I'm someone who has both GLs with that said Vader is Vader and you should not NERF this Vader is the ultimate GL
Agree. Vader should be this good and he should stay this good.
And whats the purpose of a GL char like Rey than, who needs unbelievable more resources to get? To be steamrolled by a F2P toon that everyone has since ages? Cool logic..
Vader should always be this good. In the movies, he is an overall better, and more iconic character than rey and kylo. CG just happened to rework Vader after they released GL's a couple months ago.
"More iconic", for sure.
"Better" in the movies, in the sense "stronger" ? That's debatable. Should we ?
Do it! Debates based on one own's opinion is the only reason the internet exists!
Move up a few post from yours, you'll find true internet happiness.
Vader would beat Kylo and Rey in a lightsaber duel (fighting them one at a time).
Ok, let's do this. I'll root for Rey.
What did we witness in the movies regarding Vador lightsaber skills ? (We're talking Vader here, the guy in suit. We can't compared with Anakin, considering his general health after his last fight as Anakin. We can only judge with what we see when he's in the suit. Fair ?)
ANH: fight an old man about 15 years older than him that lived alone in a desert for a long time, while he was living in a military facility, probably with a gym nearby. 'Wasn't able to smash the old guy until he purposely lost.
ESB: Kick his son's ****, who never had any lightsaber lessons as far as we know, except probably tutorial videos telling him to use small training droids.
ROTJ: Fought his son again, who got better. Lost.
RO (not OT, but ok): fight a bunch of soldiers on a diplomatic shuttle, some of them quite old. Impressive.
Rey fought the personal guards (plural) of the Supreme Leader of the Galaxy (sort of) and won. Granted, she wasn't alone, but they were strongly outnumbers and she did her part. A movie later she won a duel vs a Starship built for combat. Not close combat, I give you that.
Considering the movies, I say Rey demonstrate stronger swordmanship than Vader.
And I raise you lightsaber skills with force powers. Rey smashed a starship (what's her deal with starships, is it because she was a scavenger that she needs to scrap them at sight ?) with force lightning. Vador chocks old guys (what's his deal with old guys ?).
Your move !
One thing to mention. I don't know if this has any affect on the debate but the original trilogy was made in the late 1970s to early 1980s. The graphics in the movies might not be as good back then so they might not have been able to show Vader doing really cool moves. Now to the debate.
Although Vader lost to Luke, Luke is a very powerful Jedi and Vader (in ROTJ) was able to have a pretty decent battle with him.
Vader should be able to choke regular people as easy as old guys because if someone is choking, they can't breathe or do anything else.
Also, Rey didn't really smash a starship, it looked more like a cargo carrier that was used to carry prisoners. Rey also had significantly less training than Vader so Vader would be more experienced.
Granted, Rey was able to defeat Snoke's guards but, the guards don't know how to wield a lightsaber and, they don't have any force powers to go with their decent weapon skills. The guards are also no match for Vader. Plus, Rey wasn't the only one battling the guards.
Force Powers: Equal
Experience: Vader
Swordsmanship: Vader by a tiny bit
Rey would beat Vader, her plot armour is better and Lucasfilm have decided she is the best Mary Sue ever.
bruh who likes rey. Vader is super powerful. I mean he was Darth Vader in Revenge of the sith.
Revenge allows us to compare Vader and Rey power using one scene:
In Revenge, Darth Vader (the guy in the suit) do one impressive thing as Darth Vader: free himself from the chackles that binded him to a table (and scream Noooooo). To free herself from the chackles binding her to a table in TFA, Rey used mind trick on a stormtrooper (but didn't scream afterwards). Different style but same outcome. A tie.
I believe Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake. To refresh your memory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqpsVWv9AU8
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake.
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
Well, I was trying to be funny (and failed miserably) comparing how those 2 free themselves from shackles.
To expand this comparaison, Vader did make a tiny earthquake, you make a very valid point. But Rey won a telephatic duel vs Kylo when she's interrogated (and we already Kylo has this kind of power because he used it successfully on Poe, if I remember correctly).
It emphasizes the "brute force" of Vader (destroying and smashing stuff) vs the "mind force" of Rey (reading and controlling minds), I guess. They're quite different, hard to tell which one is more powerful though. I yield the point to Vador because I like The Hulk better than Professor Xavier.
About the "how she learnt to do that ?", it's a different debate. Shall we ?
Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake.
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
Well, I was trying to be funny (and failed miserably) comparing how those 2 free themselves from shackles.
To expand this comparaison, Vader did make a tiny earthquake, you make a very valid point. But Rey won a telephatic duel vs Kylo when she's interrogated (and we already Kylo has this kind of power because he used it successfully on Poe, if I remember correctly).
It emphasizes the "brute force" of Vader (destroying and smashing stuff) vs the "mind force" of Rey (reading and controlling minds), I guess. They're quite different, hard to tell which one is more powerful though. I yield the point to Vador because I like The Hulk better than Professor Xavier.
About the "how she learnt to do that ?", it's a different debate. Shall we ?
