Higher GP guilds sit out members to reduce their matchmaking GP, they get matched with a lesser GP guild, and have an easier time winning because of the average higher GP per player.
That last bit is highly debatable.
It's due to the "team per zone" scaling to half the least number of participant from ither guild :
If one guild has 42/50 and the other 48/50 there will be only 21 team to put per zone.
In higer end GP guild the rosters are so vasts that this is an advantage
I don't think the advantage has to do with number of signups. If anything, I'd say the advantage would be based on zetas and mods (older accounts would likely have more zetas, and if the account is newer, they've likely spent money to gear up quickly. Either scenario gives a higher likelihood for better mod development over smaller accounts).
Sandbagging is a thing. 2or3 sitting out is nothing but normal play. If a guild drops somewhere in the range of 10 players or more it is likely sandbagging. In lower reward tiers it seemed prevalent; I can’t say that I’ve seen it much at all in the highest tier
So you're blowing a hole wide open in your argument. The tier where participation and full guilds may not be commonplace is where the numbers chan ge... Huh..? You think it could be where the more casual guilds reside...? My guild had 32 sign up out of 47. WE ARE NOT SANDBAGGING. It simply is not required to join and some wars are like this where we have 32-35 and others we have 45+ I promise you no one is asked to sit out because that is just dumb.
everyone is doing sandbagging. even my guild because we are pressured to do due to other guilds doing it... evil circle. not a single enemy joined with full numbers for months now
we used to get opponents who join with fewer members to match our gp, but they have much stronger roster and steamrolled us, so we have to reduce our numbers too to lessen this probability. funny enough we mostly get roughly similarly strong enemies.
If sandbagging is not helping your guild, why not just let everyone participate so they can get the rewards that will aid in their improvement?
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I said those are left out who don't want to join or those who performed quite bad or not at all, this is some sort of motivation and at the same time a bit sandbagging sadly (we don't join with full members) .
for example sometimes we joined with 48 members, other times with 46 members. if all 50 joins but some can't or doesn't want to participate we will be in disadvantage as other guilds join with fewer people on purpose and punch us.
so we recently started to take this into consideration :other guilds who sandbag and look after those who can't join or are just bad.
"usually some don't join on their accord+the worse performing people are left out so it is sustainable for now"
I see. In my mind, that’s not really sandbagging. Strategizing for maximizing strength isn’t necessarily sandbagging.
"Sandbagging" is a real thing, whether ticket mules sit out to lower GP, or just not the entire guild shows up, or you are still recruiting to fill roster spots. Higher GP guilds going in at under 50 can create an advantage. However, sometimes it doesn't matter if you get a matched against a guild that likes TW.
I can tell you from being in a competitive TW guild that is you have 50 people join, have a solid defensive plan and a solid offensive plan, sandbagging doesn't have that dramatic an effect. We have "punched" above our weight many times.
I can also tell that the times we went in short because of retirements and not being able to fill a guild before lock, they have been easy matchups for us, with some guils not clearing more than 1 or 2 zones.
In short, the impact of sandbagging is dependent on how much your guild values TW and focuses on it, imo.
Why are guilds “pressured” to “sandbag” In the higher ranges, the rewards are still good win or lose.
If my guild loses today we still get 2 zetas because of the range we’re in. If we win we get 3, but at least we are guaranteed 2! Everyone should have the opportunity to claim rewards if they want to. Guild participation isn’t just about the guild it’s about developing both you’re game and developing your guild.
They aren't, unless they think they are a super elite guild that will lose players/recruits because of TW losses.... But I don't think I've ever seen anyone say "we lost a member to a guild that was getting less stars in TB and doing raids less often but they win almost all their TWs".
This was talked about on one of the Youtubers....sooo many people in the chat admitted to doing it and admitted it helps them win.
We're getting sandbagged right now as we speak. Our avg of 3.8m GP vs 4.6m GP is absurd. Cleared our map in 10 hours as we barely broke through to ships. Happens so often to us, and we have a lot of talent.
Whether it happens intentionally or as a result of lack of participation is basically irrelevant to the problem. The matchmaking not taking average GP of the signed-up players into account is the problem, not whether people abuse it or not. Intentional or not, the impact is the same.
