Your TW match making DOES NOT WORK!!!

OlderSchool74
1 posts Member
edited September 2020
I have been working on the Jedi Master title since it was made available. I have EVERYTHING ELSE done and have been at 5/10 TW wins FOR 11 MONTHS!! My guild participates in TW's EVERY TIME they are available and each time we get crushed. My guild GP is 176,213,543 and we get matched with guilds WAY stronger than we are. Last TW ALL of our defenses were taken down in 1 or 2 battles. We have a few fully relic'd DR squads!!!
You need to create more tiers in the TW so we are better matched. Not only are you encouraging ptp, which i understand, but you are REWARDING IT!!!!!
Post edited by Kyno on

Replies

  • Gifafi
    6017 posts Member
    I agree with the more tiers part. same with gac etc
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    1. Why pay if ptp wasn't rewarded?
    2. Just because your opponents win doesn't make them paying players.
    3. My alt is in a guild which is mostly f2p and in the 180s most of the year and winning about 75%. Maybe you should check your rosters, strategies or execution.
  • Rath_Tarr
    4944 posts Member
    My guild participates in TW's EVERY TIME they are available and each time we get crushed. My guild GP is 176,213,543 and we get matched with guilds WAY stronger than we are. Last TW ALL of our defenses were taken down in 1 or 2 battles. We have a few fully relic'd DR squads!!!
    There's your problem: your guild is weak.
    You need to create more tiers in the TW so we are better matched.
    That wont fix your problem. You will need to either change guilds or help to improve the one you are in.
  • Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    My guild participates in TW's EVERY TIME they are available and each time we get crushed. My guild GP is 176,213,543 and we get matched with guilds WAY stronger than we are. Last TW ALL of our defenses were taken down in 1 or 2 battles. We have a few fully relic'd DR squads!!!
    There's your problem: your guild is weak.
    You need to create more tiers in the TW so we are better matched.
    That wont fix your problem. You will need to either change guilds or help to improve the one you are in.

    To be fair, there is indeed a problem with the matchmaking. More and more stronger guilds start to do sandbagging, going into TW only with 2/3 of members to specifically get matched against much weaker guilds. It's not fair and imho the matchmaking should not only consider total GP but also the number of members registered.
  • TVF
    36528 posts Member
    Or do they
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • The root problem is GP is looked at without any consideration for the number of players. Players with more GP have rosters with greater depth and thus can set stronger defenses and still full clear.
  • crzydroid
    7255 posts Moderator
    This has been an ongoing issue forever.

    GP is a deeply flawed measure and is really more of a collection score. Granted, there are supposedly other things involved in matchmaking, but GP is a part of it.

    Then there's the issue of, does it make sense to match on collection score though. There will be disgreement here. It is natural to think guilds should be fairly evenly matched on comparable roster strength and diversity. It is certainly extremely frustrating to be outclassed by a guild that is sandbagging. On the other hand, I do see arguments being made that if you have a guild with a lot of bloated rosters and not a good focus on mods, they should absolutely lose to a guild that has spent the same amount of resources but was diligently chasing the meta and didn't waste anything on low tier characters.

    But that still raises the issue of game balance in general, and why we have so many characters that are no good competitively and can't be used anywhere. Maybe there could be casual and competitive classes, but I have no idea how they'd implement that. Even in such a case, I can see an argument for guilds that don't understand mods losing to those that do. But overall it would be best if the only concern for TW was strategy; though I feel even what we COULD have in that regard is limited by the current setup.

    So I can see where some would argue that you're in a bad guild, and others that wpuld say matchmaking IS horribly broken, partly as a result of game balance being horribly broken. I'm not sure which side I agree with more.
  • The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.
    crzydroid wrote: »
    So I can see where some would argue that you're in a bad guild, and others that wpuld say matchmaking IS horribly broken, partly as a result of game balance being horribly broken. I'm not sure which side I agree with more.

    If the matchmaking wasn't awful, the OP's guild would be matched against similar guilds. You shouldn't be able to just say "well get into a stronger guild," because that shouldn't actually matter.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    How you spend that money (GP) and your skill to work with the products (your roster) would determine the winner.

    Similarly if you have the same active GP (I will get into more details later), you have the same opportunity to build a similar number of toons to a similar level, and then use your skills with said roster to battle it out.

