Why is 0 not treated as less than 60? (A GL Rey thread.)

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Stenun
680 posts Member
edited October 18
Part of Rey's Sudden Whirlwind ability reads as follows:
"This ability can't be used unless a Light Side ally dropped below 60% Health since its last use. A Light Side ally needs to have dropped below 60% Health in order to use this ability for the first time."

So why is it not usable if a Light Side Ally is on 61% Health or more and then defeated in one hit?
If a character drops to 0 Health, that is less than 60%, surely?
Post edited by Kyno on

Replies

  • It's complicated but likely because the character who died went from 61% to death not necessarily 0. And since "death" isn't a number doesn't trigger reys ability.

    But someone else probably has better data on it. I for one oppose Rey from using whirlwind when a team member is defeated in that way.
  • TheJEFFtm wrote: »
    As a proud Rey owner who got her first not terribly long after release and who has been able to make her work reasonably well in all game modes - she would be terribly OP if she got another whirlwind after every ally died.

    (And from a gameplay mechanic perspective, I don’t believe the system takes “defeated” to mean the same as “0%”)

    But I'm not saying she should be able to use Sudden Whirlwind every time a character is defeated. That's a misunderstanding of my point.
    If a character is on above 61% and then falls to 0, that should trigger it just as much as if that character had gone from 61% to 1%. Going from 59% to 0 shouldn't trigger it - I'm not saying she should get it whenever a character is defeated.
    She should get it precisely when the description says she should - whenever a character drops below 60%. It doesn't matter if that character drops to 59% or 0, it should trigger it.
  • icanectc wrote: »
    It's complicated but likely because the character who died went from 61% to death not necessarily 0. And since "death" isn't a number doesn't trigger reys ability.

    But someone else probably has better data on it. I for one oppose Rey from using whirlwind when a team member is defeated in that way.

    "Death" isn't a number but unless the character is the victim of an auto-defeat effect, they have reached "death" because their health has become 0 (or less). Thus, that should trigger Sudden Whirlwind **if** they started above 60% before the attack that killed them.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    icanectc wrote: »
    It's complicated but likely because the character who died went from 61% to death not necessarily 0. And since "death" isn't a number doesn't trigger reys ability.

    But someone else probably has better data on it. I for one oppose Rey from using whirlwind when a team member is defeated in that way.

    "Death" isn't a number but unless the character is the victim of an auto-defeat effect, they have reached "death" because their health has become 0 (or less). Thus, that should trigger Sudden Whirlwind **if** they started above 60% before the attack that killed them.

    You just said alot of stuff and didn't say anything lol
  • crzydroid
    4849 posts Moderator
    These things usually mean the character has to survive when worded that way. Like with Drevan you don't get Deathmark on enemy leader if they are one shot. Things like Revan's Savior and Unending Loyalty say things like "would have been reduced to 1 health," or "cannot be defeated." Rey's ability implies it's not meant to be a death save in the same way, just that they get some buffs when they take a dangerous hit but survive.
  • TVF
    25694 posts Member
    2 x 0 > 60
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • icanectc wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    icanectc wrote: »
    It's complicated but likely because the character who died went from 61% to death not necessarily 0. And since "death" isn't a number doesn't trigger reys ability.

    But someone else probably has better data on it. I for one oppose Rey from using whirlwind when a team member is defeated in that way.

    "Death" isn't a number but unless the character is the victim of an auto-defeat effect, they have reached "death" because their health has become 0 (or less). Thus, that should trigger Sudden Whirlwind **if** they started above 60% before the attack that killed them.

    You just said alot of stuff and didn't say anything lol

    Just because you had no reply, there's no need to be dismissive. You could have just not replied. Try being nice.
  • crzydroid wrote: »
    These things usually mean the character has to survive when worded that way. Like with Drevan you don't get Deathmark on enemy leader if they are one shot. Things like Revan's Savior and Unending Loyalty say things like "would have been reduced to 1 health," or "cannot be defeated." Rey's ability implies it's not meant to be a death save in the same way, just that they get some buffs when they take a dangerous hit but survive.

