SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?

    We already showed the math.

    Let me clarify. Every time I said a number for speed or protection in prior posts, it was based on the swgoh.gg stats for the highest players. Meaning that I was calculating in the ideal environment, JML vs SEE with god mods, or Nihilus vs SEE for speed purposes, or Rey vs JML vs SLKR vs SEE for speed for fighting against the Wat comp.

    None of what I said was bull**** off the top of my head, I did my math with actual stats, so if you want me to show my math you can just go back and reread what I said about the math. That was actual ideally calculated evidence, and if you lowered it from "the highest speed" or "highest damage" SEE in the world, it only gets worse from there. So this math being the best-case scenario for SEE and still showing that he needs buffed is exactly the kind of evidence you've asked for, the pinnacle of the thread when combined with all our suggestions for what to change.

    I never said it was just off the top of your head.

    There are many factors that cant be "just calculated" which is why many times players asked for pics or video. Because "your math" needs to include both full teams, CD increases and decreases, accounting for any TM gained or turns given through other mechanics..... there is a lot more to it than the speed of a toons.

    I agree with the general sentiment of the statement but stand by my math since the question at hand was "Is there a team fast enough to prevent the Wat tech and get past JML autotaunt under Bast" to which the answer is a resounding no at high levels. If you're talking about lower levels of mods, then both teams have improvements to make so the evidence is irrelevant because they can always buff their speed or damage output to get Wat out faster. At the top level of gameplay, the math I did was good because no team comp could outdo that Wat comp under SEE unless Han and Chewie work together to kill Wat turn one. And in that case, SEE has lost two sith so his viability drops, and he loses if the rest of JML's team is titan jedi.

    So yes, normally it's not all about optimal speeds. But the question at hand was literally "isn't there a mod that can stop Wat?" No, he has a bonus turn and one of the highest non-GL speeds in the game. "Can't Han stop him?" Not without killing him first because the JML team will run enough circles to get Wat out before you anyway.

    Keep in mind that TM reduction was accounted for if you go look, and cooldown increases are irrelevant unless the opposing team can get someone out and targeting Wat before an autotaunting, AB'ing, breaching JML erases that possibility. So again....speed.

    You are mixing up the topics, this was about nihilus getting off 3 or more insta kills vs SEE.

    Not talking about the JML team we were discussing at a different point.
  • AlexanderG wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    It's not as disappointing as your arrival.

    Oh look at that, another sour **** that can't comment on the video but desperately needs attention.

    Here, take some 😉
  • In either the NS or the Annihilate things, I don't think we need to figure out the exact situation of whether SEE can put together an unstoppable defense against one specific counter or not, or things like that. The important aspect is what it highlights about SEE's weaknesses, and whether those weaknesses are appropriate or SEE has strengths that compensate for those weaknesses.

    For example, SLKR's ideal team isn't the best defense against the Sith Empire counter--rather than FO, SLKR with Malak and DR is practically impossible for Sith Empire to take down. But what a normal SEE vs SLKR battle (or vice versa) shows is that even the beatable SLKR squad is incredibly tricky to take down due to SLKR's strengths. SLKR has the initial murder stab turning it into a 4v5 and requiring a very strong pretaunt tank, there's a ton of damage, and either SLKR, FOST, or lobster can cleanse all the debuffs and then the whole FO squad has advantage, is crit immune, and get supercharged again. SLKR gets beefier and turns into a murder machine. It's a race to take him down before ultimate. You get a good idea of SLKR's strengths and weaknesses even if it's not the "ideal" defense squad vs a specific counter. And SLKR's mods don't really matter too much.

    It's good to know details, but we don't want to miss the forest for the trees either. The question is whether the pretty apparent weaknesses should be fixed, and/or SEE's "strengths" boosted. It seems to me that the NS video makes a fairly good case for looking at fixes 2 and 7 here. NS might still win vs certain SEE comps, but they wouldn't be able to cheese it by basically disabling ultimate charge, and Deceived not spreading much or doing much.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?

    We already showed the math.

    Let me clarify. Every time I said a number for speed or protection in prior posts, it was based on the swgoh.gg stats for the highest players. Meaning that I was calculating in the ideal environment, JML vs SEE with god mods, or Nihilus vs SEE for speed purposes, or Rey vs JML vs SLKR vs SEE for speed for fighting against the Wat comp.

    None of what I said was bull**** off the top of my head, I did my math with actual stats, so if you want me to show my math you can just go back and reread what I said about the math. That was actual ideally calculated evidence, and if you lowered it from "the highest speed" or "highest damage" SEE in the world, it only gets worse from there. So this math being the best-case scenario for SEE and still showing that he needs buffed is exactly the kind of evidence you've asked for, the pinnacle of the thread when combined with all our suggestions for what to change.

    I never said it was just off the top of your head.

    There are many factors that cant be "just calculated" which is why many times players asked for pics or video. Because "your math" needs to include both full teams, CD increases and decreases, accounting for any TM gained or turns given through other mechanics..... there is a lot more to it than the speed of a toons.

    I agree with the general sentiment of the statement but stand by my math since the question at hand was "Is there a team fast enough to prevent the Wat tech and get past JML autotaunt under Bast" to which the answer is a resounding no at high levels. If you're talking about lower levels of mods, then both teams have improvements to make so the evidence is irrelevant because they can always buff their speed or damage output to get Wat out faster. At the top level of gameplay, the math I did was good because no team comp could outdo that Wat comp under SEE unless Han and Chewie work together to kill Wat turn one. And in that case, SEE has lost two sith so his viability drops, and he loses if the rest of JML's team is titan jedi.

