the fanbase and caused serious issues not only for the ST, but for the entire franchise to move on from.

    Its not opinions as to why TLJ was bad, it literally took the established lore of the franchise and flushed it down the toilet. It also disregarded important story lines and plots as well as established and beloved characters. TROS tried to set some of these things right, but it didn't set some of the most important issues right.

    Yeah I get that POV. There's a lot of things that could've been done differently, but counterpoint: There's also a lot of things that JJ could've done differently in TRoS rather than try to play to nostalgia to "win back" fans who were upset about what transpired in TLJ. It's not like TLJ made the story unsalvageable. He could've went all in on Kylo becoming the main "big bad" rather than having him kill his master to eventually serve under another master. They could've ditched the Kylo redemption arc and had him and Rey actually duel to the death. They could've kept the Kylo redemption arc, but have Hux or the other guy take the reigns of the First Order for the final battles. They could've had force ghost Luke appear and still be a mentor figure to Rey. The list can endlessly go on... Also, to be fair, I'm Carrie Fisher's death heavily impacted the final product since they still wanted her to play a major role but did not want to CGI her, leaving them having to work around existing footage.

    I agree with you on that there were multiple "better" directions where the ST could've gone, I just disagree on where the blame lies in its issues.

    I totally agree with what you say.

    But on a side note, JJ had to change the ending of TFA due to Johnson's script of TLJ in regard to the direction of Luke's character.

    No reason they couldn't have changed the direction of TROS in regard to Leia, as Carrie died before the release of TLJ. They could have kept her "death" in TLJ and have Luke continue into TROS and avoided the whole use of unused Carrie footage to give them better control in the story of Rey's training and mentor into TROS.

    Like you say, there is a million things they could have done.

    But I'll stand by my statement that Kylo wasn't a compelling enough villain to carry the franchise forward as the main antagonist. Particularly as this is the end of the "Skywalker Saga" ultimately having the Skywalkers fall to the darkside and kill everyone doesn't put them in a good light in order to call it the "Skywalker Saga" - Kylo's redemption was needed/necessary.

    I also stand by the idea that a mere officer such as Hux or anyone also would not fill the shoes left by Snoke - as this is Star Wars - the final villain is needed to be battled through duels of the force or lightsabers and a mere "officer" couldn't carry it forward to a successful climactic end either.

    This reinforces the reason why Johnson needed to write Snoke to be a compelling villain - his failure to do so completely derailed the ST in that respect. JJ brought back Palpatine because he realized the need of a villain to fill that role (and it wasn't going to be Kylo).

    Having said that I agree what you say - JJ could have done other things, rather than play to the nostalgia in fans, which included bringing back Palpatine. Palpatine's return is a huge reason why I think TROS failed, as it undermined E1-6 and Anakin/Vader's character and story arc by making him return, it was just as damaging as TLJ was. So in my mind TROS retconned very little in order to save the ST.
  • Still dislike TLJ
    I'm in the camp of "TLJ made the series unsalvageable." TFA started the unraveling, TLJ finished it. There should be more to tie the stories together than shiny lights. But that's all we really have now. Shiny lights, telepathy, telekinesis. X-men in space.

    Stick to the lore or the story gets lost. However outlandish and magical it is, you have to stay in your universe. You can't just throw any old story up on the screen, give them laser swords, and call it Star Wars. Without the lore, it just doesn't matter.
  • Boo
    3926 posts Member
    Still dislike TLJ
    I'm in the camp of "TLJ made the series unsalvageable." TFA started the unraveling, TLJ finished it. There should be more to tie the stories together than shiny lights. But that's all we really have now. Shiny lights, telepathy, telekinesis. X-men in space.

    Stick to the lore or the story gets lost. However outlandish and magical it is, you have to stay in your universe. You can't just throw any old story up on the screen, give them laser swords, and call it Star Wars. Without the lore, it just doesn't matter.

    100%
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