Bossk is why we hate ships.

Replies

  • ZAP wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »

    Oh cool, I get to out and own 3 of you now.

    I have provided data and an explanation of why I think that data is relevant.

    You, 3 stooges have provided exactly nothing, knuck knuck, woohoo woohoo, pow!

    Look guys/gals, whatever, you’ve provided zero data or even an explanation of why you think HT is not OP. You could at least try and submit something?
    TVF wrote: »
    You are arguing meta, not OP
    TVF wrote: »
    you are still talking meta and not OP.
    TVF wrote: »
    There is data that HT is meta.

    There is no data showing HT is OP.
    CCyrilS wrote: »
    You've still provided 0 data, other than your opinion, that HT is OP.
    ZAP wrote: »
    JKR is not considered OP anymore, especially when looking at data of top arena teams. He was OP at time of release, but his OPness has waned as other chars and teams are released.

    Or in other words, counters developed.
    ZAP wrote: »
    DR is not considered OP anymore, but malak still kind of is as evidenced by data of top arena teams.

    DR without Malak has never been OP, so it has only ever been Malak and isn't now. The rest wasn't particularly relevant, it was just you saying you felt HT was also OP because it was more plug and play. If you want to provide literally any validity, answer the points made and give a reason why meta is the same as OP to you.

    I felt I already answered that.

    Meta has only and always only lasted 6 months tops with specific teams around said “OP” character.

    HT has lasted 18 months surrounded by multiple meta teams as a plug and play character.

    Serious question, has anyone disputing this provided anything, even an explanation as to why they think HT is not OP?



    How long did toons like DN Thrawn and Rex hang around in various forms on Meta arena squads? What's the difference?
  • TVF
    31419 posts Member
    (checks thread)

    Yep, made the right call.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    (checks thread)

    Yep, made the right call.

    I have much to learn.
  • ZAP wrote: »

    Yep, you lost, as you have zero evidence or data to back up your “anecdotal feelings”
    ZAP wrote: »
    I felt I already answered that.

    On a separate note, nothing you said still explains why meta and OP are the same thing in your eyes, but out of sheer courtesy, meta and OP are not the same thing, as there is always a meta, not always based around an OP character. OP, or overpowered, means stronger than should be, which would imply no effective counter, hence it applied to Malak because they destroyed the counters people found to ensure he was OP. Meta means using the most effective tactic available to achieve your goal, which in arena battles would be the best team with fewest counters. HT is an effective choice to use if you have a slot free, but that in no way makes it a meta ship when it is so easily and often countered. Hence, it can be the most used ship in arena, so is meta, but is not OP as it makes no fleet unbeatable. Uses the definitions of the terms, the forums have left me too emotionally dead inside to decide things based on feelings. That wordy enough for you?
  • CCyrilS
    5536 posts Member
    ZAP wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »

    Yep, you lost, as you have zero evidence or data to back up your “anecdotal feelings”
    ZAP wrote: »
    I felt I already answered that.

    On a separate note, nothing you said still explains why meta and OP are the same thing in your eyes, but out of sheer courtesy, meta and OP are not the same thing, as there is always a meta, not always based around an OP character. OP, or overpowered, means stronger than should be, which would imply no effective counter, hence it applied to Malak because they destroyed the counters people found to ensure he was OP. Meta means using the most effective tactic available to achieve your goal, which in arena battles would be the best team with fewest counters. HT is an effective choice to use if you have a slot free, but that in no way makes it a meta ship when it is so easily and often countered. Hence, it can be the most used ship in arena, so is meta, but is not OP as it makes no fleet unbeatable. Uses the definitions of the terms, the forums have left me too emotionally dead inside to decide things based on feelings. That wordy enough for you?

    I certainly never said meta and OP are the same thing, where you got that is anyone’s guess but mine.

    You may actually think you know what meta means in terms of games, but what you have written shows you absolutely do not, you just go with what everyone has termed it to mean now, but that’s an entirely different discussion and a distinction I’m sure you wouldn’t grasp.

    I’ll concede to you though and bow to your infinite wisdom. HT is not OP, nor has any other char/ship ever been OP in this game.

    You win sir and the original poster of this thread is wrong and HT is average at best.

    Happy now?

