SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • As he stands, I’d be happy if they simply removes the damage restriction on shock from ls deceived enemies to all deceived enemies and got us to his ult special quicker after the first time. Extra offence or quicker stacking Mastery would be a bonus and link sucks but what can you do. I feel like any stat boosting attack wise or extra survivability will come from future Sith brought into the game.
  • Decado wrote: »
    @Hermitthedruid So youve been saying all along that SEE is fine and doesnt need a buff?
    Lets break this down then. Currently
    - Offensive 'powerhouse'
    - Defensive liability
    - Bad at raids
    - On par at TB
    - AB value is irrelevant tbh. Rey doesnt have one. Theres a comp with SEE that can beat it, but he doesnt need to be used to do so. JML isnt needed for the Jedi one either, JKL lead does the heavy lifting.

    Pre-Armorer SEE was good on offense yes. Still had a pretty rough go for beating SLKR, so I wouldnt really say he did much better than any other GL on offense, though was just ahead of everyone else due to SEE/Wat beating some Reys and all the JMLs.

    Post-Armorer there is no doubt or reason to say he is not the hands down strongest offensive character in the game. So strong it essentially makes him valuable enough there to cover for his weaknesses in my opinion.

    Are you really going to do the "I told you so" thing when his weaknesses are only being negated by fantastic performance after a marquee was released about 4 months after SEE was? Like.....dude....what kind of logic is that? Does the release of Armorer make his last 4 months magically better? Do I get my money back for unlocking SEE 3 months before Armorer was released making him a good character?

    As is, there is no way to justify and changes that end up buffing SEE, whether they be outright buffs or changes to his mechanics unless they gate Armorer to not work with him, like making her LS or Mando restricted which would make a hell of a lot of sense. SEE is in a pretty good spot even if I hate the way they did it, and hate playing battles with Tank Tech or Beskar Armor.

    Relax bro, lol, I was just gloating about Lord Dunbar changing his mind about SEE, that’s all.

    But since you brought it up, SEE has performed great for everyone in my shard chat leading up to the Armorer, so no, not everyone was disappointed by SEE pre-Armorer. Iirc, CG seems to think so too, given what Kyno relayed to us.😛

    Fair enough. Misread that then.

    No one in my shard was happy with SEE. Non-SEE owners were pretty much laughing at him being so bad. I think CGs stance is likely more complicated than 'agrees with me because no changes' given that unlike us, they knew what was in the Armorers kit and when she was going to be released. Theyd look absolutely stupid if they released changes to buff SEE and then dropped her on top of that. Personally I dont expect anything further from them without throwing a nerf in somewhere.
  • Decado
    99 posts Member
    edited January 24
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    And they are....because he IS a GL. Yes, we are aware.

    Unless I have missed a video of a full Geo team beating an SEE team.

    No mods so probably not reliable, but hey, you asked.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=-5OxFvXX7Vw&ab_channel=SFLordStarkiller
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    JML lead doesnt need Wat. JKR lead is used more because its probably the second best leadership in the game, right after SLKR.
    SEE lead doesnt do anything for his team aside from the speed buff. 5% stacking mastery amounts to nothing. The heal from defeated allies is extremely lackluster, since it literally does nothing against teams who focuses on single target damage and isnt even that helpfull against teams with big AoEs since your teammates get no survivability at all and so many times gets killed as a group. The only reason people use SEE lead is because he needs it to reach his ultimate, which (unlike JML) hes practically useless without. This is the reason why the best SEE teams we see now are essentially SEE solos with Wat or armorer, since putting any sith with SEE is a futile effort. While JML is by no means perfect and should be tweaked to be the go to leader for is team, SEEs design as a sith is a complete and utter failure.

    SEE is not "a complete and utter failure". When you put it like that, nobody will take it seriously. Rather, he's a bit lacklustre in several areas and needs some tweaks to give him real strength. Nothing huge, he just needs to be properly viable.

    I think you missed "design as a sith" that came right before that statement, which I stand wholeheartedly by.

