Daze Vs Complex abilities

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Replies

  • TVF
    25564 posts Member
    Why are you saying the assist is the intent and that "anything else is a bonus"? Again, that's your interpretation.

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  • Kyno
    25771 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Why are you saying the assist is the intent and that "anything else is a bonus"? Again, that's your interpretation.

    based on precedent. again, those are the "natural rules" of the game we have seen from the beginning. if you were dazed you could not be selected for the ability that calls an assist (no matter any other benefits, unless it was cleanse), this is the way it was in the beginning. as i said, if you want to change it now, sure go ahead and ask for it to be changed, but it would be a change from what we have seen for any ability that called an assist. this is what highlights that the primary action of the ability has been established as the assist.

    also during this conversation i brought this up with the team at Answers HQ and Hera is in fact a bug and has been flagged as such.
  • TVF
    25564 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Why are you saying the assist is the intent and that "anything else is a bonus"? Again, that's your interpretation.

    based on precedent. again, those are the "natural rules" of the game we have seen from the beginning. if you were dazed you could not be selected for the ability that calls an assist (no matter any other benefits, unless it was cleanse), this is the way it was in the beginning. as i said, if you want to change it now, sure go ahead and ask for it to be changed, but it would be a change from what we have seen for any ability that called an assist. this is what highlights that the primary action of the ability has been established as the assist.

    I don't remember for sure, but I seem to remember that I have in the past been able to target someone who is blocked from the benefit on a different ability, like wasting a heal on someone with healing immunity, or a buff on someone with buff immunity. Which would be inconsistent with the "natural rules" of the game you are indicating are in place.

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  • Kyno
    25771 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Why are you saying the assist is the intent and that "anything else is a bonus"? Again, that's your interpretation.

    based on precedent. again, those are the "natural rules" of the game we have seen from the beginning. if you were dazed you could not be selected for the ability that calls an assist (no matter any other benefits, unless it was cleanse), this is the way it was in the beginning. as i said, if you want to change it now, sure go ahead and ask for it to be changed, but it would be a change from what we have seen for any ability that called an assist. this is what highlights that the primary action of the ability has been established as the assist.

    I don't remember for sure, but I seem to remember that I have in the past been able to target someone who is blocked from the benefit on a different ability, like wasting a heal on someone with healing immunity, or a buff on someone with buff immunity. Which would be inconsistent with the "natural rules" of the game you are indicating are in place.

    you do realize that I am not saying that this is a blanket rule for everything. the "natural rules" of the game have many facets and yes they can be different for different things, in different situations. Its amazing how things work some times, and they are quite often not the same.

    the precedent for HI and BI are as you are describing, if suddenly it worked differently that would go against the current understanding we have of the "natural rules". this is all similar to how potency/tenacity play together. its just how it was established in this game. as i said, you want to ask for it to be changed, great, change is good, but it is a change from what we currently see and have seen in the past.
  • TVF
    25564 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Why are you saying the assist is the intent and that "anything else is a bonus"? Again, that's your interpretation.

    based on precedent. again, those are the "natural rules" of the game we have seen from the beginning. if you were dazed you could not be selected for the ability that calls an assist (no matter any other benefits, unless it was cleanse), this is the way it was in the beginning. as i said, if you want to change it now, sure go ahead and ask for it to be changed, but it would be a change from what we have seen for any ability that called an assist. this is what highlights that the primary action of the ability has been established as the assist.

    I don't remember for sure, but I seem to remember that I have in the past been able to target someone who is blocked from the benefit on a different ability, like wasting a heal on someone with healing immunity, or a buff on someone with buff immunity. Which would be inconsistent with the "natural rules" of the game you are indicating are in place.

    you do realize that I am not saying that this is a blanket rule for everything. the "natural rules" of the game have many facets and yes they can be different for different things, in different situations. Its amazing how things work some times, and they are quite often not the same.

    the precedent for HI and BI are as you are describing, if suddenly it worked differently that would go against the current understanding we have of the "natural rules". this is all similar to how potency/tenacity play together. its just how it was established in this game. as i said, you want to ask for it to be changed, great, change is good, but it is a change from what we currently see and have seen in the past.

