SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • i almost thought you were defending him then when i saw that image =L
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Ripperpa wrote: »
    s9om1klui6q0.jpg

    Yeah the new gls are really bad...

    that can also mean that arena is contractual, My guildmate kills SEE Ultimate with his Kylo + Traya in a minute, no longer.
  • Kyno
    27516 posts Moderator
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    It would be really good to get a response from CG on this other than "we are keeping an eye on things". Is SEE working as intended? If so, I'll abandon the farm now.

    But it would be nice to have an explanation as to why he is designed with so many glaring flaws (such as crippling the most of the sith tanks), and why he doesn't match the pre-release description (e.g. becoming a very strong attacker after ultimate, when he does far less damage than so many other characters).

    Most of the things we have brought to them, and the general sentiment, has been met by both sides (devs and players) in the conversation, pointing out that the counter videos were not ultimate and not maxed, and asking to see more variations to see if modding or team comp can help. (This was when I started asking for more, to help further the conversation)

    The damage situation was just brought up, with some of the direct information we are seeing, but the no 50% was brought up earlier.

    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member

  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Basic damage of Ult-activated SEE against Fallen Bastila is 26k ?!?!, starting from 10:03 on video Above
    Starting from 2:10 Vader's basic 33k damage, Palp's basic -- 24 k
  • dgree
    384 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Kyno wrote: »
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    It would be really good to get a response from CG on this other than "we are keeping an eye on things". Is SEE working as intended? If so, I'll abandon the farm now.

    But it would be nice to have an explanation as to why he is designed with so many glaring flaws (such as crippling the most of the sith tanks), and why he doesn't match the pre-release description (e.g. becoming a very strong attacker after ultimate, when he does far less damage than so many other characters).

    Most of the things we have brought to them, and the general sentiment, has been met by both sides (devs and players) in the conversation, pointing out that the counter videos were not ultimate and not maxed, and asking to see more variations to see if modding or team comp can help. (This was when I started asking for more, to help further the conversation)

    The damage situation was just brought up, with some of the direct information we are seeing, but the no 50% was brought up earlier.

    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    So... I think we're getting closer, and I agree entirely about stuff like padme vs non-ult SEE, but some more questions:

    1)
    What about the issues that aren't just "weird" teams countering SEE, but rather SEE's critical issues even on offense? Is his poor leadership intended? Are his Linked issues (solo enemy, or forced to link then kill a tank like a NS zombie) intended?

    2)
    With all respect (I do mean that), I've been bringing up SEE's damage as an issue at almost every opportunity (maybe a little later because at first he wasn't even reaching ultimate in a lot of battles). I'm also really confused about what devs need to see, because it means no one's read my (fairly brief) explanation--which is totally fine and even expected, if these issues were anticipated or were already known about from common SEE battles, but it seems like maybe there isn't awareness of these issues, in which case I would really encourage reading it.

    His low scaling and terrible damage is probably his core problem as an attacker, but a lot of SEE owners' concerns isn't just weird teams countering him but that he's released in the context of a fairly SLKR-dominated meta (sure, shards vary, but no one doubts SLKR's power) and there is no reliable SEE counter to SLKR (and certainly not one where SEE really does much).

    Every normal SEE vs SLKR video shows his weaknesses. Should SEE owners start using their battles recording disastrous and hopeless losses against SLKR? If these videos are actually needed, I'm sure people could come up with them. Or is SEE actually intended to be stomped by the preexisting meta, and CG just didn't tell anyone? I'm happy to gather evidence, but when CG says stuff like "wait and see," a lot of us assume they know exactly what's going on with SEE and his issues because battles against SLKR squads and solo SLKR illustrate them, and of course a new meta character--A GALACTIC LEGEND!--would be expected to have a good chance of beating existing meta squads at least on offense.
  • Kyno
    27516 posts Moderator
    edited November 2020
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    It would be really good to get a response from CG on this other than "we are keeping an eye on things". Is SEE working as intended? If so, I'll abandon the farm now.