    At least you had more to say than that TVF guy, who loves to one word snipe people and then recoil when anyone challenges his ridiculous comments.

    Your entire (failed) argument was based on the length of meta.
  • ZAP wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »

    Oh cool, I get to out and own 3 of you now.

    I have provided data and an explanation of why I think that data is relevant.

    You, 3 stooges have provided exactly nothing, knuck knuck, woohoo woohoo, pow!

    Look guys/gals, whatever, you’ve provided zero data or even an explanation of why you think HT is not OP. You could at least try and submit something?
    TVF wrote: »
    You are arguing meta, not OP
    TVF wrote: »
    you are still talking meta and not OP.
    TVF wrote: »
    There is data that HT is meta.

    There is no data showing HT is OP.
    CCyrilS wrote: »
    You've still provided 0 data, other than your opinion, that HT is OP.
    ZAP wrote: »
    JKR is not considered OP anymore, especially when looking at data of top arena teams. He was OP at time of release, but his OPness has waned as other chars and teams are released.

    Or in other words, counters developed.
    ZAP wrote: »
    DR is not considered OP anymore, but malak still kind of is as evidenced by data of top arena teams.

    DR without Malak has never been OP, so it has only ever been Malak and isn't now. The rest wasn't particularly relevant, it was just you saying you felt HT was also OP because it was more plug and play. If you want to provide literally any validity, answer the points made and give a reason why meta is the same as OP to you.

    I felt I already answered that.

    Meta has only and always only lasted 6 months tops with specific teams around said “OP” character.

    HT has lasted 18 months surrounded by multiple meta teams as a plug and play character.

    Serious question, has anyone disputing this provided anything, even an explanation as to why they think HT is not OP?



    I’m genuinely curious what you think. What data could be presented that would prove meta other than the data you presented yourself?
    Those charts show HT is widely used, which falls under the meta category. IMO, just being versatile doesn’t necessarily make a toon OP. Also, keep in mind, the pool of available ships is much smaller than the pool of characters. That also plays a role in HT’s longevity. In the last 18 months, how many new ships did we get?
    In my mind, to prove a toon is OP would require some type of win/loss percentage comparison of teams with and without HT. Do you have those numbers?
    I reject your reality and substitute my own.
  • CCyrilS
    5536 posts Member
    ZAP wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »

    Oh cool, I get to out and own 3 of you now.

    I have provided data and an explanation of why I think that data is relevant.

    You, 3 stooges have provided exactly nothing, knuck knuck, woohoo woohoo, pow!

    Look guys/gals, whatever, you’ve provided zero data or even an explanation of why you think HT is not OP. You could at least try and submit something?
    TVF wrote: »
    You are arguing meta, not OP
    TVF wrote: »
    you are still talking meta and not OP.
    TVF wrote: »
    There is data that HT is meta.

    There is no data showing HT is OP.
    CCyrilS wrote: »
    You've still provided 0 data, other than your opinion, that HT is OP.
    ZAP wrote: »
    JKR is not considered OP anymore, especially when looking at data of top arena teams. He was OP at time of release, but his OPness has waned as other chars and teams are released.

    Or in other words, counters developed.
    ZAP wrote: »
    DR is not considered OP anymore, but malak still kind of is as evidenced by data of top arena teams.

    DR without Malak has never been OP, so it has only ever been Malak and isn't now. The rest wasn't particularly relevant, it was just you saying you felt HT was also OP because it was more plug and play. If you want to provide literally any validity, answer the points made and give a reason why meta is the same as OP to you.

    I felt I already answered that.

    Meta has only and always only lasted 6 months tops with specific teams around said “OP” character.

    HT has lasted 18 months surrounded by multiple meta teams as a plug and play character.

    Serious question, has anyone disputing this provided anything, even an explanation as to why they think HT is not OP?



    I’m genuinely curious what you think. What data could be presented that would prove meta other than the data you presented yourself?
    Those charts show HT is widely used, which falls under the meta category. IMO, just being versatile doesn’t necessarily make a toon OP. Also, keep in mind, the pool of available ships is much smaller than the pool of characters. That also plays a role in HT’s longevity. In the last 18 months, how many new ships did we get?
    In my mind, to prove a toon is OP would require some type of win/loss percentage comparison of teams with and without HT. Do you have those numbers?