    You think I somehow missed that SEE is supposed to be a sith leader? I have nearly every sith at r7, the only one I don't have at relic levels is SET, and let me tell you SEE has been a relatively good lead for sith, and he does bring quite a bit to literally any sith you put him with. It's just that he could, and therefore should be better. He's not terrible. He's just lacking. And he still definitely needs some sort of fix.
    Ive got every sith reliced, including SET, and have Traya, Sion, Vader, Malak, Sidious, Marauder and EP R7, and i cant think of any sith that gets a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership aside from the speed boost.
    It's not just about who gets what boost from the lead. SEE lead with Triumvirate is superior to Traya teams, even if the Triumvirate itself synergises better under Traya lead.

    In most top-end TWs SEE is the wildcard at this point, whether he is set on defense or held for offense can determine the outcone of the war if the opponent just guesses wrong how you plan to use your SEE.

    SEE lead with Triumverate is better than Traya teams because theres a GL in it. If it wasnt then boy would he have issues. Hell, Geonosians actually do better against SEE lead Triumverate than Traya lead.

    I've seen some strange and "unique" points in this thread, but "if SEE wasn't a GL he'd be less good" is certainly a new spin. I agree - SEE is better as a GL than he would be if he wasn't a GL.

    I'm not really sure what that even means, but I'll give you that.

    SEE teams with Triumverate have a GL character in them, Triumverate teams without SEE doesnt have a GL character in them. Teams with GL characters are supposed to be better than teams without GL characters. Want me to be even more explicit?

    And they are....because he IS a GL. Yes, we are aware.

    Unless I have missed a video of a full Geo team beating an SEE team.

    Good to see youre getting up to date.



    Btw Geos are at 2:20
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    JML lead doesnt need Wat. JKR lead is used more because its probably the second best leadership in the game, right after SLKR.
    SEE lead doesnt do anything for his team aside from the speed buff. 5% stacking mastery amounts to nothing. The heal from defeated allies is extremely lackluster, since it literally does nothing against teams who focuses on single target damage and isnt even that helpfull against teams with big AoEs since your teammates get no survivability at all and so many times gets killed as a group. The only reason people use SEE lead is because he needs it to reach his ultimate, which (unlike JML) hes practically useless without. This is the reason why the best SEE teams we see now are essentially SEE solos with Wat or armorer, since putting any sith with SEE is a futile effort. While JML is by no means perfect and should be tweaked to be the go to leader for is team, SEEs design as a sith is a complete and utter failure.

    SEE is not "a complete and utter failure". When you put it like that, nobody will take it seriously. Rather, he's a bit lacklustre in several areas and needs some tweaks to give him real strength. Nothing huge, he just needs to be properly viable.

    I think you missed "design as a sith" that came right before that statement, which I stand wholeheartedly by.

    You think I somehow missed that SEE is supposed to be a sith leader? I have nearly every sith at r7, the only one I don't have at relic levels is SET, and let me tell you SEE has been a relatively good lead for sith, and he does bring quite a bit to literally any sith you put him with. It's just that he could, and therefore should be better. He's not terrible. He's just lacking. And he still definitely needs some sort of fix.

    Tell me any sith in the game that gains a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership, or work better under SEE than other Sith leaders. Triumverate work 5 times better under Traya or EP lead, Vader works way better under EP or his own lead, Drevan works better under his own lead and EP lead and bastilla works better under Drevan and EP. Sion literally gets nerfed under SEE.
    A R7 tank will get 5000 protection from the 50% mastery in his leadership, and an additional 550 every time an enemy uses an ability. Seeing how easy it is to reach 100 k protection with most tanks, a straight up 15% protection boost at the start of the game would be 10 times more usefull. Most good sith like Drevan and nihlius dont even get any meaningfull stats from mastery, and Drevan have no dmg outside of Drevan lead regardless. As Ive mentioned earlier the heal from defeated enemies is useless against teams focusing on single target dmg, and doesnt help all that much against teams with big AoEs either since youll lose multiple characters at once due to them not getting any survivability.
    Ive got every sith reliced, including SET, and have Traya, Sion, Vader, Malak, Sidious, Marauder and EP R7, and i cant think of any sith that gets a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership aside from the speed boost.