    But it would be nice to have an explanation as to why he is designed with so many glaring flaws (such as crippling the most of the sith tanks), and why he doesn't match the pre-release description (e.g. becoming a very strong attacker after ultimate, when he does far less damage than so many other characters).

    Most of the things we have brought to them, and the general sentiment, has been met by both sides (devs and players) in the conversation, pointing out that the counter videos were not ultimate and not maxed, and asking to see more variations to see if modding or team comp can help. (This was when I started asking for more, to help further the conversation)

    The damage situation was just brought up, with some of the direct information we are seeing, but the no 50% was brought up earlier.

    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    So... I think we're getting closer, and I agree entirely about stuff like padme vs non-ult SEE, but some more questions:

    1)
    What about the issues that aren't just "weird" teams countering SEE, but rather SEE's critical issues even on offense? Is his poor leadership intended? Are his Linked issues (solo enemy, or forced to link then kill a tank like a NS zombie) intended?

    Ignoring taunt on link was suggested, and it seems this was deemed too powerful in internal testing.

    We were also told that kut changes at thos point would not be the first thing to happen without some major points being brought up (again promoting me to ask for more information from everyone.....)
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    It would be really good to get a response from CG on this other than "we are keeping an eye on things". Is SEE working as intended? If so, I'll abandon the farm now.

    But it would be nice to have an explanation as to why he is designed with so many glaring flaws (such as crippling the most of the sith tanks), and why he doesn't match the pre-release description (e.g. becoming a very strong attacker after ultimate, when he does far less damage than so many other characters).

    Most of the things we have brought to them, and the general sentiment, has been met by both sides (devs and players) in the conversation, pointing out that the counter videos were not ultimate and not maxed, and asking to see more variations to see if modding or team comp can help. (This was when I started asking for more, to help further the conversation)

    The damage situation was just brought up, with some of the direct information we are seeing, but the no 50% was brought up earlier.

    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    2)
    With all respect (I do mean that), I've been bringing up SEE's damage as an issue at almost every opportunity (maybe a little later because at first he wasn't even reaching ultimate in a lot of battles). I'm also really confused about what devs need to see, because it means no one's read my (fairly brief) explanation--which is totally fine and even expected, if these issues were anticipated or were already known about from common SEE battles, but it seems like maybe there isn't awareness of these issues, in which case I would really encourage reading it.

    They do read, and we started bringing up these points as we gather information, again questions of modding and stuff come up, so it's still in the gathering information stages.

    The first round of things we started looking at were the counters as those seemed to be the more troubling to the general community, and as you said we were not seeing as much post ultimate stuff.

    This is not a quick process, and they will always take their time to examine the situation fully, which again is why I was asking for more information to help support the case.
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    It would be really good to get a response from CG on this other than "we are keeping an eye on things". Is SEE working as intended? If so, I'll abandon the farm now.

    But it would be nice to have an explanation as to why he is designed with so many glaring flaws (such as crippling the most of the sith tanks), and why he doesn't match the pre-release description (e.g. becoming a very strong attacker after ultimate, when he does far less damage than so many other characters).

    Most of the things we have brought to them, and the general sentiment, has been met by both sides (devs and players) in the conversation, pointing out that the counter videos were not ultimate and not maxed, and asking to see more variations to see if modding or team comp can help. (This was when I started asking for more, to help further the conversation)

    The damage situation was just brought up, with some of the direct information we are seeing, but the no 50% was brought up earlier.

    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    ...

    His low scaling and terrible damage is probably his core problem as an attacker, but a lot of SEE owners' concerns isn't just weird teams countering him but that he's released in the context of a fairly SLKR-dominated meta (sure, shards vary, but no one doubts SLKR's power) and there is no reliable SEE counter to SLKR (and certainly not one where SEE really does much).

    No one said they were the only concern, and if anything they are hand in hand, meaning pointing out those counters could prompt some rework that involved more damage output.
    Every normal SEE vs SLKR video shows his weaknesses. Should SEE owners start using their battles recording disastrous and hopeless losses against SLKR? If these videos are actually needed, I'm sure people could come up with them. Or is SEE actually intended to be stomped by the preexisting meta, and CG just didn't tell anyone? I'm happy to gather evidence, but when CG says stuff like "wait and see," a lot of us assume they know exactly what's going on with SEE and his issues because battles against SLKR squads and solo SLKR illustrate them, and of course a new meta character--A GALACTIC LEGEND!--would be expected to have a good chance of beating existing meta squads at least on offense.

