Is SLKR too Strong or is SEE too Weak?

Replies

  • dgree
    520 posts Member
    pardon me for quoting myself since this post is in feedback forum but that seems less active
    dgree wrote: »
    I know "GL nerf/buff" meta topic discussions and clickbaity youtube titles are incredibly common, and people have different ideas of what's fair or what teams should be able to beat which other teams. I hope that this a constructive post that shows appreciation for the cool things in SEE's kit, while addressing issues as well that people may not notice (Sith sometimes get a lot of attention due to DR, but although DR squads are capable on offense of defeating GLs, and that includes SLKR as well as JML--I want to focus here on SEE, not DR).

    SEE is weak, without much "unlimited power" in common scenarios due to his kit. It's not just "rock paper scissors.". SLKR battles are a strong example of it (not that SLKR can beat SEE, but that SEE cannot beat a normal SLKR squad). I want to clarify why SEE is too weak since a lot of people misunderstand some issues, and I have a suggestion for each problem. That's not to say all of them must be fixed, and it's the combination of issues that makes SEE weak--he's unable to get to ultimate in prevalent circumstances, and he won't be very strong even if he does.

    tldr:
    • SEE's power gains and damage multipliers, including post-ultimate, are relatively low in comparison to SLKR's massive damage and stats gains with or without ultimate
    • SEE doesn't help his squad much, and his squad doesn't really help him much (Sith included)
    • SEE has severe issues getting to ultimate in the first place due to a couple issues with Linked and reliance upon it for survival and ultimate charge


    1. Damage

    SEE's weak power growth means that even post-ultimate, he will not be that strong. Not only is SEE's power growth nothing like SLKR's massive HP and stat growth, but it's actually just weak. A lot of people may over- or underestimate the effect of mastery increases, but it should be noted that the mastery increase will basically just provide SEE with modest boosts of offense (no Crit Damage like agi attacker mastery). When or if SEE hits ultimate, the offense provided by his mastery will be doubled. But how much offense is this?

    In comparison, one can see videos of, by the time the battle is towards its end, SLKR hitting SEE just with basic for 200k+ damage. If SEE really has such great power, according to his theme, he should be able to compete with this--but he can't. SEE has locked shock if he gets to ultimate, but SLKR has those stat boosts, periodic immortality, and big crit damage. Also, it's not just about damage but damage multipliers--SLKR's basic alone (x2 hit) has close to triple the damage multipliers of SEE's post-ultimate basic damage multiplier.

    In other words, just looking at multipliers and not relative offense gains, it's not that SEE has amazing damage vs deceived Jedi (perhaps those multipliers are high)--it's that he has more normal damage vs deceived Jedi, and weak attacks against everyone else. (Reminder that Palpatine deceived both LS and DS in the prequel and sequel trilogies).

    The solution for that would be pretty straightforward--better stat/damage gains and higher damage multipliers post-ultimate.

    There are two strengths in SEE's ultimate:
    a) Shock on ultimate basic-- while SEE can't use Linked to prevent SLKR crits, SLKR is crit immune through the battle until advantage is both prevented and dispelled. In other words, ultimate SEE's locked shock can't be cleansed by SLKR AOE, and will prevent further applications of Advantage after it wears off (or if SLKR is deceived and SEE survives to use his new ultimate special). But even if SEE gets to ultimate, and then gets shocked on SLKR, SLKR can still become immortal for 3 turns, all the while becoming more and more powerful. So this is good, but it's not saving the day (it also gets rid of SEE's speed up).

    b) Double-annihilate: cool ability, but as one player pointed out elsewhere does 2 annihilates in about the same time Darth Nihilus can do so. It doesn't annihilate GLs, of course. Also, it can only be used the turn after ultimate usage (SEE doesn't attack on the turn he uses ultimate).

    But this all relies on SEE getting to ultimate and being strong enough after the ultimate to take advantage of this. Due to his low damage and the following issues, that often has basically no chance of happening.


    2. Faction synergy and leadership

    If SEE's squad doesn't get much of a boost from his leadership, it's very easy for SLKR to kill his squad before he has a chance of hitting ultimate. SEE's squad doesn't get much survivability or damage. Moreover, SLKR disables one ally with permastun deathstab at the beginning of battle--there isn't room in the remaining 4 spots for someone like SEE who doesn't contribute. The SE/Vader counters to other GLs shows that rather than SEE boosting his faction and SEE being strong vs GLs, it's the other way around--he often makes existing Sith/Empire squads worse and his presence is what makes Sith/Empire unable to counter a double-tank SLKR squad. The one video of a prominent Sith discord member beating SLKR with SEE shows only a single-tank SLKR squad, and is a display of a Vader counter squad that is weaker due to using SEE instead of someone else. If you understand the mechanics of these counter squads (as the increasingly depressing Sith discord does), this becomes clear fairly quickly.

