Thoughts on Fleet Faction Tags & New Ship ideas.
Just thinking about how we have 8 capital ships now & not enough Fighters to go around & many of them don't match factions well.
Had some ideas below.
1. Since First Order was founded by the Sith Eternal, add Sith Tag to Finalizer & allow faction ability to affect Sith ships as well.
Gives Maul, Marauder, & Assassin a place to go & allows Palp/Vader to pull double duty.
2. Since Resistance is "basically" Rebels 2.0 & since many Rebels were also scoundrels, and given the Resistance was looking for help wherever they could find it. Allow Raddus leadership to affect both Resistance & Scoundrels (Gives Lando a home & HMF or extra BH ships to pull double duty)
3. Finally, given the Empire was probably the biggest fleet from all the movies, can we get some added TIE models using the new "pilotless" options like the Y-Wing/Drones have.
Or just allow TIE Pilot to be generically linked to any TIE fielded, talk about a reason to RELIC a mostly forgotten character.
TIE Bomber, TIE Interceptor, & TIE Defender are all canon ships that would help spread the Empire fleet out to cover more Tarkin & Thrawn fighter slots.
I think these changes would cover most everyone except Carth, who is left out in the cold as having no tag but OR. Maybe add Scoundrel to that ship, then it fits w/ Raddus? IDK.
Thoughts?
Had some ideas below.
1. Since First Order was founded by the Sith Eternal, add Sith Tag to Finalizer & allow faction ability to affect Sith ships as well.
Gives Maul, Marauder, & Assassin a place to go & allows Palp/Vader to pull double duty.
2. Since Resistance is "basically" Rebels 2.0 & since many Rebels were also scoundrels, and given the Resistance was looking for help wherever they could find it. Allow Raddus leadership to affect both Resistance & Scoundrels (Gives Lando a home & HMF or extra BH ships to pull double duty)
3. Finally, given the Empire was probably the biggest fleet from all the movies, can we get some added TIE models using the new "pilotless" options like the Y-Wing/Drones have.
Or just allow TIE Pilot to be generically linked to any TIE fielded, talk about a reason to RELIC a mostly forgotten character.
TIE Bomber, TIE Interceptor, & TIE Defender are all canon ships that would help spread the Empire fleet out to cover more Tarkin & Thrawn fighter slots.
I think these changes would cover most everyone except Carth, who is left out in the cold as having no tag but OR. Maybe add Scoundrel to that ship, then it fits w/ Raddus? IDK.
Thoughts?
2
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2. I would like if they introduced maybe the Executor as a ship supporting Bounty Hunters...It would be cool to have a somewhat similar mechanism to the contracts we have...It would be interesting and definitely fun, I think. They could add Bounty Hunter ships like Dengar's The Punishing One and Mando's The Razor Crest and Jango's Slave One to add to the Bounty Hunter ships...I would also like a touch-up (or maybe rework) to Xanadu Blood...
3. I agree with the Empire ships being suggested to add to the Chimaera and Executrix lineups. TIE Bomber, TIE Interceptor, TIE Defender...There are so many TIE line ships which can be added. A minor rework to The Emperor's Shuttle could make it a powerful addition, maybe the other Sith ships touch ups as well?
4.I would also like if they reworked Endurance to make it a competitive ship and added more Galactic Republic ships..There's definitely some which can be added..Kit Fisto's Jedi Starfighter, Kenobi's Jedi Starfighter which I hope comes with a Master Kenobi (Hey, a guy can dream!), maybe GS getting the Delta-7B Starfighter, and maybesome other crewless GR ships in order to make another good GR lineup apart from the Negotiator
5. And for God's sake CG! Where the hell is Luke's X-Wing!? I hoped they would release it with the Death Star raid but now that the raid is apparently cancelled, I really don't know when will it come out.
6. Separatists are great actually, it's maybe the only good lineup I can form with only Separatist ships while not necessarily using HT or any other ship. They could potentially add The Soulless One (though I don't know how that would work with GG already having a capital ship).