    I'm not saying it's a death save; I'm saying that when a character is reduced to 0 and therefore killed, Whrlwind should trigger if they started above 60% health before the attack. They're still dead. But Whirlwind should be activated.
    You don't get Death Mark on a character who isn't there with DRevan because a character needs to be there to have a buff or debuff. But a character does NOT need to be there for effects like "cannot be revived" or Old Ben's "If You Strike Me Down"; the latter is specifically triggered by being defeated regardless of if he is reduced to 0 health or hit with an "auto defeat skill". It doesn't matter either way, his ability still triggers.

    So why not Whirlwind if they are reduced to 0 from above 60%?
  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    Stenun wrote: »
    crzydroid wrote: »
    These things usually mean the character has to survive when worded that way. Like with Drevan you don't get Deathmark on enemy leader if they are one shot. Things like Revan's Savior and Unending Loyalty say things like "would have been reduced to 1 health," or "cannot be defeated." Rey's ability implies it's not meant to be a death save in the same way, just that they get some buffs when they take a dangerous hit but survive.

    I'm not saying it's a death save; I'm saying that when a character is reduced to 0 and therefore killed, Whrlwind should trigger if they started above 60% health before the attack. They're still dead. But Whirlwind should be activated.
    You don't get Death Mark on a character who isn't there with DRevan because a character needs to be there to have a buff or debuff. But a character does NOT need to be there for effects like "cannot be revived" or Old Ben's "If You Strike Me Down"; the latter is specifically triggered by being defeated regardless of if he is reduced to 0 health or hit with an "auto defeat skill". It doesn't matter either way, his ability still triggers.

    So why not Whirlwind if they are reduced to 0 from above 60%?

    Because technically they are not reduced to 0. They are dead and therefore removed and do not have health. They are not there with 0 health, technically speaking.

    It programming logic, but also game logic. If the intention was for it to be the way you want it, it would read reduced below 60% health or defeated.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Because technically they are not reduced to 0. They are dead and therefore removed and do not have health. They are not there with 0 health, technically speaking.

    It programming logic, but also game logic. If the intention was for it to be the way you want it, it would read reduced below 60% health or defeated.

    But if they're not reduced to 0 health, why are they dead?
  • Character can be defeated without receiving dmg/being reduced to 0 hp (Darth Nihilus, Mando)
  • TVF
    25694 posts Member
    Stenun wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Because technically they are not reduced to 0. They are dead and therefore removed and do not have health. They are not there with 0 health, technically speaking.

    It programming logic, but also game logic. If the intention was for it to be the way you want it, it would read reduced below 60% health or defeated.

    But if they're not reduced to 0 health, why are they dead?

    They aren't. Can't kill a hologram. Ask Luke.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Merailla wrote: »
    Character can be defeated without receiving dmg/being reduced to 0 hp (Darth Nihilus, Mando)

    I'm not talking about auto-defeat abilities. I quite accept they are an exception.
    I'm talking about a character being on 61% damage then taking enough damage in one hit to reduce them to 0.
  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    edited October 20
    Stenun wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Because technically they are not reduced to 0. They are dead and therefore removed and do not have health. They are not there with 0 health, technically speaking.

    It programming logic, but also game logic. If the intention was for it to be the way you want it, it would read reduced below 60% health or defeated.

    But if they're not reduced to 0 health, why are they dead?

    Dead, 1,2,3,4......

    0 is not a position on the scale, if it was you could be healed from dead (being at 0), but you can't.
  • Gifafi
    4995 posts Member
    Next time one of your chars drops to “zero health,” try healing them.
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • Stenun
    680 posts Member
    edited October 20
    Kyno wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Because technically they are not reduced to 0. They are dead and therefore removed and do not have health. They are not there with 0 health, technically speaking.

    It programming logic, but also game logic. If the intention was for it to be the way you want it, it would read reduced below 60% health or defeated.

    But if they're not reduced to 0 health, why are they dead?

    Dead, 1,2,3,4......

    0 is not a position on the scale, if it was you could be healed from dead (being at 0), but you can't.

    OK, this is the first counter-argument in this thread of which I see the logic. But, on the other hand ...
    But... (and again, ignoring auto-defeat skills)
    If they haven't been reduced below 60% health, they wouldn't have been defeated. They would still have above 60% health. Falling below 60% health is a necessary component of them being defeated in this manner.

