Daze Vs Complex abilities

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I do not exactly understand the reason why I cannot target a dazed ally with the Ghost's "Static Jammer" ability.

Obviously, the dazed ally should not come to assist, but this is a complex ability and the first part of it (in the description at least) is granting stealth for X turns.

AFAIK Daze does not prevent buff gaining so... Anyone got a good explanation or this? Or is this perhaps a minor bug?

Replies

  • I don’t know why it does this, but this is not the only instance. You cannot target a dazed or stunned ally to assist with others like Ezra or Hera either. Maybe the “cannot assist” part makes them an invalid target.
  • Gifafi
    4924 posts Member
    I don’t know why it does this, but this is not the only instance. You cannot target a dazed or stunned ally to assist with others like Ezra or Hera either. Maybe the “cannot assist” part makes them an invalid target.

    yeah this is what it seems like. if they can't assist they can't be targeted (no lil yellow arrow thingies). but I can see op's point that it could do part of the ability (the stealth in this case). seems wai, but idk
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • This is probably to stop players from "wasting" the ability on someone who can't assist. Because we would have complaints if they could target someone to assist even if they weren't able to.
  • This is probably to stop players from "wasting" the ability on someone who can't assist. Because we would have complaints if they could target someone to assist even if they weren't able to.

    Some characters let you select a dazed toon other do not. I think bastilla is one that can buff someone who then they wont assist if dazed.
  • TVF
    25163 posts Member
    This is probably to stop players from "wasting" the ability on someone who can't assist. Because we would have complaints if they could target someone to assist even if they weren't able to.

    Some characters let you select a dazed toon other do not. I think bastilla is one that can buff someone who then they wont assist if dazed.

    She cleanses, then calls the assist.
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  • Then i would suggest to re-write the description: Target ally and some others come to assist. Then the target assistant and the Ghost gain stealth. This way it would be obvious that the target does not classify as assistant (bc the assist never occured) thus it shouldnt gain stealth either.

    Problem is having 2 in stealth in a 3v3 opening is a soft forced taunt for obvious reasons, and whereas the rebel fleet does not require a powerup, i think this is misleading and the effect is weaker than the description.
  • I know this thread is long dead, but Hera can legally target a dazed target with her "Play to strength" ability, which is NOT a complex ability without the zeta upgrade, so there is no cleanse in it. And yes, nothing happens. So i call it ****. Let the static jammer target a dazed ally to grant stealth to that ship.

    Everything might be WAI, but it is not consistent at all
  • This is probably to stop players from "wasting" the ability on someone who can't assist. Because we would have complaints if they could target someone to assist even if they weren't able to.

    I think the reverse is true with the likes of Cassian's Guerilla Strike, if all allies are dazed he just attacks on his own, no chance to even realise noone is selectable and cancel the ability.
  • Topic up!

    Finalizer basic ability, second part:
    Target ally gains crt dmg up AND IF they are first order, they are coming to assist as well.

    You have a dazed UKR on field. you have an undazed Xanadu on field.

    Both of the ships are eligible for crt dmg up. None of them can come to assist.
    Xanada is valid target for the basic, UKR is not.

    This simply beats me.
  • Kyno
    25202 posts Moderator
    edited August 6
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Topic up!

    Finalizer basic ability, second part:
    Target ally gains crt dmg up AND IF they are first order, they are coming to assist as well.

    You have a dazed UKR on field. you have an undazed Xanadu on field.

    Both of the ships are eligible for crt dmg up. None of them can come to assist.
    Xanada is valid target for the basic, UKR is not.

    This simply beats me.

    Daze does not allow youFinalizer to select that unit for an ability that has an assist, therefore a dazed UKR is not a valid target for the basic.
    Post edited by Kyno on
  • Oh, my are we running these circles again? Literally my previous comment:

    "Hera can legally target a dazed target with her "Play to strength" ability, which is NOT a complex ability without the zeta upgrade"
  • Kyno
    25202 posts Moderator
    edited August 6
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Oh, my are we running these circles again? Literally my previous comment:

    "Hera can legally target a dazed target with her "Play to strength" ability, which is NOT a complex ability without the zeta upgrade"

    Fixed it for you. abilities are different and may have different restrictions. and her ability has a dispell attached, which is why it would allow you to target a debuffed. if it is allowing this without the zeta, then that is a bug and should be reported as such.
  • Kyno wrote: »

    Daze does not allow youFinalizer to select that unit for an ability that has an assist, therefore a dazed UKR is not a valid target for the basic.