7. Another thing CG needs to embrace is that one character can have more than one ship, case in point Grievous, Vader, Anakin, Boba etc.
A lot of the stuff I've suggested are touch-ups or reworks, but that's because I think CG can really experiment with ships, it can take the shape of a diverse meta. I'm not saying rework all the ships but it would be good to have a separate competitive lineup for every Capital Ship...I don't want every ship to definitively beat every other ship without any strategy. With The Negotiator and Malevolence, I've been having a lot of fun. Plus it's been shown that The Finaliser and Raddus can beat these two ships, so they're fine. Home One's an annoying ship at the lower tiers. So maybe working on the other ships to make them competitive as well would be a welcome change!
1. I think if they give Finalizer the Sith tag they won't need Whisperer, since that would add 3 Sith ships to the 4 FO & allow for 2 more from Vader/Palps. Should be good be plenty good there.
2. Empire already has a bad ratio of 5-Fighters for 2-Star Destroyers. I'd rather see Hondo in the game as a proper Scoundrel cap ship.
4. Yeah, Endurance (And Mace) really need love. The 8 GR ships we have give you options for a full team of GR or 2 Teams at 4 each + others, so it might be nice but they are loads better off than Empire with 5 for 2 cap ships right now so I think Emp needs it more which is why I'm not in love with the Executor idea.
5. Agreed. The Rebels don't need another ship, but dang it, I want it anyway. (Along w/ a Resistance A-Wing to bolster that faction Fighter #)
6. I'm fine w/o Souless one really, what I would like is the Droid Tri-Fighter which would give the Malevolence a full 7 ship fleet (6 w/ IG for Droid Synergy) which would set them up for a long while.
7. I can't disagree, as I think TIE Pilot would be the single best option in the game for that right now.
And TIE Defender would give them the Tank they are in need of. That one or Bomber maybe, IDK.
For example, Jango flying Slave 1 or multiple pilots for the Falcon, rather than copies of the same ship.
You could even have this in conjunction with the idea suggested above, whereby one pilot flies multiple ships - think TIE pilot and R2.
Finalizer being given the Sith tag is the best way to provide a home for the Sith ships right now. Adding a 9th cap ship seems overkill right now. No thanks to that. So extending bonuses to Sith through Finalizer seems the best course of action.
Nah. I see where you're going, but it's a stretch. At BEST you could have it incorporate "Light Side Scoundrels", but I think we should skip that entirely. All the missing scoundrel ships of any note are Bounty Hunter ships. I don't want those in the Resistance.
But Resistance does definitely need help faction wise. It's Tenacity UP boost needs to happen before Negotiator can AoE Daze. The problem here is that Raddus is slower than Negotiator. You could tune up her speed, but there are probably reasons it's set where it is. So instead, I think the best thing to do is to introduce a ship like the A-Wing that is massively fast and grants 10% TM to its capital ship on its basic.
The whole faction is so terrible - a mere 3 non-cap ships, and none of them elite, and all 3 of them relying on either TM gain or assists. But we're pushed to invest in this terrible faction for GL Rey. It just can't stay like this.
So...
A-Wing:
StarFortress:
Hammerhead Corvette:
With only 3 ships, one of them terrible and the other two only decent, the Resistance Navy is possibly the single worst faction, yet it has an end-game CapShip and a Fleet Commander that demands (for other reasons) high relic levels. I hate it.
But if you could get that first special off before Negotiator (by using the A-Wing) and then stack exposes, this fleet could be a real threat. One thing you should probably do to make up for the potency of these combos is to make the TIE Silencer take reduced damage from %health effects, just like Kylo himself. Other than that, it's probably fine.
One of the things I like about this is that it doesn't require tweaking the Resistance ships already in the game. The Hammerhead calls Poe, but Poe doesn't need his ship description to change.