This was in Force Awakens right? So I don't think Rey knew she was a Jedi. I believe she just felt something inside herself (a power like the force) and she had an urge to convince the first order trooper to let her go (using a mind trick).
This was in Force Awakens right? So I don't think Rey knew she was a Jedi. I believe she just felt something inside herself (a power like the force) and she had an urge to convince the first order trooper to let her go (using a mind trick).
I agree, but I genuinely don't understand where you're getting with this... Do you imply that there is a difference in efficiency between innate and acquired aptitudes ? Because that's another different debate ^^ I'm game if you are.
One thing to mention. I don't know if this has any affect on the debate but the original trilogy was made in the late 1970s to early 1980s. The graphics in the movies might not be as good back then so they might not have been able to show Vader doing really cool moves.
Fair enough. That's why I don't mention the actual battles but the opponents. Capeoira is impressive, more than MMA. People could debate on which one is more efficient in some kind of real fight, I guess it won't necessarely be the one with the cool moves.
Although Vader lost to Luke, Luke is a very powerful Jedi and Vader (in ROTJ) was able to have a pretty decent battle with him.
Stiil, he lost. So he didn't demonstrate his skills.
Vader should be able to choke regular people as easy as old guys because if someone is choking, they can't breathe or do anything else.
Yeah, the old guy thing was part of a joke. I guess not a very good one.
Also, Rey didn't really smash a starship, it looked more like a cargo carrier that was used to carry prisoners.
Fair enough. Still impressive
Rey also had significantly less training than Vader so Vader would be more experienced.
The important when we compare "who's the strongest ?" is what they do, not what they learnt. Vader was more experienced than Luke in ROTJ, he still lost.
Granted, Rey was able to defeat Snoke's guards but, the guards don't know how to wield a lightsaber and, they don't have any force powers to go with their decent weapon skills.
That's true, very valid point. Maybe it was more show than skill on their part. But she also fought alone and outnumbers Palpatine elite guards and won. That's something. The question is: are Palpatine elite guards better than young luke in a fight ? I don't know.
Force Powers: Equal
In the movies: Vador can choke and use his cyberhands as Wonder Woman Bracelets, Rey can shoot lightning, use mind trick, teleport object (only to Kylo, so a little lame) and heal. Both can use telepathy and move stuff. I vote Rey.
Experience: Vader
Agree, but irrelevant
Swordsmanship: Vader by a tiny bit
If you're absolutely sure that Young Luke after an internship in Dagobah is stronger than a group of Palpatine guards. I give you the benefit of the doubt and offer a tie on this one.
I hope I managed to at least give you some doubt considering Rey's overall power in the movies. (A lot of) people may not like it, but Rey is a very, very strong character in the movies (and it's actually why a lot of people didn't like her. Because she was so strong, even stronger than a Skywalker, for no apparent reason). So having her very, very strong in the game is not totally irrelevant. She not as iconic as Vador (by far), and having a strong Vador is totally ok, I agree on this point though.
She also is really strong because she is a Palpatine by blood.
I do believe that Young Luke is stronger than Palpatine's guards.
You make a good argument with the heal and the teleport with Rey having better force powers than Vader. I totally forgot about the part where Rey healed Kylo during the battle on the Death Star ruins.
So having her very, very strong in the game is not totally irrelevant. She not as iconic as Vador (by far), and having a strong Vador is totally ok, I agree on this point though.
Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake.
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
Well, I was trying to be funny (and failed miserably) comparing how those 2 free themselves from shackles.
To expand this comparaison, Vader did make a tiny earthquake, you make a very valid point. But Rey won a telephatic duel vs Kylo when she's interrogated (and we already Kylo has this kind of power because he used it successfully on Poe, if I remember correctly).
It emphasizes the "brute force" of Vader (destroying and smashing stuff) vs the "mind force" of Rey (reading and controlling minds), I guess. They're quite different, hard to tell which one is more powerful though. I yield the point to Vador because I like The Hulk better than Professor Xavier.
About the "how she learnt to do that ?", it's a different debate. Shall we ?
I wouldn't say Vader is just "brute force." He is very tactical about things, its seen in comics etc.
Who likes Proffesor X though?
Very confused as to how she is suddenly able to use Mind tricks. She could've used it on Unkar Plutt (whatever his name is) and gotten a lot of free food. Why didn't she?
Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake.
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
Well, I was trying to be funny (and failed miserably) comparing how those 2 free themselves from shackles.
To expand this comparaison, Vader did make a tiny earthquake, you make a very valid point. But Rey won a telephatic duel vs Kylo when she's interrogated (and we already Kylo has this kind of power because he used it successfully on Poe, if I remember correctly).
It emphasizes the "brute force" of Vader (destroying and smashing stuff) vs the "mind force" of Rey (reading and controlling minds), I guess. They're quite different, hard to tell which one is more powerful though. I yield the point to Vador because I like The Hulk better than Professor Xavier.
About the "how she learnt to do that ?", it's a different debate. Shall we ?