    Yeah, well it's more than a wee protection boost you know. I don't know if you ever used DR outside of his own lead, but if you did, you would discover that DRs damage is crap. Without the mechanics of his own lead, he just can't do any damage. Except with SEE. His damage is decent with SEE. That means that sith that already hits hard on their lonesome, like say Vader or Marauder, will hit even higher under SEE lead. Then there's the 40 speed boost, which while a generic speed boost, it's a speed boost. Even Maul is fun under SEE. He gets to go nearly often!

    SEE lead just needs a couple of small tweaks, possibly with some new awesome sith toon for us to farm. Stop saying he's utter crap and this and that because he's really not. He just needs a little touch up. And the need is still just as great as if he was terrible. He's a "galactic legend" and he's supposed to be amazing.
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    JML lead doesnt need Wat. JKR lead is used more because its probably the second best leadership in the game, right after SLKR.
    SEE lead doesnt do anything for his team aside from the speed buff. 5% stacking mastery amounts to nothing. The heal from defeated allies is extremely lackluster, since it literally does nothing against teams who focuses on single target damage and isnt even that helpfull against teams with big AoEs since your teammates get no survivability at all and so many times gets killed as a group. The only reason people use SEE lead is because he needs it to reach his ultimate, which (unlike JML) hes practically useless without. This is the reason why the best SEE teams we see now are essentially SEE solos with Wat or armorer, since putting any sith with SEE is a futile effort. While JML is by no means perfect and should be tweaked to be the go to leader for is team, SEEs design as a sith is a complete and utter failure.

    SEE is not "a complete and utter failure". When you put it like that, nobody will take it seriously. Rather, he's a bit lacklustre in several areas and needs some tweaks to give him real strength. Nothing huge, he just needs to be properly viable.

    I think you missed "design as a sith" that came right before that statement, which I stand wholeheartedly by.

    You think I somehow missed that SEE is supposed to be a sith leader? I have nearly every sith at r7, the only one I don't have at relic levels is SET, and let me tell you SEE has been a relatively good lead for sith, and he does bring quite a bit to literally any sith you put him with. It's just that he could, and therefore should be better. He's not terrible. He's just lacking. And he still definitely needs some sort of fix.

    Tell me any sith in the game that gains a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership, or work better under SEE than other Sith leaders. Triumverate work 5 times better under Traya or EP lead, Vader works way better under EP or his own lead, Drevan works better under his own lead and EP lead and bastilla works better under Drevan and EP. Sion literally gets nerfed under SEE.
    A R7 tank will get 5000 protection from the 50% mastery in his leadership, and an additional 550 every time an enemy uses an ability. Seeing how easy it is to reach 100 k protection with most tanks, a straight up 15% protection boost at the start of the game would be 10 times more usefull. Most good sith like Drevan and nihlius dont even get any meaningfull stats from mastery, and Drevan have no dmg outside of Drevan lead regardless. As Ive mentioned earlier the heal from defeated enemies is useless against teams focusing on single target dmg, and doesnt help all that much against teams with big AoEs either since youll lose multiple characters at once due to them not getting any survivability.
    Ive got every sith reliced, including SET, and have Traya, Sion, Vader, Malak, Sidious, Marauder and EP R7, and i cant think of any sith that gets a meaningfull boost from SEEs leadership aside from the speed boost.

    Yeah, well it's more than a wee protection boost you know. I don't know if you ever used DR outside of his own lead, but if you did, you would discover that DRs damage is crap. Without the mechanics of his own lead, he just can't do any damage. Except with SEE. His damage is decent with SEE. That means that sith that already hits hard on their lonesome, like say Vader or Marauder, will hit even higher under SEE lead. Then there's the 40 speed boost, which while a generic speed boost, it's a speed boost. Even Maul is fun under SEE. He gets to go nearly often!

