He can’t even beat Rey
He gets soloed by SLKR.
He does only 8M in phase 2 of Sith raid
What is SEE good at ?
From my personal testing... beating JML (fellow guildies with Ultimate JML says that flips the other way).. beating gas...
and thats about it. He's terrible. He screws over his own tanks by neutering their tanking abilities (sion can't revive and malak can't be crit which means he can't fear), he does no dmg himself, and he doesn't really have much synergy with the other sith (ie recovering prot when all sith are health based)
he has no good debuffs to speak of.. (unlike JML with CD increase.. AB, breach.)
he doesn't have TM gain. his mastery stacking does... basicly nothing.
so yeah... his gameplay is as boring as the farts he throws
He needs a massive buff/rework. DR team is better than anything you can do with SEE. I have his ultimate and aside from the fact he can knock two toons out his weak little shock basic might as well tickle the opponent. And I have an offense set on him too...
He needs a massive buff/rework. DR team is better than anything you can do with SEE. I have his ultimate and aside from the fact he can knock two toons out his weak little shock basic might as well tickle the opponent. And I have an offense set on him too...
I feel like his ultimate actually DEBUFFS and WEAKENS him... he loses his speed up on basic. he can't recover any meaningful protection anymore and loses the mass assist.
He needs a massive buff/rework. DR team is better than anything you can do with SEE. I have his ultimate and aside from the fact he can knock two toons out his weak little shock basic might as well tickle the opponent. And I have an offense set on him too...
I feel like his ultimate actually DEBUFFS and WEAKENS him... he loses his speed up on basic. he can't recover any meaningful protection anymore and loses the mass assist.
Unlimited Power feels weak. And his basic might as well be a Barriss Offee smack. For someone that is all the Sith he feels like one of the weakest.
I could write paragraphs to break down how bad his kit is. If the damage was amped a bunch (which it should) I still don’t see that making much of a difference.
He needs a massive buff/rework. DR team is better than anything you can do with SEE. I have his ultimate and aside from the fact he can knock two toons out his weak little shock basic might as well tickle the opponent. And I have an offense set on him too...
I feel like his ultimate actually DEBUFFS and WEAKENS him... he loses his speed up on basic. he can't recover any meaningful protection anymore and loses the mass assist.
Unlimited Power feels weak. And his basic might as well be a Barriss Offee smack. For someone that is all the Sith he feels like one of the weakest.
I could write paragraphs to break down how bad his kit is. If the damage was amped a bunch (which it should) I still don’t see that making much of a difference.
Oh I agree. I was actually going to write up a multi paragraph report and ideas for fixes.
A couple of which is to give him some actual debuffs and synergies along with small tweaks to deceive overall.
As he stands.. hes the worst of the 4 GLs and feels more like a legendary journey character then something end game and to be proud of.
He needs a massive buff/rework. DR team is better than anything you can do with SEE. I have his ultimate and aside from the fact he can knock two toons out his weak little shock basic might as well tickle the opponent. And I have an offense set on him too...
I feel like his ultimate actually DEBUFFS and WEAKENS him... he loses his speed up on basic. he can't recover any meaningful protection anymore and loses the mass assist.
Unlimited Power feels weak. And his basic might as well be a Barriss Offee smack. For someone that is all the Sith he feels like one of the weakest.
I could write paragraphs to break down how bad his kit is. If the damage was amped a bunch (which it should) I still don’t see that making much of a difference.
Oh I agree. I was actually going to write up a multi paragraph report and ideas for fixes.
A couple of which is to give him some actual debuffs and synergies along with small tweaks to deceive overall.
As he stands.. hes the worst of the 4 GLs and feels more like a legendary journey character then something end game and to be proud of.
