SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Decado wrote: »
    I can’t believe what I’m seeing, people complaining about their DS GL because they can beat both LS GLs on auto with just Wat? That’s a great feature lol. Some of y’all are nuts... 😂

    I enjoy actually battling teams, not pressing a button and doing something else for a couple of minutes, and GLs are supposed to be the best of the characters in the game, thus the most challenging. With SEE its either an rng dependent complex battle with specific modding required, or a LOL AUTO. Arena used to be fun. Its not even interesting for me anymore.

    Also a terrible design for a game that is intended to be 5v5, and GAC/TW make use of full 5v5 rosters. Undermans on auto is not healthy for game balance imo. Undermans where you have to use skill and specific matchups to underman is a display of your skill/knowledge. Throwing Wat in with SEE and hitting auto is.......real skillful.

    I was enjoying SEE (not a whole lot) far more before I found out about this than I am now.

    Yep, you’re nuts. Squad arena is so boring I would welcome more chances to auto battle.

    And saving SEE-Wat to counter opposing GLs for GAC/TW is exactly what endgame players/guilds should look for! Now you can set full SE, use EP/Piett/Vader for weaker Reys, and have Triumvirate for Geos/MM.

    People will read what you wrote and miss-interpret. (Hopefully I’m not miss quoting you here). You never said this means SEE is awesome! Merely that this development adds value to SEE and should be part of the discussion. While I cant take advantage of this combo I agree with that sentiment. I just want to make it clear before this devolves. You did not say this makes up for all the other issues.

    Unless you are in which case carry on!

    Others have mentioned the issues with synergy so I won’t rehash that. I am of the opinion that Wat is one of the most versatile support characters in the game. Considering his liabilities, Wat getting SEE over the hump to consistently beat Rey who he should (making an assumption) be neutral against just doesn’t cut it for me. Especially when the opposite is true for the all 4 against SEE.

    Something I think could be interesting. Rey seems to be able to beat all the GL’s and lose to all the GL’s (an over simplification but not without merit). A scenario where All the GL’s can solo SEE but SEE can solo all the GL’s would be interesting. Ideally I’d prefer 2v5 not solo. Just a thought don’t read too much into it.

    Right! I’ve said in the past that I think SEE should get linked ability fixed so his kit can function vs undersized squads. Never said he was perfect.

    My issue is some people are crying about his PVP viability when he’s obviously very good for offense with just Wat. Being able to 2v5 most LS GL comps gives the SEE owner a ton of flexibility elsewhere. Who cares if SEE is bad for defense, when you can split up rest of the Sith/Empire toons into 3 other great endgame squads?

    My guild and I don’t usually set JML for TW/GAC defense either, because a strong JML defense costs too much to be worthwhile. It is what it is. Otoh, JML-Wat doesn’t solo any other GL on offense, I can say confidently that much.

    I’ve pointed out before that SEE has a very polarized kit and meta presence. Some of his downsides are very bad if he’s your only GL. But please don’t undersell his strengths!
  • ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Decado wrote: »
    I can’t believe what I’m seeing, people complaining about their DS GL because they can beat both LS GLs on auto with just Wat? That’s a great feature lol. Some of y’all are nuts... 😂

    I enjoy actually battling teams, not pressing a button and doing something else for a couple of minutes, and GLs are supposed to be the best of the characters in the game, thus the most challenging. With SEE its either an rng dependent complex battle with specific modding required, or a LOL AUTO. Arena used to be fun. Its not even interesting for me anymore.

    Also a terrible design for a game that is intended to be 5v5, and GAC/TW make use of full 5v5 rosters. Undermans on auto is not healthy for game balance imo. Undermans where you have to use skill and specific matchups to underman is a display of your skill/knowledge. Throwing Wat in with SEE and hitting auto is.......real skillful.

    I was enjoying SEE (not a whole lot) far more before I found out about this than I am now.

    Yep, you’re nuts. Squad arena is so boring I would welcome more chances to auto battle.

    And saving SEE-Wat to counter opposing GLs for GAC/TW is exactly what endgame players/guilds should look for! Now you can set full SE, use EP/Piett/Vader for weaker Reys, and have Triumvirate for Geos/MM.