    Do you have a source for that claim, Kyno?

    I can quote you the literal ingame description for Daze:
    "Can't assist, counter attack, or gain bonus Turn Meter."

    This does not say a word about being valid or invalid target for certain abilities. If daze really prevents this type of abilities (which semmingly is the case) then it is a bug, or the description needs an update. When it comes to the Finalizer it has minor impact, but the Ghost's Static Jammer ability is somewhat crippled by this phenomenon.

    Also, coding a criterium that modifies the list of valid targets based on the ability level seems to be rather difficult to me (I am talking about Play to Strengths). Not impossible but rather difficult, given the record we have here. I wouldnt expect that to happen. A simple description update would eliminate all the confusion. Would be even less work than the "Advantage" buff touch-up which have happened several months ago.
  • TVF
    25163 posts Member
    If a unit is dazed, it can't assist. The way they apparently chose to implement it is to not let you select the unit with an ability that includes assist. It's consistent across both fleet and squad for any unit with the ability to call an assist.

    It's a weird choice, but it is what it is.
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  • Kyno
    25202 posts Moderator
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »

    Daze does not allow youFinalizer to select that unit for an ability that has an assist, therefore a dazed UKR is not a valid target for the basic.

    Do you have a source for that claim, Kyno?

    I can quote you the literal ingame description for Daze:
    "Can't assist, counter attack, or gain bonus Turn Meter."

    This does not say a word about being valid or invalid target for certain abilities. If daze really prevents this type of abilities (which semmingly is the case) then it is a bug, or the description needs an update. When it comes to the Finalizer it has minor impact, but the Ghost's Static Jammer ability is somewhat crippled by this phenomenon.

    Also, coding a criterium that modifies the list of valid targets based on the ability level seems to be rather difficult to me (I am talking about Play to Strengths). Not impossible but rather difficult, given the record we have here. I wouldnt expect that to happen. A simple description update would eliminate all the confusion. Would be even less work than the "Advantage" buff touch-up which have happened several months ago.

    if the target cannot assist, they are not a valid target to assist. that is not a bug, that is the correct action.

    not at all, because the blockage comes from the debuff, not the ability. "if daze, not valid target", if the ability has a cleanse, then it would not have this restriction.

    if an ability that calls an assist allows you to select a dazed target, and the ability does not have a cleanse then it is a bug and should be reported as such.
  • Okay i am glad that we agree on the fact that Hera is not WAI. Now i only wish we could agree on that there SHOULD be further investigation when it comes to assisting, bc currently in a way, daze is capable of preventing buffs, like stealth or crt dmg up, whereas it only should prevent assists, counterattacks, and TM gain. Imo this is not what it should be even if it is wai.

    Or. Update the description.
  • Kyno
    25202 posts Moderator
    edited August 6
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Okay i am glad that we agree on the fact that Hera is not WAI. Now i only wish we could agree on that there SHOULD be further investigation when it comes to assisting, bc currently in a way, daze is capable of preventing buffs, like stealth or crt dmg up, whereas it only should prevent assists, counterattacks, and TM gain. Imo this is not what it should be even if it is wai.

    Or. Update the description.

    feel free to report that as a separate issue if you wish, but it makes perfect sense that you cannot select a target that will not assist. the buffs or bonuses are extras, to build up the assisting attacker.
  • TVF
    25163 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »

    Daze does not allow youFinalizer to select that unit for an ability that has an assist, therefore a dazed UKR is not a valid target for the basic.

    Do you have a source for that claim, Kyno?

    I can quote you the literal ingame description for Daze:
    "Can't assist, counter attack, or gain bonus Turn Meter."

    This does not say a word about being valid or invalid target for certain abilities. If daze really prevents this type of abilities (which semmingly is the case) then it is a bug, or the description needs an update. When it comes to the Finalizer it has minor impact, but the Ghost's Static Jammer ability is somewhat crippled by this phenomenon.

    Also, coding a criterium that modifies the list of valid targets based on the ability level seems to be rather difficult to me (I am talking about Play to Strengths). Not impossible but rather difficult, given the record we have here. I wouldnt expect that to happen. A simple description update would eliminate all the confusion. Would be even less work than the "Advantage" buff touch-up which have happened several months ago.

    if the target cannot assist, they are not a valid target to assist. that is not a bug, that is the correct action.

    not at all, because the blockage comes from the debuff, not the ability. "if daze, not valid target", if the ability has a cleanse, then it would not have this restriction.

    if an ability that calls an assist allows you to select a dazed target, and the ability does not have a cleanse then it is a bug and should be reported as such.