Here ya go
There are too many things wrong with the kit is the main reason why:
🔹So Be It Jedi only recovers protection and Sith deal with health more
🔹Sith can’t revive which there ain’t any other Sith except Sion which revive under Held by Hatred so you hurt his kit
🔹Your linked enemies can’t critically hit so it doesn’t fuel Malak or DN at all
🔹 His special damage is so so bad. Like the worst in the game
🔹When one enemy exists he can’t so **** with Linked. There should be another ability but there is not so they don’t even allow you to use it. You basically are left with a weak shock and a Mass lightening that can’t kill any GL
🔹Because of the deceived ability it stops counter chances which would help fuel Palps ability as linked enemies using abilities (kit doesn’t specify if it has to be their turn) helps him get to ultimate faster. Deceived should limit the damage your Sith Toons take (kinda like Reys Lifeblood)
🔹He is one of the slowest GL out of the gate
🔹He and his entire Sith team can be one shot by a Lone SLKR
🔹Once at ultimate against Rey unless you drop her health prior to getting your ultimate you are basically waiting to die. It should be a more of who gets to their ultimate faster to finish the other one off. Nope. Bad kit
He needs a massive buff/rework. DR team is better than anything you can do with SEE. I have his ultimate and aside from the fact he can knock two toons out his weak little shock basic might as well tickle the opponent. And I have an offense set on him too...
I feel like his ultimate actually DEBUFFS and WEAKENS him... he loses his speed up on basic. he can't recover any meaningful protection anymore and loses the mass assist.
Unlimited Power feels weak. And his basic might as well be a Barriss Offee smack. For someone that is all the Sith he feels like one of the weakest.
I could write paragraphs to break down how bad his kit is. If the damage was amped a bunch (which it should) I still don’t see that making much of a difference.
Oh I agree. I was actually going to write up a multi paragraph report and ideas for fixes.
A couple of which is to give him some actual debuffs and synergies along with small tweaks to deceive overall.
As he stands.. hes the worst of the 4 GLs and feels more like a legendary journey character then something end game and to be proud of.
Here ya go
There are too many things wrong with the kit is the main reason why:
🔹So Be It Jedi only recovers protection and Sith deal with health more
🔹Sith can’t revive which there ain’t any other Sith except Sion which revive under Held by Hatred so you hurt his kit
🔹Your linked enemies can’t critically hit so it doesn’t fuel Malak or DN at all
🔹 His special damage is so so bad. Like the worst in the game
🔹When one enemy exists he can’t so **** with Linked. There should be another ability but there is not so they don’t even allow you to use it. You basically are left with a weak shock and a Mass lightening that can’t kill any GL
🔹Because of the deceived ability it stops counter chances which would help fuel Palps ability as linked enemies using abilities (kit doesn’t specify if it has to be their turn) helps him get to ultimate faster. Deceived should limit the damage your Sith Toons take (kinda like Reys Lifeblood)
🔹He is one of the slowest GL out of the gate
🔹He and his entire Sith team can be one shot by a Lone SLKR
🔹Once at ultimate against Rey unless you drop her health prior to getting your ultimate you are basically waiting to die. It should be a more of who gets to their ultimate faster to finish the other one off. Nope. Bad kit
Yep. you nailed most of them on the head. I've said similar things in multiple other threads.
Another one I'd love to add is that his Sow Discord should hit the weakest enemy at the start of his turn. not limited to LS only. He deceived everyone, light and dark, with his plans and schemes.
Enemy's that are affected by Deceive also have -50% defense, -25% evasion, -50% potency. (my argument here is that SEE knows the enemies weakness and how best to disrupt them.)
So Be it, Jedi - recovers 25% health and 50% protection and grant all dark side allies 25% tm
Unraveled Destiny - tank allies gain taunt, that cant be prevented (aka buff block), attacker allies gain stealth and offense up (includes himself), support allies gain foresight, 20% turn meter and potency up.
during ultimate his new basic does 150% increased damage to any deceived target (removed lightside only stipulation) and grants speed up along with healing 5% health and protection per deceived target to himself and half that to all remaining allies.
Removed the anti revive mechanic. keep the linked can't crit. yeah it hurts malak but the change above fixes that a bit.
