Is cheese vs GL Rey in GAC cheating?

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  • Jarvind
    3644 posts Member
    How would this be cheating? He still had to sacrifice a ton of banners to make it work.
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  • TVF
    24202 posts Member
    It's cheating because there's no cheese tag.
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  • Its_not_a_moon
    999 posts Member
    edited July 28
    U235 wrote: »
    That's not cheating, that's just tactics

    I would think that it is exploiting a flaw in the combat systems AI...

    That's not exploiting a flaw in the combat system, it's the way game is designed, The AI will always cast its especial abilities when they take a turn unless it's on cool down.

    Now the fives was an exploit which made SLKR not use his aoe damage and lose in a single match, if there was a character that prevented Rey from using her one hit kill ability than that would be a exploit
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Cheating: no.

    Exploiting the AI with under-geared/undersized squads: 100% YES

    This is the same reason Kylo had his AI tweaked both times. Kyno can we please present this to the devs if it hasn't been. This is another blatant example of preferential treatment towards one GL while neglecting the other when they were promoted as 'balanced.'

    Sure I will bring it up, but this is in no way the same as what was going on with Kylo.

    Can it be done in a single match? No.

    It may give a player a win, but they will suffer a pretty detrimental point deficit in the process and still have to use a meta team to win even after several uses of this tactic.

    That would create an exploit, where Rey won't use life drain if it's not a 5 man team, so people will bring less characters and kill everyone else expect Rey, and go in with a second team kill Rey
  • str2019
    26 posts Member
    edited July 28
    That would create an exploit, where Rey won't use life drain if it's not a 5 man team, so people will bring less characters and kill everyone else expect Rey, and go in with a second team kill Rey

    They should easily enough be able to create a simple Monte Carlo method AI and use it with a noise stat. The result would be far more pleasant and interesting, with variety, than what we are seeing in the game right now.

    Additional pros:
    + No need to do character-specific AIs anymore. Everything is handled by the same code.
    + If they want they could go fancy and add an "Intelligence" stat to every character, which would determine the noise (= randomness of moves).
  • Antario wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Antario wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Legit question - why is doing this considered, by some, a "legit strategy using knowledge of the AI" but using Fives against SLKR is considered "cheese"?

    Because there is nothing wrong with the game mechanics. It is working as intended and there is no or very little advantage gain (also in relation to the actual effort you put in).

    While in case of Cheese, the game mechanics is not working as intended by the developer. You get a huge advantage gain by exploiting it.

    And btw. Cheese is not Cheating.

    Cheese is exploiting game mechanics.

    Cheating is manipulating game mechanics.


    But in both cases, you end up beating a team with a team you are not "supposed" to be able to beat them with....and ironically , it's pretty much the same team in both cases - which, again, in both cases is the advantage gained.

    ETA : it's clearly not cheating. But it does seem like an AI weakness the developers should look into...just like they did when Kylo's AI weaknesses were used against him.

    First of all I would never generalize by saying one team is not supposed to beat another team. You can even use a Phoenix team to beat a GL Rey team, if you have mods, zetas, gear/relic level, team composition (and last but not least RNG) all considered.


    Are you all really ignoring what this guy said?
  • ZAP
    3120 posts Member
    KueChael wrote: »
    I’ll ask. But I’m pretty sure its strategy.

    Well?

    Let me guess, the person you asked said they’d ask a knowledgeable dev with a post-it note on their computer?



  • ShaggyB
    1321 posts Member
    How is this different than sending in a weak team vs a previous meta to make them burn cooldowns and then sending in a counter to clean up?

    Yeah really. The tries they used lowered their score.
  • U235
    9 posts Member
    Antario wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Antario wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Legit question - why is doing this considered, by some, a "legit strategy using knowledge of the AI" but using Fives against SLKR is considered "cheese"?

    Because there is nothing wrong with the game mechanics. It is working as intended and there is no or very little advantage gain (also in relation to the actual effort you put in).

    While in case of Cheese, the game mechanics is not working as intended by the developer. You get a huge advantage gain by exploiting it.

    And btw. Cheese is not Cheating.

    Cheese is exploiting game mechanics.

    Cheating is manipulating game mechanics.


    But in both cases, you end up beating a team with a team you are not "supposed" to be able to beat them with....and ironically , it's pretty much the same team in both cases - which, again, in both cases is the advantage gained.

    ETA : it's clearly not cheating. But it does seem like an AI weakness the developers should look into...just like they did when Kylo's AI weaknesses were used against him.

    First of all I would never generalize by saying one team is not supposed to beat another team. You can even use a Phoenix team to beat a GL Rey team, if you have mods, zetas, gear/relic level, team composition (and last but not least RNG) all considered.


    Are you all really ignoring what this guy said?


  • Ravens1113
    2389 posts Member
    Yes let’s be outraged over a tactic that takes multiple attempts (several actually) to beat a team that is near impossible to defeat without a GL on your roster in 3v3 format. I’ve been looking for counters and so far the only one I’ve seen is this method. MAAAAAAYBE a DR composite with thrawn May work but that’s RNG based and needs luck.