    People will read what you wrote and miss-interpret. (Hopefully I’m not miss quoting you here). You never said this means SEE is awesome! Merely that this development adds value to SEE and should be part of the discussion. While I cant take advantage of this combo I agree with that sentiment. I just want to make it clear before this devolves. You did not say this makes up for all the other issues.

    Unless you are in which case carry on!

    Others have mentioned the issues with synergy so I won’t rehash that. I am of the opinion that Wat is one of the most versatile support characters in the game. Considering his liabilities, Wat getting SEE over the hump to consistently beat Rey who he should (making an assumption) be neutral against just doesn’t cut it for me. Especially when the opposite is true for the all 4 against SEE.

    Something I think could be interesting. Rey seems to be able to beat all the GL’s and lose to all the GL’s (an over simplification but not without merit). A scenario where All the GL’s can solo SEE but SEE can solo all the GL’s would be interesting. Ideally I’d prefer 2v5 not solo. Just a thought don’t read too much into it.

    Right! I’ve said in the past that I think SEE should get linked ability fixed so his kit can function vs undersized squads. Never said he was perfect.

    My issue is some people are crying about his PVP viability when he’s obviously very good for offense with just Wat. Being able to 2v5 most LS GL comps gives the SEE owner a ton of flexibility elsewhere. Who cares if SEE is bad for defense, when you can split up rest of the Sith/Empire toons into 3 other great endgame squads?

    My guild and I don’t usually set JML for TW/GAC defense either, because a strong JML defense costs too much to be worthwhile. It is what it is. Otoh, JML-Wat doesn’t solo any other GL on offense, I can say confidently that much.

    I’ve pointed out before that SEE has a very polarized kit and meta presence. Some of his downsides are very bad if he’s your only GL. But please don’t undersell his strengths!

    Im not trying to undersell his strengths personally. I actually think overall hes in a fairly decent position regarding viability. He can beat all the other GLs, doesnt really have a JKL or DR counter (that I know of) unlike the others. His gameplay is atrocious though. The way he achieves his viability is atrocious. If it required skill or unique modding or something I wouldnt mind being able to 2 man teams. Frankly, its cheap. In the sense it ruins an aspect of the game that people invest substantial time and resources into setting up and farming for (modding). Put lots of health on, let the ai play itself. Wow. Could absolutely use a couple touch ups. Would be nice for him to actually have faction synergy given this round of GLs were targetted more for their faction the generalist LS/DS like Rey/Kylo. Would be nice to not get solo/duo'd, but if he can do that on offense its kinda balanced (but again I think its bad for both players involved when the defensive players GL is getting duo'd and when the offensive player is hitting auto against a GL). Also concerned about future viability against DS GL's.

    Still not sure how they mixed up JML and SEEs tank and attacker tags tho. Seen more evidence they should be swapped than anything else tbh.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    Maybe the solution for making SEE more helpful to his faction was nerfing BSF so that Sith Empire would need SEE more. The Sith Empire nerfs and immunity to their abilities will continue until Sith morale improves.
  • pzahkvvkeirm.jpg
    Dont know if this has been posted here .... but if not .... boom

    "We want to avoid scenarios where teams perform better when undersized"

    Someone might have posted it ;) but worth posting again! The only push back I got was SLKR was also having problems on offense against the team that could counter him (GAS). SEE gets decimated by Imperial Troopers but certainly doesn’t have trouble beating them on offense. He does struggles against his GL counter SLKR, but as I underhand it, thats a non issue.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    dgree wrote: »
    Maybe the solution for making SEE more helpful to his faction was nerfing BSF so that Sith Empire would need SEE more. The Sith Empire nerfs and immunity to their abilities will continue until Sith morale improves.
    To be clear: the nerf is to BSF having a chance to inflict stagger / offense down / etc on the "other enemies" that aren't inflicted with fear, if the enemies resisted fear. I've also heard (sure, just anecdotal for now) that Jedi AI has been changed to focus on BSF.

    This lends much support to the oft-stated earlier speculation that CG's mistakes with SEE's kit were due to CG's being overly focused on taking Sith Empire down and preventing Sith from being a strong faction more than anything else. But SEE has one gimmick long-CD AOE attack so don't mind any of that, go and relic RG and Krennic and Sidious.
  • Is there any update on the Bastila + JML + Wat combo? I have not found an SEE team that can consistently beat it.