    So yes, normally it's not all about optimal speeds. But the question at hand was literally "isn't there a mod that can stop Wat?" No, he has a bonus turn and one of the highest non-GL speeds in the game. "Can't Han stop him?" Not without killing him first because the JML team will run enough circles to get Wat out before you anyway.

    Keep in mind that TM reduction was accounted for if you go look, and cooldown increases are irrelevant unless the opposing team can get someone out and targeting Wat before an autotaunting, AB'ing, breaching JML erases that possibility. So again....speed.

    You are mixing up the topics, this was about nihilus getting off 3 or more insta kills vs SEE.

    Not talking about the JML team we were discussing at a different point.

    The first time you asked for math and details was with the JML team.

    The Nihilus time, yes, there's a lot to account for, which is why we need testing, but we can get an average guesstimate that is in no way outlandish, especially when we give SEE all the possible benefit of the doubt. In that perfect world he can build over 10% ult charge per enemy turn by having a linked deceived enemy take a turn, and up to 10% if they attack out of turn. Meaning if every character takes one turn and one out of turn attack/mass swarm (which would be bad playing, but again we're really leaning into SEE getting all the good moves and RNG), and it's a full 5 person team, he'd get 40% from the linked targets, and 12% total from the other three. So it would only take 2 full rounds from the other team. If this is a GL team, they go twice per round of turns because they have double the speed of all the other toons, and are most definitely one of the links, so we add another 20% per round. So a single round of turns gains, in a perfect world 72% charge. This means it takes two turns to get his ult, and one more turn to use it. This is also assuming, somehow, that every enemy toon is deceived, so it's such a perfect scenario for SEE, it would literally never happen.

    For characters of average speed, so Nihilus, SEE will have ult before they get off three turns. In three of Nihilus' turns, if he also gets a perfect round, he will have several things go right to build an annihilate.
    1. The enemy team all gets hit with cooldown reduction, reducing annihilate from 8 to 3 right out of the gate, also occupying a turn to make it 2.
    2. Traya and Sion get hit with enough debuffs to give him 10% tm per time they're hit, but that's irrelevant because it most likely won't outspeed the other GL, he may get one extra turn before ult, though unlikely, but possible.
    3. He takes a normal turn, putting annihilate at 1 turn left for next turn. At this point, 2 turns in, SEE is likely to go into ult form shortly. How long after Nihilus depends on the tm gain, so let's say in a perfect world, Traya and Sion both get 1 debuff applied per round, so he's gained a total of 40% above his normal tm at this point.
    4. After SEE ults, Nihilus will get another turn which will put annihilate ready to fire next turn.
    5. SEE will get his instakill first, by about one turn, unless Traya and Sion were getting rocked with debuffs this whole time, and only if everyone started out as deceived, and only if a GL was one of the links.
    6. Nihilus however has no such restrictions and on turn 4, shortly after SEE has gone, he will insta.
    7. Since SEE requires a GL be linked to build this fast, we can assume even in this perfect scenario he only kills one with his ult, as does Nihilus, at around the same time.
    8. Now Nihilus will only take about the same amount of turns to build back, 4 or so, which is roughly 8 for SEE if we have minimal tm gain accounted for. Like I said, ideal for SEE.
    9. Except now, SEE has a 20 turn cooldown that can only be lowered by hitting someone who's deceived. If he only does that 8 times before Nihilus fires again, Nihilus will go his second turn before SEE. And every turn after that will be ahead of SEE.


    This math is assuming a perfect world for SEE and close to optimal circumstances for Nihilus. If we're talking a Rey team, Nihilus will get less tm because they likely won't debuff as often. If we're talking JML, Nihilus will be AB'd, but Traya cleanses and Nihilus will gain about 40% tm off the first efflux to balance all the tm reduction the rest of the team falls for, getting his first turn almost before SEE has a chance to do anything ult-charge related. If we're talking SLKR, realistically Nihilus dies from damage but the debuffs from an FO team are probably about the neutral amount I used the math for. So it's a good average scenario for Nihilus between the opposing GL's, and optimal (to the point of impossibility) parameters for SEE.


    And with this outlandishly optimistic SEE math, he still can't crank off insta-kills as fast as Nihilus. He has the benefit of living longer, so realistically he is better than Nihilus. But we're arguing the term "devastating attack" to which I say, Nihilus technically devastates more, according to the math.


    There's my math, based not on speculation, but concrete possibilities that even gave SEE a huge advantage. And he still loses the battle of devastating attacks.
  • Sithlords_Inc
    384 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Blake085 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    It's not as disappointing as your arrival.

    Oh look at that, another sour **** that can't comment on the video but desperately needs attention.

    Here, take some 😉

    Desperately needs attention? Kinda like you, trashing this thread because no one visits yours?
  • Blake085 wrote: »
    AlexanderG wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    It's not as disappointing as your arrival.

    Oh look at that, another sour **** that can't comment on the video but desperately needs attention.

    Here, take some 😉

    Desperately needs attention? Kinda like you, trashing this thread because no one visits yours?

    Nope, not at all, and I'm not thrashing this thread lol, actually I brought to your attention that there is a NS video where they beat SEE and the people actually discussing it got Kyno to pass it to the devs, so you're welcome 🤭
  • Heeeey, that video is by my guild leader... nice! But sad given the context of the video!
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?

    We already showed the math.