    Overall, SEE has relatively low faction synergy, especially compared to SLKR's Crit Damage boost plus perma-advantage (CD up, permataunt, crit immunity, huge TM boosts, and blocking of enemy TM gain) that gives even guys like Malak and Thrawn better synergy with SLKR than with SEE. Moreover, most Sith have HP-based kits, while SEE's special just regenerates protection. Malak doesn't even have protection, and the Deceived and Linked removal of crits and counters protects enemies from being feared (and from feeding SEE's stats/ultimate).

    Again, the issue here is understanding how mastery works. The 5% mastery gain that Sith allies gradually get isn't really going to help the battle that much when they're all getting butchered. The health/prot recovery is nice, but without the sort of damage and tankiness that enemy FO get, it's a small benefit.

    One solution, assuming SEE's squad is intended to be weak, is for surviving allies to gain power from defeated allies--either an independent amount, or stats from the defeated allies. A bonus is that this would provide a purpose for Sith like Sid who are basically paperweights (he has high HP but super low damage). If SEE's squad isn't supposed to be weak, then there's something missing here.


    3. Ultimate charge and Linked

    This one's more obvious: SEE can't use Linked if there aren't two enemies. That's fine, but there should be an alternative mechanic of gaining charge--perhaps charge from ally deaths, and/or some mechanic for only one surviving enemy.

    Another issue with Linked is that SEE is forced to put Linked on a tank. After SEE is forced to kill that tank, Linked is gone. He gets a taunt-ignore bonus turn after the first Linked usage, but perhaps he should get one at the beginning where he can only apply Linked. Maybe this is also intentional, but combined with all of the other issues is pretty rough for SEE. It's already tough for SEE to survive to ultimate, especially if the Linked disappears--Linked is relied upon to negate linked enemy crits (except from enemy GLs), and to provide SEE with more protection.

  • dgree wrote: »
    pardon me for quoting myself since this post is in feedback forum but that seems less active
    dgree wrote: »
    I know "GL nerf/buff" meta topic discussions and clickbaity youtube titles are incredibly common, and people have different ideas of what's fair or what teams should be able to beat which other teams. I hope that this a constructive post that shows appreciation for the cool things in SEE's kit, while addressing issues as well that people may not notice (Sith sometimes get a lot of attention due to DR, but although DR squads are capable on offense of defeating GLs, and that includes SLKR as well as JML--I want to focus here on SEE, not DR).

    SEE is weak, without much "unlimited power" in common scenarios due to his kit. It's not just "rock paper scissors.". SLKR battles are a strong example of it (not that SLKR can beat SEE, but that SEE cannot beat a normal SLKR squad). I want to clarify why SEE is too weak since a lot of people misunderstand some issues, and I have a suggestion for each problem. That's not to say all of them must be fixed, and it's the combination of issues that makes SEE weak--he's unable to get to ultimate in prevalent circumstances, and he won't be very strong even if he does.

    tldr:
    • SEE's power gains and damage multipliers, including post-ultimate, are relatively low in comparison to SLKR's massive damage and stats gains with or without ultimate
    • SEE doesn't help his squad much, and his squad doesn't really help him much (Sith included)
    • SEE has severe issues getting to ultimate in the first place due to a couple issues with Linked and reliance upon it for survival and ultimate charge


    1. Damage

    SEE's weak power growth means that even post-ultimate, he will not be that strong. Not only is SEE's power growth nothing like SLKR's massive HP and stat growth, but it's actually just weak. A lot of people may over- or underestimate the effect of mastery increases, but it should be noted that the mastery increase will basically just provide SEE with modest boosts of offense (no Crit Damage like agi attacker mastery). When or if SEE hits ultimate, the offense provided by his mastery will be doubled. But how much offense is this?

    In comparison, one can see videos of, by the time the battle is towards its end, SLKR hitting SEE just with basic for 200k+ damage. If SEE really has such great power, according to his theme, he should be able to compete with this--but he can't. SEE has locked shock if he gets to ultimate, but SLKR has those stat boosts, periodic immortality, and big crit damage. Also, it's not just about damage but damage multipliers--SLKR's basic alone (x2 hit) has close to triple the damage multipliers of SEE's post-ultimate basic damage multiplier.