You can target a lone target with link and when you do so they suffer Ability block that cant be resisted along with becoming linked (to themselves!)
or maybe increase the ratios on his abilities or even increase his mastery gain, or make his link siphon mastery from the targets, even something like 10% per ability they use.
with these changes... yeah his damage will still be crap.. but at least his sith allies will be better.
now, not saying he needs ALL these changes or each one being exactly word for word. numbers can always be tweaked. just some ideas i had floating around.
When He unlock his ultimate, he should do something (perhaps directly use unlimited power),
otherwise, when he transform, he lost 1 turn, and he stil may die even cant land anything.
I think people that are against SEE with a boost in his kit aren’t exactly understanding the issue. As far as I can tell I think most people are okay with SLKR beating SEE.
The issue is there shouldn’t ever be a situation where a GL can solo another team with a GL in it. And part of this is because of Linked. An easy fix would be to add another effect or ability that would happen if there is only one enemy on the battlefield. Similar to how abilities change against raid bosses it would work the same way against a lone enemy.
As of right now, SEE is the only toon in the game that has an ability that literally can’t do anything. Even the worst characters in the game have abilities that do something in the right mode whether it’s PVE or PVP.
Tbh I dont even think being able to link 1 character would fix anything. By the time SEE would get ult Kylo will have 4 times his dmg.
The most annoying thing is that you could have easily beaten this lineup with DR lead (BSF, Wat, Thrawn, GBA) and a number of Empire / Sith teams with Vader. It's ridiculous to think that once I have SEE, I'll rarely ever use him in arena. I'll still use the same Rey and SLKR counters that I'm using now. Everyone in my shard's top 50 who is working on JML already has one GL, so why would they possibly leave him on defense.
He shouldn't lose his ptrotection recovery after using ult. Its bizzare that you would have to sacrifice your ability to survive just to deal some dmg every 10 turns. Against Rey youre giving up your ability to survive her ult just to make sure you dont time out, turning a slug fest into a race against the clock (Rey regaining her ult) for yourself. Using your ult shouldnt feel like a liability.
Wouldn’t he do better in P2 of sith raid without his ultimate? Since then he can regain protection.
Probably but also I’m okay with SLKR being the only raid GL. There are other aspects to the game besides raids.
But SEE would also do better in territory battles without his Ultimate. Jumping to PVP, you won’t set SEE on defense, because SLKR will solo you. The main benefit is to beat JML, but from everything I’ve seen you don’t even need/want the ultimate for that.
SEE autos JML
JML autod Kylo
Kylo autos SEE
The 1v5 is unique to SEE because it means he can’t use link, meaning he barely gets any ult charge and ulting wouldn’t do much anyway, I expect that a way will be found for SEE to beat a 5 man Kylo team with a 5 man SEE team
Buffs are always more favorable then nerfs.
There are outliers when something is completely broken but.
If you nerf something people get upset and disheartened about their investment (time or money or both)
Buffs are a more positive mentality and can bring up older, bad, or shelved characters back into the limelight. those that worked on those characters for fun feel much much better and it gives others a reason to maybe actually work with iconic characters.. some of which might be favorites but the "meta" prevented them from getting them.
Buffs are always more favorable then nerfs.
There are outliers when something is completely broken but.
If you nerf something people get upset and disheartened about their investment (time or money or both)
Buffs are a more positive mentality and can bring up older, bad, or shelved characters back into the limelight. those that worked on those characters for fun feel much much better and it gives others a reason to maybe actually work with iconic characters.. some of which might be favorites but the "meta" prevented them from getting them.
The counter point to that, which was brought up by @scuba , and has some merit is that buffs also set an expectation that is in some way leading to the current scenario.
my personal example of this, is that in almost every thread about buffing the current GLs someone says they should be able to solo the Sith Raid. now SLKR was not buffed to do this, but players want the new set to be able to do things that they are not designed to, and since they have shortcomings in other areas, they are adding this to somewhat balance out the current investment.
i'm not saying that things couldn't use some touches and improvements, but when the new and shiny is treated as such, there is an expectation next round for the same treatment, if they do not meet "the bar". it can sometimes be hard for people to separate improvements from needed changes.