I wouldn't say Vader is just "brute force." He is very tactical about things, its seen in comics etc.
Who likes Proffesor X though?
Very confused as to how she is suddenly able to use Mind tricks. She could've used it on Unkar Plutt (whatever his name is) and gotten a lot of free food. Why didn't she?
We were also arguing about in the movies, not in the comics for Vader. She probably wasn't aware that she had that she could do that yet. Or it is just a plot hole.
One thing to mention. I don't know if this has any affect on the debate but the original trilogy was made in the late 1970s to early 1980s. The graphics in the movies might not be as good back then so they might not have been able to show Vader doing really cool moves.
Fair enough. That's why I don't mention the actual battles but the opponents. Capeoira is impressive, more than MMA. People could debate on which one is more efficient in some kind of real fight, I guess it won't necessarely be the one with the cool moves.
Although Vader lost to Luke, Luke is a very powerful Jedi and Vader (in ROTJ) was able to have a pretty decent battle with him.
Stiil, he lost. So he didn't demonstrate his skills.
Vader should be able to choke regular people as easy as old guys because if someone is choking, they can't breathe or do anything else.
Yeah, the old guy thing was part of a joke. I guess not a very good one.
Also, Rey didn't really smash a starship, it looked more like a cargo carrier that was used to carry prisoners.
Fair enough. Still impressive
Rey also had significantly less training than Vader so Vader would be more experienced.
The important when we compare "who's the strongest ?" is what they do, not what they learnt. Vader was more experienced than Luke in ROTJ, he still lost.
Granted, Rey was able to defeat Snoke's guards but, the guards don't know how to wield a lightsaber and, they don't have any force powers to go with their decent weapon skills.
That's true, very valid point. Maybe it was more show than skill on their part. But she also fought alone and outnumbers Palpatine elite guards and won. That's something. The question is: are Palpatine elite guards better than young luke in a fight ? I don't know.
Force Powers: Equal
In the movies: Vador can choke and use his cyberhands as Wonder Woman Bracelets, Rey can shoot lightning, use mind trick, teleport object (only to Kylo, so a little lame) and heal. Both can use telepathy and move stuff. I vote Rey.
Experience: Vader
Agree, but irrelevant
Swordsmanship: Vader by a tiny bit
If you're absolutely sure that Young Luke after an internship in Dagobah is stronger than a group of Palpatine guards. I give you the benefit of the doubt and offer a tie on this one.
I hope I managed to at least give you some doubt considering Rey's overall power in the movies. (A lot of) people may not like it, but Rey is a very, very strong character in the movies (and it's actually why a lot of people didn't like her. Because she was so strong, even stronger than a Skywalker, for no apparent reason). So having her very, very strong in the game is not totally irrelevant. She not as iconic as Vador (by far), and having a strong Vador is totally ok, I agree on this point though.
She also is really strong because she is a Palpatine by blood.
I do believe that Young Luke is stronger than Palpatine's guards.
You make a good argument with the heal and the teleport with Rey having better force powers than Vader. I totally forgot about the part where Rey healed Kylo during the battle on the Death Star ruins.
So having her very, very strong in the game is not totally irrelevant. She not as iconic as Vador (by far), and having a strong Vador is totally ok, I agree on this point though.
Also agree with this.
I'm ok with the Luke is stronger than Palp guards, that's fair. So basically we agree to say that Vader is better with a sword and Rey better with Force powers.
Did we just finish an argument without calling names or earning some kind of Godwin points ?
Impressive my friend, most impressive. I'll see you around the Holodebate Tables !
This was in Force Awakens right? So I don't think Rey knew she was a Jedi. I believe she just felt something inside herself (a power like the force) and she had an urge to convince the first order trooper to let her go (using a mind trick).
I agree, but I genuinely don't understand where you're getting with this... Do you imply that there is a difference in efficiency between innate and acquired aptitudes ? Because that's another different debate ^^ I'm game if you are.
Ok.
Yes their is a slight difference. The definition of innate is inborn;natural. If the ability is innate, you naturally have that ability so you could use it more efficiently because you already have that ability.
The definition of acquire is to learn or develop a skill, habit, or quality. If the ability is acquired, then you have to learn how to use that ability.
It is easier to make an innate ability efficient while it is harder to make an acquired ability efficient.
One thing to mention. I don't know if this has any affect on the debate but the original trilogy was made in the late 1970s to early 1980s. The graphics in the movies might not be as good back then so they might not have been able to show Vader doing really cool moves.
Fair enough. That's why I don't mention the actual battles but the opponents. Capeoira is impressive, more than MMA. People could debate on which one is more efficient in some kind of real fight, I guess it won't necessarely be the one with the cool moves.
Although Vader lost to Luke, Luke is a very powerful Jedi and Vader (in ROTJ) was able to have a pretty decent battle with him.
Stiil, he lost. So he didn't demonstrate his skills.
Vader should be able to choke regular people as easy as old guys because if someone is choking, they can't breathe or do anything else.
Yeah, the old guy thing was part of a joke. I guess not a very good one.