    In other words, just looking at multipliers and not relative offense gains, it's not that SEE has amazing damage vs deceived Jedi (perhaps those multipliers are high)--it's that he has more normal damage vs deceived Jedi, and weak attacks against everyone else. (Reminder that Palpatine deceived both LS and DS in the prequel and sequel trilogies).

    The solution for that would be pretty straightforward--better stat/damage gains and higher damage multipliers post-ultimate.

    There are two strengths in SEE's ultimate:
    a) Shock on ultimate basic-- while SEE can't use Linked to prevent SLKR crits, SLKR is crit immune through the battle until advantage is both prevented and dispelled. In other words, ultimate SEE's locked shock can't be cleansed by SLKR AOE, and will prevent further applications of Advantage after it wears off (or if SLKR is deceived and SEE survives to use his new ultimate special). But even if SEE gets to ultimate, and then gets shocked on SLKR, SLKR can still become immortal for 3 turns, all the while becoming more and more powerful. So this is good, but it's not saving the day (it also gets rid of SEE's speed up).

    b) Double-annihilate: cool ability, but as one player pointed out elsewhere does 2 annihilates in about the same time Darth Nihilus can do so. It doesn't annihilate GLs, of course. Also, it can only be used the turn after ultimate usage (SEE doesn't attack on the turn he uses ultimate).

    But this all relies on SEE getting to ultimate and being strong enough after the ultimate to take advantage of this. Due to his low damage and the following issues, that often has basically no chance of happening.


    2. Faction synergy and leadership

    If SEE's squad doesn't get much of a boost from his leadership, it's very easy for SLKR to kill his squad before he has a chance of hitting ultimate. SEE's squad doesn't get much survivability or damage. Moreover, SLKR disables one ally with permastun deathstab at the beginning of battle--there isn't room in the remaining 4 spots for someone like SEE who doesn't contribute. The SE/Vader counters to other GLs shows that rather than SEE boosting his faction and SEE being strong vs GLs, it's the other way around--he often makes existing Sith/Empire squads worse and his presence is what makes Sith/Empire unable to counter a double-tank SLKR squad. The one video of a prominent Sith discord member beating SLKR with SEE shows only a single-tank SLKR squad, and is a display of a Vader counter squad that is weaker due to using SEE instead of someone else. If you understand the mechanics of these counter squads (as the increasingly depressing Sith discord does), this becomes clear fairly quickly.

    Overall, SEE has relatively low faction synergy, especially compared to SLKR's Crit Damage boost plus perma-advantage (CD up, permataunt, crit immunity, huge TM boosts, and blocking of enemy TM gain) that gives even guys like Malak and Thrawn better synergy with SLKR than with SEE. Moreover, most Sith have HP-based kits, while SEE's special just regenerates protection. Malak doesn't even have protection, and the Deceived and Linked removal of crits and counters protects enemies from being feared (and from feeding SEE's stats/ultimate).

    Again, the issue here is understanding how mastery works. The 5% mastery gain that Sith allies gradually get isn't really going to help the battle that much when they're all getting butchered. The health/prot recovery is nice, but without the sort of damage and tankiness that enemy FO get, it's a small benefit.

    One solution, assuming SEE's squad is intended to be weak, is for surviving allies to gain power from defeated allies--either an independent amount, or stats from the defeated allies. A bonus is that this would provide a purpose for Sith like Sid who are basically paperweights (he has high HP but super low damage). If SEE's squad isn't supposed to be weak, then there's something missing here.


    3. Ultimate charge and Linked

    This one's more obvious: SEE can't use Linked if there aren't two enemies. That's fine, but there should be an alternative mechanic of gaining charge--perhaps charge from ally deaths, and/or some mechanic for only one surviving enemy.

    Another issue with Linked is that SEE is forced to put Linked on a tank. After SEE is forced to kill that tank, Linked is gone. He gets a taunt-ignore bonus turn after the first Linked usage, but perhaps he should get one at the beginning where he can only apply Linked. Maybe this is also intentional, but combined with all of the other issues is pretty rough for SEE. It's already tough for SEE to survive to ultimate, especially if the Linked disappears--Linked is relied upon to negate linked enemy crits (except from enemy GLs), and to provide SEE with more protection.


    You explained it perfectly. @CG_SBCrumb @CG_RyDiggs Can you implement some of these ideas to make SEE better.

    Damage boost Stats for team and SEE and an alternate ability if only one enemy toon alive to replace linked would go a long way!
  • Eweff
    400 posts Member
    YetiYeti wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Wouldn’t he do better in P2 of sith raid without his ultimate? Since then he can regain protection.

