So what exactly is the problem with Rose ... ?

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  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    HTWarrior wrote: »
    I can only speak for myself: For me its never been about the character of Rose or the actress Kelly Tran in particular. However she (and Holdo) were the main additions to the SW-universe in TLJ which imao was the worst piece of SW film ever recorded. Dont wanna list all the disapointments this film entailed cuz it makes me nausious. It just was the very first time in my life that I sat in a cinema watching a SW-movie and got impatient out of boredom hoping it would end soon. So I guess after watching many people who think similarly about TLJ focussed their frustration towards Rose and Holdo although they both played only secondary roles as to why TLJ was as bad as it was.

    My resentment was always aimed at Ryan Johnson (and even to him only partially given he also directed my favourite episode of "Breaking Bad")

    100% but Johnson also directed "the fly" episode of Breaking Bad too, lets not forget that.

    Having said all that, I really liked Johnson's "Knives Out" a standalone movie which is a murder mystery is better suited to his style of directing in regard to "subverting expectations" compared to a middle movie of a trilogy that is part of a franchise with established lore, lol.

    Is he officially dropped in regard to future star wars projects? I hope so.
  • TVF
    25694 posts Member
    Won't someone please think of the horse.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Necro
  • Boo wrote: »
    She also crashes her speeder derailing Fin's where his character grew to the point of fully facing the First Order head-on, risking to sacrifice his life for the survival of the Resistance, then forces a kiss on the poor man. Fin went on to do essentially nothing but comic relief for the next movie - he might as well have had a glorious death saving his friends and potentially the galaxy.

    I take it you didn't read the article I linked to earlier in the thread that addresses this moment in the movie and just how we take Finn's macho rubbish for granted but Rose saving him is somehow seen as the bad thing?
    Finn is directly ordered not to sacrifice himself. Finn ignores this and disobeys a direct order. It is pointed out that Finn's actions will have no effect. Finn ignores this and chooses to kill himself for no effect. It's NOT a noble sacrifice if it doesn't have any positive benefits. And it doesn't so it isn't.
    So Finn disobeys orders, is going to through his life away for no benefit and large sections of the audience think that's fine.
    Rose stops him and saves him and everyone hates her for it?

    Um ...
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    Stenun wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    She also crashes her speeder derailing Fin's where his character grew to the point of fully facing the First Order head-on, risking to sacrifice his life for the survival of the Resistance, then forces a kiss on the poor man. Fin went on to do essentially nothing but comic relief for the next movie - he might as well have had a glorious death saving his friends and potentially the galaxy.

    I take it you didn't read the article I linked to earlier in the thread that addresses this moment in the movie and just how we take Finn's macho rubbish for granted but Rose saving him is somehow seen as the bad thing?
    Finn is directly ordered not to sacrifice himself. Finn ignores this and disobeys a direct order. It is pointed out that Finn's actions will have no effect. Finn ignores this and chooses to kill himself for no effect. It's NOT a noble sacrifice if it doesn't have any positive benefits. And it doesn't so it isn't.
    So Finn disobeys orders, is going to through his life away for no benefit and large sections of the audience think that's fine.
    Rose stops him and saves him and everyone hates her for it?

    Um ...

    It would have stopped the beam breaking down the doors and provided an escape opportunity - no one knew Luke's hologram would show up and provide a distraction, so Finn sacrificing himself to give the resistance that opportunity was actually very noble.

    Finn literally has nothing to do after this point in the trilogy - he was reduced to a sidekick, comic relief character in TROS - that is the real waste.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    She also crashes her speeder derailing Fin's where his character grew to the point of fully facing the First Order head-on, risking to sacrifice his life for the survival of the Resistance, then forces a kiss on the poor man. Fin went on to do essentially nothing but comic relief for the next movie - he might as well have had a glorious death saving his friends and potentially the galaxy.

    I take it you didn't read the article I linked to earlier in the thread that addresses this moment in the movie and just how we take Finn's macho rubbish for granted but Rose saving him is somehow seen as the bad thing?
    Finn is directly ordered not to sacrifice himself. Finn ignores this and disobeys a direct order. It is pointed out that Finn's actions will have no effect. Finn ignores this and chooses to kill himself for no effect. It's NOT a noble sacrifice if it doesn't have any positive benefits. And it doesn't so it isn't.
    So Finn disobeys orders, is going to through his life away for no benefit and large sections of the audience think that's fine.
    Rose stops him and saves him and everyone hates her for it?