    You could make a small change to SEE’s kit that prevents protection regen for linked enemies or something like that to get around this. We already see it when Malevolence uses an ultimate on Hound’s Tooth.
  • Is there any update on the Bastila + JML + Wat combo? I have not found an SEE team that can consistently beat it.

    You could make a small change to SEE’s kit that prevents protection regen for linked enemies or something like that to get around this. We already see it when Malevolence uses an ultimate on Hound’s Tooth.

    Still unbeatable, afaik.

    In 3v3, just use GAS for the stacking offense
  • LordDunbar wrote: »
    Is there any update on the Bastila + JML + Wat combo? I have not found an SEE team that can consistently beat it.

    You could make a small change to SEE’s kit that prevents protection regen for linked enemies or something like that to get around this. We already see it when Malevolence uses an ultimate on Hound’s Tooth.

    Still unbeatable, afaik.

    In 3v3, just use GAS for the stacking offense

    I guess my issue here is that SEE is supposed to be a hard counter to JML. There shouldn’t be such a simple setup that prevents SEE from even winning. Right now, I actually use SLKR with wat to beat these JML teams because I gave up on trying teams with SEE.

    SLKR is a hard counter to SEE and JML is a hard counter to SLKR. You can’t make an SEE team that prevents SLKR from winning or an SLKR team that prevents JML from winning.

    And while we’re looking at changes to SEE, can we fix the issue of JKL counter attacking while deceived?
  • LordDunbar wrote: »
    Is there any update on the Bastila + JML + Wat combo? I have not found an SEE team that can consistently beat it.

    You could make a small change to SEE’s kit that prevents protection regen for linked enemies or something like that to get around this. We already see it when Malevolence uses an ultimate on Hound’s Tooth.

    Still unbeatable, afaik.

    In 3v3, just use GAS for the stacking offense

    I guess my issue here is that SEE is supposed to be a hard counter to JML. There shouldn’t be such a simple setup that prevents SEE from even winning. Right now, I actually use SLKR with wat to beat these JML teams because I gave up on trying teams with SEE.

    SLKR is a hard counter to SEE and JML is a hard counter to SLKR. You can’t make an SEE team that prevents SLKR from winning or an SLKR team that prevents JML from winning.

    And while we’re looking at changes to SEE, can we fix the issue of JKL counter attacking while deceived?

    Are you losing or are you timing out? I’ve read the trick with that one is just auto and eventually you take GML down.

    That said you’re not the only one I’ve seen who can’t reliably beat that team. The fact that there are situations where SEE struggles to win against the toon he’s suppose to hard counter is wrong.

    I’ve said it before, exactly your point, there is no flip-side to this. There is no SLKR team where GML is at risk of timing out. There is no SEE team where SLKR is in any danger of losing.

    I appreciate all the work players and the people at CG have put into hearing our concerns, but seeing a new toon with synergy’s for two GL’s and a nerf to one of the few GML counters (I understand it’s a fix but the result is a nerf) feels like a slap in the face.

    Darth Revan and Watt are in the Journey Guide. They’re not easy to get. The fact that that counter was seen as something that needed to be addressed, but the low gear Imperial Troopers counter seems perfectly fine...(again I realize it was a fix but the timing)

    I’ll wait to see what happens now that Doja is working to making the best case for SEE, but recent moves have me wondering.
  • Anyone try the Armorer now with SEE to find out if it works as well as we expect? I mean if you're using her in this team to fight Kylo teams you don't need her r7, you can just have a pre-taint, let Kylo delete it, then boom apply the thing to SEE and she can die. So I'm debating putting the zeta down if anyone finds that this is doable now
  • Anyone try the Armorer now with SEE to find out if it works as well as we expect? I mean if you're using her in this team to fight Kylo teams you don't need her r7, you can just have a pre-taint, let Kylo delete it, then boom apply the thing to SEE and she can die. So I'm debating putting the zeta down if anyone finds that this is doable now