    Probably but also I’m okay with SLKR being the only raid GL. There are other aspects to the game besides raids.

    But SEE would also do better in territory battles without his Ultimate. Jumping to PVP, you won’t set SEE on defense, because SLKR will solo you. The main benefit is to beat JML, but from everything I’ve seen you don’t even need/want the ultimate for that.

    and honestly DR/Bast/Wat will smash JML lead anywho...

    From what I have seen, yes. Sad!
  • dgree wrote: »
    pardon me for quoting myself since this post is in feedback forum but that seems less active
    dgree wrote: »
    I know "GL nerf/buff" meta topic discussions and clickbaity youtube titles are incredibly common, and people have different ideas of what's fair or what teams should be able to beat which other teams. I hope that this a constructive post that shows appreciation for the cool things in SEE's kit, while addressing issues as well that people may not notice (Sith sometimes get a lot of attention due to DR, but although DR squads are capable on offense of defeating GLs, and that includes SLKR as well as JML--I want to focus here on SEE, not DR).

    SEE is weak, without much "unlimited power" in common scenarios due to his kit. It's not just "rock paper scissors.". SLKR battles are a strong example of it (not that SLKR can beat SEE, but that SEE cannot beat a normal SLKR squad). I want to clarify why SEE is too weak since a lot of people misunderstand some issues, and I have a suggestion for each problem. That's not to say all of them must be fixed, and it's the combination of issues that makes SEE weak--he's unable to get to ultimate in prevalent circumstances, and he won't be very strong even if he does.

    tldr:
    • SEE's power gains and damage multipliers, including post-ultimate, are relatively low in comparison to SLKR's massive damage and stats gains with or without ultimate
    • SEE doesn't help his squad much, and his squad doesn't really help him much (Sith included)
    • SEE has severe issues getting to ultimate in the first place due to a couple issues with Linked and reliance upon it for survival and ultimate charge


    1. Damage

    SEE's weak power growth means that even post-ultimate, he will not be that strong. Not only is SEE's power growth nothing like SLKR's massive HP and stat growth, but it's actually just weak. A lot of people may over- or underestimate the effect of mastery increases, but it should be noted that the mastery increase will basically just provide SEE with modest boosts of offense (no Crit Damage like agi attacker mastery). When or if SEE hits ultimate, the offense provided by his mastery will be doubled. But how much offense is this?

    In comparison, one can see videos of, by the time the battle is towards its end, SLKR hitting SEE just with basic for 200k+ damage. If SEE really has such great power, according to his theme, he should be able to compete with this--but he can't. SEE has locked shock if he gets to ultimate, but SLKR has those stat boosts, periodic immortality, and big crit damage. Also, it's not just about damage but damage multipliers--SLKR's basic alone (x2 hit) has close to triple the damage multipliers of SEE's post-ultimate basic damage multiplier.

    In other words, just looking at multipliers and not relative offense gains, it's not that SEE has amazing damage vs deceived Jedi (perhaps those multipliers are high)--it's that he has more normal damage vs deceived Jedi, and weak attacks against everyone else. (Reminder that Palpatine deceived both LS and DS in the prequel and sequel trilogies).

    The solution for that would be pretty straightforward--better stat/damage gains and higher damage multipliers post-ultimate.

    There are two strengths in SEE's ultimate:
    a) Shock on ultimate basic-- while SEE can't use Linked to prevent SLKR crits, SLKR is crit immune through the battle until advantage is both prevented and dispelled. In other words, ultimate SEE's locked shock can't be cleansed by SLKR AOE, and will prevent further applications of Advantage after it wears off (or if SLKR is deceived and SEE survives to use his new ultimate special). But even if SEE gets to ultimate, and then gets shocked on SLKR, SLKR can still become immortal for 3 turns, all the while becoming more and more powerful. So this is good, but it's not saving the day (it also gets rid of SEE's speed up).

    b) Double-annihilate: cool ability, but as one player pointed out elsewhere does 2 annihilates in about the same time Darth Nihilus can do so. It doesn't annihilate GLs, of course. Also, it can only be used the turn after ultimate usage (SEE doesn't attack on the turn he uses ultimate).

    But this all relies on SEE getting to ultimate and being strong enough after the ultimate to take advantage of this. Due to his low damage and the following issues, that often has basically no chance of happening.