While it's not always the case, a higher average GP tends to indicate a better quality of the top of the roster. The higher quality of the top-end of the roster, combined with having the benefit of having to deploy less teams, absolutely provides an advantage. As a 140m guild, we've faced guilds with 40-50m more GP and only low 30s number of people signed up on their end. Every time it's happened, we have gotten completely blown out. Whether it's been intentional or circumstantial, those fights have so far been unwinnable for us in every scenario. It doesn't matter how many 80k squads you have if there's enough quality in their way, basically.
This seems like a relatively easy thing to fix in the matchmaking algorithm, and seems like it would only adversly affect the people that are intentionally trying to take advantage of this shortcoming. Unfortunately there does not seem to be any interest on the part of CG to really investigate and potentially address this.
We don’t require participation in tw, but we do require if you join that you are available early and often. If you can’t do that then you should sit out cause you only hurt the guild and get tagged 20x. We force no one to sit out but still only get sometimes as low as 35 signing up, usually average about 40. TW can get intense and some people just don’t want that in their game. The matchup can play a big role in who wins or loses but strategy and successful battles can overcome that.
- people who claim that ALL guilds going in with <50 members are doing it intentionally to game the system are wrong. For lots of guilds TW is optional, and people sit out of their own free choice. Mine included. That cannot be debated.
- Whilst I concede that there probably is an advantage for a guild with 44/50 signed up when they face a guild with 50/50 signed up, there is absolutely no guarantee that the guild going in with 44 will be matched with a smaller guild going in with 50. For all they know, they could be matched with an even bigger guild going in with 40.
The best solution for guilds complaining about constantly losing at TW is one of two options:
- stop forcing your low / non-contributors to sign up. You know who they are. All you’re doing by making these guys join TW is giving yourselves a mountain to climb.
- Git gud.
Higher GP guilds sit out members to reduce their matchmaking GP, they get matched with a lesser GP guild, and have an easier time winning because of the average higher GP per player.
Unless they get matched with a guild with less members then they are still disadvantaged then right... like if they have 40/50 but get matched vs a guild with 30/50 their sitting 10 out didnt help them because the other guild sat 20!!
P.s. easier time winning because higher GP is a false equivalency. More GP doesn't mean better teams... imagine a guild with 10m more GP... it could be all g8 toons which doesn't help them and is a disadvantage for them to have on their roster (but it helps in TB) or IT could be 10m gp of all R7 toons which will help them. So it depends on the roster makeup not the GP.
Most TW come down to a R7 team eating up 10+ enemy teams and holding an area so the better teams and guild with them win in the end. That's wai.
We're a 241M gp guild, we're not slouches. We have like a 75% win rate at TW, we even (rarely) manage a win vs. one of these sandbagging guilds. But then there's matches like this last one that are so lopsided it's just stupid. This isn't fun. Fix your **** system already.
We're a 241M gp guild, we're not slouches. We have like a 75% win rate at TW, we even (rarely) manage a win vs. one of these sandbagging guilds. But then there's matches like this last one that are so lopsided it's just stupid. This isn't fun. Fix your **** system already.
Who forced you guys to put such weak defenses in TW?
This isnt a problem with the game it's a problem with what teams your setting on D.
This is compounded by the lack of coordination attacking like if your going south why would you clear the top front before clearing south and middle those extra teams used in top could have helped you push to back and clear 3 whole territories in middle and bottom instead of the one top front area. Yes you still would have lost but it would have been closer and if you set better defenses and stop the enemy you win.
When the enemy clears everything you set on d that's a sign you need to set better defenses. It's hard to win a war when all your defenses are killed. It's possible but very unlikely... most guilds who win at tw have remaining D standing at the end.
23 slots mean 45-46 members, you're blowing up over 5 people not participating. There is no way to prove it actually helps, there is so far only one person I know of who has confessed to it and they potentially don't know what it means, though if they actually do it I'd like to go to their discord and tell their weaker members to leave for their own good. But its based on the once again false assumption that everyone is doing it. Which they aren't.
You have no idea what you're talking about, and obviously didn't read what I wrote.
Your experience in a 50M gp guild have no applicability here in the big boy leagues.
50m gp lol. I'm in a 250m gp guild. We win 90% plus of TW.