    Now the more later:
    There should be more consideration towards average GP or other factors that level the playing field at the per player level when looking at 2 guilds with different numbers of players, but that is still based on GP, because that is a good blind measure of a roster. I dont believe CG should be stepping in to place judgment on what should or should not be matched on any factors like key teams, or key toons, or anything like that. It should still be GP based, but slightly more refined.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    How you spend that money (GP) and your skill to work with the products (your roster) would determine the winner.

    Similarly if you have the same active GP (I will get into more details later), you have the same opportunity to build a similar number of toons to a similar level, and then use your skills with said roster to battle it out.

    Now the more later:
    There should be more consideration towards average GP or other factors that level the playing field at the per player level when looking at 2 guilds with different numbers of players, but that is still based on GP, because that is a good blind measure of a roster. I dont believe CG should be stepping in to place judgment on what should or should not be matched on any factors like key teams, or key toons, or anything like that. It should still be GP based, but slightly more refined.

    In a 1v1 matchup I agree you can just use active GP (I actually think the top 80 GP they use for GA works out just fine). If one player is bloated and one player is lean, the lean player will probably win. I don't have an issue with this.

    But a guild with 200M active GP with 50 players signed up vs a guild with 200M active GP and 40 players signed up is not even kind of the same thing.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    edited September 2020
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    How you spend that money (GP) and your skill to work with the products (your roster) would determine the winner.

    Similarly if you have the same active GP (I will get into more details later), you have the same opportunity to build a similar number of toons to a similar level, and then use your skills with said roster to battle it out.

    Now the more later:
    There should be more consideration towards average GP or other factors that level the playing field at the per player level when looking at 2 guilds with different numbers of players, but that is still based on GP, because that is a good blind measure of a roster. I dont believe CG should be stepping in to place judgment on what should or should not be matched on any factors like key teams, or key toons, or anything like that. It should still be GP based, but slightly more refined.

    In a 1v1 matchup I agree you can just use active GP (I actually think the top 80 GP they use for GA works out just fine). If one player is bloated and one player is lean, the lean player will probably win. I don't have an issue with this.

    But a guild with 200M active GP with 50 players signed up vs a guild with 200M active GP and 40 players signed up is not even kind of the same thing.

    Agreed, they need to add factors that levels out the player level match when pairing guilds of different quantities. I also think that should be GP, whether its average GP or something like that as a factor.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    How you spend that money (GP) and your skill to work with the products (your roster) would determine the winner.

    Similarly if you have the same active GP (I will get into more details later), you have the same opportunity to build a similar number of toons to a similar level, and then use your skills with said roster to battle it out.

    Now the more later:
    There should be more consideration towards average GP or other factors that level the playing field at the per player level when looking at 2 guilds with different numbers of players, but that is still based on GP, because that is a good blind measure of a roster. I dont believe CG should be stepping in to place judgment on what should or should not be matched on any factors like key teams, or key toons, or anything like that. It should still be GP based, but slightly more refined.

    In a 1v1 matchup I agree you can just use active GP (I actually think the top 80 GP they use for GA works out just fine). If one player is bloated and one player is lean, the lean player will probably win. I don't have an issue with this.

    But a guild with 200M active GP with 50 players signed up vs a guild with 200M active GP and 40 players signed up is not even kind of the same thing.

    Agreed, they need to add factors that levels out the player level match when pairing guilds of different quantities. I also think that should be GP, whether its average GP or something like that as a factor.

    Well, the average active GP of both guilds would still be 4M, so not sure you can really do that.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    But it’s not. The root problem with matchmaking is that GP is a HORRIBLE indicator of how good a character/roster is. By far the #1 reason I am undefeated in GAC on my new account is because I understand the flaws in the GP calculation and how to exploit it. In my current GAC, I have 18 Gear 13 characters. The other 7 players combined have 22. I frequently have over half the G13 characters in the 8 man grouping and even had 2/3 of the G13 characters once recently.

    Matchmaking is never going to be fair until CG fixes how GP is calculated or adjusts the factors that go into matchmaking.
  • Ztyle
    1970 posts Member
    As a minimum it should match
    active GP and number of active members

    now you can go in with 50 and get matched against 42, that have approx. the same active GP
    That guild that comes with 50 players has little to no chance of winning, as their toon are simply not strong enough compared to the toons in the guild with 42 active players

    example active GP 200M
    50=4M average
    42=4.76M average
    That's a huge difference
    I'm Danish , Leader of the Space Slug Alliance , living the SlugLife , My collection
  • Ztyle wrote: »
    As a minimum it should match
    active GP and number of active members

    now you can go in with 50 and get matched against 42, that have approx. the same active GP
    That guild that comes with 50 players has little to no chance of winning, as their toon are simply not strong enough compared to the toons in the guild with 42 active players

    example active GP 200M
    50=4M average
    42=4.76M average
    That's a huge difference

    Matching active players will significantly narrow the potential guilds available to be matched with, and will therefore result in more matches with large GP differentials.