    2. Faction synergy and leadership

    If SEE's squad doesn't get much of a boost from his leadership, it's very easy for SLKR to kill his squad before he has a chance of hitting ultimate. SEE's squad doesn't get much survivability or damage. Moreover, SLKR disables one ally with permastun deathstab at the beginning of battle--there isn't room in the remaining 4 spots for someone like SEE who doesn't contribute. The SE/Vader counters to other GLs shows that rather than SEE boosting his faction and SEE being strong vs GLs, it's the other way around--he often makes existing Sith/Empire squads worse and his presence is what makes Sith/Empire unable to counter a double-tank SLKR squad. The one video of a prominent Sith discord member beating SLKR with SEE shows only a single-tank SLKR squad, and is a display of a Vader counter squad that is weaker due to using SEE instead of someone else. If you understand the mechanics of these counter squads (as the increasingly depressing Sith discord does), this becomes clear fairly quickly.

    Overall, SEE has relatively low faction synergy, especially compared to SLKR's Crit Damage boost plus perma-advantage (CD up, permataunt, crit immunity, huge TM boosts, and blocking of enemy TM gain) that gives even guys like Malak and Thrawn better synergy with SLKR than with SEE. Moreover, most Sith have HP-based kits, while SEE's special just regenerates protection. Malak doesn't even have protection, and the Deceived and Linked removal of crits and counters protects enemies from being feared (and from feeding SEE's stats/ultimate).

    Again, the issue here is understanding how mastery works. The 5% mastery gain that Sith allies gradually get isn't really going to help the battle that much when they're all getting butchered. The health/prot recovery is nice, but without the sort of damage and tankiness that enemy FO get, it's a small benefit.

    One solution, assuming SEE's squad is intended to be weak, is for surviving allies to gain power from defeated allies--either an independent amount, or stats from the defeated allies. A bonus is that this would provide a purpose for Sith like Sid who are basically paperweights (he has high HP but super low damage). If SEE's squad isn't supposed to be weak, then there's something missing here.


    3. Ultimate charge and Linked

    This one's more obvious: SEE can't use Linked if there aren't two enemies. That's fine, but there should be an alternative mechanic of gaining charge--perhaps charge from ally deaths, and/or some mechanic for only one surviving enemy.

    Another issue with Linked is that SEE is forced to put Linked on a tank. After SEE is forced to kill that tank, Linked is gone. He gets a taunt-ignore bonus turn after the first Linked usage, but perhaps he should get one at the beginning where he can only apply Linked. Maybe this is also intentional, but combined with all of the other issues is pretty rough for SEE. It's already tough for SEE to survive to ultimate, especially if the Linked disappears--Linked is relied upon to negate linked enemy crits (except from enemy GLs), and to provide SEE with more protection.


    Thank you for posting this, this is a great detailed breakdown of the problems with his kit. If @CG_Doja_Fett brings one breakdown of the problems with SEE’s kit to the devs, I hope it is this one.
  • dgree
    520 posts Member
    @Eweff @YetiYeti basically. It's tricky because people also run JML with an offensive turtle squad, but DR really runs circles around it.

    While SEE's protection drain is a pretty solid tool vs JML, SE just gain speed from JML's ability blocks and take advantage of his lead. The lesson here is that DR can be used to climb through just about any squad, some with more difficulty than others (particularly SLKR, where DR can actually only win if SEE is pushed out of the team). In other words, a lot of power attributed to SEE is really mostly DR.

    Which leads to the question--if a player has to climb through SLKR walls using DR anyway (non-ancient shards are heavily skewed towards SLKR) and will get dropped hard out of the meta ranks by all the SLKRs, what exactly is the benefit of getting SEE? Is it just supposed to be a toy for TW? I don't get it.
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    The counter point to that, which was brought up by scuba , and has some merit is that buffs also set an expectation that is in some way leading to the current scenario.
    There's not really anything that can be done about it, but I suspect SLKR's amazing stat gains that other GLs don't get is part of why the other GLs don't seem as much like "GL" material, especially the mushier new guys. But GLs were always about mastery, which is easily overestimated as contributing to character stats (since it's just the mastery stats, not even all relic stats). But SLKR has great mastery stats plus gets all these other gains, which are getting conflated. I'm curious how much of SLKR's stats deeper into a battle are based on additional mastery as opposed to stats gained through elsewhere in his kit.
    It is easy to figure out. SLKR Relic Stat boosts Damage, Crit Damage, and Crit Chance. Since it is damage and crit damage it really ramps up his overall damage.
  • dgree
    520 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    scuba wrote: »
    It is easy to figure out. SLKR Relic Stat boosts Damage, Crit Damage, and Crit Chance. Since it is damage and crit damage it really ramps up his overall damage.
    I'm sure figuring it out is doable--just curious what it is. Maybe I thought he was getting non-mastery stats but is really just getting a ton of mastery. Looking at siphon more closely now (just the ability description), it looks like his AOE gives him mastery based on a % of his siphon stacks. Siphon itself says "this unit will gain 1% of a stat" but doesn't say what stat.