Seems your having a rude awakening to the big boy leagues and lashing out at people trying to help you...
Keep setting Phoenix and bounty hunters on D bud. One day you will realize I'm right and your guilds defense is trash that's why u got full cleared. if not you can always post again and blame CG or another guild or belittle others telling them they 50m gp guild doesn't apply without knowing any facts... truth is you lost because your guilds own mistakes.
Before you attack me again for saying your guilds defenses were too weak... why dont you post screen shots of the defense you guys set to prove me wrong? Theres a novel idea fight with facts with evidence...
I wont hold my breath waiting for a screen shot of your Phoenix defenses dont worry lol.
We have 2 alt accounts in our guild that we use if someone leaves so we always keep earning arena tokens. We don’t use them in TW. I’m sure we are not the only ones
Higher GP guilds sit out members to reduce their matchmaking GP, they get matched with a lesser GP guild, and have an easier time winning because of the average higher GP per player.
Dunno, could people stop playing stupid and pretend they dont get the topic?
Let's take it to the extremes, and you will see it easier:
There is a guild of 120m gp. (I chose this number bc it is the threshold of 3 zeta which is a significant difference.)
They require 50 members to reach 120m, so they gladly all join (and btw they really should)
And then they are getting matched with a guild of 120m ACTIVE GP, only table is 13, meaning they are 25-26.
This "kinda" means (taking it to a personal level) that you, as a 2.4m GP are getting matched on GAC against a 4.8M GP player, but as a compensation you can duplicate your roster (cannot use the same character twice in a single fight).
Yeah-yeah i know GAC and TW are not exactly the same but i hope you get the concept. I dont think any sane person would claim that it is a fair fight for several reasons that have been mentioned before:
1) older account generally means better developed modpool.
2) higher GP means that it is more likely that they have key-characters unlocked that you dont have (GAS WITH Malak on 2.4m GP is possible but unlikely and definitely not common)
If you start reducing the difference between the average GP-s the obvious advantages start to diminish and one might argue if they are still significant at all. I personally think they are.
This summary is a little different when it comes to top of the lines guilds but the phenomenon is still existing.
Higher GP guilds sit out members to reduce their matchmaking GP, they get matched with a lesser GP guild, and have an easier time winning because of the average higher GP per player.
Which ones do this?
Like I said earlier in this thread I know of one guild called alpha. See IMG. they are a 290m gp guild that has an AVG of below 250m gp beated (we've had 2 tw)
I'm not saying all guilds do this but this one does. If you check back on my post earlier in this thread (11 February) you see me predicting their AVG gp beated is way below their own gp.
Dunno, could people stop playing stupid and pretend they dont get the topic?
Let's take it to the extremes, and you will see it easier:
There is a guild of 120m gp. (I chose this number bc it is the threshold of 3 zeta which is a significant difference.)
They require 50 members to reach 120m, so they gladly all join (and btw they really should)
And then they are getting matched with a guild of 120m ACTIVE GP, only table is 13, meaning they are 25-26.
This "kinda" means (taking it to a personal level) that you, as a 2.4m GP are getting matched on GAC against a 4.8M GP player, but as a compensation you can duplicate your roster (cannot use the same character twice in a single fight).
Yeah-yeah i know GAC and TW are not exactly the same but i hope you get the concept. I dont think any sane person would claim that it is a fair fight for several reasons that have been mentioned before:
1) older account generally means better developed modpool.
2) higher GP means that it is more likely that they have key-characters unlocked that you dont have (GAS WITH Malak on 2.4m GP is possible but unlikely and definitely not common)
If you start reducing the difference between the average GP-s the obvious advantages start to diminish and one might argue if they are still significant at all. I personally think they are.
This summary is a little different when it comes to top of the lines guilds but the phenomenon is still existing.
Before our guild went through a merger to increase active players, we were around the 25 mark every TW. Trust me, our win rate was worse. Having fewer people and more GP doesn't guarantee a win, of course I can't speak for the guilds we were against, but its pretty reasonable to say most of them will have had more participation than us. Guilds who assume they will lose before they've actually fought a TW probably will, because its a stupid attitude to go in with. Oh and to cover both sides of the coin, in our new much better guild, we come across opponents with 10-15 less players than us, doesn't have that much bearing on things. (Anecdotal)
Higher GP guilds sit out members to reduce their matchmaking GP, they get matched with a lesser GP guild, and have an easier time winning because of the average higher GP per player.