    Let me clarify. Every time I said a number for speed or protection in prior posts, it was based on the swgoh.gg stats for the highest players. Meaning that I was calculating in the ideal environment, JML vs SEE with god mods, or Nihilus vs SEE for speed purposes, or Rey vs JML vs SLKR vs SEE for speed for fighting against the Wat comp.

    None of what I said was bull**** off the top of my head, I did my math with actual stats, so if you want me to show my math you can just go back and reread what I said about the math. That was actual ideally calculated evidence, and if you lowered it from "the highest speed" or "highest damage" SEE in the world, it only gets worse from there. So this math being the best-case scenario for SEE and still showing that he needs buffed is exactly the kind of evidence you've asked for, the pinnacle of the thread when combined with all our suggestions for what to change.

    I never said it was just off the top of your head.

    There are many factors that cant be "just calculated" which is why many times players asked for pics or video. Because "your math" needs to include both full teams, CD increases and decreases, accounting for any TM gained or turns given through other mechanics..... there is a lot more to it than the speed of a toons.

    I agree with the general sentiment of the statement but stand by my math since the question at hand was "Is there a team fast enough to prevent the Wat tech and get past JML autotaunt under Bast" to which the answer is a resounding no at high levels. If you're talking about lower levels of mods, then both teams have improvements to make so the evidence is irrelevant because they can always buff their speed or damage output to get Wat out faster. At the top level of gameplay, the math I did was good because no team comp could outdo that Wat comp under SEE unless Han and Chewie work together to kill Wat turn one. And in that case, SEE has lost two sith so his viability drops, and he loses if the rest of JML's team is titan jedi.

    So yes, normally it's not all about optimal speeds. But the question at hand was literally "isn't there a mod that can stop Wat?" No, he has a bonus turn and one of the highest non-GL speeds in the game. "Can't Han stop him?" Not without killing him first because the JML team will run enough circles to get Wat out before you anyway.

    Keep in mind that TM reduction was accounted for if you go look, and cooldown increases are irrelevant unless the opposing team can get someone out and targeting Wat before an autotaunting, AB'ing, breaching JML erases that possibility. So again....speed.

    You are mixing up the topics, this was about nihilus getting off 3 or more insta kills vs SEE.

    Not talking about the JML team we were discussing at a different point.

    The first time you asked for math and details was with the JML team.

    The Nihilus time, yes, there's a lot to account for, which is why we need testing, but we can get an average guesstimate that is in no way outlandish, especially when we give SEE all the possible benefit of the doubt. In that perfect world he can build over 10% ult charge per enemy turn by having a linked deceived enemy take a turn, and up to 10% if they attack out of turn. Meaning if every character takes one turn and one out of turn attack/mass swarm (which would be bad playing, but again we're really leaning into SEE getting all the good moves and RNG), and it's a full 5 person team, he'd get 40% from the linked targets, and 12% total from the other three. So it would only take 2 full rounds from the other team. If this is a GL team, they go twice per round of turns because they have double the speed of all the other toons, and are most definitely one of the links, so we add another 20% per round. So a single round of turns gains, in a perfect world 72% charge. This means it takes two turns to get his ult, and one more turn to use it. This is also assuming, somehow, that every enemy toon is deceived, so it's such a perfect scenario for SEE, it would literally never happen.

    For characters of average speed, so Nihilus, SEE will have ult before they get off three turns. In three of Nihilus' turns, if he also gets a perfect round, he will have several things go right to build an annihilate.
    1. The enemy team all gets hit with cooldown reduction, reducing annihilate from 8 to 3 right out of the gate, also occupying a turn to make it 2.
    2. Traya and Sion get hit with enough debuffs to give him 10% tm per time they're hit, but that's irrelevant because it most likely won't outspeed the other GL, he may get one extra turn before ult, though unlikely, but possible.
    3. He takes a normal turn, putting annihilate at 1 turn left for next turn. At this point, 2 turns in, SEE is likely to go into ult form shortly. How long after Nihilus depends on the tm gain, so let's say in a perfect world, Traya and Sion both get 1 debuff applied per round, so he's gained a total of 40% above his normal tm at this point.
    4. After SEE ults, Nihilus will get another turn which will put annihilate ready to fire next turn.
    5. SEE will get his instakill first, by about one turn, unless Traya and Sion were getting rocked with debuffs this whole time, and only if everyone started out as deceived, and only if a GL was one of the links.
    6. Nihilus however has no such restrictions and on turn 4, shortly after SEE has gone, he will insta.
    7. Since SEE requires a GL be linked to build this fast, we can assume even in this perfect scenario he only kills one with his ult, as does Nihilus, at around the same time.
    8. Now Nihilus will only take about the same amount of turns to build back, 4 or so, which is roughly 8 for SEE if we have minimal tm gain accounted for. Like I said, ideal for SEE.
    9. Except now, SEE has a 20 turn cooldown that can only be lowered by hitting someone who's deceived. If he only does that 8 times before Nihilus fires again, Nihilus will go his second turn before SEE. And every turn after that will be ahead of SEE.


    This math is assuming a perfect world for SEE and close to optimal circumstances for Nihilus. If we're talking a Rey team, Nihilus will get less tm because they likely won't debuff as often. If we're talking JML, Nihilus will be AB'd, but Traya cleanses and Nihilus will gain about 40% tm off the first efflux to balance all the tm reduction the rest of the team falls for, getting his first turn almost before SEE has a chance to do anything ult-charge related. If we're talking SLKR, realistically Nihilus dies from damage but the debuffs from an FO team are probably about the neutral amount I used the math for. So it's a good average scenario for Nihilus between the opposing GL's, and optimal (to the point of impossibility) parameters for SEE.