It is also a faction that doesn't kick @$$ right out of the box. You need to either bring in StarFortress or Hammerhead Corvette as a reinforcement. And you'll need the A-Wing in on the first turn. But if you get Hammerhead and A-Wing and either Poe or Resistance X-Wing, then you can get PXW and RXW getting bonuses from A-Wing's unique. That's a minimum of 3 ships (and better with 4) to get that synergy going. Plus you want to get the StarFortress in there, so that's 5 ships all in at the same time to get the synergy party going hardest. That's hard to do, but with A-Wing bumping TM to Raddus, that helps you along.
Note that Rey's MilFalc doesn't synergies really well with these other ships, but
a) it was an auxiliary. It didn't train with the Resistance Navy. From the time that Rey joined up, she was being sent on missions here & there and generally traipsing about the galaxy. Her synergies shouldn't be that great. They should be there, but not super great. And
b) she gets all the synergies with Raddus, so that's fine. And
c) she's the only one with an AoE in the resistance ships. And any AoE becomes much more potent when you've got undispellable Exposes stacking on the opposing ships.
So she synergizes beyond the Raddus bonuses without spelling it out, by having a kit which takes advantage of Expose when none of the other Resistance ships can (like when an Exposed ship is under stealth or behind a Tank's Taunt).
As a final note, the Hammerhead Corvette does more than just Taunt. It has some decent health/protection recovery, but it's not as good as Hound's Tooth. On the other hand, its taunt is going to be horribly annoying for factions which use a lot of Target Lock. So you're more likely to have to kill it first, but it's also quicker to kill. You might think that this would tempt people to use Hound's Tooth instead, but the Basic ability to call assists is SOOOO much better than Hound's Tooth in a Resistance fleet, that you can effectively replace Hound's Tooth without making its replacement even more unkillable than HT. We desperately need diversity in the Tanks used. Right now, HT is the first choice Tank of every single faction. That shouldn't be. HC has the power to completely displace HT in Resistance fleets, and that's a really, really good thing.
So that's my thinking in creating these three ships. Complex synergies that take time to evolve and work with existing ships but require THREE new ships to fully bring to bear (and thus has a good multi-week lag from release to full power).
In battle, this is the kind of faction that gets stronger the longer it goes on. All the ships I propose interact well with others, but none have a single, overwhelming interaction that makes picking your starting 3 easy. I like that, since it makes people really think about their own best strategy and gives people flexibility to use some synergies but not others based on which ships and pilots they have best developed.
This is the kind of fleet that could challenge the current meta, the way it deserves to do. The way it can't do right now - not even close - because of the lack of Resistance ships.
I like both these ideas. The Empire clearly used bounty hunters. The Empire fleet clearly needs help. So giving new TIE ships and expanding the Executrix's synergies (but not Thrawn's) to cover Bounty Hunters would make it possible to field both Empire ships at the same time in GAC.
However, I think the contract mechanic goes too far. Let there be some synergy there, but Executrix is not a great Cap Ship. It's not supposed to be. It's early-game. With BH getting the same synergies as Empire with Exec you can at least give them a home ... but let's wait for introducing a true BH Cap Ship (Hondo?) to get something like contracts going. (Also, contracts can easily applies to smugglers, too, right? So in the ship version, let's make Hondo's contracts available to both Smuggler ships and also to BH ships.)
As a final note, I'll also say that I think XB is fine.
Blah.
Some of the CapShips have to be bad or no one will want to progress to better cap ships. If you also have great fighters (like the GalRep faction has), then why move up to Negotiator?
Sure I like the idea of adding some more ships to this faction so you can field both CapShips in a single GAC round if you like. But It's not that much of a priority, and certainly Endurance should not be improved.
As a final note, I like the idea of adding Kenobi's Starfighter to the game ... but as the worst ship in any fleet. He was the one who hated flying and thought it should be left to the droids. So make even the droids better than he is.