Which ones do this?
Like I said earlier in this thread I know of one guild called alpha. See IMG. they are a 290m gp guild that has an AVG of below 250m gp beated (we've had 2 tw)
I already read about that guild. However, @DarkstarSunrise insinuates that higher GP guilds in general do it. Hence my question.
Replies
I don't think the advantage has to do with number of signups. If anything, I'd say the advantage would be based on zetas and mods (older accounts would likely have more zetas, and if the account is newer, they've likely spent money to gear up quickly. Either scenario gives a higher likelihood for better mod development over smaller accounts).
So you're blowing a hole wide open in your argument. The tier where participation and full guilds may not be commonplace is where the numbers chan ge... Huh..? You think it could be where the more casual guilds reside...? My guild had 32 sign up out of 47. WE ARE NOT SANDBAGGING. It simply is not required to join and some wars are like this where we have 32-35 and others we have 45+ I promise you no one is asked to sit out because that is just dumb.
I see. In my mind, that’s not really sandbagging. Strategizing for maximizing strength isn’t necessarily sandbagging.
I can tell you from being in a competitive TW guild that is you have 50 people join, have a solid defensive plan and a solid offensive plan, sandbagging doesn't have that dramatic an effect. We have "punched" above our weight many times.
I can also tell that the times we went in short because of retirements and not being able to fill a guild before lock, they have been easy matchups for us, with some guils not clearing more than 1 or 2 zones.
In short, the impact of sandbagging is dependent on how much your guild values TW and focuses on it, imo.
DarthBarron (Kevin, aka KevWalker)
It's what silly people are calling apathy.
They aren't, unless they think they are a super elite guild that will lose players/recruits because of TW losses.... But I don't think I've ever seen anyone say "we lost a member to a guild that was getting less stars in TB and doing raids less often but they win almost all their TWs".
We're getting sandbagged right now as we speak. Our avg of 3.8m GP vs 4.6m GP is absurd. Cleared our map in 10 hours as we barely broke through to ships. Happens so often to us, and we have a lot of talent.
Well if a YouTuber talked about it.....it MUST be true! Excuse me will I leave to got to my incel forum on 4chan to discuss Qanon.
While it's not always the case, a higher average GP tends to indicate a better quality of the top of the roster. The higher quality of the top-end of the roster, combined with having the benefit of having to deploy less teams, absolutely provides an advantage. As a 140m guild, we've faced guilds with 40-50m more GP and only low 30s number of people signed up on their end. Every time it's happened, we have gotten completely blown out. Whether it's been intentional or circumstantial, those fights have so far been unwinnable for us in every scenario. It doesn't matter how many 80k squads you have if there's enough quality in their way, basically.
This seems like a relatively easy thing to fix in the matchmaking algorithm, and seems like it would only adversly affect the people that are intentionally trying to take advantage of this shortcoming. Unfortunately there does not seem to be any interest on the part of CG to really investigate and potentially address this.
- people who claim that ALL guilds going in with <50 members are doing it intentionally to game the system are wrong. For lots of guilds TW is optional, and people sit out of their own free choice. Mine included. That cannot be debated.
- Whilst I concede that there probably is an advantage for a guild with 44/50 signed up when they face a guild with 50/50 signed up, there is absolutely no guarantee that the guild going in with 44 will be matched with a smaller guild going in with 50. For all they know, they could be matched with an even bigger guild going in with 40.
The best solution for guilds complaining about constantly losing at TW is one of two options:
- stop forcing your low / non-contributors to sign up. You know who they are. All you’re doing by making these guys join TW is giving yourselves a mountain to climb.
- Git gud.
Unless they get matched with a guild with less members then they are still disadvantaged then right... like if they have 40/50 but get matched vs a guild with 30/50 their sitting 10 out didnt help them because the other guild sat 20!!
P.s. easier time winning because higher GP is a false equivalency. More GP doesn't mean better teams... imagine a guild with 10m more GP... it could be all g8 toons which doesn't help them and is a disadvantage for them to have on their roster (but it helps in TB) or IT could be 10m gp of all R7 toons which will help them. So it depends on the roster makeup not the GP.