    If you are looking for a statement that SEE should or should not directly counter SLKR, I'm afraid you may not get that kind of statement.

    If we are approaching a r-p-s type meta, then there will always be a chance that there is one team that may not directly or reliably beat another.

    Also, SLKR and Rey were 100% equal according to SWGOH.GG, so this was not just a SLKR meta.

    I'm not sure why wait and see, would mean anything other than they are waiting and looking at what's going on. There is no way they can just know everything that is going to happen when they release a toon. They can make estimations based on testing, but the playerbase at large will always get way more done in a short period of time then they ever could.

    I get that none of this is what you want to hear, but it is the situation we are in, and anything that you see as supporting your thoughts on how current state and what you see as wrong is always a good idea to put out there. It can't hurt, and it can only help.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    When there is a large sentiment of disappointment from so many people that have unlocked him, when he seemingly doesn't live up to the pre-release description, or to the expectations set by other Galactic Legends, then there is clearly an issue.

    This is where communication is so important. People have invested a lot into the character, and all we get is "we're keeping an eye on things"? This isn't great customer service. I don't expect full details on a rework, but addressing some of the concerns directly, and how intentional the design decisions are, could go a long way to easing player frustrations.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Now we have about 14k Kylo and 14 k Rey toons, about 2500 JML charachters on arena, smth about 350 SEE. Reasons for such poor SEE's farming:
    1) Arena consists of SLKR and Rey, plus some JML, See doesn't reliably counter SLKR at all, only with Help of Vader, that means it's Vader counter mostly, so See loses 50 per cent of his profitableness due to enumarous SLKR. Even we beat for example JML, we need one more attempt to leave ANOTHER team, as Papl is awful for defense.
    2) We need to use toons like Sion, Malak etc for SEE to somehow counter some Gl teams, and it breaks old teams like Triumvirate, or Empire or DRevan team, tha't all we have regarding Sith class. Just Remember old Gls where you farmed units and used them in most cases.
    3) He is useful for Dark Geo, but all in all we should take some units from already well-established teams.
    Moreover we have many other goods teams like Droids, Nightsisters, Bounty Huntes, Empire etc, and Dark Geo is now not a problem, and is not reliably justification for spent resouces for Palp
    4).Papl is not very good at Sith Raid
    5).Event for siths Tier 3 which is quite complicated can be covered without Legend SEE,
    Conclusion: Palp is usefull for Dark Geo, but that's not a problem now at all to play without him, Palp is bad on defense at all for GAC, TW as can be SOLOED by SLKR
    Just kind reminder "CG_SBCrumb - we want to avoid scenarious where a team performes better when UNDERSIZED or lower investment".
    Palp is more or less good againt Rey and Luke, but what about Dark Side teams, his damage is really low, on multiple videos we have already seen how bad he is not only with basic damage against SLKR, but even against Vader and Fallen Bastila, 30 k damage is just a joke.
    All in All, now numbers of Papl is low due to mentioned reason, if Papl doesn't get buffs, there will be NO SOLID REASON to farm him.
  • Kyno
    27516 posts Moderator
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    When there is a large sentiment of disappointment from so many people that have unlocked him, when he seemingly doesn't live up to the pre-release description, or to the expectations set by other Galactic Legends, then there is clearly an issue.

    This is where communication is so important. People have invested a lot into the character, and all we get is "we're keeping an eye on things"? This isn't great customer service. I don't expect full details on a rework, but addressing some of the concerns directly, and how intentional the design decisions are, could go a long way to easing player frustrations.

    If you feel that way, then please feel free to post some supporting things to back this up, they are looking for why and what is going on. This will go a long way to them making an educated decision or allow any one trying to push for a change the ammunition they need.