I, too, thought it would be released with the Ship raid/Death Star Raid. I think that they should stick to that plan. Give us CLS X-Wing blueprints as the big reward for the Heroic raid. Then make that ship especially good at killing the death star (duh) so that the ship raid part gets much easier once you have the ship at 7*. Gives us something to work for, and it's incredibly thematically appropriate.
I want 1-2 more Separatist ships. The one that we DESPERATELY need is the Ginnivex Fan-Blade (Ventress' ship). The IG-2000 fits as a droid ship, of course, but I'd still like to see a full 7-ship Separatist fleet, so ...
...you could also add Dooku's ship. Make it a helper ship that can't deal damage and escapes if it's the last ship present. Give it the ability to negate or dispel Stealth in order to make the Separatists true GalRep killers. Make it fairly hard to get the shards, so that new players can't get it easily. We don't want a starting Separatist Fleet to negate the Advantage of Undying Loyalty. But we would love to make it a bit easier for Malevolence to win against Negotiator if they did have Dooku.
I don't think this is something that they would oppose, per se, but how would you make it work, mechanically? If a character had more than one ship, would it be possible to use both of those ships in a single round of GAC? That wouldn't make sense if they really are using the same pilot.
So this is a downvote from me, just because of the programming complexity and all the complaints from players even if they got it right. Imagine the people who don't get why they can't use Luke's X-Wing and Anakin's Starfighter in the same GAC if they both used R2. Players would react badly and it's not worth the headache.
Nah. As I've said, intro CapShips should stay at a different (lower) level in terms of power than later CapShips.
Sure, Akbar can be annoying, but only after you get MilFalc, and by then you're going to be fairly close to moving on to another CapShip the way the game is currently constructed for new players. Until MilFalc, Thrawn is probably better, and if not, he's just as good.
So there's the beginning meta:
1. Ackbar/Thrawn
2. Tarkin
3. Mace
Tarkin is probably the best right out of the gate, because you have to gear up DarkSide ships first for the zeta challenge and you don't have Thrawn yet. One of the ships has to be the worse, and that's Endurance, but Mace has the advantage of having some of the very best ships available to any fleet in its own faction (Anakin, Fives, Y-Wing) and then the single best early-game reinforcement ability that works well with a low-gear pilot (Plo Koon). So even though the CapShip is bad, GalRep's fighters could make up for it if you went for them at an early level.
I see all these as balanced early, with Thrawn and Ackbar balanced for a little while longer (call it the early-middle). Then Ackbar shoots past the others, but its easily possible to get 5* Malevolence + Full Geos before you get MilFalc, which means that if you want to go Seps, you can kill Rebels pretty darn easily even after they get MilFalc.
So Ackbar is balanced by Grievous as soon as (or even sooner than) Ackbar finally outpaces Thrawn. And if your Malevolence farm is taking longer than you thought? Well, you can still use Geos + Hyena & Vulture with Tarkin or Thrawn. I haven't tried that kind of set up because I'm not a new player nowadays, but it would probably work against MilFalc rebels on offense, at least some of the time.
And when you're fully into the 6* Malevolence era, approaching getting 7* Malevolence, then you'll have Negotiators coming online with the high-gear pilots you need to get Negotiator to squash those bugs. You're back to a balanced meta again, between two specific fleets.
As the Raddus and Finalizer come on board, the meta diversifies more, but from where I sit there will never be another new Fleet shard where there's only a single fleet type at the top of the rankings. Sure, since Finalizer & Raddus are new, some of the established Fleet shards are currently dominated by Negotiator, but that's not the natural state of things. It will diversify with the new fleets coming online.
And for me, that's what we need. you say,
but I go farther.
I want some CapShips (Endurance, Executrix) to be completely outclassed as people grow in power. There's a time early on when Thrawn is the most godlike character you can have, then CLS. But although they don't diminish in time, an Empire squad with Thrawn lead doesn't remotely compare to a DR SithEmpire squad. It should be the same in fleet. You should want new people to grow into more powerful toons.