    Anyway, SLKR is nuts. @TheRealNickEZ --That's just lead. So you'll probably see plenty of Reys without a Rey lead. However, it probably depends on shard age--ancient shards will have plenty of people who had JTR, saw Reys kit, and were able to get a GL earlier and went Rey. Newer shards probably don't have rosters as developed, were often stuck in KOTOR and CW era, saw how great especially buffed SLKR was in every game mode, and went FO. And both new GLs look pretty bad on defense (SEE not really great on offense either), so the SLKR walls are building up. This doesn't really mean anything I suppose except that peoples' perspectives on arena meta can differ a lot.
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    dgree wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    It is easy to figure out. SLKR Relic Stat boosts Damage, Crit Damage, and Crit Chance. Since it is damage and crit damage it really ramps up his overall damage.
    I'm sure figuring it out is doable--just curious what it is. Maybe I thought he was getting non-mastery stats but is really just getting a ton of mastery. Looking at siphon more closely now (just the ability description), it looks like his AOE gives him mastery based on a % of his siphon stacks. Siphon itself says "this unit will gain 1% of a stat" but doesn't say what stat.


    Anyway, SLKR is nuts. TheRealNickEZ --That's just lead. So you'll probably see plenty of Reys without a Rey lead. However, it probably depends on shard age--ancient shards will have plenty of people who had JTR, saw Reys kit, and were able to get a GL earlier and went Rey. Newer shards probably don't have rosters as developed, were often stuck in KOTOR and CW era, saw how great especially buffed SLKR was in every game mode, and went FO. And both new GLs look pretty bad on defense (SEE not really great on offense either), so the SLKR walls are building up. This doesn't really mean anything I suppose except that peoples' perspectives on arena meta can differ a lot.

    Yes, he is simply boosting the master stat value, at R7 it is 60 (shown as 45 in the relic screen), so for SLKR pure damage and more damage, and MOAR!
  • Ultra
    11452 posts Moderator
    dozci85vu71x.jpeg

    there is less than 1k SEE in the entire game

    there is more than 19k GL Rey in the entire game
  • I would be curious to hear from CG if the SLKR solo is intended or not.

    From what I've seen (not enough to make a judgment on whether he needs a buff or not), papa palps does good against jml and Rey but is countered by Kylo.

    That much seems intended. The solo by SLKR seems like an oversight on the linked ability but could be intended.

    If it isn't intended, an easy fix would be that if there is only one character, linked instantly defeats that character.
  • vincentlondon
    4527 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Wow the ratio of number of SEE / number of JML is around 1/6
  • Here is non ult SEE team beating SLKR team. Now, please, stop complaining. You don't even need to use GL to beat SLKR, so why do you want to fight him with SEE so much, thats a waste.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPzdvt71kc
  • dgree
    520 posts Member
    Arxyone wrote: »
    Here is non ult SEE team beating SLKR team. Now, please, stop complaining. You don't even need to use GL to beat SLKR, so why do you want to fight him with SEE so much, thats a waste.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPzdvt71kc
    I'm not sure what your point is in just dismissing other people as complaining without actually reading what they've written, but I appreciate you agreeing that this video of a successful counter to a single-tank SLKR (that, as you say, SEE isn't very useful for) proves the points already made about SEE's weakness.
  • Arxyone wrote: »
    Here is non ult SEE team beating SLKR team. Now, please, stop complaining. You don't even need to use GL to beat SLKR, so why do you want to fight him with SEE so much, thats a waste.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPzdvt71kc

    thats the standard vader counter but with SEE leading. Double tank FO stops that and thrawn lead is about 10x better.
  • ShaggyB
    2390 posts Member
    Shiryu wrote: »
    Arxyone wrote: »
    Here is non ult SEE team beating SLKR team. Now, please, stop complaining. You don't even need to use GL to beat SLKR, so why do you want to fight him with SEE so much, thats a waste.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPzdvt71kc

    thats the standard vader counter but with SEE leading. Double tank FO stops that and thrawn lead is about 10x better.

    Lol i almost clicked it and then i saw no strom trooper.