    Not only that, but an agreed upon standard by which to measure toons.

    Without that, "OP" can only ever be an opinion.
  • CCyrilS
    5536 posts Member
    ZAP wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »

    Oh cool, I get to out and own 3 of you now.

    I have provided data and an explanation of why I think that data is relevant.

    You, 3 stooges have provided exactly nothing, knuck knuck, woohoo woohoo, pow!

    Look guys/gals, whatever, you’ve provided zero data or even an explanation of why you think HT is not OP. You could at least try and submit something?
    TVF wrote: »
    You are arguing meta, not OP
    TVF wrote: »
    you are still talking meta and not OP.
    TVF wrote: »
    There is data that HT is meta.

    There is no data showing HT is OP.
    CCyrilS wrote: »
    You've still provided 0 data, other than your opinion, that HT is OP.
    ZAP wrote: »
    JKR is not considered OP anymore, especially when looking at data of top arena teams. He was OP at time of release, but his OPness has waned as other chars and teams are released.

    Or in other words, counters developed.
    ZAP wrote: »
    DR is not considered OP anymore, but malak still kind of is as evidenced by data of top arena teams.

    DR without Malak has never been OP, so it has only ever been Malak and isn't now. The rest wasn't particularly relevant, it was just you saying you felt HT was also OP because it was more plug and play. If you want to provide literally any validity, answer the points made and give a reason why meta is the same as OP to you.

    I felt I already answered that.

    Meta has only and always only lasted 6 months tops with specific teams around said “OP” character.

    HT has lasted 18 months surrounded by multiple meta teams as a plug and play character.

    Serious question, has anyone disputing this provided anything, even an explanation as to why they think HT is not OP?



    I’m genuinely curious what you think. What data could be presented that would prove meta other than the data you presented yourself?
    Those charts show HT is widely used, which falls under the meta category. IMO, just being versatile doesn’t necessarily make a toon OP. Also, keep in mind, the pool of available ships is much smaller than the pool of characters. That also plays a role in HT’s longevity. In the last 18 months, how many new ships did we get?
    In my mind, to prove a toon is OP would require some type of win/loss percentage comparison of teams with and without HT. Do you have those numbers?

    Nah, I’m done. HT is not or has never been OP, which means absolutely no char or ship has ever been OP.

    You guys win, HT is not OP

    Can we at least agree that if HT is not or has never been OP, then no char or ship in the game has ever been OP? I’m willing to concede that point, are you?

    I think CLS was OP for a while
  • ZAP wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »

    Oh cool, I get to out and own 3 of you now.

    I have provided data and an explanation of why I think that data is relevant.

    You, 3 stooges have provided exactly nothing, knuck knuck, woohoo woohoo, pow!

    Look guys/gals, whatever, you’ve provided zero data or even an explanation of why you think HT is not OP. You could at least try and submit something?
    TVF wrote: »
    You are arguing meta, not OP
    TVF wrote: »
    you are still talking meta and not OP.
    TVF wrote: »
    There is data that HT is meta.

    There is no data showing HT is OP.
    CCyrilS wrote: »
    You've still provided 0 data, other than your opinion, that HT is OP.
    ZAP wrote: »
    JKR is not considered OP anymore, especially when looking at data of top arena teams. He was OP at time of release, but his OPness has waned as other chars and teams are released.

    Or in other words, counters developed.
    ZAP wrote: »
    DR is not considered OP anymore, but malak still kind of is as evidenced by data of top arena teams.

    DR without Malak has never been OP, so it has only ever been Malak and isn't now. The rest wasn't particularly relevant, it was just you saying you felt HT was also OP because it was more plug and play. If you want to provide literally any validity, answer the points made and give a reason why meta is the same as OP to you.

    I felt I already answered that.

    Meta has only and always only lasted 6 months tops with specific teams around said “OP” character.

    HT has lasted 18 months surrounded by multiple meta teams as a plug and play character.

    Serious question, has anyone disputing this provided anything, even an explanation as to why they think HT is not OP?



    I’m genuinely curious what you think. What data could be presented that would prove meta other than the data you presented yourself?
    Those charts show HT is widely used, which falls under the meta category. IMO, just being versatile doesn’t necessarily make a toon OP. Also, keep in mind, the pool of available ships is much smaller than the pool of characters. That also plays a role in HT’s longevity. In the last 18 months, how many new ships did we get?
    In my mind, to prove a toon is OP would require some type of win/loss percentage comparison of teams with and without HT. Do you have those numbers?