    All they are doing at this point keeping an eye on things, they dont have a rework going or anything like that to talk about, that is likely why we do not have a statement towards that end.

    If they are keeping an eye on things, I'm not sure why they would also be coming out here to "defend" his current state or design. That would seem counterintuitive to that endeavor and would also increase frustration, not alleviate it.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    When there is a large sentiment of disappointment from so many people that have unlocked him, when he seemingly doesn't live up to the pre-release description, or to the expectations set by other Galactic Legends, then there is clearly an issue.

    This is where communication is so important. People have invested a lot into the character, and all we get is "we're keeping an eye on things"? This isn't great customer service. I don't expect full details on a rework, but addressing some of the concerns directly, and how intentional the design decisions are, could go a long way to easing player frustrations.

    If you feel that way, then please feel free to post some supporting things to back this up, they are looking for why and what is going on. This will go a long way to them making an educated decision or allow any one trying to push for a change the ammunition they need.

    All they are doing at this point keeping an eye on things, they dont have a rework going or anything like that to talk about, that is likely why we do not have a statement towards that end.

    If they are keeping an eye on things, I'm not sure why they would also be coming out here to "defend" his current state or design. That would seem counterintuitive to that endeavor and would also increase frustration, not alleviate it.

    We have many videos regarding SLKR soloing Palp, sorry just to know the position of DEVs regarding this, as i have mentioned above, it was CG statement regarding undersized squads, Now we see that it's ok that Palp cannot counter SLKR, and SLKR can solo Palp.
  • Ripperpa wrote: »
    s9om1klui6q0.jpg

    Yeah the new gls are really bad...

    Watch him drop like a rock.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    I can just say that Kylo is cheaper for investment than Palp with 15 toons + Triumvirate+Darth Revan Team.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Ripperpa wrote: »
    s9om1klui6q0.jpg

    Yeah the new gls are really bad...

    Watch him drop like a rock.
    i have also 1 maybe 2 Ultimate Palps, they don't even close to top 3
    Plus this Dark Omega has already SLKR as far as i remember his profile. Having SLKR there is no problem to have SEE and hold top

  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Ripperpa wrote: »
    s9om1klui6q0.jpg

    Yeah the new gls are really bad...

    Watch him drop like a rock.




  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    By the way, last video with recommeded 4 tanks squad is just smashed by Kylo

  • I’ll just add - if you’re using the full Triuvirate with SEE, you’re not really breaking up a Triumvirate team.

    Other than that, I appreciate the more videos and the relays from Kyno.
  • Kyno
    27516 posts Moderator
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    When there is a large sentiment of disappointment from so many people that have unlocked him, when he seemingly doesn't live up to the pre-release description, or to the expectations set by other Galactic Legends, then there is clearly an issue.

    This is where communication is so important. People have invested a lot into the character, and all we get is "we're keeping an eye on things"? This isn't great customer service. I don't expect full details on a rework, but addressing some of the concerns directly, and how intentional the design decisions are, could go a long way to easing player frustrations.

    If you feel that way, then please feel free to post some supporting things to back this up, they are looking for why and what is going on. This will go a long way to them making an educated decision or allow any one trying to push for a change the ammunition they need.

    All they are doing at this point keeping an eye on things, they dont have a rework going or anything like that to talk about, that is likely why we do not have a statement towards that end.

    If they are keeping an eye on things, I'm not sure why they would also be coming out here to "defend" his current state or design. That would seem counterintuitive to that endeavor and would also increase frustration, not alleviate it.

    We have many videos regarding SLKR soloing Palp, sorry just to know the position of DEVs regarding this, as i have mentioned above, it was CG statement regarding undersized squads, Now we see that it's ok that Palp cannot counter SLKR, and SLKR can solo Palp.

    My perspective:

    The issues in the past with undersized squads has been when they perform better due to being undersized. I'm pretty sure that a full SLKR squad does just as good against SEE as an undermanned squad, right?

    There are also 3v5 comps for SLKR vs Rey, mostly used in GAC, but still.

    I'm not saying I wont ask, and I did before writing this. Just pointing out that it may not fit the same scenarios we have seen in the past.
  • dgree
    384 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    @Kyno Ok, thanks for the response.