    And with this outlandishly optimistic SEE math, he still can't crank off insta-kills as fast as Nihilus. He has the benefit of living longer, so realistically he is better than Nihilus. But we're arguing the term "devastating attack" to which I say, Nihilus technically devastates more, according to the math.


    There's my math, based not on speculation, but concrete possibilities that even gave SEE a huge advantage. And he still loses the battle of devastating attacks.

    Again, this is why it's better to not leave it to theory and show it happening. There is a fair amount of speculation in there.

    I dont see any damage calculations on who dies, CD increases, which both jedi teams are capable of. Treya or Sion dying thrown into play, which changes the math.

    There are a lot of assumptions and I appreciate the effort, but this doesnt prove against the same team that Nihilus wins, this just proves that in some realm it possible, if he doesnt die after his second one, or before...
  • Shadowmaster4
    475 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?

    We already showed the math.

    Let me clarify. Every time I said a number for speed or protection in prior posts, it was based on the swgoh.gg stats for the highest players. Meaning that I was calculating in the ideal environment, JML vs SEE with god mods, or Nihilus vs SEE for speed purposes, or Rey vs JML vs SLKR vs SEE for speed for fighting against the Wat comp.

    None of what I said was bull**** off the top of my head, I did my math with actual stats, so if you want me to show my math you can just go back and reread what I said about the math. That was actual ideally calculated evidence, and if you lowered it from "the highest speed" or "highest damage" SEE in the world, it only gets worse from there. So this math being the best-case scenario for SEE and still showing that he needs buffed is exactly the kind of evidence you've asked for, the pinnacle of the thread when combined with all our suggestions for what to change.

    I never said it was just off the top of your head.

    There are many factors that cant be "just calculated" which is why many times players asked for pics or video. Because "your math" needs to include both full teams, CD increases and decreases, accounting for any TM gained or turns given through other mechanics..... there is a lot more to it than the speed of a toons.

    I agree with the general sentiment of the statement but stand by my math since the question at hand was "Is there a team fast enough to prevent the Wat tech and get past JML autotaunt under Bast" to which the answer is a resounding no at high levels. If you're talking about lower levels of mods, then both teams have improvements to make so the evidence is irrelevant because they can always buff their speed or damage output to get Wat out faster. At the top level of gameplay, the math I did was good because no team comp could outdo that Wat comp under SEE unless Han and Chewie work together to kill Wat turn one. And in that case, SEE has lost two sith so his viability drops, and he loses if the rest of JML's team is titan jedi.

    So yes, normally it's not all about optimal speeds. But the question at hand was literally "isn't there a mod that can stop Wat?" No, he has a bonus turn and one of the highest non-GL speeds in the game. "Can't Han stop him?" Not without killing him first because the JML team will run enough circles to get Wat out before you anyway.

    Keep in mind that TM reduction was accounted for if you go look, and cooldown increases are irrelevant unless the opposing team can get someone out and targeting Wat before an autotaunting, AB'ing, breaching JML erases that possibility. So again....speed.

    You are mixing up the topics, this was about nihilus getting off 3 or more insta kills vs SEE.

    Not talking about the JML team we were discussing at a different point.

    The first time you asked for math and details was with the JML team.

    The Nihilus time, yes, there's a lot to account for, which is why we need testing, but we can get an average guesstimate that is in no way outlandish, especially when we give SEE all the possible benefit of the doubt. In that perfect world he can build over 10% ult charge per enemy turn by having a linked deceived enemy take a turn, and up to 10% if they attack out of turn. Meaning if every character takes one turn and one out of turn attack/mass swarm (which would be bad playing, but again we're really leaning into SEE getting all the good moves and RNG), and it's a full 5 person team, he'd get 40% from the linked targets, and 12% total from the other three. So it would only take 2 full rounds from the other team. If this is a GL team, they go twice per round of turns because they have double the speed of all the other toons, and are most definitely one of the links, so we add another 20% per round. So a single round of turns gains, in a perfect world 72% charge. This means it takes two turns to get his ult, and one more turn to use it. This is also assuming, somehow, that every enemy toon is deceived, so it's such a perfect scenario for SEE, it would literally never happen.

    For characters of average speed, so Nihilus, SEE will have ult before they get off three turns. In three of Nihilus' turns, if he also gets a perfect round, he will have several things go right to build an annihilate.
    1. The enemy team all gets hit with cooldown reduction, reducing annihilate from 8 to 3 right out of the gate, also occupying a turn to make it 2.
    2. Traya and Sion get hit with enough debuffs to give him 10% tm per time they're hit, but that's irrelevant because it most likely won't outspeed the other GL, he may get one extra turn before ult, though unlikely, but possible.
    3. He takes a normal turn, putting annihilate at 1 turn left for next turn. At this point, 2 turns in, SEE is likely to go into ult form shortly. How long after Nihilus depends on the tm gain, so let's say in a perfect world, Traya and Sion both get 1 debuff applied per round, so he's gained a total of 40% above his normal tm at this point.
    4. After SEE ults, Nihilus will get another turn which will put annihilate ready to fire next turn.
    5. SEE will get his instakill first, by about one turn, unless Traya and Sion were getting rocked with debuffs this whole time, and only if everyone started out as deceived, and only if a GL was one of the links.
    6. Nihilus however has no such restrictions and on turn 4, shortly after SEE has gone, he will insta.
    7. Since SEE requires a GL be linked to build this fast, we can assume even in this perfect scenario he only kills one with his ult, as does Nihilus, at around the same time.
    8. Now Nihilus will only take about the same amount of turns to build back, 4 or so, which is roughly 8 for SEE if we have minimal tm gain accounted for. Like I said, ideal for SEE.
    9. Except now, SEE has a 20 turn cooldown that can only be lowered by hitting someone who's deceived. If he only does that 8 times before Nihilus fires again, Nihilus will go his second turn before SEE. And every turn after that will be ahead of SEE.