    SLKR will poke the pretaunt, then Hux will give him another turn to aoe so you have to be geared enough to survive that, meaning youll need her at 7* to actually test her against SLKR. Hux has 5 base speed on her after SLKR lead is factored in, let alone the 20% TM he gains from getting advantage at the start of battle since hes a support. Armorer wont get any speed off SEEs lead due to being LS.
  • Decado wrote: »
    Anyone try the Armorer now with SEE to find out if it works as well as we expect? I mean if you're using her in this team to fight Kylo teams you don't need her r7, you can just have a pre-taint, let Kylo delete it, then boom apply the thing to SEE and she can die. So I'm debating putting the zeta down if anyone finds that this is doable now

    SLKR will poke the pretaunt, then Hux will give him another turn to aoe so you have to be geared enough to survive that, meaning youll need her at 7* to actually test her against SLKR. Hux has 5 base speed on her after SLKR lead is factored in, let alone the 20% TM he gains from getting advantage at the start of battle since hes a support. Armorer wont get any speed off SEEs lead due to being LS.

    Being that the armorer is a ls toon, I don't have a lot of hope that she'll help see enough to be a net benefit. Most likely will buff Rey and jml for a net nerf to see's viability against them.
  • LordDirt
    1897 posts Member
    edited January 14
    ..., you can just have a pre-taint, ...

    :|
  • Does armor AI put beskar on SEE first, on defense, or is it like Wat where he ignores SEE's presence?
  • *armorer
  • AI chooses randomly, unfortunately.
  • Mandelbro wrote: »
    AI chooses randomly, unfortunately.
    So Armorer is strictly for offense then.
  • Mandelbro wrote: »
    I just got the armorer to work with SEE. No zeta yet, but IT IS AMAZING! SEE pretty much solos SLKR by himself after getting 3 stacks of Beskar Armor. Note: he gets fractured twice and ability blocked to stop the ultimate and still pulls out a win on auto.

    Mandelbro wrote: »
    I just got the armorer to work with SEE. No zeta yet, but IT IS AMAZING! SEE pretty much solos SLKR by himself after getting 3 stacks of Beskar Armor. Note: he gets fractured twice and ability blocked to stop the ultimate and still pulls out a win on auto.


    I feel like that won’t work against a full FO team. Hux will get a 20% Tm boost and go before your thrawn.
  • Mandelbro wrote: »
    I just got the armorer to work with SEE. No zeta yet, but IT IS AMAZING! SEE pretty much solos SLKR by himself after getting 3 stacks of Beskar Armor. Note: he gets fractured twice and ability blocked to stop the ultimate and still pulls out a win on auto.

    Mandelbro wrote: »
    I just got the armorer to work with SEE. No zeta yet, but IT IS AMAZING! SEE pretty much solos SLKR by himself after getting 3 stacks of Beskar Armor. Note: he gets fractured twice and ability blocked to stop the ultimate and still pulls out a win on auto.


    I feel like that won’t work against a full FO team. Hux will get a 20% Tm boost and go before your thrawn.

    Thats what Han is for. I was running into that problem until a shard mate suggested Han for the stun. I had dreams of fitting in Wat too, but I think I need to gear up the armorer first to get more speed
  • Mandelbro wrote: »
    I just got the armorer to work with SEE. No zeta yet, but IT IS AMAZING! SEE pretty much solos SLKR by himself after getting 3 stacks of Beskar Armor. Note: he gets fractured twice and ability blocked to stop the ultimate and still pulls out a win on auto.


    I imagine this can go wrong at the start.
    your brute went under 40% hp with the first stab and armorer got 3 ingots which you was able to put on see.

    if your brute doesn't go under 40% hp or is instakilled I am not sure if it will work


  • Its 60%, but yeah I'm also interested in knowing if she gets the 3rd stack if the pre taunt gets deleted. @Mandelbro have you tested this?
  • MikKro wrote: »
    Its 60%, but yeah I'm also interested in knowing if she gets the 3rd stack if the pre taunt gets deleted. @Mandelbro have you tested this?

    right, mixed it up with the 40% prot recovery
  • If the pre Taunt is deleted you won’t get the stack.
  • Yes, this was one of the first things that went wrong when I was figuring the counter out. If the pretaunt is instakilled you do not get a stack of beskar. I can't imagine making a brute tanky enough to have more than 60% health left though. I will try it with some higher offense SLKRs soon.
  • I see, so a g13 Brood or G12 ish pre taunt to make it work
  • This won’t work against FO team, that said, I’m interested if See, Wat, Han, arm and Set /brood could do it
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