    SEE lead just needs a couple of small tweaks, possibly with some new awesome sith toon for us to farm. Stop saying he's utter crap and this and that because he's really not. He just needs a little touch up. And the need is still just as great as if he was terrible. He's a "galactic legend" and he's supposed to be amazing.

    R7 Marauder and Revan gets 550 offense from the 50% Mastery, and a baffling 80 offense every time an enemy uses an ability! Thats not considering their dmg multipliers. They also get a bunch of Accuracy to help them beat Ahsoka lead NS. Try running any of those sith under Vader, or hell even Siduous lead, and their dmg will be significantly higher (although I doubt Drevan will do any meaningfull dmg regardless). Marauders kit is so basic that he has to basic for 100k + to even be worth considering, which is exactly why no one used him before Drevan came along.
  • urcogm9hdldt.jpg

    My Drevan is only R4, so at R7 I might reach 15k!
  • Yeah Drevans damage is trash under SEE. I was using SE under him until I’ve now relic’d triumvirate. He’d have benefited from either damage increase for the team OR a lot more survivability. He only has the speed boost as anything meaningful from his lead.
  • “Every time an enemy is inflicted with Deceived, Sith allies gain 2% Offence (stacking).

    Would be so easy to give them steadily increasing offence as opposed to a lump sum at the beginning. Fits thematically as well.
  • LeeB
    54 posts Member
    @CG_Doja_Fett any news on the data? Was it presented? Any form of update even if no update to keep the peace :)
  • Mandalor219
    21 posts Member
    edited January 24
    Short question

    What helps against a bastilla lead team, with wat?
    I can't reduce jml shield.

    Tried han already...but nothing helps...it's always time-out and sometimes I loose. But no chance of winning.
    Post edited by Mandalor219 on
  • Konju
    574 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)
  • LeeB
    54 posts Member
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t
  • TVF
    27422 posts Member
    LeeB wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    Rey is way better with Jedi.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    LeeB wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    Rey is way better with Jedi.

    Does she synergize with them? No. Jedi are just bonkers, and JKL and GAS are essentialy GL 0.5.
  • TVF
    27422 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    LeeB wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    Rey is way better with Jedi.

    Does she synergize with them? No.

    Thanks for agreeing with me.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    LeeB wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    Rey is way better with Jedi.

    Does she synergize with them? No.

    Thanks for agreeing with me.

    Thanks for agreeing with what LeeB said.
  • TVF
    27422 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    LeeB wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    Rey is way better with Jedi.

    Does she synergize with them? No.

    Thanks for agreeing with me.

    Thanks for agreeing with what LeeB said.
    every other GL had synergy with there group

    It's clear to me there's no reason to respond to you further.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    LeeB wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    Rey is way better with Jedi.

    Does she synergize with them? No.

    Thanks for agreeing with me.

    Thanks for agreeing with what LeeB said.
    every other GL had synergy with there group

    It's clear to me there's no reason to respond to you further.

    Its clear to me youre just here to belittle, yet Im still trying to have a civil discussion. F me, right?
  • TVF
    27422 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    LeeB wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Konju wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    ZeTwitch wrote: »
    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    Rey is way better with Jedi.

    Does she synergize with them? No.

    Thanks for agreeing with me.

    Thanks for agreeing with what LeeB said.
    every other GL had synergy with there group

    It's clear to me there's no reason to respond to you further.

    Its clear to me youre just here to belittle, yet Im still trying to have a civil discussion. F me, right?

    Please don't put words in my mouth. You are choosing to ignore my point, so I'm going to move on. Good luck with SEE if you have him.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
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    There’s a lot more data on The Armorer now and it’s clear she has a big impact on SEE’s PVP viability. I still hope they adjust the IT counter and the GL solo issue. I think it’s important for SEE to have reliable counters , but I would appreciate a little RNG thrown in. It’s strange that a light side toon from a completely different faction works so well with him. It seems a bit silly running the two together, but then again I guess Rey works well with Malak so?