Also, Rey didn't really smash a starship, it looked more like a cargo carrier that was used to carry prisoners.
Fair enough. Still impressive
Rey also had significantly less training than Vader so Vader would be more experienced.
The important when we compare "who's the strongest ?" is what they do, not what they learnt. Vader was more experienced than Luke in ROTJ, he still lost.
Granted, Rey was able to defeat Snoke's guards but, the guards don't know how to wield a lightsaber and, they don't have any force powers to go with their decent weapon skills.
That's true, very valid point. Maybe it was more show than skill on their part. But she also fought alone and outnumbers Palpatine elite guards and won. That's something. The question is: are Palpatine elite guards better than young luke in a fight ? I don't know.
Force Powers: Equal
In the movies: Vador can choke and use his cyberhands as Wonder Woman Bracelets, Rey can shoot lightning, use mind trick, teleport object (only to Kylo, so a little lame) and heal. Both can use telepathy and move stuff. I vote Rey.
Experience: Vader
Agree, but irrelevant
Swordsmanship: Vader by a tiny bit
If you're absolutely sure that Young Luke after an internship in Dagobah is stronger than a group of Palpatine guards. I give you the benefit of the doubt and offer a tie on this one.
I hope I managed to at least give you some doubt considering Rey's overall power in the movies. (A lot of) people may not like it, but Rey is a very, very strong character in the movies (and it's actually why a lot of people didn't like her. Because she was so strong, even stronger than a Skywalker, for no apparent reason). So having her very, very strong in the game is not totally irrelevant. She not as iconic as Vador (by far), and having a strong Vador is totally ok, I agree on this point though.
She also is really strong because she is a Palpatine by blood.
I do believe that Young Luke is stronger than Palpatine's guards.
You make a good argument with the heal and the teleport with Rey having better force powers than Vader. I totally forgot about the part where Rey healed Kylo during the battle on the Death Star ruins.
So having her very, very strong in the game is not totally irrelevant. She not as iconic as Vador (by far), and having a strong Vador is totally ok, I agree on this point though.
Also agree with this.
Did we just finish an argument without calling names or earning some kind of Godwin points ?
Impressive my friend, most impressive. I'll see you around the Holodebate Tables !
Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake.
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
Well, I was trying to be funny (and failed miserably) comparing how those 2 free themselves from shackles.
To expand this comparaison, Vader did make a tiny earthquake, you make a very valid point. But Rey won a telephatic duel vs Kylo when she's interrogated (and we already Kylo has this kind of power because he used it successfully on Poe, if I remember correctly).
It emphasizes the "brute force" of Vader (destroying and smashing stuff) vs the "mind force" of Rey (reading and controlling minds), I guess. They're quite different, hard to tell which one is more powerful though. I yield the point to Vador because I like The Hulk better than Professor Xavier.
About the "how she learnt to do that ?", it's a different debate. Shall we ?
I wouldn't say Vader is just "brute force." He is very tactical about things, its seen in comics etc.
Who likes Proffesor X though?
Very confused as to how she is suddenly able to use Mind tricks. She could've used it on Unkar Plutt (whatever his name is) and gotten a lot of free food. Why didn't she?
We were also arguing about in the movies, not in the comics for Vader. She probably wasn't aware that she had that she could do that yet. Or it is just a plot hole.
But why just movies? Movies don't show a lot in terms of powers, it's just plot, plot, plot. Bam, the end. Nothing to explain how powerful someone really is. Sure they show some powers, but not a lot. Take Luke in the movies. In the movies he's a pretty powerful character. In Legends he is the most powerful Jedi to ever exist. Plus this is Star Wars, so we should take into account all relevant sources.
She could only do the mind trick because it just had to be that way for the movie to go on.
Very confused as to how she is suddenly able to use Mind tricks. She could've used it on Unkar Plutt (whatever his name is) and gotten a lot of free food. Why didn't she?
So that's a different debate and I'm happy to oblige.
'Can't say why she didn't use Mind trick in the movie before. Maybe she didn't know she had this kind of powers and realized it during the interrogation scene when she was able to read Kylo's mind. But it's only an educated guess.
Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake.
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
Well, I was trying to be funny (and failed miserably) comparing how those 2 free themselves from shackles.
To expand this comparaison, Vader did make a tiny earthquake, you make a very valid point. But Rey won a telephatic duel vs Kylo when she's interrogated (and we already Kylo has this kind of power because he used it successfully on Poe, if I remember correctly).
It emphasizes the "brute force" of Vader (destroying and smashing stuff) vs the "mind force" of Rey (reading and controlling minds), I guess. They're quite different, hard to tell which one is more powerful though. I yield the point to Vador because I like The Hulk better than Professor Xavier.
About the "how she learnt to do that ?", it's a different debate. Shall we ?
I wouldn't say Vader is just "brute force." He is very tactical about things, its seen in comics etc.
Who likes Proffesor X though?
Very confused as to how she is suddenly able to use Mind tricks. She could've used it on Unkar Plutt (whatever his name is) and gotten a lot of free food. Why didn't she?