    1) Re the biggest SEE issues: I'm not totally sure that counters are the most troubling thing to the community. Maybe this is the most vocal, but before all these dramatic videos came out, the main concern of SEE owners I knew (some of the first owners with the strongest Sith rosters) was that SEE had basically no chance of winning a face-to-face battle against SLKR, no matter how well they modded and regardless of SLKR mods. A lot of Sith squad setups are capable of defending against many of these counters (perhaps not all of them at once) even if SEE's weak leadership is used. But that goes to the heart of the issue--want to be able to fend off a decent counter? Stuff your SEE squad full of Sith Empire and it may work a bit better or worse compared to just DR lead with no SEE, but it will protect your SEE better. But in that case, what's the point of SEE there? A lot of GLs already have a few counters and afaik the GL owners are always mad about any counters, but generally people are okay with counters. They require good toons, often with Wat thrown in too, and don't hold up at all on defense. But getting a new GL and being incapable of beating stuff on offense even if you pack the squad with the best, best-modded and max-relic Sith in the game is a whole new level of crappy.

    2) The above gets to the rock-paper-scissors thing. First, as mentioned above, a new meta toon being so inept against an existing squad seems unprecedented and extreme, even if some GLs are supposed to be better or worse vs others. Getting the prot-drain gimmick that seems designed for JML is a high price to pay for SEE just being bad otherwise. It turns SEE into basically a very narrowly-applicable counter toon, and that's how we wound up with SEE having a little disappointing but workable damage vs Jedi specifically, but terrible damage in general. I don't know if that's an attempt at rock-paper-scissors, but it seems a far cry from rock paper scissors.

    Second, I get that the overall report says 50/50, but that's not the case as the shards get newer. Everyone knows SLKR is an absolute beast and crushes every raid, challenge, and battle he can be used in. Younger shards (even older than 3 years old, which is somehow considered young) are less likely to even have JTR in the first place or to have been ready for a GL when they came out, and so overwhelmingly went for SLKR--and that can be expected to continue considering many have been working on SLKR already, plus JML's high cost for these new players and how bad SEE is. So SEE is supposed to scavenge for Rey battles that SEE can win with some difficulty, and jump around SLKR, or else counter SLKR (perhaps the most expensive team to counter) as if the player has no GL. Then, after breaking through the SLKR walls, hopefully getting a JML battle at the top which SEE makes a bit easier. Then dropping overnight down past all the hungry SLKR squads sick of battling each other. It's familiar: the life of an old meta squad, not a new meta squad. For SLKR owners, we already see this: they generally climb with SLKR, and defend with SLKR, using SEE a couple times for novelty or as a counter squad, rather than as a meta squad.

    In other words, SEE isn't so useful in arena, not compared to the other new GL or even compared to existing GLs. And he can't solo HSTR, nor is he needed in TB. And he's not that great in the Sith/FO assault battles (EP is better). So, sure, I guess if he's supposed to get obliterated by SLKR, CG probably wouldn't expressly announce it. But he has to excel somewhere, right? Hopefully that's something we do get to hear about, and I think that's what's really missing.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Actually I don't mention that Palp without Ultimate is just ZERO, if CG's position regarding SEE's current state is ok, please just tell us and we will stop farming him,
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    SiStibbs wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    So from their end they are still watching and examining what's going on, as they said.

    When there is a large sentiment of disappointment from so many people that have unlocked him, when he seemingly doesn't live up to the pre-release description, or to the expectations set by other Galactic Legends, then there is clearly an issue.

    This is where communication is so important. People have invested a lot into the character, and all we get is "we're keeping an eye on things"? This isn't great customer service. I don't expect full details on a rework, but addressing some of the concerns directly, and how intentional the design decisions are, could go a long way to easing player frustrations.

    If you feel that way, then please feel free to post some supporting things to back this up, they are looking for why and what is going on. This will go a long way to them making an educated decision or allow any one trying to push for a change the ammunition they need.