If you think about it, this is especially important if we finally get that ship raid: we need people to score less well at lower levels than at later levels. Part of how to control this is to gate powerful CapShips so that the earlier ones acquired are less potent in battle.
So I think Endurance should be doomed from the start against any opponent that would give a good fight to a Negotiator with the same fighters. Same with Executrix and Malevolence.
This is the way.
This should be the way indeed.
Glad you like my Resistance ideas! Obviously I put a bunch of thought into them.
This is good for me to hear. I went the Negotiator route and so I haven't gotten Malevolence to 5* yet (I'm about 6k GET2 away). This gives me no practice in doing things the other way, but I know that I find it trivially easy to beat Malevolence when I'm on offense with Negotiator, so I worried that it wouldn't be a good enough counter.
I'm actually really glad that - at least on offense - Malevolence does quite well against Negotiator. Makes for a more balanced and interesting meta over the long haul.
I'll take your word for it that Dooku dispelling stealth would still be a good idea (since it might be useful to help Malevolence on defense, assuming it's power-tuned appropriately).
Yep, but we have to get away from HT. If you can't displace HT by making a tank even more unkillable, then you have to find other reasons to make people choose the new Tank. And I gave people a way around it pretty easily. In fact, I designed it to be highly susceptible to Malevolence, which doesn't use Target Lock at all.
So Seps should destroy the Hammerhead quickly, given its much, much poorer health regeneration, but Empire and FO, who both use a bunch of Target Lock, would probably have to kill Hammerhead first, regardless of what they would rather do. And Negotiator GalRep fleets might struggle.
So even on offense, I hope this fleet would struggle against Malevolence, despite doing very well against Negotiator.
I haven't seen enough of FO to be sure, but I also intend that Raddus v. Finalizer would be brutal matches that would be hard for either side to win.
Then we would have Nego trashing Malevolence on offense, Mal easily trashing Raddus on offense, and Raddus trashing Nego, with Finalizer being the wild card until we learn more about how it performs (it's looking good so far, but it's hard to know for sure). One thing we do know is that Finalizer is another team hat starts quickly. So the trick in Finalizer v. Raddus would be to stretch out the battle (if Raddus) or end it quickly (if Finalizer).
I'd love to see something like that!
I don't like the Corvette idea since that thing is a capital ship, not a fighter.
I'd still like to find some sort of a whole for Lando & that Carth ship, but I guess its not too imporant.
The issue I see w/ Endurance isn't that its "the worst" it that it literally has NO reason to be taken, EVER.
Actually, the only time you might consider taking it isn't in the EARLY game where it should have SOME use.
Its if you just don't want to go Negotiator but you still want GAS.
So I'd like to see the early ships more balanced against each other.
Tarkin is a MUST have early game for Zetas.
Home One is a MUST have for Falcon Meta.
Endurance is only useful if have limited GET2 & favor Seps fleet over GR.
So some type of tweak would be nice.
Your opinions are, of course, just as valid as anyone else's opinions and I'm not trying to change your mind about what you like or don't like. But I just thought I'd point out that this statement:
Isn't actually correct. A Capital Ship isn't just any ship that's kinda big. It's a command ship and is generally much bigger than even other ships of war, but the importance is about capabilities and admiral command staff and more, not just size. This is the description of a Capital Ship from wikipedia:
The capital ships of a navy are its most important warships; they are generally the larger ships when compared to other warships in their respective fleet. A capital ship is generally a leading or a primary ship in a naval fleet.[1]
Corvettes, on the other hand, are described this way by Wikipedia:
it's a "warship" and not a fighter (or "fast attack craft") but it's not anything like a Capital Ship. Just like Hound's Tooth is much, much bigger than a fighter, but is also not remotely a Capital Ship.
Hope that helps!