    If an ability has two components, let's say grant advantage and call to assist, shouldn't you be able to target someone with daze so they can have the advantage part?

    I understand it isn't doing it this way, but I don't see why it shouldn't. Daze shouldn't block targeting, it should just block assisting.
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  • Kyno
    25202 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »

    Daze does not allow youFinalizer to select that unit for an ability that has an assist, therefore a dazed UKR is not a valid target for the basic.

    Do you have a source for that claim, Kyno?

    I can quote you the literal ingame description for Daze:
    "Can't assist, counter attack, or gain bonus Turn Meter."

    This does not say a word about being valid or invalid target for certain abilities. If daze really prevents this type of abilities (which semmingly is the case) then it is a bug, or the description needs an update. When it comes to the Finalizer it has minor impact, but the Ghost's Static Jammer ability is somewhat crippled by this phenomenon.

    Also, coding a criterium that modifies the list of valid targets based on the ability level seems to be rather difficult to me (I am talking about Play to Strengths). Not impossible but rather difficult, given the record we have here. I wouldnt expect that to happen. A simple description update would eliminate all the confusion. Would be even less work than the "Advantage" buff touch-up which have happened several months ago.

    if the target cannot assist, they are not a valid target to assist. that is not a bug, that is the correct action.

    not at all, because the blockage comes from the debuff, not the ability. "if daze, not valid target", if the ability has a cleanse, then it would not have this restriction.

    if an ability that calls an assist allows you to select a dazed target, and the ability does not have a cleanse then it is a bug and should be reported as such.

    If an ability has two components, let's say grant advantage and call to assist, shouldn't you be able to target someone with daze so they can have the advantage part?

    I understand it isn't doing it this way, but I don't see why it shouldn't. Daze shouldn't block targeting, it should just block assisting.
    Kyno wrote: »
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Okay i am glad that we agree on the fact that Hera is not WAI. Now i only wish we could agree on that there SHOULD be further investigation when it comes to assisting, bc currently in a way, daze is capable of preventing buffs, like stealth or crt dmg up, whereas it only should prevent assists, counterattacks, and TM gain. Imo this is not what it should be even if it is wai.

    Or. Update the description.

    ... the buffs or bonuses are extras, to build up the assisting attacker.

  • TVF
    25163 posts Member
    That's your interpretation.
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  • TVF
    25163 posts Member
    Especially if the buff does not go away after the assist.
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  • Kyno
    25202 posts Moderator
    edited August 6
    TVF wrote: »
    That's your interpretation.

    that is anecdotal :wink:
  • TVF wrote: »



    If an ability has two components, let's say grant advantage and call to assist, shouldn't you be able to target someone with daze so they can have the advantage part?

    I understand it isn't doing it this way, but I don't see why it shouldn't. Daze shouldn't block targeting, it should just block assisting.

    Finally someone who speaks Galactic Basic
  • TVF
    25163 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    That's your interpretation.

    that is anecdotal

    I'm not laughing.

    Explain Bastila to me.
    Rally 4 turn cooldown
    Bastila dispels all debuffs from herself and another target ally. They both gain Offense, Defense, Speed, Accuracy, and Critical Chance Up for 3 turns, then Bastila calls that ally to assist.

    First of all, the buffs last 3 turns, why shouldn't you be able to grant them to anyone, since they last way beyond the assist.

    And more importantly, two of the buffs are defense and speed up, which are both 100% irrelevant for an assist. Why shouldn't you be able to grant those to anyone?
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  • TVF wrote: »
    speed up, which are both 100% irrelevant for an assist.

    Well it is rather 99,6% if you consider droideka...
  • Kyno
    25202 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    That's your interpretation.

    that is anecdotal

    I'm not laughing.

    Explain Bastila to me.
    Rally 4 turn cooldown
    Bastila dispels all debuffs from herself and another target ally. They both gain Offense, Defense, Speed, Accuracy, and Critical Chance Up for 3 turns, then Bastila calls that ally to assist.

    First of all, the buffs last 3 turns, why shouldn't you be able to grant them to anyone, since they last way beyond the assist.