    Thats an offensive slkr team placed on defense. Nice to see that SEE can beat that, but thats not the same as facing the kylo defense squad
  • dgree wrote: »
    Arxyone wrote: »
    Here is non ult SEE team beating SLKR team. Now, please, stop complaining. You don't even need to use GL to beat SLKR, so why do you want to fight him with SEE so much, thats a waste.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPzdvt71kc
    I'm not sure what your point is in just dismissing other people as complaining without actually reading what they've written, but I appreciate you agreeing that this video of a successful counter to a single-tank SLKR (that, as you say, SEE isn't very useful for) proves the points already made about SEE's weakness.

    All I am seeing here is people asking for SEE buffs and complaining that they can not beat SLKR. Here is a video that you can beat it and you don't even need SEE to do it. So what is the problem? Do you just want SEE to beat all SLKR compositions, even though he was not designed for that?
  • ShaggyB
    2390 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Arxyone wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Arxyone wrote: »
    Here is non ult SEE team beating SLKR team. Now, please, stop complaining. You don't even need to use GL to beat SLKR, so why do you want to fight him with SEE so much, thats a waste.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPzdvt71kc
    I'm not sure what your point is in just dismissing other people as complaining without actually reading what they've written, but I appreciate you agreeing that this video of a successful counter to a single-tank SLKR (that, as you say, SEE isn't very useful for) proves the points already made about SEE's weakness.

    All I am seeing here is people asking for SEE buffs and complaining that they can not beat SLKR. Here is a video that you can beat it and you don't even need SEE to do it. So what is the problem? Do you just want SEE to beat all SLKR compositions, even though he was not designed for that?

    I dont want him to.... but your video isnt what they are asking for so its not relevant.
  • What I want to know is in the intro to SEE they said he wants 3-4 tanks to make him great and give suggestions. What team do they think this team can beat? Phoenix squad? Lmfao
  • Eweff
    400 posts Member
    Arxyone wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Arxyone wrote: »
    Here is non ult SEE team beating SLKR team. Now, please, stop complaining. You don't even need to use GL to beat SLKR, so why do you want to fight him with SEE so much, thats a waste.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPzdvt71kc
    I'm not sure what your point is in just dismissing other people as complaining without actually reading what they've written, but I appreciate you agreeing that this video of a successful counter to a single-tank SLKR (that, as you say, SEE isn't very useful for) proves the points already made about SEE's weakness.

    All I am seeing here is people asking for SEE buffs and complaining that they can not beat SLKR. Here is a video that you can beat it and you don't even need SEE to do it. So what is the problem? Do you just want SEE to beat all SLKR compositions, even though he was not designed for that?

    The point is, you are beating him using a less effective composition of a team that without SEE beats SLKR even easier. Plus, it’s a non-defensive SLKR setup. So SEE is essentially unneeded there. His only advantage over other GLs is beating JML, BUT you can do that with a three man DR team. And I see Kyno and others hand waving “oh well that’s strategy.” Yeah, so let’s go hypothetical.

    Imagine you set GML and SEE on defense. I can beat JML with a 3 man non-GL team and GL solo your 5 man SEE.
    Imagine you use them on offense. What are you going to attack with them? Your JML you can use to beat a SLKR, but what about SEE? Again, I would like to think a GL is more valuable to me than a 3 man DR team, but I can’t see how the huge investment is worth it for a character whose main role is just to free up my DR team for more important things. And you need a full 5 person team for this as well. Likely taking your sith trio away.

    Is his only advantage really that he’s just lumped with DR as a potential strategic option to deploy against JML teams? Maybe the great benefit for your investment is that you can use SEE to solo some lower class teams in GAC.

    JML, Rey, and SLKR so far seem to outclass SEE in all important PvE categories as well. JML and Rey can do LSTB. SLKR can do HSTR.
    So far, there’s no evidence SEE can do HSTR. So I guess he’s just a second place SLKR for DSTB.
  • See is too weak, I just lost a GAC match where he and a full team of Sith lost to a Geo team....
  • Eweff
    400 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Eweff wrote: »
    Arxyone wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Arxyone wrote: »
    Here is non ult SEE team beating SLKR team. Now, please, stop complaining. You don't even need to use GL to beat SLKR, so why do you want to fight him with SEE so much, thats a waste.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTPzdvt71kc
    I'm not sure what your point is in just dismissing other people as complaining without actually reading what they've written, but I appreciate you agreeing that this video of a successful counter to a single-tank SLKR (that, as you say, SEE isn't very useful for) proves the points already made about SEE's weakness.

    All I am seeing here is people asking for SEE buffs and complaining that they can not beat SLKR. Here is a video that you can beat it and you don't even need SEE to do it. So what is the problem? Do you just want SEE to beat all SLKR compositions, even though he was not designed for that?