    If this was a dark side toon that worked specifically with SEE *cough General Pryde *cough and he had been part of SEE’s requirements I think a lot of us would have been thrilled.

    Completely agree. It's ridiculous that The Armourer (an LS character and Mandalorian) works better with SEE than characters from his own faction.

    People really don't remember the days when faction squads did not dominate the meta. Titans, anyone? Who cares what you have to use in a team. If it works, it works.

    I remember it perfectly well but the trend over the last couple of years or so has been faction-based. I think the GLs should represent the best of their faction and for their squad to be faction based.

    Perhaps you don't. To each, their own.

    To each their own, sure.

    Calling it "ridiculous" is not the same as saying "I wish factions were more important but to each their own.

    No, I think it is ridiculous that a light side Mandalorian is more use to SEE than any of his own faction. I'm perfectly happy to choose my own words, thanks.

    Interesting. Were you also complaining this hard about Wat always being needed in JKR/JML squads too? Or that JML isn't even the best leader for his own faction? Or the TW Rey defense teams that often feature Malak? You're not new. This is the way. And you know it.

    Okay I’ll bite.

    What JML teams *needed* Wat?
    Only all the ones at the top : https://swgoh.gg/stats/meta-report/1/#squads.
    It's the most common comp by a significant margin. That's not sarcasm - it's fact.

    I said “need” not “uses”. Surely you’re not suggesting that a JML without Wat can’t beat almost every other team on that list.

    Once again Wat is used because it makes the team better. He isn’t “needed”.

    Yep, scanned my top 20. 13 are JML only 1 has Wat.

    After you've been presented with the global arena data, I don't see why you are reducing it back to anectodal. If you have a refutation, you should do it with the data avaliable to all of us and which is thousand folds more representative than your shard.

    It's anecdote, sure doesnt make it untrue or irrelevant though. The meta report also shows that JML does really well without Wat so it's not as clear cut as inferred.

    Let's look where SEE in the meta report - the actual point of this thread.

    I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this thread. And, most have already agreed in this thread that SEE is very solid on offense in squad arena.

    So what was the point of this thread then? Genuine question.
    It seems, based on the thread title, that some think SEE needs a buff.

    Is PvP offense the only aspect to this game for which SEE should be judged? What about PvP defense? How about PvE?

    IMO, link still allows for solos and duos to defeat SEE on defense, there are tweaks that could definitely help in this regard.

    He's an attacker. His tag says it and usage shows that's how he is most effective. Why are so many people in this thread obsessed about how an attacker holds on defense? In GAC and TW he is best used on offense. With just Wat he can get more banners than many other JML or Rey counters. Even in squad arena, in the right comps, he holds well vs. JML and Rey.

    If we want to reduce this thread down to raids only, then I would agree - he is the weakest of the 4 GLs and could use a raid tweak. But raids are only part of the game.

    In arena, assuming I use 0 refreshes I can battle 5 times. I can be battled much more than 5 times (almost limitless), hence even for an offensive character, defensive viability definitely matters. You did point this out yourself with the Rey and JML holds. These issues will matter for players differently depending upon their rosters and arena shard. For someone with 3 GLs, SEE is pretty useful. For someone with 1 GL, maybe not as much.

    Rey doesn't hold the title of a good defender in terms of arena anymore, that's why people are migrating away from her to the degree there's much less of her than see now. You can try to get top po with Rey and tell us how it goes and what it cost.

    Unfortunately I cannot test that. I do not have Rey. I only have JML.

    You have people in the shard that does. If you actually think rey will hold better than see and is able to reach 1, costing less refills, you can ask them. Do you think that's the case?

    Sure, I battle Rey in the top 20 all the time, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. Certainly any of the 4 GLs can climb and any of the 4 can fall. My shard also coordinates so it’s pretty easy for anyone to get to the top. People will find better and worse arena viability with SEE based upon the shard and rosters.