We were also arguing about in the movies, not in the comics for Vader. She probably wasn't aware that she had that she could do that yet. Or it is just a plot hole.
But why just movies? Movies don't show a lot in terms of powers, it's just plot, plot, plot. Bam, the end. Nothing to explain how powerful someone really is. Sure they show some powers, but not a lot. Take Luke in the movies. In the movies he's a pretty powerful character. In Legends he is the most powerful Jedi to ever exist. Plus this is Star Wars, so we should take into account all relevant sources.
She could only do the mind trick because it just had to be that way for the movie to go on.
When I was talking about movies, I meant that in my debate with Starslayer, we were only talking about the movies.
I also have no idea why Rey wouldn't be able to use mind trick against Unkar to get free food.
My bad Starslayer, I didn't read your post responding to Ggdjqjchsabjdj because I was writing a response.
It is easier to make an innate ability efficient while it is harder to make an acquired ability efficient.
I'm on board with your conclusion, with a but. I thought you meant "Vador is stronger because he learnt with the best while Rey is just naturally op", implying an acquired ability is "stronger" than a innate ability. Because if so, I don't understand how you get there from your conclusion above...
bruh who likes rey. Vader is super powerful. I mean he was Darth Vader in Revenge of the sith.
Revenge allows us to compare Vader and Rey power using one scene:
In Revenge, Darth Vader (the guy in the suit) do one impressive thing as Darth Vader: free himself from the chackles that binded him to a table (and scream Noooooo). To free herself from the chackles binding her to a table in TFA, Rey used mind trick on a stormtrooper (but didn't scream afterwards). Different style but same outcome. A tie.
I believe Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake. To refresh your memory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqpsVWv9AU8
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
Vader also made a thunderstorm shake all of Mustafar while creating his lightsaber in the Vol2 of his comic series.
Nerf Incoming, 99.9% chance. Not operating as intended (it was not intended to make the $$$ players angry). Don't waste the gear if you have not already. They will refund the zeta but not the gear.
Nerf Incoming, 99.9% chance. Not operating as intended (it was not intended to make the $$$ players angry). Don't waste the gear if you have not already. They will refund the zeta but not the gear.
Will that also be the case for Rey users ? I heard that $$$ players are angry that Kylo is autoing every game mode and still get buffed every weeks meanwhile Rey is definitively less efficient
I clearly would accept to give back my Rey for Kylo.
It is easier to make an innate ability efficient while it is harder to make an acquired ability efficient.
I'm on board with your conclusion, with a but. I thought you meant "Vador is stronger because he learnt with the best while Rey is just naturally op", implying an acquired ability is "stronger" than a innate ability. Because if so, I don't understand how you get there from your conclusion above...
Even if you're comparing only the movies, you have to include evidence from the prequels for Vader's skill with a lightsaber.
Anakin beats not only dooku, one of the best duelist of all time as show by him easily taking out both Anakin and Obiwan in ep 2, but also has an epic duel against obiwan where he shows considerable skill.
Granted that is pre-suit. But the knowledge doesn't go away. He would be more limited by the suit but the skill is still there. He easily toyed with Luke in ESB and lost to Luke in Jedi due to Luke's sheer power when he gave into his anger.
So the movies if you include the prequels, which are still George Lucas Star Wars show Vader was skilled.
Rey not so much. If you watch the throne room scene in the last jedi, the only conclusion I come to is the guards are not that skilled. There is one move in particular, if you watch, one guard seems to intentionally swing above her head because she failed to block. In another instance they made a weapon disappear in post to make Rey not die.
That can be explained by bad choreography but it is still in the film and as is it shows terrible lightsaber skills.
The only one we see Rey best with a lightsaber is Kylo. But what proof do we have that he is a competent duelist? We see that he has force powers that are strong sure but he never fuels anyone with shown competence. Just Rey. In the Luke flashback, he uses his power to bring down the hut and no duel takes place.
In Ep 9 Rey and Kylo only duel each other and Rey just blocks to kill Ep. I was actually pretty disappointed with that as an ending. Pretty anticlimactic.
But it is entirely possible that both Rey and Kylo are terrible duelist but very powerful. In ep 9 she does show some skill in the training scene so by then she's probably at least competent but nothing in that indicates she's a master duelist. In fact that is unlikely since she had only a year to train and wasn't very good to start.
Even if you're comparing only the movies, you have to include evidence from the prequels for Vader's skill with a lightsaber.
Anakin beats not only dooku, one of the best duelist of all time as show by him easily taking out both Anakin and Obiwan in ep 2, but also has an epic duel against obiwan where he shows considerable skill.
Granted that is pre-suit. But the knowledge doesn't go away. He would be more limited by the suit but the skill is still there. He easily toyed with Luke in ESB and lost to Luke in Jedi due to Luke's sheer power when he gave into his anger.
So the movies if you include the prequels, which are still George Lucas Star Wars show Vader was skilled.