    This math is assuming a perfect world for SEE and close to optimal circumstances for Nihilus. If we're talking a Rey team, Nihilus will get less tm because they likely won't debuff as often. If we're talking JML, Nihilus will be AB'd, but Traya cleanses and Nihilus will gain about 40% tm off the first efflux to balance all the tm reduction the rest of the team falls for, getting his first turn almost before SEE has a chance to do anything ult-charge related. If we're talking SLKR, realistically Nihilus dies from damage but the debuffs from an FO team are probably about the neutral amount I used the math for. So it's a good average scenario for Nihilus between the opposing GL's, and optimal (to the point of impossibility) parameters for SEE.


    And with this outlandishly optimistic SEE math, he still can't crank off insta-kills as fast as Nihilus. He has the benefit of living longer, so realistically he is better than Nihilus. But we're arguing the term "devastating attack" to which I say, Nihilus technically devastates more, according to the math.


    There's my math, based not on speculation, but concrete possibilities that even gave SEE a huge advantage. And he still loses the battle of devastating attacks.

    Again, this is why it's better to not leave it to theory and show it happening. There is a fair amount of speculation in there.

    I dont see any damage calculations on who dies, CD increases, which both jedi teams are capable of. Treya or Sion dying thrown into play, which changes the math.

    There are a lot of assumptions and I appreciate the effort, but this doesnt prove against the same team that Nihilus wins, this just proves that in some realm it possible, if he doesnt die after his second one, or before...

    Yes but we were debating the term "devastating attacker." It is possible, if we leave survivability out of it, that the attacks from Nihilus are altogether more devastating. Especially when the first move out of Nihilus in this scenario increases the cooldowns of the entire enemy team, and he's working with Traya isolate and Sion tanking, as well as whoever his other two team members are, to keep the enemy off his back.

    I understand all the points applied, I never said it was a likely scenario, but if it's possible one of the only other insta-kills in the game is actually more useful and with fewer factors holding it back from activating, then you can hardly call a new instakill "devastating" unless it beats the other one. And objectively, there are scenarios when it won't, like this one. At best, they're tied, so unless they billed Nihilus as a "devastating attacker" then it was misleading to act like this Ult was anything better than stuff we already have.

    Also, all of the same cooldown increases and people dying and tm loss and ability blocks apply to SEE as well. It was optimistic on both ends so it balances out with Nihilus being vulnerable to those as well. SEE could just as easily be held back from ultimate, die before it activates, get ability blocked to lose his recovery move, or not get enough deceived out fast enough to charge to that level (especially against a dark side team or someone who forces a linked taunt and then dies). These detriments to SEE that are honestly a lot easier to accomplish balance out with Nihilus getting CD increase, or having Traya/Sion die. They are both vulnerable, so the math still averages out in this case.

    All of the math is based on a scenario that is perfect for *both* characters, not just Nihilus, so it's unbiased math. And the math says that Nihilus wins, or at the very least ties, for the title of "devastating attacker"
  • thedrjojo wrote: »
    Note to self... don't put SEE on D if the enemy has SLKR. Also, Kylo does better if he doesn't bring his friends. We already knew that though.

    du57c1bxcyzv.png
  • This whole thread is pointless. SEEs glaring problems brought me to the forums, but it has become glaringly evident investing in him was a mistake. Like many others I invested a hefty amount of cash pushing him through, just like SLKR. Im actually far more disappointed with SEEs performance, then SLKRs and he got a buff, so I trusted in a performance change in SEE and chose to continue pushing on. If I had it to do over again I most certainly would. From a consumer's perspective I should never be left feel that way.

    As an adult I recognize giving my money to a mobile game for any reason is on my shoulders. Its a pretty hefty burn, and if this thread is any indicator Im not the only one who feels this way.

    No were not using him wrong, no its not about modding. Hes extremely weak and literally works against Jedis and that is it, and as I use him to climb in JML teams in arena its becoming aparent they are quickly becoming proficient in even mitigating that.
  • Dkfusion wrote: »

    No were not using him wrong, no its not about modding. Hes extremely weak and literally works against Jedis and that is it, and as I use him to climb in JML teams in arena its becoming aparent they are quickly becoming proficient in even mitigating that.

    I have to say, *for the most part*, I think I agree. It's gotten to the point where we acknowledge his team is bad and we know the best comps for him to run with. There might be slight modding changes but nothing that will blow the issues in his kit away.

    When you get down to arguing over which characters as individuals have more merit than him, you have to acknowledge his team isn't the problem. We're no longer arguing comp, we're arguing if he can beat Nihilus or if he has enough in his kit to counter Wat, or how many toons can solo him (like if anyone feels risky enough to test Nest).
  • Shiryu wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    https://youtu.be/1sgK9ehinLs

    Someone finally had recording software and an enemy SEE to face.

