SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • GJO
    152 posts Member
    Shiryu wrote: »
    GJO wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    GJO wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.

    The fixes:
    1. Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
    2. Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    3. Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
    4. Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
    5. Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
    6. Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
    7. Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
    8. When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn


    Fix explanations:
    1. SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
    2. Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
    3. SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
    4. SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
    5. Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
    6. SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
    7. Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
    8. SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!

    Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    Give me a insta-win button.

    Do you think SEE shouldn't be able to apply Deceived in general to DS targets? Why? What do you think SEE's post-ultimate basic base damage should be, compared to, say, SLKR? 5% of his damage?

    Surely you have something to contribute if you believe that this proposed change is an "i win button" compared to an older GL attacker like SLKR.

    (This is the part where the people who pop in usually go away because they're transparently just mocking contributors in an attempt to prevent an SEE buff so that their GLs keep their "I win button"--and they have no arguments other than that they feel SEE should just be a bad GL)

    I already did. 4 to 6 pages ago. Go and read.

    I won't comment any further on this:
    "Let's not dismiss anyone's contributions based on suspected ulterior motives, when you have no proof."

    That last part applies to you as well Bud.

    So keep your hypocrisy out of this civilized discussion since YOU have no proof to why he SHOULDN'T be buffed / fixed.

    First. You do not own the thread. The thread is not Shiryuy (whatever) property, where only shyryu ideas are approved. People can think differently, live with that.

    Second. If your parents didn't provide you education, there can't be our problem. Go to school, get a course of well manners, whatever. But keep your labeling and name calling for yourself.

    Third, try to learn how to interpret text. I neve said SEE desn't need a buff. I did say the amount of buff you are proposing it's ridiculous.

    That's it.
  • So who's left?

    GG Droids
    Nute
    First Order
    Ewoks
    Jawas
    Tuskens

    Think thats about it... But keep the comedy coming. If anyone has these at relics please test
  • Shiryu wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).

    Another problem with Vader is it FEEDS Rey her ultimate. Plus in the video the player faces a JKR team with Rey support.
    He didn't show off vs a Rey Lead team.

    And yes. I've had some success with SEE vs rey its more of a 50/50 if its Rey lead. And thats with my mods.

    Yes your right RayRay that vader is one of the best sith we have, however it still doesn't excuse SEE for being absolutely dog crap. I can beat those same Rey teams as before with Vader lead with 0 net loss of characters for more banners in GAC or TW... adding SEE actually makes the fight worse and prone to even more rng

    Maybe I just face easier rey teams,but I'm at >95% wins vs Rey lead
  • MikKro wrote: »
    So who's left?

    GG Droids
    Nute
    First Order
    Ewoks
    Jawas
    Tuskens

    Think thats about it... But keep the comedy coming. If anyone has these at relics please test

    And a Nest solo. It would take either a god tier Nest or bad mods on SEE's team, but it's theoretically possible :D
  • MikKro
    140 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Or a malak solo could work vs no tank see
  • thedrjojo wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).

    Another problem with Vader is it FEEDS Rey her ultimate. Plus in the video the player faces a JKR team with Rey support.
    He didn't show off vs a Rey Lead team.

    And yes. I've had some success with SEE vs rey its more of a 50/50 if its Rey lead. And thats with my mods.

    Yes your right RayRay that vader is one of the best sith we have, however it still doesn't excuse SEE for being absolutely dog crap. I can beat those same Rey teams as before with Vader lead with 0 net loss of characters for more banners in GAC or TW... adding SEE actually makes the fight worse and prone to even more rng

    Maybe I just face easier rey teams,but I'm at >95% wins vs Rey lead

    How old is your shard?
    I think how good the mods are plays a part, and older shards tend to have better mods floating around. I struggle vs. some Reys that are really well modded.

    For example most of the Reys in my shard rank 40 to 15 I can beat fairly well, maybe 80% win rate on my end. But the Reys that float around in the top 15 I struggle to beat, it usually comes down to RNG but I'd say win rate is 30-40% there.

    Of course, if I just run Vader lead and don't use SEE at all, I can beat all those Reys.

    So still, SEE is a weak link (pun not intended)
  • I'm gonna be real, there is a bare minimum I'd be happy with and would shut up about SEE if they did.