And to follow up on that point, some of the "top GL" performance by SLKR is likely because he was buffed - which is only contributing to the current problem.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
I just want to add here... JML + JKL are basically married at this point and need to be used together in PVP. I'd imagine there will be a DS killer in the vein of JKL's power that'll be married to the SEE team, as well.
I just want to add here... JML + JKL are basically married at this point and need to be used together in PVP. I'd imagine there will be a DS killer in the vein of JKL's power that'll be married to the SEE team, as well.
I suspect the next EC or Legendary will do so.
I think that character may be Darth Vader for now.
☮ Consular ☮American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor)JedhaYavin IV
Wouldn’t he do better in P2 of sith raid without his ultimate? Since then he can regain protection.
Probably but also I’m okay with SLKR being the only raid GL. There are other aspects to the game besides raids.
But SEE would also do better in territory battles without his Ultimate. Jumping to PVP, you won’t set SEE on defense, because SLKR will solo you. The main benefit is to beat JML, but from everything I’ve seen you don’t even need/want the ultimate for that.
and honestly DR/Bast/Wat will smash JML lead anywho...
The counter point to that, which was brought up by @scuba , and has some merit is that buffs also set an expectation that is in some way leading to the current scenario.
There's not really anything that can be done about it, but I suspect SLKR's amazing stat gains that other GLs don't get is part of why the other GLs don't seem as much like "GL" material, especially the mushier new guys. But GLs were always about mastery, which is easily overestimated as contributing to character stats (since it's just the mastery stats, not even all relic stats). But SLKR has great mastery stats plus gets all these other gains, which are getting conflated. I'm curious how much of SLKR's stats deeper into a battle are based on additional mastery as opposed to stats gained through elsewhere in his kit.
Replies
From my personal testing... beating JML (fellow guildies with Ultimate JML says that flips the other way).. beating gas...
and thats about it. He's terrible. He screws over his own tanks by neutering their tanking abilities (sion can't revive and malak can't be crit which means he can't fear), he does no dmg himself, and he doesn't really have much synergy with the other sith (ie recovering prot when all sith are health based)
he has no good debuffs to speak of.. (unlike JML with CD increase.. AB, breach.)
he doesn't have TM gain. his mastery stacking does... basicly nothing.
so yeah... his gameplay is as boring as the farts he throws
I feel like his ultimate actually DEBUFFS and WEAKENS him... he loses his speed up on basic. he can't recover any meaningful protection anymore and loses the mass assist.
Unlimited Power feels weak. And his basic might as well be a Barriss Offee smack. For someone that is all the Sith he feels like one of the weakest.
I could write paragraphs to break down how bad his kit is. If the damage was amped a bunch (which it should) I still don’t see that making much of a difference.
Oh I agree. I was actually going to write up a multi paragraph report and ideas for fixes.
A couple of which is to give him some actual debuffs and synergies along with small tweaks to deceive overall.
As he stands.. hes the worst of the 4 GLs and feels more like a legendary journey character then something end game and to be proud of.
Here ya go
There are too many things wrong with the kit is the main reason why:
🔹So Be It Jedi only recovers protection and Sith deal with health more
🔹Sith can’t revive which there ain’t any other Sith except Sion which revive under Held by Hatred so you hurt his kit
🔹Your linked enemies can’t critically hit so it doesn’t fuel Malak or DN at all
🔹 His special damage is so so bad. Like the worst in the game
🔹When one enemy exists he can’t so **** with Linked. There should be another ability but there is not so they don’t even allow you to use it. You basically are left with a weak shock and a Mass lightening that can’t kill any GL
🔹Because of the deceived ability it stops counter chances which would help fuel Palps ability as linked enemies using abilities (kit doesn’t specify if it has to be their turn) helps him get to ultimate faster. Deceived should limit the damage your Sith Toons take (kinda like Reys Lifeblood)
🔹He is one of the slowest GL out of the gate
🔹He and his entire Sith team can be one shot by a Lone SLKR
🔹Once at ultimate against Rey unless you drop her health prior to getting your ultimate you are basically waiting to die. It should be a more of who gets to their ultimate faster to finish the other one off. Nope. Bad kit
Yep. you nailed most of them on the head. I've said similar things in multiple other threads.