    Nah, I’m done. HT is not or has never been OP, which means absolutely no char or ship has ever been OP.

    You guys win, HT is not OP

    Can we at least agree that if HT is not or has never been OP, then no char or ship in the game has ever been OP? I’m willing to concede that point, are you?

    I honestly wasn’t trying to pile on, I wasn’t even involved in your discussion until now. I just presented a question I’m genuinely curious about regarding data.
    But to answer your question, yes I believe this game has had OP characters.
    I reject your reality and substitute my own.
  • thecarterologist958
    1052 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    ZAP wrote: »
    I certainly never said meta and OP are the same thing, where you got that is anyone’s guess but mine.

    You may actually think you know what meta means in terms of games, but what you have written shows you absolutely do not, you just go with what everyone has termed it to mean now, but that’s an entirely different discussion and a distinction I’m sure you wouldn’t grasp.

    I’ll concede to you though and bow to your infinite wisdom. HT is not OP, nor has any other char/ship ever been OP in this game.

    You win sir and the original poster of this thread is wrong and HT is average at best.

    Happy now?

    At least you had more to say than that TVF guy, who loves to one word snipe people and then recoil when anyone challenges his ridiculous comments.

    Google it if you don't believe me, though beyond that advice I don't care what you think, look foolish if you want. So what you are saying is you are making a baseless claim and then recoiling as soon as someone challenges your ridiculous comments? Ok.
    ZAP wrote: »
    Oh and side question for you carterolgist958, how ya doing vs that HT in LSgeoTB? Not OP enough for ya I suppose?

    Never lost to it, based on the forums' logic, that means it needs to be buffed if anything.
    ZAP wrote: »
    Can we at least agree that if HT is not or has never been OP, then no char or ship in the game has ever been OP? I’m willing to concede that point, are you?

    Until then the opposite of that statement was literally the only thing we had agreed on I think...
  • ZAP wrote: »

    It’s funny, I watched a video last night of an interview of a person and the interviewer asked if they could ever disagree without insults and just have differing opinions. The interviewee basically said no way Jose, which is what you’re saying to me.

    I never made a baseless claim, just followed up on baseless claims by people who tried to make the OP look foolish. None of them provided any data whatsoever to back up their claim that HT is not OP, that’s what I call “baseless claims”, obv you don’t.

    I provided data that I feel supports my claim, but am willing to concede that the data means something different to you and others, aka “meta”, not “OP”.

    Definitions are by definition defined, it isn't a matter of opinion, but you already knew that, nice story though. You never have to prove that something is not true, there is no reason to believe it without evidence being provided as with the drop rates you have brought up, something you have failed to do based on the definitions of the words you have used.
    ZAP wrote: »

    Ridicule me all you want, but at least I have made coherent arguments as to why I agreed with OP and felt compelled to stand up against one word “denied” responses like TVF always gives.

    But we live in a catchy sound bite world now and most people identify with those one word degrading, sarcastic responses to people.

    Disagree.
    ZAP wrote: »

    And for clarities sake, I fight and beat HTs at least 5x a day in fleet, so my views on this matter have nothing to do with my personal anecdotal opinions, was just looking at the best overall data I could find that wasn’t anecdotal feely opinions.

    But hey, you win the internet and I’m a complete **** who doesn’t know anything, good for you.

    Yet when people questioned the validity of that data, you insulted them and claimed you "felt" otherwise, only to completely cave and refuse to provide any answers once people elaborated and asked you questions you presumably didn't have answers for.

    If you wish for a more polite and reasoned discussion, this is perhaps not the best initial response.
    ZAP wrote: »
    Oh cool, I get to out and own 3 of you now.

  • ZAP wrote: »
    Prove your point with data or not, isn’t that what you require of me? Otherwise it’s just opinions on either side and my data shows your side is dead wrong. I’m done arguing with you, as you’re incapable of providing any data for your argument vs mine: you’ll win though, cause you’re the best!