Rey not so much. If you watch the throne room scene in the last jedi, the only conclusion I come to is the guards are not that skilled. There is one move in particular, if you watch, one guard seems to intentionally swing above her head because she failed to block. In another instance they made a weapon disappear in post to make Rey not die.
That can be explained by bad choreography but it is still in the film and as is it shows terrible lightsaber skills.
The only one we see Rey best with a lightsaber is Kylo. But what proof do we have that he is a competent duelist? We see that he has force powers that are strong sure but he never fuels anyone with shown competence. Just Rey. In the Luke flashback, he uses his power to bring down the hut and no duel takes place.
In Ep 9 Rey and Kylo only duel each other and Rey just blocks to kill Ep. I was actually pretty disappointed with that as an ending. Pretty anticlimactic.
But it is entirely possible that both Rey and Kylo are terrible duelist but very powerful. In ep 9 she does show some skill in the training scene so by then she's probably at least competent but nothing in that indicates she's a master duelist. In fact that is unlikely since she had only a year to train and wasn't very good to start.
If you include pre suit, Vader is definitely better. In the suit, it is kind of a toss up. Vader would be stronger with a lightsaber but Rey is stronger with the force.
Even if you're comparing only the movies, you have to include evidence from the prequels for Vader's skill with a lightsaber.
Anakin beats not only dooku, one of the best duelist of all time as show by him easily taking out both Anakin and Obiwan in ep 2, but also has an epic duel against obiwan where he shows considerable skill.
Granted that is pre-suit. But the knowledge doesn't go away. He would be more limited by the suit but the skill is still there. He easily toyed with Luke in ESB and lost to Luke in Jedi due to Luke's sheer power when he gave into his anger.
So the movies if you include the prequels, which are still George Lucas Star Wars show Vader was skilled.
Well, Master12345 already convinced me than Vader was a better swordman than Rey, so I won't argue there
But I disagree with the "Vador is Anakin" argument. Even if the knowledge doesn't go away, "he is more machine than man" and his body payed a huge toll during his first duel versus Obi-Wan (this first duel makes the fight vs Obi-Wan in ANH sooo funny, for me at least. 2 old guys, one with plastic hips and more, the other a crazy old wanderer living in a caban in the woods (sorry desert), going at each other at turtle speed to resolve a 20 years grudge, that's just good TV). So we can't know for sure how good a swordman he still is. I know it's not exactly the same (because The Force, all that), but fencers stop competition when they reach a certain age, because knowledge alone isn't enough, they need the body. Heck, maybe that's why Yoda didn't draw his lightsaber and join the fight against Vader and Palp. 880 years is fine, but 900 years is just too old ^^
That's why I prefer only judging from the fights we saw in the suit. Fair ?
Even if you're comparing only the movies, you have to include evidence from the prequels for Vader's skill with a lightsaber.
Anakin beats not only dooku, one of the best duelist of all time as show by him easily taking out both Anakin and Obiwan in ep 2, but also has an epic duel against obiwan where he shows considerable skill.
Granted that is pre-suit. But the knowledge doesn't go away. He would be more limited by the suit but the skill is still there. He easily toyed with Luke in ESB and lost to Luke in Jedi due to Luke's sheer power when he gave into his anger.
So the movies if you include the prequels, which are still George Lucas Star Wars show Vader was skilled.
Well, Master12345 already convinced me than Vader was a better swordman than Rey, so I won't argue there
But I disagree with the "Vador is Anakin" argument. Even if the knowledge doesn't go away, "he is more machine than man" and his body payed a huge toll during his first duel versus Obi-Wan (this first duel makes the fight vs Obi-Wan in ANH sooo funny, for me at least. 2 old guys, one with plastic hips and more, the other a crazy old wanderer living in a caban in the woods (sorry desert), going at each other at turtle speed to resolve a 20 years grudge, that's just good TV). So we can't know for sure how good a swordman he still is. I know it's not exactly the same (because The Force, all that), but fencers stop competition when they reach a certain age, because knowledge alone isn't enough, they need the body. Heck, maybe that's why Yoda didn't draw his lightsaber and join the fight against Vader and Palp. 880 years is fine, but 900 years is just too old ^^
That's why I prefer only judging from the fights we saw in the suit. Fair ?
The his body can't do those moves arguement is fair. But the knowledge is still there. So against an opponent without skill he would still dominate as shown with him toying with Luke in ESB.
Vader vs presuit anakin is probably anakin every time. But the skill in the prequels is still relevant. And vader wasn't that old. Maybe 50 by ep 6. He was just limited by the suit.
The fight with obiwan was before they really figured out lightsaber combat for the film's so I give it a little more grace than the bad skills shown in the sequels.
If you analyse how Rey fights Kylo in TRoS, she isn’t actually fighting with a saber, she is just swinging it. Not a very good duelist.
Force powers, what force powers has Rey shown? If I remember correctly:
Mind trick
Lightning
Healing
Skype calling (with objects)
And communicating with the dead Jedi (don’t know what it’s called)
Vader’s force powers: https://www.quora.com/What-force-powers-does-Darth-Vader-Anakin-Skywalker-have
Granted, it’s also Anakin’s abilities, but most of the powers there Vader would not have lost after his duel with Obi-Wan.