    All they are doing at this point keeping an eye on things, they dont have a rework going or anything like that to talk about, that is likely why we do not have a statement towards that end.

    If they are keeping an eye on things, I'm not sure why they would also be coming out here to "defend" his current state or design. That would seem counterintuitive to that endeavor and would also increase frustration, not alleviate it.

    We have many videos regarding SLKR soloing Palp, sorry just to know the position of DEVs regarding this, as i have mentioned above, it was CG statement regarding undersized squads, Now we see that it's ok that Palp cannot counter SLKR, and SLKR can solo Palp.

    My perspective:

    The issues in the past with undersized squads has been when they perform better due to being undersized. I'm pretty sure that a full SLKR squad does just as good against SEE as an undermanned squad, right?

    There are also 3v5 comps for SLKR vs Rey, mostly used in GAC, but still.

    I'm not saying I wont ask, and I did before writing this. Just pointing out that it may not fit the same scenarios we have seen in the past.

    Thank you a lot for response, i see the point, abandoning SEE and farming both old Gls seems best idea, CG seems ready that people won't farm SEE in such amounts as JML/REY/SLKR due to mentioned facts by me. Actually we even see now how low is the number of SEE, ok, thank you.
  • Kyno
    27516 posts Moderator
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno Ok, thanks for the response.

    1) Re the biggest SEE issues: I'm not totally sure that counters are the most troubling thing to the community. Maybe this is the most vocal, but before all these dramatic videos came out, the main concern of SEE owners I knew (some of the first owners with the strongest Sith rosters) was that SEE had basically no chance of winning a face-to-face battle against SLKR, no matter how well they modded and regardless of SLKR mods. A lot of Sith squad setups are capable of defending against many of these counters (perhaps not all of them at once) even if SEE's weak leadership is used. But that goes to the heart of the issue--want to be able to fend off a decent counter? Stuff your SEE squad full of Sith Empire and it may work a bit better or worse compared to just DR lead with no SEE, but it will protect your SEE better. But in that case, what's the point of SEE there? A lot of GLs already have a few counters and afaik the GL owners are always mad about any counters, but generally people are okay with counters. They require good toons, often with Wat thrown in too, and don't hold up at all on defense. But getting a new GL and being incapable of beating stuff on offense even if you pack the squad with the best, best-modded and max-relic Sith in the game is a whole new level of crappy.

    2) The above gets to the rock-paper-scissors thing. First, as mentioned above, a new meta toon being so inept against an existing squad seems unprecedented and extreme, even if some GLs are supposed to be better or worse vs others. Getting the prot-drain gimmick that seems designed for JML is a high price to pay for SEE just being bad otherwise. It turns SEE into basically a very narrowly-applicable counter toon, and that's how we wound up with SEE having a little disappointing but workable damage vs Jedi specifically, but terrible damage in general. I don't know if that's an attempt at rock-paper-scissors, but it seems a far cry from rock paper scissors.

    Second, I get that the overall report says 50/50, but that's not the case as the shards get newer. Everyone knows SLKR is an absolute beast and crushes every raid, challenge, and battle he can be used in. Younger shards are less likely to even have JTR in the first place or to have been ready for a GL when they came out, and so overwhelmingly went for SLKR--and that can be expected to continue considering many have been working on SLKR already, plus JML's high cost for these new players and how bad SEE is. So SEE is supposed to scavenge for Rey battles that SEE can win with some difficulty, and jump around SLKR, or else counter SLKR (perhaps the most expensive team to counter) as if the player has no GL. Then, after breaking through the SLKR walls, hopefully getting a JML battle at the top which SEE makes a bit easier. Then dropping overnight down past all the hungry SLKR squads sick of battling each other. It's familiar: the life of an old meta squad, not a new meta squad. For SLKR owners, we already see this: they generally climb with SLKR, and defend with SLKR, using SEE a couple times for novelty or as a counter squad, rather than as a meta squad.