    So no behalf of the many players that don’t have GL’s but still get matched with them, get over it. No team composite is meant to be unbeatable. Plus GL Rey is still arguably the best defense for 3v3, even with this strategy. It soaks up multiple toons and a meta team. As it should.
  • Theres cheese in the game?? Where do I get this cheese and please tell me its swiss.
  • Rath_Tarr
    3338 posts Member
    Theres cheese in the game?? Where do I get this cheese and please tell me its swiss.
    8ocw7vcef0ty.jpg
  • Mirkraag
    357 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    Mirkraag wrote: »
    So SLKR using bad AI but with a reason (targeting a character to prevent his sacrifice that will lead to the defeat under gas lead) ---- not ok, needs a buff that will decuplate its efficiency in defense against everyone

    Rey using bad AI and with no reason (removing her own health against non geared toons) --- ok, well you know the story. Rey is fine, she is awesome, nothing to see here, it is called tactic blablabla

    Nice one. I will add it to the list. Very funny. What a joke. This is going more and more absurd lol

    This is completely different than those AI issues, which you apparently all looked over. Those were squads that could beat SLKR by themselves. This is multiple teams. Multiple teams cost points in the modes where you can use more than one team. That means that they pay the price for this attack.
    1) The toons have to be geared enough to survive until Rey loses health.
    2) Their TW and GAC points still decrease, opening up a possible lead for you.
    3)They still have to use a good team to finish her off.
    This doesn’t suddenly make Rey useless. She still might only be second best, but that’s mighty high compared to third best. Besides, this person had to be smart enough to figure this out; how many people out there do you think are actually going to get this right as well?

    I must admit your points are valid. Not really the same as it needs several teams instead of only one and the loss of banners.

    Alright, I am ok with this ! (by the way never said Rey is useless in herself, just too bad compared to her dyad SLKR for the same amount of ressources required and CG equality speech, but that is another story)
  • How is this different than sending in a weak team vs a previous meta to make them burn cooldowns and then sending in a counter to clean up?

    Because previous metas didn't lose 75% of their health and a key trigger (immune to damage when she hits 50% or less health) when they were repeatedly attacked by weak teams.
  • Nikoms565
    12501 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Cheating: no.

    Exploiting the AI with under-geared/undersized squads: 100% YES

    This is the same reason Kylo had his AI tweaked both times. Kyno can we please present this to the devs if it hasn't been. This is another blatant example of preferential treatment towards one GL while neglecting the other when they were promoted as 'balanced.'

    Sure I will bring it up, but this is in no way the same as what was going on with Kylo.

    Can it be done in a single match? No.

    It may give a player a win, but they will suffer a pretty detrimental point deficit in the process and still have to use a meta team to win even after several uses of this tactic.

    You mean "previous meta team" - and it's only a single team. GLs are the current meta in the examples we're talking about.

    And "pretty detrimental" is completely situational and subjective. In the case outlined by the OP, the banners wasted would have easily been made up as the opponent only used a single strong team to beat a GL, as opposed to breaking apart 2-4 strong previous meta teams to defeat a GL (usually requiresd vs. SLKR)

    If SLKR was beatable like this, one has to wonder if there would be another AI "fix"....or if it would have already been done.
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  • Keydash1
    421 posts Member
    Another reason kylo cheese was killed but this Rey strat isn't - it's far less reliable. Rey can heal off her basic and cover, then beat your GAS. The only danger with fives cheese vs kylo was timing out.
  • MaruMaru
    704 posts Member
    Antario wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Antario wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Legit question - why is doing this considered, by some, a "legit strategy using knowledge of the AI" but using Fives against SLKR is considered "cheese"?

    Because there is nothing wrong with the game mechanics. It is working as intended and there is no or very little advantage gain (also in relation to the actual effort you put in).

    While in case of Cheese, the game mechanics is not working as intended by the developer. You get a huge advantage gain by exploiting it.

    And btw. Cheese is not Cheating.

    Cheese is exploiting game mechanics.

    Cheating is manipulating game mechanics.


    But in both cases, you end up beating a team with a team you are not "supposed" to be able to beat them with....and ironically , it's pretty much the same team in both cases - which, again, in both cases is the advantage gained.

    ETA : it's clearly not cheating. But it does seem like an AI weakness the developers should look into...just like they did when Kylo's AI weaknesses were used against him.

    First of all I would never generalize by saying one team is not supposed to beat another team. You can even use a Phoenix team to beat a GL Rey team, if you have mods, zetas, gear/relic level, team composition (and last but not least RNG) all considered.

    Advantages are gained in both cases for sure, but it has been pointed out earlier in this thread that by beating a team in the sixth attempt (by the way not as consistent as you might think) is different than cheesing a GL team in the very first attempt. And in GAC, every banner counts. If you can use the same strategy in the Arena, then it's a different story, but luckily you can't. In Arena only cheesing works and therefore it should be changed for good.

    Let's be honest, AI in this game will always have weaknesses. That's a fact, not only for Rey. It all depends on how much advantage you can gain from those weaknesses. Definitely it does not make sense to chase after each and every AI weakness. If AI has no weakness, I'm pretty sure many people won't enjoy this game as much as they do right now. Btw. I think that might also be the reason why many people here are against the introduction of live PvP, but that's a different topic.

    Let's also be honest and admit CG can change ai moves any way they want, any moment they want.
  • How is this different than sending in a weak team vs a previous meta to make them burn cooldowns and then sending in a counter to clean up?
    This. I remember well when people used exactly that strategy against Darth Revan/Malak teams: first throw in a weak team to soak up the special abilities, when done it right you could then take the team out with CLS. Like others already said, it's a sacrificial strategy, nothing wrong with it.
  • How is this different than sending in a weak team vs a previous meta to make them burn cooldowns and then sending in a counter to clean up?

    Because previous metas didn't lose 75% of their health and a key trigger (immune to damage when she hits 50% or less health) when they were repeatedly attacked by weak teams.

    So? If your opponent is willing to sacrifice that many points to slowly drain Rey down, you should still count it as a victory.

    In addition, Rey at 25% health is still over 100k health. It’s not easy to kill her even then.
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