This also takes into account comics, if you were wondering.
The fight with obiwan was before they really figured out lightsaber combat for the film's so I give it a little more grace than the bad skills shown in the sequels.
My favourite samurai movie is Zatoichi from Kitano. I find this kind of non-acrobatic combat quite impressive and have nothing bad to say about the style of the swordfights we see in the OT. It's not as Fast nor Furious than Prequels/Sequels, but there is some kind of grace in it, I'm with you there. Still, I like the story it's telling, even if it's non-intentional. 2 young jedis at their prime jumping around in an epic volcano fight struggling to fight each other without pulling a muscle a couple of decades later, when time takes its toll.
Off-topic, just an opinion: I actually like swordfights in OT, Prequels and Sequels, because they all have a very specific style and vibe. OT is samurai, grace, one blow is enough. Prequels in Opera, a well played choregraphy taking full advantage of the force powers to produce impressive ballets. Sequels are Intense, where the heroin never wielded a lightsaber before and compensate her lack of skills with pure passion and agression, allowing fights of great intensity and violence. And it's true to the stories. OT: old guy vs young man trained by a couple of old guys, mind over matter style. Prequels: warrior-monks trained everyday during years Shaolin-style, allowing impressive display of all sort of skills. Sequels, Girl fueled by a rage inside, gift from granpa and years of bitterness, using her laserblade as a big stick with pretty lights.
Replies
Well actually... Vader unmasked was Anakin!
Move up a few post from yours, you'll find true internet happiness.
Rey would beat Vader, her plot armour is better and Lucasfilm have decided she is the best Mary Sue ever.
I believe Vader also crushed the droids around him. He made the entire area shake. To refresh your memory.
Rey didn't display any real power except being able to use a mind trick, which might I ask how she learnt to do that?
To expand this comparaison, Vader did make a tiny earthquake, you make a very valid point. But Rey won a telephatic duel vs Kylo when she's interrogated (and we already Kylo has this kind of power because he used it successfully on Poe, if I remember correctly).
It emphasizes the "brute force" of Vader (destroying and smashing stuff) vs the "mind force" of Rey (reading and controlling minds), I guess. They're quite different, hard to tell which one is more powerful though. I yield the point to Vador because I like The Hulk better than Professor Xavier.
About the "how she learnt to do that ?", it's a different debate. Shall we ?
This was in Force Awakens right? So I don't think Rey knew she was a Jedi. I believe she just felt something inside herself (a power like the force) and she had an urge to convince the first order trooper to let her go (using a mind trick).
I agree, but I genuinely don't understand where you're getting with this... Do you imply that there is a difference in efficiency between innate and acquired aptitudes ? Because that's another different debate ^^ I'm game if you are.
She also is really strong because she is a Palpatine by blood.
I do believe that Young Luke is stronger than Palpatine's guards.
You make a good argument with the heal and the teleport with Rey having better force powers than Vader. I totally forgot about the part where Rey healed Kylo during the battle on the Death Star ruins.
Also agree with this.
Who likes Proffesor X though?
Very confused as to how she is suddenly able to use Mind tricks. She could've used it on Unkar Plutt (whatever his name is) and gotten a lot of free food. Why didn't she?
We were also arguing about in the movies, not in the comics for Vader. She probably wasn't aware that she had that she could do that yet. Or it is just a plot hole.
I'm ok with the Luke is stronger than Palp guards, that's fair. So basically we agree to say that Vader is better with a sword and Rey better with Force powers.
Did we just finish an argument without calling names or earning some kind of Godwin points ?
Impressive my friend, most impressive. I'll see you around the Holodebate Tables !
Ok.
Yes their is a slight difference. The definition of innate is inborn;natural. If the ability is innate, you naturally have that ability so you could use it more efficiently because you already have that ability.
The definition of acquire is to learn or develop a skill, habit, or quality. If the ability is acquired, then you have to learn how to use that ability.
It is easier to make an innate ability efficient while it is harder to make an acquired ability efficient.
Yes we did.
But why just movies? Movies don't show a lot in terms of powers, it's just plot, plot, plot. Bam, the end. Nothing to explain how powerful someone really is. Sure they show some powers, but not a lot. Take Luke in the movies. In the movies he's a pretty powerful character. In Legends he is the most powerful Jedi to ever exist. Plus this is Star Wars, so we should take into account all relevant sources.
She could only do the mind trick because it just had to be that way for the movie to go on.
So that's a different debate and I'm happy to oblige.
'Can't say why she didn't use Mind trick in the movie before. Maybe she didn't know she had this kind of powers and realized it during the interrogation scene when she was able to read Kylo's mind. But it's only an educated guess.
When I was talking about movies, I meant that in my debate with Starslayer, we were only talking about the movies.
I also have no idea why Rey wouldn't be able to use mind trick against Unkar to get free food.