    Ok yeah, I guess I'm just asking for consistency then. I'm not arguing it doesn't happen or that it's a bug, I'm arguing that it doesn't make sense. If you can target someone with a heal who has heal block, you should be able to target someone with an assist who has daze. Seems logical to me, shrug.
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  • Kyno
    25771 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Why are you saying the assist is the intent and that "anything else is a bonus"? Again, that's your interpretation.

    based on precedent. again, those are the "natural rules" of the game we have seen from the beginning. if you were dazed you could not be selected for the ability that calls an assist (no matter any other benefits, unless it was cleanse), this is the way it was in the beginning. as i said, if you want to change it now, sure go ahead and ask for it to be changed, but it would be a change from what we have seen for any ability that called an assist. this is what highlights that the primary action of the ability has been established as the assist.

    I don't remember for sure, but I seem to remember that I have in the past been able to target someone who is blocked from the benefit on a different ability, like wasting a heal on someone with healing immunity, or a buff on someone with buff immunity. Which would be inconsistent with the "natural rules" of the game you are indicating are in place.

    you do realize that I am not saying that this is a blanket rule for everything. the "natural rules" of the game have many facets and yes they can be different for different things, in different situations. Its amazing how things work some times, and they are quite often not the same.

    the precedent for HI and BI are as you are describing, if suddenly it worked differently that would go against the current understanding we have of the "natural rules". this is all similar to how potency/tenacity play together. its just how it was established in this game. as i said, you want to ask for it to be changed, great, change is good, but it is a change from what we currently see and have seen in the past.

    Ok yeah, I guess I'm just asking for consistency then. I'm not arguing it doesn't happen or that it's a bug, I'm arguing that it doesn't make sense. If you can target someone with a heal who has heal block, you should be able to target someone with an assist who has daze. Seems logical to me, shrug.

    absolutely, it is logical, just like saying daze should only prevent the assist is logical. but that doesn't mean thats how the game needs to be.

    abilities dealing with daze should all be the same
    abilities dealing with HI should be the same
    abilities dealing with BI should be the same
    abilities dealing with shock should be the same
    ...ext...

    consistency between them would be fine, but doesn't' seem to be necessary as long as each "class" is handled consistently.

    i'm not saying things couldn't be changed or shouldn't be changed, just that we do have some precedents set from the beginning or introduction of each element and that deeper level of understanding is what helps some players take full advantage of whats going on and adds to the strategy of the world we play in.
  • BenQuadinaros
    60 posts Member
    edited August 6
    Could these interactions be similar to the ole “is the ability considered an attack” question? For example, Hera’s might not be considered an attack so she can target a dazed ally, whereas Ghost’s ability is, and therefore cannot target a dazed ally. I remember a long time ago that mattered but I don’t remember why or what the situation was that bore the question.
  • When "thank you" doesnt work.....

    Slk and padme can hard stun a target. Bastila absolutely can target those units despite being under the effect of the undispellable stun.

    Even though they are unable to offer their assist, and are not worthy to lift the Mjolnir or to receive any build up as per Kyno, they are absolutely receiving all the rally buffs.

    Probably Bastila knows another sentence... "For the effort" or something.... Smh
  • Kyno
    25771 posts Moderator
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    When "thank you" doesnt work.....

    Slk and padme can hard stun a target. Bastila absolutely can target those units despite being under the effect of the undispellable stun.

    Even though they are unable to offer their assist, and are not worthy to lift the Mjolnir or to receive any build up as per Kyno, they are absolutely receiving all the rally buffs.