    Ignoring the problem with GP itself, which will always limit the effectiveness of matchmaking, I would recommend using the GAC style of matchmaking but for guilds. Take the GP of the top 300 characters in the guild or something (I put little thought into that exact number, it’s the concept that matters).

  • GP itself, which will always limit the effectiveness of matchmaking.

    I do agree with you that GP can be a poor indicator as I recall a post you made where you said you were undefeated in GAC because of your selective G13 investments. GP, as we all know, is subject to roster inflation so a different system might be necessary. I had the idea of each character receiving a certain number of competitive points that is based on a character’s use in the game, the gear, ability upgrades and mods on said character, applied to a number of characters within a player’s roster, and having competitive point brackets instead of GP brackets. This way, only players with super-inflated rosters could ever be matched with players with players whose rosters have high GP because of selective investment, such as your account. The only downside is the required time and effort to give each character a specific number of points based on competitive play to maximize matchmaking effectiveness.

    I know this is a TW post, not a GAC post, but I can’t help but feel as though some of what I said was applicable, even though matchmaking systems are different for each.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    How you spend that money (GP) and your skill to work with the products (your roster) would determine the winner.

    Similarly if you have the same active GP (I will get into more details later), you have the same opportunity to build a similar number of toons to a similar level, and then use your skills with said roster to battle it out.

    Now the more later:
    There should be more consideration towards average GP or other factors that level the playing field at the per player level when looking at 2 guilds with different numbers of players, but that is still based on GP, because that is a good blind measure of a roster. I dont believe CG should be stepping in to place judgment on what should or should not be matched on any factors like key teams, or key toons, or anything like that. It should still be GP based, but slightly more refined.

    In a 1v1 matchup I agree you can just use active GP (I actually think the top 80 GP they use for GA works out just fine). If one player is bloated and one player is lean, the lean player will probably win. I don't have an issue with this.

    But a guild with 200M active GP with 50 players signed up vs a guild with 200M active GP and 40 players signed up is not even kind of the same thing.

    Agreed, they need to add factors that levels out the player level match when pairing guilds of different quantities. I also think that should be GP, whether its average GP or something like that as a factor.

    Well, the average active GP of both guilds would still be 4M, so not sure you can really do that.

    200/50 = 4M

    200/40 = 5M

    average of active players who joined. not sure how the average active GP would be equal when you have different numbers joining and the sum is equal.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    But it’s not. The root problem with matchmaking is that GP is a HORRIBLE indicator of how good a character/roster is. By far the #1 reason I am undefeated in GAC on my new account is because I understand the flaws in the GP calculation and how to exploit it. In my current GAC, I have 18 Gear 13 characters. The other 7 players combined have 22. I frequently have over half the G13 characters in the 8 man grouping and even had 2/3 of the G13 characters once recently.

    Matchmaking is never going to be fair until CG fixes how GP is calculated or adjusts the factors that go into matchmaking.

    but how good your roster/characters are is based on the choices you made while building your GP up to what it is.

    calling it an exploit doesn't make it an exploit. you are using strategy to build a good roster for GAC, why is that an exploit?
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    But it’s not. The root problem with matchmaking is that GP is a HORRIBLE indicator of how good a character/roster is. By far the #1 reason I am undefeated in GAC on my new account is because I understand the flaws in the GP calculation and how to exploit it. In my current GAC, I have 18 Gear 13 characters. The other 7 players combined have 22. I frequently have over half the G13 characters in the 8 man grouping and even had 2/3 of the G13 characters once recently.

    Matchmaking is never going to be fair until CG fixes how GP is calculated or adjusts the factors that go into matchmaking.

    but how good your roster/characters are is based on the choices you made while building your GP up to what it is.

    calling it an exploit doesn't make it an exploit. you are using strategy to build a good roster for GAC, why is that an exploit?

    Understanding how it works =! good measure of roster functionality. That's the primary point and always has been.