    I have, I've provided definitions that show you're wrong, invalidating your data and meaning you need to provide more. I've also told you that it is impossible to prove that something is not true unless there is evidence that it is, which you have yet to provide. Plus you haven't started arguing with me, you've just whinged when someone has suggested you're wrong, you need to actually read what people write and counter it before you can be "done arguing".
    ZAP wrote: »
    And that was not my initial response liar, that was after hours of dealing with you and your ilk

    Again, it was your first words after I posted, if you don't believe me, look for yourself, or prematurely insult me again and become more of a laughing stock, I seem to be enjoying this conversation rather more than you.
  • HT is not OP it is just a good tank that can take enough hits so that your offensive reinforcements can get in before it’s taken down. It doesn’t do any real damage it just buys us time to make strategic moves. It is definitely killable and I can knock out any HT one hit once reinforcements are in.
  • Dk_rek
    3299 posts Member
    Maxxed hyena bomber is Glorious
  • Tazzz
    62 posts Member
    edited March 2020
    ZAP wrote: »

    Maybe when BLT becomes farmable or more people get hyena bomber maxed, that will change, but until then, just because you “feel” HT is not OP, doesn’t change the fact that most “feel” otherwise.

    I’ll take the data over your feelings any day of the week and when you’re defending CG or your own point of view you do too.



    So... wait. You deny his feelings that HT is not OP, but accept that "most" "feel" it is? Seems... ignorant?
  • TVF
    31419 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    I see Bossk in every fleet line-up in my shard.

    It’s undeniably overpowered.

    Denied.

    You’re anecdotal denial is denied by actual data.

    According to swgoh.gg HT is used in 72% of rank 1 fleets.

    85% of top 10 fleets use HT



    I was referring to the "undeniably overpowered" part.

    Well I’d say if he’s used by so many rank 1 and top 10 fleets, more so than any other ship, he might just be OP, no?

    HT ranks higher than any other ship in top ranks. He also ranks higher than any other character in top of squad arena, including malak and sky guy.

    If any character or ship is considered OP, the data shows that HT is the top of the list, based on data, period.

    When people say overpowered they mean it's too strong for the good of the game. HT is nowhere near that point anymore, if it ever was.

    You are arguing meta, not OP. HT is the most effective tactic available, or at least that's how people perceive it so they're still using it via muscle memory. But it's definitely not overpowered anymore, because it's easily beatable.

    Still relevant.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Tazzz
    62 posts Member
    ZAP wrote: »
    Tazzz wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »

    Maybe when BLT becomes farmable or more people get hyena bomber maxed, that will change, but until then, just because you “feel” HT is not OP, doesn’t change the fact that most “feel” otherwise.

    I’ll take the data over your feelings any day of the week and when you’re defending CG or your own point of view you do too.



    So... wait. You deny his feelings that HT is not OP, but accept that "most" "feel" it is? Seems... ignorant?

    This is necro and kind of pointless

    I agree though, me feeling that the data supports HT being OP definitely doesn’t negate TVFs or anyone’s feelings that the data does not support that.

    I'm frequently late to the party, and those close to me know I love my dead things. But what's "relevant" is that this whole conversation has become purely subjective, and I hold no real stake in this - I don't have HT maxed, and hate fighting it- because I never focused on ships- and that's my fault. I just really wanted to point out the redundancy in your statement.
  • ZAP wrote: »
    Tazzz wrote: »
    ZAP wrote: »

    Maybe when BLT becomes farmable or more people get hyena bomber maxed, that will change, but until then, just because you “feel” HT is not OP, doesn’t change the fact that most “feel” otherwise.

    I’ll take the data over your feelings any day of the week and when you’re defending CG or your own point of view you do too.



    So... wait. You deny his feelings that HT is not OP, but accept that "most" "feel" it is? Seems... ignorant?

    This is necro and kind of pointless

    I agree though, me feeling that the data supports HT being OP definitely doesn’t negate TVFs or anyone’s feelings that the data does not support that.

    Feelings and interpreting data are two different things, I feel like that has always been the issue here.
  • TVF
    31419 posts Member
    I will say that in my Mal fleet, it's still very useful to survive the Neg ult, so maybe the "using due to muscle memory" thing is unfair. And actually now that I think of it, everyone in my shard is still using it with Neg, and from what I've seen of Y-wing, it's because Y-wing is not good.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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