    Probably Bastila knows another sentence... "For the effort" or something.... Smh

    so you are saying stun works differently than daze....... I can edit my above post to include that in the list of things that are consistent within "the class" but different than other debuffs, but i thought that would naturally fall under the ...ext... remark.
  • No i am saying your philosophy is flawed about the grateful characters and i am being modest here as i really think this is an understatement.
  • Also, stating that the "Lay waste" ability is an assist call as primary action is something i cannot really consider to be a serious statement. I am pretty sure that having 3 dazed FO Ship on field will not prevent you from using the capital ship's basic ability.
  • So if tvf and the others have it their way does that mean that the AI will be wasting assist/buff moves on dazed allies .

    Yes you can do stupid things like try and buff a toon with buff immunity but I wouldn't .
    I understand the beef with certain assist moves like bastilla which has a 3turn buff and wanting to select a dazed toon , it's a shame that we don't have a cleanse or some sort of tenacity up buff to prevent daze.

    I think kyno is on to something if the assist is the main part of the ability like Jolee then I understand not being able to target a dazed ally . But if the assist is the bonus on the tail end of the move then I think you should be able to give the buffs out without the assist .

    But the above would make it confusing and start arguments around wether the assist is the main part of the ability or not . As it currently is unless the assist had a cleanse attached to it you can't target dazed allies which is consistent with daze across the board
  • TVF
    25564 posts Member
    Treeburner wrote: »
    So if tvf and the others have it their way does that mean that the AI will be wasting assist/buff moves on dazed allies

    The AI already wastes moves in a similar manner so I don't see what the problem is to add one more to the list.
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  • Kyno
    25771 posts Moderator
    SerWulfgar wrote: »
    No i am saying your philosophy is flawed about the grateful characters and i am being modest here as i really think this is an understatement.

    yes but as I explained in another post, it was just a phrase to express the idea and not " this is exactly whats happening" statement.
  • I swear back when Carrie was around, this argument came up. Something about the character attacked being affected differently if the ability used during the turn was considered an attack or not. Like how BB8’s ID is an attack even though it doesn’t cause damage or call an assist. I think there was discussion about how some characters with similar abilities interacted differently with the attacked toon differently.

    It may have been associated with landing certain debuffs, but I swear it had something to do with what the original ability was considered. And if that is part of the design of a toon, then abilities with assists might be considered as attacks (and therefore unable to be used on allies with daze) unless they specifically benefit game design to allow the ability (like finalizer). That would explain inconsistency. But IMO still doesn’t make logical sense.

  • abilities with assists might be considered as attacks (and therefore unable to be used on allies with daze) unless they specifically benefit game design to allow the ability (like finalizer). That would explain inconsistency. But IMO still doesn’t make logical sense.

    Please allow me to raise here AA's leader ability to counter your argument (even though it was not exactly your argument just trying to cite something from the past):

    Whenever an ally uses an ability that isnt an attack, a rebel ally gets called to assist.

    Cast "Watch and learn" by Ezra on Hyoda under AA-L. You will get a double assist. Or triple, if you consider Ezra's strike to be an assist.

    Cast Translation by 3PO on hermit yoda, you will get double assist. These abilities are not considered to be an attack by AA despite the fact that they do contain an assist. (TBH i am not even sure this is WAI if 3PO has the zeta on OMG, as the basic ability is considered an attack bc it is inflicting confuse on enemy target. With the zeta on OMG one could argue that this ability is now an attack. I dunno, this game is really not consistent)

    Cast "Master's Training" on anyone under AA-L, you will get all the Trained units to assist +1 from the leadership.

    I am fully aware that this is not exactly what you have been talking about, all i am saying here that the inconsistency is real here. I still think that a description update would solve everything.

    1) Update the Daze description so it contains something about being invalid target for certain abilities.

    or

    2) change the phrase "target ally" to "target Assistant" in the kits. This way it would support Kyno's claim: the unit still is a freaking ally so it should recieve everything that was promised, however target assistant is non existing if target ally does not classify as assistant due to Daze and gets nothing but a tap on the shoulder. (However it still does not reslove the contradiction with the hard stun effects)

    Updating texts would require little to no coding and everyone could be happy.
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