    The fact he is climbing into the top does not surprise me. I have conceded that offensive viability increased from the Armorer release (SEE beats SLKR more reliably without destroying a few teams). Also, the large number of JMLs have created a space for SEE as Hermit had said potentially possible. But for example, my alt shard is full of SLKR and a few SEE. SEE can still climb but will fall easily. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is a real experience for some.

    I really only think that link needs a tweak at this point to hinder solos and duos.

    Yup, I've predicted the rise of jml will also cause the rise of see way back in the thread which was retorted as won't happen at the time.

    Meta is not something that happens in isolation, we've gotten single team metas in the past which was nothing close to fun. Now we have a multi pieced one. I don't doubt the experiences that you mention, there are also experiences which has trouble against phoenix. If see had more viability in the rest of the game and more people had it as a result, shards would be a minefield to climb using jml.

    Stats are the totality of this picture and in that picture see is preferred more than rey (even though the total rey's in existence is much more). We may end up seeing see surpass slkr before the next meta pieces arrive.

    You've been more present in this topic than me, I bet you are aware the argument has evolved from -see can't climb, loses to everyone but jml- to -see climbs fine, but it costs more and it can't defend-

    I think we agree. With the addition of the Armorer, SEE got a decent boost. Without the Armorer, SEE was in need of some assistance for SLKR matches imo. Raids are still poor performance, but the arguments for a buff are definitely smaller/shifted (though it’s too bad that months passed before the Armorer was available).

    I also wonder if switching to SEE instead of Rey allows for easier modding for those players. The comps with Rey vary a lot and it could simply be easier to just throw SEE in there and make GAC/TW modding more convenient. (Just a thought)

    I think the argument of better sith synergy is there, every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    Rey is way better with Jedi.

    Does she synergize with them? No.

    Thanks for agreeing with me.

    Thanks for agreeing with what LeeB said.
    every other GL had synergy with there group

    It's clear to me there's no reason to respond to you further.

    Its clear to me youre just here to belittle, yet Im still trying to have a civil discussion. F me, right?

    Please don't put words in my mouth. You are choosing to ignore my point, so I'm going to move on. Good luck with SEE if you have him.

    Id make a reply about how you completely ignored my point, but I wouldnt want to stop you on your way out of here.
  • Mandalor219
    21 posts Member
    edited January 24
    Rey gives all light side troops her full leadership bonus, that's why jedi work.
    SEE only give sith his full leadership, all other dark side gets 1/2.(would see gives all dark side his full leadership, that's would be funny ☺️ )
  • TVF
    27422 posts Member
    Rey gives all light side troops her full leadership bonus, that's why jedi work.
    SEE only give sith his full leadership, all other dark side gets 1/2.(would see gives all dark side his full leadership, that's would be funny ☺️ )
    every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Mandalor219
    21 posts Member
    edited January 24
    Yeah but how would rey works in arena if her bonus only works to resistance.

    And he works against Jedi, but everything else he sucks
  • People claiming see needs a buff are so wrong. Just because slkr win very easily. He is a monster against EVERY other gls. And bad in raids like every other gls except slkr. Be serious people.
  • Sithlords_Inc
    221 posts Member
    edited January 24
    TVF wrote: »
    Rey gives all light side troops her full leadership bonus, that's why jedi work.
    SEE only give sith his full leadership, all other dark side gets 1/2.(would see gives all dark side his full leadership, that's would be funny ☺️ )
    every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    eg2lbzfej3cc.jpg

    If only there was a faction that synergize with Inspired.
  • TVF wrote: »
    Rey gives all light side troops her full leadership bonus, that's why jedi work.
    SEE only give sith his full leadership, all other dark side gets 1/2.(would see gives all dark side his full leadership, that's would be funny ☺️ )
    every other GL had synergy with there group, SEE doesn’t

    eg2lbzfej3cc.jpg

    If only there was a faction that synergize with Inspired.

    Resistance ?
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