Another one I'd love to add is that his Sow Discord should hit the weakest enemy at the start of his turn. not limited to LS only. He deceived everyone, light and dark, with his plans and schemes.
Enemy's that are affected by Deceive also have -50% defense, -25% evasion, -50% potency. (my argument here is that SEE knows the enemies weakness and how best to disrupt them.)
So Be it, Jedi - recovers 25% health and 50% protection and grant all dark side allies 25% tm
Unraveled Destiny - tank allies gain taunt, that cant be prevented (aka buff block), attacker allies gain stealth and offense up (includes himself), support allies gain foresight, 20% turn meter and potency up.
during ultimate his new basic does 150% increased damage to any deceived target (removed lightside only stipulation) and grants speed up along with healing 5% health and protection per deceived target to himself and half that to all remaining allies.
Removed the anti revive mechanic. keep the linked can't crit. yeah it hurts malak but the change above fixes that a bit.
You can target a lone target with link and when you do so they suffer Ability block that cant be resisted along with becoming linked (to themselves!)
or maybe increase the ratios on his abilities or even increase his mastery gain, or make his link siphon mastery from the targets, even something like 10% per ability they use.
with these changes... yeah his damage will still be crap.. but at least his sith allies will be better.
now, not saying he needs ALL these changes or each one being exactly word for word. numbers can always be tweaked. just some ideas i had floating around.
otherwise, when he transform, he lost 1 turn, and he stil may die even cant land anything.
Tbh I dont even think being able to link 1 character would fix anything. By the time SEE would get ult Kylo will have 4 times his dmg.
The most annoying thing is that you could have easily beaten this lineup with DR lead (BSF, Wat, Thrawn, GBA) and a number of Empire / Sith teams with Vader. It's ridiculous to think that once I have SEE, I'll rarely ever use him in arena. I'll still use the same Rey and SLKR counters that I'm using now. Everyone in my shard's top 50 who is working on JML already has one GL, so why would they possibly leave him on defense.
Yep. This. Exactly this. Using his ult actually is a detriment to himself as he actually doesn't gain any damage at all.
And he loses protection regen
Probably but also I’m okay with SLKR being the only raid GL. There are other aspects to the game besides raids.
But SEE would also do better in territory battles without his Ultimate. Jumping to PVP, you won’t set SEE on defense, because SLKR will solo you. The main benefit is to beat JML, but from everything I’ve seen you don’t even need/want the ultimate for that.
Absolutely nothing new there then
No. Old characters should not be reworked if they are working properly. Buff the new toon, don’t nerf the old.
There are outliers when something is completely broken but.
If you nerf something people get upset and disheartened about their investment (time or money or both)
Buffs are a more positive mentality and can bring up older, bad, or shelved characters back into the limelight. those that worked on those characters for fun feel much much better and it gives others a reason to maybe actually work with iconic characters.. some of which might be favorites but the "meta" prevented them from getting them.
The counter point to that, which was brought up by @scuba , and has some merit is that buffs also set an expectation that is in some way leading to the current scenario.
my personal example of this, is that in almost every thread about buffing the current GLs someone says they should be able to solo the Sith Raid. now SLKR was not buffed to do this, but players want the new set to be able to do things that they are not designed to, and since they have shortcomings in other areas, they are adding this to somewhat balance out the current investment.
i'm not saying that things couldn't use some touches and improvements, but when the new and shiny is treated as such, there is an expectation next round for the same treatment, if they do not meet "the bar". it can sometimes be hard for people to separate improvements from needed changes.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
I suspect the next EC or Legendary will do so.
I think that character may be Darth Vader for now.
and honestly DR/Bast/Wat will smash JML lead anywho...