Most TW come down to a R7 team eating up 10+ enemy teams and holding an area so the better teams and guild with them win in the end. That's wai.
Who forced you guys to put such weak defenses in TW?
This isnt a problem with the game it's a problem with what teams your setting on D.
This is compounded by the lack of coordination attacking like if your going south why would you clear the top front before clearing south and middle those extra teams used in top could have helped you push to back and clear 3 whole territories in middle and bottom instead of the one top front area. Yes you still would have lost but it would have been closer and if you set better defenses and stop the enemy you win.
When the enemy clears everything you set on d that's a sign you need to set better defenses. It's hard to win a war when all your defenses are killed. It's possible but very unlikely... most guilds who win at tw have remaining D standing at the end.
Your experience in a 50M gp guild have no applicability here in the big boy leagues.
23 slots mean 45-46 members, you're blowing up over 5 people not participating. There is no way to prove it actually helps, there is so far only one person I know of who has confessed to it and they potentially don't know what it means, though if they actually do it I'd like to go to their discord and tell their weaker members to leave for their own good. But its based on the once again false assumption that everyone is doing it. Which they aren't.
50m gp lol. I'm in a 250m gp guild. We win 90% plus of TW.
Seems your having a rude awakening to the big boy leagues and lashing out at people trying to help you...
Keep setting Phoenix and bounty hunters on D bud. One day you will realize I'm right and your guilds defense is trash that's why u got full cleared. if not you can always post again and blame CG or another guild or belittle others telling them they 50m gp guild doesn't apply without knowing any facts... truth is you lost because your guilds own mistakes.
Before you attack me again for saying your guilds defenses were too weak... why dont you post screen shots of the defense you guys set to prove me wrong? Theres a novel idea fight with facts with evidence...
I wont hold my breath waiting for a screen shot of your Phoenix defenses dont worry lol.
Which ones do this?
Let's take it to the extremes, and you will see it easier:
There is a guild of 120m gp. (I chose this number bc it is the threshold of 3 zeta which is a significant difference.)
They require 50 members to reach 120m, so they gladly all join (and btw they really should)
And then they are getting matched with a guild of 120m ACTIVE GP, only table is 13, meaning they are 25-26.
This "kinda" means (taking it to a personal level) that you, as a 2.4m GP are getting matched on GAC against a 4.8M GP player, but as a compensation you can duplicate your roster (cannot use the same character twice in a single fight).
Yeah-yeah i know GAC and TW are not exactly the same but i hope you get the concept. I dont think any sane person would claim that it is a fair fight for several reasons that have been mentioned before:
1) older account generally means better developed modpool.
2) higher GP means that it is more likely that they have key-characters unlocked that you dont have (GAS WITH Malak on 2.4m GP is possible but unlikely and definitely not common)
If you start reducing the difference between the average GP-s the obvious advantages start to diminish and one might argue if they are still significant at all. I personally think they are.
This summary is a little different when it comes to top of the lines guilds but the phenomenon is still existing.
Like I said earlier in this thread I know of one guild called alpha. See IMG. they are a 290m gp guild that has an AVG of below 250m gp beated (we've had 2 tw)
I'm not saying all guilds do this but this one does. If you check back on my post earlier in this thread (11 February) you see me predicting their AVG gp beated is way below their own gp.
Before our guild went through a merger to increase active players, we were around the 25 mark every TW. Trust me, our win rate was worse. Having fewer people and more GP doesn't guarantee a win, of course I can't speak for the guilds we were against, but its pretty reasonable to say most of them will have had more participation than us. Guilds who assume they will lose before they've actually fought a TW probably will, because its a stupid attitude to go in with. Oh and to cover both sides of the coin, in our new much better guild, we come across opponents with 10-15 less players than us, doesn't have that much bearing on things. (Anecdotal)
Also no.
I already read about that guild. However, @DarkstarSunrise insinuates that higher GP guilds in general do it. Hence my question.
Also, i never said it was a guaranteed win, on the contrary, i was arguing that the advantage can diminish under certain circumstances.
But thank you for the comment, nevertheless.