    Edit: In other words, "dead" on your scale has to count as below 60% health otherwise they could be both dead and have more than 60% health at the same time.
  • scuba
    12477 posts Member
    edited October 20
    I believe every threshold ability in the game is like this.
    I think a dev stated it somewhere (I will see if I can find it), that the health scale is from full health to 1 health and for thresholds to register it must stop somewhere between the threshold and 1 health, otherwise they are not seen as health "falling"
  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    You can assume that dead counts as below 60%, but it doesn't, the number start at 1 and go up. Dead is a state, where you no longer have health.

    Again, if the design intent was to have defeated count, it would be stated in the description, much like it is for others.
  • scuba wrote: »
    I believe every threshold ability in the game is like this.
    I think a dev stated it somewhere (I will see if I can find it), that the health scale is from full health to 1 health and for thresholds to register it must stop somewhere between the threshold and 1 health, otherwise they are not seen as health "falling"

    I can understand that from a programming perspective but it doesn't make game sense (at least, not to me) as 0 is less than 60. And either way, it certainly does NOT fit in with the ability's description.
  • scuba
    12477 posts Member
    Stenun wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    I believe every threshold ability in the game is like this.
    I think a dev stated it somewhere (I will see if I can find it), that the health scale is from full health to 1 health and for thresholds to register it must stop somewhere between the threshold and 1 health, otherwise they are not seen as health "falling"

    I can understand that from a programming perspective but it doesn't make game sense (at least, not to me) as 0 is less than 60. And either way, it certainly does NOT fit in with the ability's description.

    Lots of things happen that are not in the ability description.

    If you truly believe it is bugged go submit a bug report. No one here will fix it.
    Here you will just get confirmation it is WAI.

    Note: I would look for the previous dev comment but forum search seems broken
  • scuba wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    I believe every threshold ability in the game is like this.
    I think a dev stated it somewhere (I will see if I can find it), that the health scale is from full health to 1 health and for thresholds to register it must stop somewhere between the threshold and 1 health, otherwise they are not seen as health "falling"

    I can understand that from a programming perspective but it doesn't make game sense (at least, not to me) as 0 is less than 60. And either way, it certainly does NOT fit in with the ability's description.

    Lots of things happen that are not in the ability description.

    If you truly believe it is bugged go submit a bug report. No one here will fix it.
    Here you will just get confirmation it is WAI.

    Note: I would look for the previous dev comment but forum search seems broken

    I'm not saying it's bugged. I'm not saying it's not WAI.

    I'm saying the way it is currently working is NOT consistent with the description. If you are defeated (again for the pedants, I'm excluding auto-defeat abilities) then your health has to have been reduced to below 60%. Even if we say that the scale is 4, 3, 2, 1, dead and there's no 0, it's still less than 60% otherwise they wouldn't be defeated.
  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    Stenun wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    I believe every threshold ability in the game is like this.
    I think a dev stated it somewhere (I will see if I can find it), that the health scale is from full health to 1 health and for thresholds to register it must stop somewhere between the threshold and 1 health, otherwise they are not seen as health "falling"

    I can understand that from a programming perspective but it doesn't make game sense (at least, not to me) as 0 is less than 60. And either way, it certainly does NOT fit in with the ability's description.

    Lots of things happen that are not in the ability description.

    If you truly believe it is bugged go submit a bug report. No one here will fix it.
    Here you will just get confirmation it is WAI.

    Note: I would look for the previous dev comment but forum search seems broken

    I'm not saying it's bugged. I'm not saying it's not WAI.

    I'm saying the way it is currently working is NOT consistent with the description. If you are defeated (again for the pedants, I'm excluding auto-defeat abilities) then your health has to have been reduced to below 60%. Even if we say that the scale is 4, 3, 2, 1, dead and there's no 0, it's still less than 60% otherwise they wouldn't be defeated.

    If that is what you are saying, then you are wrong.

    If it was intended to work that way it would say "or defeated", it doesn't, which is why it is working as described and WAI.