    Um ...

    It would have stopped the beam breaking down the doors and provided an escape opportunity - no one knew Luke's hologram would show up and provide a distraction, so Finn sacrificing himself to give the resistance that opportunity was actually very noble.

    Finn literally has nothing to do after this point in the trilogy - he was reduced to a sidekick, comic relief character in TROS - that is the real waste.

    No, it wouldn't. This is pointed out in the film. His suicide run would not have achieved his intended goals.
    It was Finn once again trying to find a quick way out, this time under the guise of an alleged "noble sacrifice" despite it being pointed out that it wouldn't have worked. Rose SAVES him and teaches him to NOT always be looking for a quick way out.

    And as for his representation in ROS, you can hardly blame that on Rose - she didn't know the writers were going to do him a massive disservice. :smile:
  • Technically if Finn did sacrifice himself it would have given the Resistance time to escape and Luke would have still been alive. Rose killed Luke. Way to go Rose!!
  • Stenun wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    She also crashes her speeder derailing Fin's where his character grew to the point of fully facing the First Order head-on, risking to sacrifice his life for the survival of the Resistance, then forces a kiss on the poor man. Fin went on to do essentially nothing but comic relief for the next movie - he might as well have had a glorious death saving his friends and potentially the galaxy.

    I take it you didn't read the article I linked to earlier in the thread that addresses this moment in the movie and just how we take Finn's macho rubbish for granted but Rose saving him is somehow seen as the bad thing?
    Finn is directly ordered not to sacrifice himself. Finn ignores this and disobeys a direct order. It is pointed out that Finn's actions will have no effect. Finn ignores this and chooses to kill himself for no effect. It's NOT a noble sacrifice if it doesn't have any positive benefits. And it doesn't so it isn't.
    So Finn disobeys orders, is going to through his life away for no benefit and large sections of the audience think that's fine.
    Rose stops him and saves him and everyone hates her for it?

    Um ...

    It would have stopped the beam breaking down the doors and provided an escape opportunity - no one knew Luke's hologram would show up and provide a distraction, so Finn sacrificing himself to give the resistance that opportunity was actually very noble.

    Finn literally has nothing to do after this point in the trilogy - he was reduced to a sidekick, comic relief character in TROS - that is the real waste.

    No, it wouldn't. This is pointed out in the film. His suicide run would not have achieved his intended goals.
    It was Finn once again trying to find a quick way out, this time under the guise of an alleged "noble sacrifice" despite it being pointed out that it wouldn't have worked. Rose SAVES him and teaches him to NOT always be looking for a quick way out.

    And as for his representation in ROS, you can hardly blame that on Rose - she didn't know the writers were going to do him a massive disservice. :smile:

    I don't think many are blaming kelly Marie tran for the bad writing in the sequel trilogy.

    As for whether Finn's sacrifice would stop the weapon, it's hard to say since it is stopped. Honestly, I doubt Rian Johnson thought that much into it. Most likely it was done for the fact that it would surprise audiences.

    Unfortunately there is so much in that movie that is just in there for the sake of a twist, regardless of how it breaks the lore or forces them to bring palpatine back in the next movie because they kill the big bad in the middle movie.

    In the movie Finn seems to think that it will stop the weapon and Rose doesn't. Finn is used as the character to provide exposition on what the weapon is so it is safe to assume that he should know what he's talking about at least to an equal extent as Rose would.

    So you can't conclude from the movie that Finn's sacrifice would have been for nothing, just that Rose believed it would be.

    Thise that think Finn should have been allowed to sacrifice himself, are probably assuming it would be a Randy Quaid moment from Independence Day not a Finn dies for nothing moment. Though with Rian Johnson, who knows.

    Personally, I have more issue with the entire premise of the movie than with this scene. For the movie to get to this point we have to believe the following.

    1. The first order is stupid enough to fire it's big gun on the base that is going nowhere before the ship that can escape.

    2. More advanced bombers aren't available even though we have already seen them in movies that take place 40 years ago in universe. You can have the Resistance be an underdog without making it ridiculous.

    3. The first order has dozens of star destroyers that aren't low on fuel. Yet we are to believe they can't keep up with one ship that is low on fuel. Ever hear of a micro jump. Should be simple enough to cut them off and finish them. We are supposed to believe that they rule the galaxy now but they are too incompetent to cut off a couple of ships so they just follow for a day.