    I called that back on like page 5 that NS could win from some higher end friends and some discord chats. But oh well. Guess b-tier teams are joining the other GLs as a SEE counter.

    Geos, NS, troopers, (I've seen padmes do it), SE, palp, thrawn L, any Slkr, any rey, jml Jericho bomb.

    Pretty sure if there is no nihilus or malak Nest can solo a SEE team LOL

    As the creator of this video id like to offer a further statement. While this probably isnt the best SEE team, it is very anti NS in nature as someone pointed out, Traya is hard coded to Isolate Daka, this will happen everytime regardless providing Thrawn goes first and fractures zombie. The biggest issue for SEE is the team is simply killing off nightsisters too often which removes linked and decieved making his ultimate charge extremely slow to the point where he will never get a shot at using it.

    Id also like to point out my Nightsisters are overall much lower developed than the opposing team. My Talzin and Zombie are R1, Spirit is G12, Assaj R4 and only Daka is R7. Imagine what my squad could do if they were all R7.....

    As for mods there are modded fairly well but these are by no means my best mods at all, if my best mods were on this team it would probably be even worse for the SEE.

    While i love that theres a F2P counter available and i must point out people have been complaining for years about unbeatable P2P teams in Arena and asking for some meta diversity. I feel in comparrison to the other GLs that this is rather pathetic. As much as i love Nightsisters they should not in any circumstance be able to defeat a GL, even more so when said GL has his ultimate ability. Under no circumstance could a team like NS beat any of the other GLs and given a GL takes such an investment this is a major kick in the face to anyone investing in SEE.

    Yeah maybe running Sith Empire characters could stop this lineup and thats a big maybe (this is the only team in my shard so cannot test further) its beyond the point. In a TW/GAC setting most people cannot spare their DR to boost up a weak GL that shouldnt need it to not be countered by Nightsisters. I'm going for GL palp myself so i wasnt thrilled making this video if im being honest.

  • Dkfusion wrote: »

    No were not using him wrong, no its not about modding. Hes extremely weak and literally works against Jedis and that is it, and as I use him to climb in JML teams in arena its becoming aparent they are quickly becoming proficient in even mitigating that.
    There might be slight modding changes but nothing that will blow the issues in his kit away.kit to counter Wat, or how many toons can solo him (like if anyone feels risky enough to test Nest).

    Inb4 Kyno jumps in saying we need to mod harder or find a better defensive configuration to hold against the galactic nightsisters

  • LordDunbar wrote: »
    Dkfusion wrote: »

    No were not using him wrong, no its not about modding. Hes extremely weak and literally works against Jedis and that is it, and as I use him to climb in JML teams in arena its becoming aparent they are quickly becoming proficient in even mitigating that.
    There might be slight modding changes but nothing that will blow the issues in his kit away.kit to counter Wat, or how many toons can solo him (like if anyone feels risky enough to test Nest).

    Inb4 Kyno jumps in saying we need to mod harder or find a better defensive configuration to hold against the galactic nightsisters

    Oh don't get me wrong I love that Kyno is trying so hard to make it the most relevant points possible to give to the devs, but I just feel like if we said "Nightsisters can beat Rey, and Rey can solo herself, and Imp Troopers can steamroll her" that the devs wouldn't need nitpicking to take action, just proof it can happen. Funny enough, there is proof of all three of those and even a lot more with SEE.
  • Zaraos wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    https://youtu.be/1sgK9ehinLs

    Someone finally had recording software and an enemy SEE to face.

    I called that back on like page 5 that NS could win from some higher end friends and some discord chats. But oh well. Guess b-tier teams are joining the other GLs as a SEE counter.

    Geos, NS, troopers, (I've seen padmes do it), SE, palp, thrawn L, any Slkr, any rey, jml Jericho bomb.

    Pretty sure if there is no nihilus or malak Nest can solo a SEE team LOL

    Id also like to point out my Nightsisters are overall much lower developed than the opposing team. My Talzin and Zombie are R1, Spirit is G12, Assaj R4 and only Daka is R7. Imagine what my squad could do if they were all R7.....
    As for mods there are modded fairly well but these are by no means my best mods at all, if my best mods were on this team it would probably be even worse for the SEE.
    I'm going for GL palp myself so i wasnt thrilled making this video if im being honest.

    I'd like to now point out that anyone saying SEE just needs a better comp or to be modded better: he literally loses to an underrelic'd, modestly modded, year(s) old F2P team while his comp is literally set to counter the team. If you replaced SEE with someone like EP they would run circles around NS, it's not the comp.

    Yes it's situational, but that situation doesn't happen with other GL's, so he's still not "on par." Also, how situational is it really when almost everyone has a NS squad that's at least that good?
  • Zaraos wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    https://youtu.be/1sgK9ehinLs

    Someone finally had recording software and an enemy SEE to face.

    I called that back on like page 5 that NS could win from some higher end friends and some discord chats. But oh well. Guess b-tier teams are joining the other GLs as a SEE counter.

    Geos, NS, troopers, (I've seen padmes do it), SE, palp, thrawn L, any Slkr, any rey, jml Jericho bomb.

    Pretty sure if there is no nihilus or malak Nest can solo a SEE team LOL

    As the creator of this video id like to offer a further statement. While this probably isnt the best SEE team, it is very anti NS in nature as someone pointed out, Traya is hard coded to Isolate Daka, this will happen everytime regardless providing Thrawn goes first and fractures zombie. The biggest issue for SEE is the team is simply killing off nightsisters too often which removes linked and decieved making his ultimate charge extremely slow to the point where he will never get a shot at using it.