    No once they hit the "dead" point they are no longer there, there is no scale and therefore it is not below 60%.
  • scuba
    12477 posts Member
    Stenun wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Stenun wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    I believe every threshold ability in the game is like this.
    I think a dev stated it somewhere (I will see if I can find it), that the health scale is from full health to 1 health and for thresholds to register it must stop somewhere between the threshold and 1 health, otherwise they are not seen as health "falling"

    I can understand that from a programming perspective but it doesn't make game sense (at least, not to me) as 0 is less than 60. And either way, it certainly does NOT fit in with the ability's description.

    Lots of things happen that are not in the ability description.

    If you truly believe it is bugged go submit a bug report. No one here will fix it.
    Here you will just get confirmation it is WAI.

    Note: I would look for the previous dev comment but forum search seems broken

    I'm not saying it's bugged. I'm not saying it's not WAI.

    I'm saying the way it is currently working is NOT consistent with the description. If you are defeated (again for the pedants, I'm excluding auto-defeat abilities) then your health has to have been reduced to below 60%. Even if we say that the scale is 4, 3, 2, 1, dead and there's no 0, it's still less than 60% otherwise they wouldn't be defeated.

    Abilities are like siths and deal in absolutes, they are either WAI or bugged.

    If they where to put every aspect of an ability in the description they would be even wordier than they are.

    Imagine if they actually stated the order of operations for damage and buff/ debuff application.

    Not every unique states the unit must be alive for it to be active yet that is required and the uniques are NOT consistent with that wording yet that is the case.
  • TVF
    25694 posts Member
    Someone quick explain to me why this matters.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • scuba
    12477 posts Member
    Lets look at it a different way.
    Let say it worked as you want it to or think it should or whatever you want to call it, and the ability did become available if an ally was one shot from above 60% health to dead.
    That would mean in rey mirror matches once one rey used ww abilty once it would just be back and forth ww abilty (occasional ult in there) until the 2 rey's where left standing, while it would definitely speed up the mirror matches, most likely not how the battles should go, as it would really not matter who she had on her team.
  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    scuba wrote: »
    Lets look at it a different way.
    Let say it worked as you want it to or think it should or whatever you want to call it, and the ability did become available if an ally was one shot from above 60% health to dead.
    That would mean in rey mirror matches once one rey used ww abilty once it would just be back and forth ww abilty (occasional ult in there) until the 2 rey's where left standing, while it would definitely speed up the mirror matches, most likely not how the battles should go, as it would really not matter who she had on her team.

    That's a good point, it would bring out paper tanks/team composition.
  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    TVF wrote: »
    Someone quick explain to me why this matters.

    If you have to ask you can't afford it.
    :wink:
  • I don't know what it is about this board but I find it full of micro-aggressions that can make it an uncomfortable place to discuss things - even from people I feel should know better. Maybe it's just me, but I've had a much better time with this topic elsewhere.
    And one thing that I have discovered myself is that Zaalbar works the same way.
    He gains Taunt when an ally drops below 100% health but this doesn't work if they are killed this way. I took Zaalbar and my weakest possible character into a Raid attempt and waited for the weakest character to be killed in one shot. They were and Zaalbar did not gain his Taunt. I tried again with a slightly stronger character who survived falling below 100% and Zaalbar did gain his Taunt. So at least there's consistency there.
    And that does make it slightly better, tbh. I still think the wording of the two abilities - both Rey's and Zaalbar's - are at odds with the way they actually work but at least there is consistency across these skills.

    So in conclusion, and yes I will stop posting about it now because there's nothing further to be gained in carrying on, the wording of these skills is poor, they don't do what they say they do but at least they behave consistently and once you know about the bad wording across these skills, you can account for it going forward.

    I just hope that GL Luke's ability that's worded the same works the same way, too!

  • Kyno
    26087 posts Moderator
    GL Luke's ability currently has a bugged interaction with JKRs savior. It has been flagged and will be fixed.

    Yes his ability and any ability worded that way works the same.

    It can be frustrating to want something to work differently, and not fully understand the way they word kits, but this has always been the way things work.

    There are many logical reasons and even game balance reasons its handled this way. This gives them different ways to handle different skills and interactions.

    I will say if you are looking for people to just agree with you, this is not likely the place. This is all just a conversation and many of us are just trying to help you understand why it is the way it is, and why it is not likely to get changed. It's not a bug, but you can report it as such and they may tell you that, or a moderator there may respond with information similar to this thread.
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