    4. The whole plan of the Resistance is to sneak down to another planet on ships that have no cloaking technology (cloaking has been visually displayed in the clone wars and it does visually hide the ship and in the last jedi they are plainly visible) and we are to believe this is a good plan because Leia says the first order are too stupid to scan for little ships. The transports are hyperspace capable since they are the same class as the ones that escape both in ESB. So wouldn't it make more sense to launch the transports and go to hyperspace in like twelve different directions assuming they can't track them all?

    5. Then they break hyperspace with the introduction of hyperspace ramming because Rian wrote himself into a corner. And if it didn't break the lore, then why'd they have to recon in the next movie.


    So the whole reason they are on Krait is because neither side has a brain between them. That is a far greater travesty than Finn sacrificing himself or not.

    If I have to think that no one would be that stupid multiple times in the movie, then that should not be the story. This should have been found in the first script reading and fixed at that point. But we all know that the leadership didn't care about consistency or much of anything. The only real person to blame is Kathleen Kennedy. She was in charge and allowed this dumpster fire of a movie to happen.

  • LordDirt wrote: »
    Technically if Finn did sacrifice himself it would have given the Resistance time to escape and Luke would have still been alive. Rose killed Luke. Way to go Rose!!

    No.
    I'll repeat; it is pointed out in the movie that Finn's sacrifice would have achieved nothing. It would not have allowed the Resistance time to escape. It would have been a meaningless death.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Technically if Finn did sacrifice himself it would have given the Resistance time to escape and Luke would have still been alive. Rose killed Luke. Way to go Rose!!

    No.
    I'll repeat; it is pointed out in the movie that Finn's sacrifice would have achieved nothing. It would not have allowed the Resistance time to escape. It would have been a meaningless death.

    That is your interpretation. Please point out explicitly in the movie where it states that Finn was doomed to fail. Rose believes it would but Finn believes it will succeed so that is mixed evidence.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Technically if Finn did sacrifice himself it would have given the Resistance time to escape and Luke would have still been alive. Rose killed Luke. Way to go Rose!!

    No.
    I'll repeat; it is pointed out in the movie that Finn's sacrifice would have achieved nothing. It would not have allowed the Resistance time to escape. It would have been a meaningless death.

    The FO would have nothing to break to door down with. By the time they had another "ram" delivered the Resistance would have been long gone.
  • The only real person to blame is Kathleen Kennedy. She was in charge and allowed this dumpster fire of a movie to happen.

    The real dumpster fire was Episode 9
  • LordDirt wrote: »
    The only real person to blame is Kathleen Kennedy. She was in charge and allowed this dumpster fire of a movie to happen.

    The real dumpster fire was Episode 9

    I still dislike ep 8 more. But the whole sequel trilogy was a dumpster fire. At least in ep 9 I wasn't brought out of the story nearly as much because I couldn't believe that a character or faction could be that stupid.

    A lot of the issues with ep 9 are from trying to make a villain because Rian Johnson left them with none (or just kylo who has already been embarrass by Rey in a lightsaber duel and embarrassed again by Luke in the last jedi so it's hard to take him seriously at this point) but they still needed to have one more movie.

    But there are other issues that are dumb in ep 9 as well.

    1. Hyperspace skipping makes zero sense. It looks cool but really breaks the lore.

    2. The whole 16hr time limit is dumb and serves no purpose.

    3. The lightsaber fights are just not that great visually. I can get past this if I just assume that neither Rey or Kylo know how to fight competently with a lightsaber. But this is an issue throughout the sequels.

    4. The final fight is very anticlimactic. Palp should have at least made it harder to kill him. Maybe bring in the force ghosts or have an epic fight or something.

    5. The knife lining up part is dumb.


  • Please point out explicitly in the movie where it states that Finn was doomed to fail. Rose believes it would but Finn believes it will succeed so that is mixed evidence.


    POE: The cannon is charged! It's a suicide run! All craft, pull away!
    FINN: No! I'm almost there!
    POE: Retreat, Finn! That's an order!
    ROSE: Finn? It's too late! Don't do this!
    FINN: No! I won't let them win!
    ROSE: No! Finn, listen to Poe! We have to retreat!

    It's not just Rose's opinion, it's Poe's too. Finn's suicide run was pointless.
  • LordDirt
    1681 posts Member
    edited September 28
    Ironic considering how many Resistance fighters he got killed in all three movies. He might as well have been a FO spy.
  • LordDirt wrote: »
    The only real person to blame is Kathleen Kennedy. She was in charge and allowed this dumpster fire of a movie to happen.