    Id also like to point out my Nightsisters are overall much lower developed than the opposing team. My Talzin and Zombie are R1, Spirit is G12, Assaj R4 and only Daka is R7. Imagine what my squad could do if they were all R7.....

    As for mods there are modded fairly well but these are by no means my best mods at all, if my best mods were on this team it would probably be even worse for the SEE.

    While i love that theres a F2P counter available and i must point out people have been complaining for years about unbeatable P2P teams in Arena and asking for some meta diversity.

    I agree one f2p counter would be great. We had wat/vader for Rey, Fives for SLKR.

    But now, for SEE, we have:

    - Nightsisters
    - Geonosians
    - CLS
    - Imperial Troopers

    as F2P counters, ON TOP of Rey and Kylo being able to SOLO a SEE team, all evidenced by this video compilation

    https://youtu.be/58EeWYH5IHc

    And now, anyone active in the guild discords are hearing whispers that Kuiil can beat SEE. What's next, Ewoks? Have also heard whispers odld Padme being able to beat SEE but no one's made a video yet.

    Enough is enough, we can sit here and debate if we have good enough mods or the right people in the team, but that's just putting lipstick on a pig, the bottom line is that SEE's kit is broken.
  • LordDunbar wrote: »
    Zaraos wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    https://youtu.be/1sgK9ehinLs

    Someone finally had recording software and an enemy SEE to face.

    I called that back on like page 5 that NS could win from some higher end friends and some discord chats. But oh well. Guess b-tier teams are joining the other GLs as a SEE counter.

    Geos, NS, troopers, (I've seen padmes do it), SE, palp, thrawn L, any Slkr, any rey, jml Jericho bomb.

    Pretty sure if there is no nihilus or malak Nest can solo a SEE team LOL

    As the creator of this video id like to offer a further statement. While this probably isnt the best SEE team, it is very anti NS in nature as someone pointed out, Traya is hard coded to Isolate Daka, this will happen everytime regardless providing Thrawn goes first and fractures zombie. The biggest issue for SEE is the team is simply killing off nightsisters too often which removes linked and decieved making his ultimate charge extremely slow to the point where he will never get a shot at using it.

    Id also like to point out my Nightsisters are overall much lower developed than the opposing team. My Talzin and Zombie are R1, Spirit is G12, Assaj R4 and only Daka is R7. Imagine what my squad could do if they were all R7.....

    As for mods there are modded fairly well but these are by no means my best mods at all, if my best mods were on this team it would probably be even worse for the SEE.

    While i love that theres a F2P counter available and i must point out people have been complaining for years about unbeatable P2P teams in Arena and asking for some meta diversity.

    I agree one f2p counter would be great. We had wat/vader for Rey, Fives for SLKR.

    But now, for SEE, we have:

    - Nightsisters
    - Geonosians
    - CLS
    - Imperial Troopers

    as F2P counters, ON TOP of Rey and Kylo being able to SOLO a SEE team, all evidenced by this video compilation

    Don't forget that he can solo himself, and the only GL he can sometimes counter solidly has a Jericho comp that removes all chance of SEE winning when he uses some of the strongest Sith in the game as his supports.
  • LordDunbar wrote: »
    Zaraos wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    https://youtu.be/1sgK9ehinLs

    Someone finally had recording software and an enemy SEE to face.

    I called that back on like page 5 that NS could win from some higher end friends and some discord chats. But oh well. Guess b-tier teams are joining the other GLs as a SEE counter.

    Geos, NS, troopers, (I've seen padmes do it), SE, palp, thrawn L, any Slkr, any rey, jml Jericho bomb.

    Pretty sure if there is no nihilus or malak Nest can solo a SEE team LOL

    As the creator of this video id like to offer a further statement. While this probably isnt the best SEE team, it is very anti NS in nature as someone pointed out, Traya is hard coded to Isolate Daka, this will happen everytime regardless providing Thrawn goes first and fractures zombie. The biggest issue for SEE is the team is simply killing off nightsisters too often which removes linked and decieved making his ultimate charge extremely slow to the point where he will never get a shot at using it.

    Id also like to point out my Nightsisters are overall much lower developed than the opposing team. My Talzin and Zombie are R1, Spirit is G12, Assaj R4 and only Daka is R7. Imagine what my squad could do if they were all R7.....

    As for mods there are modded fairly well but these are by no means my best mods at all, if my best mods were on this team it would probably be even worse for the SEE.

    While i love that theres a F2P counter available and i must point out people have been complaining for years about unbeatable P2P teams in Arena and asking for some meta diversity.

    I agree one f2p counter would be great. We had wat/vader for Rey, Fives for SLKR.

    But now, for SEE, we have:

    - Nightsisters
    - Geonosians
    - CLS
    - Imperial Troopers

    as F2P counters, ON TOP of Rey and Kylo being able to SOLO a SEE team, all evidenced by this video compilation

    https://youtu.be/58EeWYH5IHc

    And now, anyone active in the guild discords are hearing whispers that Kuiil can beat SEE. What's next, Ewoks? Have also heard whispers odld Padme being able to beat SEE but no one's made a video yet.

    Enough is enough, we can sit here and debate if we have good enough mods or the right people in the team, but that's just putting lipstick on a pig, the bottom line is that SEE's kit is broken.