    Change his mastery type to boost his damage more. When he caps by doubling at ult, if he's been building a better mastery type the whole round, he may actually be devastating post-ult. That would be a small enough change so as to not be game-changing, nor would it ruin most matchups (especially the ones that can kill him pre-ult anyway), so it would *barely* qualify as a full fix, but it would honestly be enough to shut me up at this point.
  • Reasonable (not god tier) changes required to SEE IMO:

    1) Increase damage
    2) Do not make him always link taunting tanks
    3) Reduce ultimate cooldown
    4) Prevent solo
    5) Remove anti synergy with Sith tanks
    6) Add synergy with Empire
  • SithAmer wrote: »
    Reasonable (not god tier) changes required to SEE IMO:

    1) Increase damage
    By +300% in pre-ultimate, +50% post ultimate
    2) Do not make him always link taunting tanks
    Make AI link prioritize units with highest offense.
    3) Reduce ultimate cooldown
    it's fine vs. jedi teams but needs to happen quicker on non-jedi, or dark side teams
    4) Prevent solo
    this, x1000
    5) Remove anti synergy with Sith tanks
    yes, yes, yes
    6) Add synergy with Empire
    That would be nice, not necessary though if they fix his broken synergy with Sith

  • I feel like he should get a buff to his damage pre-Ult, but he should still have a much greater damage output when he reaches his ult.
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    I still find it very annoying that kylo can do an AOE on his 3rd turn that can kill from full protection an r7 Vader, traya and Nihilis... why doesn’t see do something for his team?
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • RAYRAY wrote: »
    I still find it very annoying that kylo can do an AOE on his 3rd turn that can kill from full protection an r7 Vader, traya and Nihilis... why doesn’t see do something for his team?

    SEE can do this too, but only to Jedi and only after ultimate transformation.

    So yeah SEE is a lot less useful
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    I still find it very annoying that kylo can do an AOE on his 3rd turn that can kill from full protection an r7 Vader, traya and Nihilis... why doesn’t see do something for his team?

    SEE can do this too, but only to Jedi and only after ultimate transformation.

    So yeah SEE is a lot less useful

    Exactly. What would be cool is if see’s lead added a bunch of damage mitigation and crit immunity while he’s not in ultimate form and then when he switches to ultimate he steals damage stats and protection from all remaining allies, along with removing the mitigation and crit immunity.
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • dgree
    384 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    I still find it very annoying that kylo can do an AOE on his 3rd turn that can kill from full protection an r7 Vader, traya and Nihilis... why doesn’t see do something for his team?

    SEE can do this too, but only to Jedi and only after ultimate transformation.

    So yeah SEE is a lot less useful

    Exactly. What would be cool is if see’s lead added a bunch of damage mitigation and crit immunity while he’s not in ultimate form and then when he switches to ultimate he steals damage stats and protection from all remaining allies, along with removing the mitigation and crit immunity.

    SEE does provide some damage mitigation and crit immunity, but only against non-GL linked enemies. And one of the Linked enemies has to be a tank. So if SEE could at least apply these effects against GLs it would help a lot (SLKR's perm-advantage, for example, also provides crit immunity for his whole squad against enemy GLs!).
  • QuickGoneJim
    124 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    After weeks of testing I would be fine with some changes that target 2 scenarios: Rey and JML.

    Easy fight:
    Deceived ignores foresight and removes bonus protection. Deceived opponents can’t get bonus protection.

    Linked ignores taunt and reduces TM to zero.

    Not so easy fight:
    Deceived ignores foresight.

    Linked ignores taunt, reduces TM to zero and removes bonus protection. Linked opponents can’t get bonus protection.

    That’s it. It doesn’t help against SLKR but I can live with that. This would weaken the 2 LS GLs enough to beat them reliably and break the ****/JML/Wat loop. It could also work against JML/KAM.

    All other changes proposed here would be nice. They would rid us of a lot of problems with the kit. But they are almost a full rework. That’s not realistic in my opinion.
    Post edited by QuickGoneJim on
  • @QuickGoneJim have you seen my suggested touchups? The kit is strengthened and some weaknesses would probably be removed but it would basically look the same.
  • QuickGoneJim
    124 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    dgree wrote: »
    @QuickGoneJim have you seen my suggested touchups? The kit is strengthened and some weaknesses would probably be removed but it would basically look the same.

    No, I didn’t see it.

    This is an unpleasant situation. Many people seem to have low win rates. At least some of these people are doing something wrong. Others use SEE fairly successful but are disappointed by his weaknesses and the awful gameplay idea. I think the least CG should do is make SEE 100% reliable against Rey & JML for people who use proper mods and strategy.
  • So are they still waiting and observing?
  • So are they still waiting and observing?

    At this point who knows? I’d hope it’s still on their radar
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