    I honestly don't want to get into yet another long discussion on why GP is a poor measure of roster functionality - but suffice it to say that my favorite parts of this game are anything that does not rely on matchmaking. GAC and TW are my least favorite parts of the game - largely because of the fact that GP-based (or largely GP-based) matchmaking does such a poor job of creating close matches. And there are many times it works in my favor - it still isn't fun. It's made worse by the fact that you can't change mods in either game mode to adjust strategy based on opponent or counters or anything. In TW, you just have to hope there's an enemy team that fits your counter's mods - and in GAC, you're often just stuck.

    Slightly off topic: If CG ever moves toward making crystal income significantly more dependent on game modes that involve GP-based matchmaking, and that have "mod locks" - that will be the day I hang up my lightsaber.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    But it’s not. The root problem with matchmaking is that GP is a HORRIBLE indicator of how good a character/roster is. By far the #1 reason I am undefeated in GAC on my new account is because I understand the flaws in the GP calculation and how to exploit it. In my current GAC, I have 18 Gear 13 characters. The other 7 players combined have 22. I frequently have over half the G13 characters in the 8 man grouping and even had 2/3 of the G13 characters once recently.

    Matchmaking is never going to be fair until CG fixes how GP is calculated or adjusts the factors that go into matchmaking.

    but how good your roster/characters are is based on the choices you made while building your GP up to what it is.

    calling it an exploit doesn't make it an exploit. you are using strategy to build a good roster for GAC, why is that an exploit?

    Understanding how it works =! good measure of roster functionality. That's the primary point and always has been.

    I honestly don't want to get into yet another long discussion on why GP is a poor measure of roster functionality - but suffice it to say that my favorite parts of this game are anything that does not rely on matchmaking. GAC and TW are my least favorite parts of the game - largely because of the fact that GP-based (or largely GP-based) matchmaking does such a poor job of creating close matches. And there are many times it works in my favor - it still isn't fun. It's made worse by the fact that you can't change mods in either game mode to adjust strategy based on opponent or counters or anything. In TW, you just have to hope there's an enemy team that fits your counter's mods - and in GAC, you're often just stuck.

    Slightly off topic: If CG ever moves toward making crystal income significantly more dependent on game modes that involve GP-based matchmaking, and that have "mod locks" - that will be the day I hang up my lightsaber.

    I never said GP is a good measure of functionality. Its not, its also not intended to be.

    Its a measure of investment. the functionally comes from how you manage your investment.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    The *real* problem is that CG doesn't even believe there is a flaw in their matchmaking. They simply don't understand their game enough to know that active GP is almost meaningless.

    I would disagree with that, active GP is akin to handing 2 people $100 and asking them to cook the best meal they can.

    But it’s not. The root problem with matchmaking is that GP is a HORRIBLE indicator of how good a character/roster is. By far the #1 reason I am undefeated in GAC on my new account is because I understand the flaws in the GP calculation and how to exploit it. In my current GAC, I have 18 Gear 13 characters. The other 7 players combined have 22. I frequently have over half the G13 characters in the 8 man grouping and even had 2/3 of the G13 characters once recently.

    Matchmaking is never going to be fair until CG fixes how GP is calculated or adjusts the factors that go into matchmaking.

    but how good your roster/characters are is based on the choices you made while building your GP up to what it is.

    calling it an exploit doesn't make it an exploit. you are using strategy to build a good roster for GAC, why is that an exploit?

    Understanding how it works =! good measure of roster functionality. That's the primary point and always has been.

    I honestly don't want to get into yet another long discussion on why GP is a poor measure of roster functionality - but suffice it to say that my favorite parts of this game are anything that does not rely on matchmaking. GAC and TW are my least favorite parts of the game - largely because of the fact that GP-based (or largely GP-based) matchmaking does such a poor job of creating close matches. And there are many times it works in my favor - it still isn't fun. It's made worse by the fact that you can't change mods in either game mode to adjust strategy based on opponent or counters or anything. In TW, you just have to hope there's an enemy team that fits your counter's mods - and in GAC, you're often just stuck.

    Slightly off topic: If CG ever moves toward making crystal income significantly more dependent on game modes that involve GP-based matchmaking, and that have "mod locks" - that will be the day I hang up my lightsaber.

    I never said GP is a good measure of functionality. Its not, its also not intended to be.

    Its a measure of investment. the functionally comes from how you manage your investment.

    It's not a measure of investment - see Bulldog's example above. If it is, then it's a very poor one.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
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