    Wow, Il be sure to try out some of those teams tommorow and if i have any success il deffo make another video or two. Geos and Imperial troopers? just wow.....
  • Zaraos wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Zaraos wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Blake085 wrote: »
    Came here to see all the crying because SEE can be beaten by NS, saw that in a video.

    I'm leaving disappointed hahaha

    https://youtu.be/1sgK9ehinLs

    Someone finally had recording software and an enemy SEE to face.

    I called that back on like page 5 that NS could win from some higher end friends and some discord chats. But oh well. Guess b-tier teams are joining the other GLs as a SEE counter.

    Geos, NS, troopers, (I've seen padmes do it), SE, palp, thrawn L, any Slkr, any rey, jml Jericho bomb.

    Pretty sure if there is no nihilus or malak Nest can solo a SEE team LOL

    As the creator of this video id like to offer a further statement. While this probably isnt the best SEE team, it is very anti NS in nature as someone pointed out, Traya is hard coded to Isolate Daka, this will happen everytime regardless providing Thrawn goes first and fractures zombie. The biggest issue for SEE is the team is simply killing off nightsisters too often which removes linked and decieved making his ultimate charge extremely slow to the point where he will never get a shot at using it.

    Id also like to point out my Nightsisters are overall much lower developed than the opposing team. My Talzin and Zombie are R1, Spirit is G12, Assaj R4 and only Daka is R7. Imagine what my squad could do if they were all R7.....

    As for mods there are modded fairly well but these are by no means my best mods at all, if my best mods were on this team it would probably be even worse for the SEE.

    While i love that theres a F2P counter available and i must point out people have been complaining for years about unbeatable P2P teams in Arena and asking for some meta diversity.

    I agree one f2p counter would be great. We had wat/vader for Rey, Fives for SLKR.

    But now, for SEE, we have:

    - Nightsisters
    - Geonosians
    - CLS
    - Imperial Troopers

    as F2P counters, ON TOP of Rey and Kylo being able to SOLO a SEE team, all evidenced by this video compilation

    https://youtu.be/58EeWYH5IHc

    And now, anyone active in the guild discords are hearing whispers that Kuiil can beat SEE. What's next, Ewoks? Have also heard whispers odld Padme being able to beat SEE but no one's made a video yet.

    Enough is enough, we can sit here and debate if we have good enough mods or the right people in the team, but that's just putting lipstick on a pig, the bottom line is that SEE's kit is broken.

    Wow, Il be sure to try out some of those teams tommorow and if i have any success il deffo make another video or two. Geos and Imperial troopers? just wow.....

    Oh yeah, in the couple vids I've seen, Imp Troopers just walk all over him because they go so fast with Piett that by the time he gets a turn, his team is all dead. And since they're Dark Side, it's harder to keep deceived going around, so even though they're taking tons of turns, he can't build ultimate as fast as he'd like. If I recall, geos was a bit harder.
  • Ewoks could potentially do it... TM train, daze, healing, revives, wicket damage
  • MikKro wrote: »
    Ewoks could potentially do it... TM train, daze, healing, revives, wicket damage

    I think that would depend on the comp of SEE. Not because they couldn't kill SEE, but just cuz I don't think they could get through SE or Triumvirate very easily. Although with Triumvirate backing SEE, if they hit Nihilus first, they might be able to. You'd need fast ewoks to get out the tm train and mass swarms and assists before SEE can crank out his ult too many times, since you'd be constantly feeding him charge.
  • MikKro wrote: »
    Ewoks could potentially do it... TM train, daze, healing, revives, wicket damage

    Probably r7 ewoks could.. but who wants to r7 ewoks to test? Hmmm... 😂
  • Maybe wat in there, tech on paploo, die and revive. It would be a really good laugh if it worked...
  • LordDunbar wrote: »
    MikKro wrote: »
    Ewoks could potentially do it... TM train, daze, healing, revives, wicket damage

    Probably r7 ewoks could.. but who wants to r7 ewoks to test? Hmmm... 😂

    I'd bet ewoks with relic advantage and good mods could, but you'd have to target SEE first since they'd give him ult so fast. And if you kill SEE first, you're left with SE who can probably destroy even r7 ewoks at a disadvantage, or the Trio who are also dangerous especially for a team like ewoks.

    If it was a trash comp, a bad support squad, relic advantage, or a lucky run, I bet ewoks could take SEE down. But for evidence of a buff needed that would be irrelevant since it needs to be stacked in favor of the ewoks. It would be hilarious though, and as long as the SEE squad was relic'd at all it might still be something of note that ewoks can win in the first place.
  • MikKro wrote: »
    Maybe wat in there, tech on paploo, die and revive. It would be a really good laugh if it worked...

    So the best possible comp would be Wat, Chirpa lead, Wicket, Paploo, and either Elder or Logray for control? And have Paploo modded for maximum protection possible (which right now is 126k for Paploo) so the tech helps him regen a lot. Linked will mess with him, but I think SEE links Wat right? So he'd have a 1/4 chance of ruining the comp by linking Paploo to drain protection. If he doesn't link Paploo, it's a possible win with a really beefy Paploo regening tons of protection each turn. The weapon tech on Wicket would also do work.
  • Theory crafting ewoks to take out the newest supreme sith 🤦‍♂️
  • Sewpot wrote: »
    Theory crafting ewoks to take out the newest supreme sith 🤦‍♂️

    To be fair, we're basically theorycrafting how an r7 team with the best plug-n-play in the game could beat an r1 team with meh mods, but the idea of which teams they are just makes it sound so sad, yeah.
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