    The point is, you are beating him using a less effective composition of a team that without SEE beats SLKR even easier. Plus, it’s a non-defensive SLKR setup. So SEE is essentially unneeded there. His only advantage over other GLs is beating JML, BUT you can do that with a three man DR team. And I see Kyno and others hand waving “oh well that’s strategy.” Yeah, so let’s go hypothetical.

    Imagine you set GML and SEE on defense. I can beat JML with a 3 man non-GL team and GL solo your 5 man SEE.
    Imagine you use them on offense. What are you going to attack with them? Your JML you can use to beat a SLKR, but what about SEE? Again, I would like to think a GL is more valuable to me than a 3 man DR team, but I can’t see how the huge investment is worth it for a character whose main role is just to free up my DR team for more important things. And you need a full 5 person team for this as well. Likely taking your sith trio away.

    Is his only advantage really that he’s just lumped with DR as a potential strategic option to deploy against JML teams? Maybe the great benefit for your investment is that you can use SEE to solo some lower class teams in GAC.

    JML, Rey, and SLKR so far seem to outclass SEE in all important PvE categories as well. JML and Rey can do LSTB. SLKR can do HSTR.
    So far, there’s no evidence SEE can do HSTR. So I guess he’s just a second place SLKR for DSTB.

    Just realized that most of this is actually in response to things said in the Ultimate thread. Whoops.
    Post edited by Eweff on
  • See is too weak, I just lost a GAC match where he and a full team of Sith lost to a Geo team....

    I hope it’s ironic because if it’s real -_-
  • Eweff
    400 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    See is too weak, I just lost a GAC match where he and a full team of Sith lost to a Geo team....

    I hope it’s ironic because if it’s real -_-

    I think he’s kidding. I’m negative on SEE, and even I wouldn’t believe a GL would lose to a GEO team.
  • Eweff wrote: »
    See is too weak, I just lost a GAC match where he and a full team of Sith lost to a Geo team....

    I hope it’s ironic because if it’s real -_-

    I think he’s kidding. I’m negative on SEE, and even I wouldn’t believe a GL would lose to a GEO team.

    1000% serious I’ll post the GAC history from swgoh.gg when it’s available
  • See is too weak, I just lost a GAC match where he and a full team of Sith lost to a Geo team....

    relic bugs?
  • Depending on what SEE comp you used that’s either quite worrisome or simply confusing. Triumvirate alone or Vader alone should beat Geos...

    Anyway, has anyone found any NON-SLKR team that can reliably beat an Ult SEE? I’ve only seen a few, and many of the ones that would work vs a non Ult SEE (cough Vader) would seemingly fall flat when faced with Unlimited Power.
  • Ultra
    11452 posts Moderator
    Eweff wrote: »
    See is too weak, I just lost a GAC match where he and a full team of Sith lost to a Geo team....

    I hope it’s ironic because if it’s real -_-

    I think he’s kidding. I’m negative on SEE, and even I wouldn’t believe a GL would lose to a GEO team.

    Relic Spy hits hard and his damage keeps accumulating. SEE heals himself too much but doesn’t hit too hard without his ultimate

    Eventually spy will get to a point where he’ll hit hard enough to kill SEE. He’s always stealthing so he can’t be linked either

    It’s totally believable
  • InyakSolomon88
    1247 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Ultra wrote: »

    Relic Spy hits hard and his damage keeps accumulating. SEE heals himself too much but doesn’t hit too hard without his ultimate

    Eventually spy will get to a point where he’ll hit hard enough to kill SEE. He’s always stealthing so he can’t be linked either

    It’s totally believable

    yeah I don't doubt this could happen. No Traya lead would weaken the Triumvirate since her lead is really what does the bugs in, and if you're not running Vader with SEE, which also isn't a guarantee vs bugs, you're screwed pretty quickly.

    It's pretty funny, though.
  • Ultra wrote: »

    Relic Spy hits hard and his damage keeps accumulating. SEE heals himself too much but doesn’t hit too hard without his ultimate

    Eventually spy will get to a point where he’ll hit hard enough to kill SEE. He’s always stealthing so he can’t be linked either

    It’s totally believable

    yeah I don't doubt this could happen. No Traya lead would weaken the Triumvirate since her lead is really what does the bugs in, and if you're not running Vader with SEE, which also isn't a guarantee vs bugs, you're screwed pretty quickly.

    It's pretty funny, though.

    Not horrible though. May even be another reason to further relic bugs for gac.

    On defense you force your opponent to take out traya from their see team. Or possibly as a offensive counter.

    Mod them for health and light protection since see steals protection.
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