    The real dumpster fire was Episode 9

    I still dislike ep 8 more. But the whole sequel trilogy was a dumpster fire. At least in ep 9 I wasn't brought out of the story nearly as much because I couldn't believe that a character or faction could be that stupid.

    A lot of the issues with ep 9 are from trying to make a villain because Rian Johnson left them with none (or just kylo who has already been embarrass by Rey in a lightsaber duel and embarrassed again by Luke in the last jedi so it's hard to take him seriously at this point) but they still needed to have one more movie.

    But there are other issues that are dumb in ep 9 as well.

    1. Hyperspace skipping makes zero sense. It looks cool but really breaks the lore.

    2. The whole 16hr time limit is dumb and serves no purpose.

    3. The lightsaber fights are just not that great visually. I can get past this if I just assume that neither Rey or Kylo know how to fight competently with a lightsaber. But this is an issue throughout the sequels.

    4. The final fight is very anticlimactic. Palp should have at least made it harder to kill him. Maybe bring in the force ghosts or have an epic fight or something.

    5. The knife lining up part is dumb.


    I could go one for a loooooooooong time with all the issues in 9.
  • LordDirt wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    The only real person to blame is Kathleen Kennedy. She was in charge and allowed this dumpster fire of a movie to happen.

    The real dumpster fire was Episode 9

    I still dislike ep 8 more. But the whole sequel trilogy was a dumpster fire. At least in ep 9 I wasn't brought out of the story nearly as much because I couldn't believe that a character or faction could be that stupid.

    A lot of the issues with ep 9 are from trying to make a villain because Rian Johnson left them with none (or just kylo who has already been embarrass by Rey in a lightsaber duel and embarrassed again by Luke in the last jedi so it's hard to take him seriously at this point) but they still needed to have one more movie.

    But there are other issues that are dumb in ep 9 as well.

    1. Hyperspace skipping makes zero sense. It looks cool but really breaks the lore.

    2. The whole 16hr time limit is dumb and serves no purpose.

    3. The lightsaber fights are just not that great visually. I can get past this if I just assume that neither Rey or Kylo know how to fight competently with a lightsaber. But this is an issue throughout the sequels.

    4. The final fight is very anticlimactic. Palp should have at least made it harder to kill him. Maybe bring in the force ghosts or have an epic fight or something.

    5. The knife lining up part is dumb.


    I could go one for a loooooooooong time with all the issues in 9.

    Yes I'm sure you could. Same with the sequel trilogy as a whole. But for me at least, most of the issues with ep 9 could be fixed and still have a similar plot.

    Ep 8 pretty much needs scrapped.

    The sequel trilogy as a whole pretty much needs scrapped since there are so many inconsistencies.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    Please point out explicitly in the movie where it states that Finn was doomed to fail. Rose believes it would but Finn believes it will succeed so that is mixed evidence.


    POE: The cannon is charged! It's a suicide run! All craft, pull away!
    FINN: No! I'm almost there!
    POE: Retreat, Finn! That's an order!
    ROSE: Finn? It's too late! Don't do this!
    FINN: No! I won't let them win!
    ROSE: No! Finn, listen to Poe! We have to retreat!

    It's not just Rose's opinion, it's Poe's too. Finn's suicide run was pointless.

    Ok so Poe's opinion in the middle of a battle proves it? It does ssf how that he's learned to not sacrifice people to destroy a weapon (though I'd argue the futility of that if you're fighting a war). But it doesn't really prove that it wouldn't have destroyed the weapon.

    Finn seems to be the only one that has the slightest idea what the mini deathstar is so he may know that ramming it even when it is firing will stop it. The others arguing that it isn't worth the sacrifice isn't proof that it wouldn't work. In fact, all Poe's statement points out is that Finn wouldn't survive the run. Which isn't in question.
  • Just because it was a suicide run does not mean Finn would not be able to neutralize the target. Japan fighter aircraft occasionally used this tactic against the Allied navy in WW2.

    That whole scene was a mess, none of it made any sense. But the fault lies not with Rose (and certainly not Kelly), but with the writers. I am always amazed at how good the acting really is considering the horrible story they have to tell. The actors and editors really do an extraordinary job.
  • TVF
    25694 posts Member
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    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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