=================
PS. Some comparisons of the sizes of actual fighting ships in Star Wars:
A-Wing (rough, not official)
Length ................5.5m
Width..................5m
Height/Depth.....3.5m
Hound's Tooth:
Length .............. 47.4 meters[4]
Width.................36.9 meters[4]
Height/depth.....15.5 meters[4]
Hammerhead Corvette:
Dimensions not listed, but crew size is:
Minimum crew: 1
Standard crew: 35
There's no way to run a command ship with 1 person. It's simply not possible.
Executrix:
Length: 1600 meters
Description of crew: ========================
Now go back and watch the ramming scene from Rogue1 on youtube. The Hammerhead Corvette isn't even 1/10th the length of the Star Destroyer, and we're not even clear if that's a Star Destroyer of the same size as Executrix (which was big for a Star Destroyer, even if there were others a lot larger).
If it's 1/15th to 1/20th the length and the SD is fully as big as the Executrix, then the Hammerhead is about 80m (less than 2x the length of Hound's Tooth) to 140m (about 3x the length of HT), but it's not any wider (or maybe only a tiny bit wider) since the Hammerhead is narrower compared to length than HT is.
2x to 3x as big as HT also fits the pricing. The cost of Hound's Tooth is listed in Wookiepedia as 415,000 credits, while the Hammerhead is listed as costing 1,000,000 credits (one million). That means that the Hammerhead costs about 2.4 times as much as HT. for a ship that's probably about that much bigger. It fits.
The TL/DR is this: The Hammerhead is not a Cap Ship and is fairly close in size to Hound's Tooth. It would definitely be bigger, but it wouldn't even be close to the level of "too large to field in a fighting fleet".
In the SW Universe Expanded Universe/Games products they describe ships in basically 2 scales.
Capital Ship Scale (Corvettes and bigger...Frigate, Cruiser, Star Destroyer, Battleship, Dreadnaught, etc.)
Star Fighter Scale. (Light Freighters and Down) ..... (Or is it medium, I forget)
For rough idea, call it Over/Under around 100 Meters in length. Probably a bit less than that.
So Houndstooth, the Falcon, Ghost, Slave-1 are all Freighters (Gunships), but in SW terms they operate on the "scale" of Star Fighters.
We don't seem to have a length for the Sphyrna-class corvette but we do for the CR-90 "Corellian" Corvette that is somewhat similar looking & has a similar crew size.
Crew - 35 (Minimum crew - 1)
Passengers - 125
Length - Unknown?
v/s
Crew - 46 - 165 (Pretty sure this one also has a Minimum of 1 since Wedge did it in 1 of the old stories.)
Diplomats (partially) - 39
Length - 150 meters
And while a CR-90 Corvette is very small for a "Capital" ship, in the SW universe its still "Capital-Grade".
Now that said, both are Corvettes which is the smallest grade of "Capital" ship in the SW universe.
The ships that are riding along w/ Negotiator are also "Capital-Grade/Scale" ships, and like the Corvettes are classified as "Escorts" v/s full on Cruisers+.
The Falcon is a Light Freighter of 35 meters long.
Hound's Tooth is also a Light Freighter at 47 meters long as you stated.
While the Corvettes can be crewed by 1 that is just to move it from the main pilots station, its not going to be fully functional with only 1 person on board operating.
More like 1 can get it going to steal it or escape or put it on a heading for a suicide charge.
But its not conducting full battle operations on just one.
So after all that, I'm just saying I don't think we should have full on "Capital-Scale/Grade" warships of even the lightest class as "Star Fighters".
I think the StarFortress Bomber & that odd Shuttle Leia was in in EP7 are plenty big enough ships to fill out any roles that might be missing.
But as you said, that is just my opinion.
And I love the idea of A-Wing boosting Raddus speed like I said.
I don't think they need an "Uber-Tank" on the scale of Hound's Tooth when they can just use Hound's Tooth like any other faction does & the buffs from Raddus work to keep the fleet strong/healed anyway IIRC.