My bad Starslayer, I didn't read your post responding to Ggdjqjchsabjdj because I was writing a response.
I'm on board with your conclusion, with a but. I thought you meant "Vador is stronger because he learnt with the best while Rey is just naturally op", implying an acquired ability is "stronger" than a innate ability. Because if so, I don't understand how you get there from your conclusion above...
Vader also made a thunderstorm shake all of Mustafar while creating his lightsaber in the Vol2 of his comic series.
You have to r3 him for jedi luke anyway.
Will that also be the case for Rey users ? I heard that $$$ players are angry that Kylo is autoing every game mode and still get buffed every weeks meanwhile Rey is definitively less efficient
I clearly would accept to give back my Rey for Kylo.
If they do it for Vader they should do it for Rey
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Anakin beats not only dooku, one of the best duelist of all time as show by him easily taking out both Anakin and Obiwan in ep 2, but also has an epic duel against obiwan where he shows considerable skill.
Granted that is pre-suit. But the knowledge doesn't go away. He would be more limited by the suit but the skill is still there. He easily toyed with Luke in ESB and lost to Luke in Jedi due to Luke's sheer power when he gave into his anger.
So the movies if you include the prequels, which are still George Lucas Star Wars show Vader was skilled.
Rey not so much. If you watch the throne room scene in the last jedi, the only conclusion I come to is the guards are not that skilled. There is one move in particular, if you watch, one guard seems to intentionally swing above her head because she failed to block. In another instance they made a weapon disappear in post to make Rey not die.
That can be explained by bad choreography but it is still in the film and as is it shows terrible lightsaber skills.
The only one we see Rey best with a lightsaber is Kylo. But what proof do we have that he is a competent duelist? We see that he has force powers that are strong sure but he never fuels anyone with shown competence. Just Rey. In the Luke flashback, he uses his power to bring down the hut and no duel takes place.
In Ep 9 Rey and Kylo only duel each other and Rey just blocks to kill Ep. I was actually pretty disappointed with that as an ending. Pretty anticlimactic.
But it is entirely possible that both Rey and Kylo are terrible duelist but very powerful. In ep 9 she does show some skill in the training scene so by then she's probably at least competent but nothing in that indicates she's a master duelist. In fact that is unlikely since she had only a year to train and wasn't very good to start.
If you include pre suit, Vader is definitely better. In the suit, it is kind of a toss up. Vader would be stronger with a lightsaber but Rey is stronger with the force.
Well, Master12345 already convinced me than Vader was a better swordman than Rey, so I won't argue there
But I disagree with the "Vador is Anakin" argument. Even if the knowledge doesn't go away, "he is more machine than man" and his body payed a huge toll during his first duel versus Obi-Wan (this first duel makes the fight vs Obi-Wan in ANH sooo funny, for me at least. 2 old guys, one with plastic hips and more, the other a crazy old wanderer living in a caban in the woods (sorry desert), going at each other at turtle speed to resolve a 20 years grudge, that's just good TV). So we can't know for sure how good a swordman he still is. I know it's not exactly the same (because The Force, all that), but fencers stop competition when they reach a certain age, because knowledge alone isn't enough, they need the body. Heck, maybe that's why Yoda didn't draw his lightsaber and join the fight against Vader and Palp. 880 years is fine, but 900 years is just too old ^^
That's why I prefer only judging from the fights we saw in the suit. Fair ?
The his body can't do those moves arguement is fair. But the knowledge is still there. So against an opponent without skill he would still dominate as shown with him toying with Luke in ESB.
Vader vs presuit anakin is probably anakin every time. But the skill in the prequels is still relevant. And vader wasn't that old. Maybe 50 by ep 6. He was just limited by the suit.
The fight with obiwan was before they really figured out lightsaber combat for the film's so I give it a little more grace than the bad skills shown in the sequels.
Force powers, what force powers has Rey shown? If I remember correctly:
Mind trick
Lightning
Healing
Skype calling (with objects)
And communicating with the dead Jedi (don’t know what it’s called)
Vader’s force powers:
https://www.quora.com/What-force-powers-does-Darth-Vader-Anakin-Skywalker-have
Granted, it’s also Anakin’s abilities, but most of the powers there Vader would not have lost after his duel with Obi-Wan.
This also takes into account comics, if you were wondering.
Off-topic, just an opinion: I actually like swordfights in OT, Prequels and Sequels, because they all have a very specific style and vibe. OT is samurai, grace, one blow is enough. Prequels in Opera, a well played choregraphy taking full advantage of the force powers to produce impressive ballets. Sequels are Intense, where the heroin never wielded a lightsaber before and compensate her lack of skills with pure passion and agression, allowing fights of great intensity and violence. And it's true to the stories. OT: old guy vs young man trained by a couple of old guys, mind over matter style. Prequels: warrior-monks trained everyday during years Shaolin-style, allowing impressive display of all sort of skills. Sequels, Girl fueled by a rage inside, gift from granpa and years of bitterness, using her laserblade as a big stick with pretty lights.