    In other words, SEE isn't so useful in arena, not compared to the other new GL or even compared to existing GLs. And he can't solo HSTR, nor is he needed in TB. And he's not that great in the Sith/FO assault battles (EP is better). So, sure, I guess if he's supposed to get obliterated by SLKR, CG probably wouldn't expressly announce it. But he has to excel somewhere, right? Hopefully that's something we do get to hear about, and I think that's what's really missing.

    1) you seem to be putting your own criteria into the situation. We have also never had a release where they specifically stayed they would be on par with the previous batch.

    If you wanted him specifically to beat SLKR, then that would be your choice, that you thought he was the correct tool to do that. I dont think they ever stated that, and I wouldnt expect then to, one way or the other. There are too many variables involved.

    The counter thing was the initial explosion, and as I said other points were brought up, and they made the statement about keeping an eye on it.

    Since then specific examples have been posted and that is what I have been pushing over to them.

    2) this is not a new meta, this was never intended to supplant the current meta in the same way as the past. They were stated to be on par.

    IMO, you are trying to beat paper with rock and saying it doesnt work, and it's a far cry from R-P-S.

    I am also not saying this is a perfect or ideal RPS system, but it's like that, where we have more than just 1 team that can win, we have situational teams that can win situationally. And most of that is based on mods and team comp.

    It seems the main focus is on arena, and saying he is not useful there, so hes not useful. GAC and TW, are also game modes, and depth is going to matter there, being able to bring in another offensive team could be useful to players. DS TB is a use for him and as you pointed out, there are younger players (you pointed at younger shards), and yes they would need another powerful DS option.

    I'm not arguing that they shouldnt change things if he is not fitting the bill, but you seem to have some very specific things you want him to do, and to some extent I would say that his kit was not designed to. Yes I would agree that he seems like a novel kit and that does push him more towards specific purposes. I'm not sure if that was the intent, but all we can do is post our thoughts/examples and let the process play out.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    JML is best arena team now, ok, but many new players don't have Hoda and Wampa. To have them they should spent a year to farm from start. So new players are not in very good position, SEE is not good for arena, only if you already have SLKR, if no the only choice is to farm SLKR. New players are just doomed to farm him, because it's crazy to farm 2 toons one YEAR from the start.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Solutions i see, farm SLKR or just wait a year for better investment
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
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  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
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  • dgree
    384 posts Member
    @Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    Being less than useless in a TW is something. Maybe he really is just a TW counter team guy, although it looks like to even serve that purpose he has to cannibalize the best Sith who are already used for GL counter squads. But maybe that's his value and purpose. Yet I hope it's clear that people who invested in SEE often had expectations based on the current meta combined with the developer insights, and I think it would help a lot if there was some forthrightness and clarity regarding the intent behind this character's value.
  • dgree
    384 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Xagen wrote: »
    Solutions i see, farm SLKR or just wait a year for better investment

    Bingo. SLKR provides even Sith-focused competitive players with the opportunity to use the "SEE squad" (SE or Triumvirate) without SEE since he doesn't help much, while having SLKR and all the great things he does in every game mode. That's why people who only own SEE are heartbroken, people who have SLKR + SEE are disappointed, and people who have 3-4 GLs just don't seem to care since they have everything else anyway and when something better down the line comes along they'll get that too.

    But something better is gonna come along, and you risk missing the good stuff, so whether you get SLKR or wait isn't an easy call either.
  • Ripperpa wrote: »
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    Yeah the new gls are really bad...

    Now time how long it takes for that guy at rank 2 to drop back down into the 100's

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    140K on a Basic when ignoring defense AND dealing 150% more dmg after 4 minutes of stacking mastery. If that isnt poodoo I dont know what is.

    Now put those mods on SLKR or Rey
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    @Kyno When we farmed Galactic Republic and Droids we receive GAS, great for arena, for Light Geo, even for Sith Raid till Kylo was buffed, farming Knight Revan and Drevan we received Malak, useful almost everywhere, farming 13 toons we received Kylo, Rey. Rey is good for arena, TW, GA, Light Geo. But farming 15 toons we received i believe not so much. Dark Geo for young shards, TW and GA and specifically for offense, as for defense he is not good enough, that's all, nothing more.........seems not very much for spent resources comparing with mentioned old toons.
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