    And more importantly, two of the buffs are defense and speed up, which are both 100% irrelevant for an assist. Why shouldn't you be able to grant those to anyone?
    Kyno wrote: »
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Okay i am glad that we agree on the fact that Hera is not WAI. Now i only wish we could agree on that there SHOULD be further investigation when it comes to assisting, bc currently in a way, daze is capable of preventing buffs, like stealth or crt dmg up, whereas it only should prevent assists, counterattacks, and TM gain. Imo this is not what it should be even if it is wai.

    Or. Update the description.

    ... the buffs or bonuses are extras, to build up the assisting attacker.

    Did i say it was only to build them up for the attack?

    it is a bonus to build up the assisting attacker, there are many reasons to do that, its a "thank you" for the assist, sometimes on the front end (attack buffs) sometimes on the back end (defense or healing....ext)

    those are there for the assist, not just because. Thats what makes it a different ability than just a buff ability.

    by blocking them from assisting they cannot get the "thank you" since they cannot offer the assist.
  • This is a very twisted, unfounded philosophy of thin air. This game is not about being grateful. Stop enforcing this wishful thinking.
  • TVF
    25163 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    That's your interpretation.

    that is anecdotal

    I'm not laughing.

    Explain Bastila to me.
    Rally 4 turn cooldown
    Bastila dispels all debuffs from herself and another target ally. They both gain Offense, Defense, Speed, Accuracy, and Critical Chance Up for 3 turns, then Bastila calls that ally to assist.

    First of all, the buffs last 3 turns, why shouldn't you be able to grant them to anyone, since they last way beyond the assist.

    And more importantly, two of the buffs are defense and speed up, which are both 100% irrelevant for an assist. Why shouldn't you be able to grant those to anyone?
    Kyno wrote: »
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    Okay i am glad that we agree on the fact that Hera is not WAI. Now i only wish we could agree on that there SHOULD be further investigation when it comes to assisting, bc currently in a way, daze is capable of preventing buffs, like stealth or crt dmg up, whereas it only should prevent assists, counterattacks, and TM gain. Imo this is not what it should be even if it is wai.

    Or. Update the description.

    ... the buffs or bonuses are extras, to build up the assisting attacker.

    Did i say it was only to build them up for the attack?

    it is a bonus to build up the assisting attacker, there are many reasons to do that, its a "thank you" for the assist, sometimes on the front end (attack buffs) sometimes on the back end (defense or healing....ext)

    those are there for the assist, not just because. Thats what makes it a different ability than just a buff ability.

    by blocking them from assisting they cannot get the "thank you" since they cannot offer the assist.

    Interesting interpretation, one I disagree with. Ok.
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  • Gifafi
    4924 posts Member
    Kyno, have you been told it's a "thank you?" or is that just your interpretation? I mean, it makes sense sorta, but just wondering. I think it's fine as is, if it cleanses then can target, if not then no, but it could work either way and be fine. I'm sure there are times when you would want the buffs and not the assist (on a non-cleansing one)

    if jolee can use his call to assist on a dazed char I think that would be an exception bc it's also a group heal, no?
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • Kyno
    25202 posts Moderator
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Kyno, have you been told it's a "thank you?" or is that just your interpretation? I mean, it makes sense sorta, but just wondering. I think it's fine as is, if it cleanses then can target, if not then no, but it could work either way and be fine. I'm sure there are times when you would want the buffs and not the assist (on a non-cleansing one)

    if jolee can use his call to assist on a dazed char I think that would be an exception bc it's also a group heal, no?

    I used the term "thank you" for lack of a better way to say it. there are multiple parts of abilities like this, but the basics are founded on the "normal types" (see the quotations, that means its not exactly that, but just a way to express the idea). assists, buffs, debuffs, attacks....ext. as kits get more complicated it always going to be a which came first the chicken or the egg type thing when looking at these abilities.

    assisting attacks offer other additional benefits. but its still an assisting attack. if they can't assist, then why should they get the additional benefits? if the ability was based on granting the additional benefits, and had an assist as the bonus, then sure..... but its all about interpretation and the procedure set up in the game. the precedent and "normal" we have seen from the beginning, is that if you are dazed you cannot be selected for an assisting attack. Could they change this or make certain abilities operate in a different order, sure, its not a hard rule, but that's not how they set this up.

    its always great to want an ability to do more than it does, but there is also the "natural rules" set by the game and sometimes that order of operation is just that way, because it is.

    its all about what the intent is for the ability. if the intent is an assist, then anything else is a bonus. if the intent is a heal and the assist is a bonus, cool.

    sure we can all want it changed, but it doesnt' make it not WAI or a bug.
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