SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • how many more times in this thread are ppl going to argue semantics with Kyno? Just curious. Seems to happen every few pages.

    1. "CG is monitoring the new GLs." Obviously. JML has had at least two bug fixes and GLEE has had the same.
    2. "The GLs must be WAI as CG has done nothing." Not true or they wouldn't have fixed 4 bugs btwn the 2 GLs. Anyone concluding that but ignoring the bug fixes is being disingenuous.
    3. "By not saying something, CG is saying something." Logical fallacy. But for giggles, they've not been silent. They've had to fix 4 bugs, 3 of them quite recently, so CG's efforts to monitor the toons in the wild have obviously shown the bugs and they've been working on correcting them and releasing the fixes as they can. This in turn lengthens the monitoring process for any potential buffs or further fixes, obviously. Just relax.
    4. "Old GLs break the rock-paper-scissors goal of CG" .....I'm still confused by this one. Legit no idea what that post meant or was saying. :confused:
  • DS dgree wrote: »
    It's not really important, but imo most of my suggestions fall into the touch-up category. And Kyno is right about this being is a weird situation. But anyway, now that we've determined how many ways SEE is poop, I have a question:

    How in tarnation does SEE work in mirrors? I saw a couple things that looked like bugs early on, but basically, there's a major logical flaw in SEE's kit: if your SEE is deceived and there is only an enemy SEE + 1 Sith:
    1. Unraveled Destiny forces you to apply Linked to the enemy Sith
    2. You can't target a Linked character during the bonus turn
    3. You can't target SEE during the bonus turn

    I've seen people say they just wind up still targeting the other Sith and applying Linked twice, and now hearing that, instead, Unraveled Destiny is disabled. This would also be the case for MM, who basically has the Deceived mechanic but it's up against everyone 24/7. I guess the underlying logic is that if you can only target one enemy (and therefore can only target one enemy with a Linked-applying ability), you can't use Unraveled Destiny.

    So it sounds like using SEE vs SEE, especially if your squad is stronger, would probably be a bad idea.

    This seems to punish having a stronger team, and more importantly, it seems like a clunky bad design. I truly hope they revisit this and the linked ability. If you are in ultimate stance, and you can’t link, all you can do is basic until you get killed. That really seems like a poor design. You should have more choices at the end of a battle, not fewer. This “fix” and the general clunkyness of linked (especially the Solo problem), should at the very least make them lower the difficulty to getting to ultimate and lower the cooldown of the AOE to about 10.

    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • MikKro
    129 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    How about this: at the start of battle if there's only 1 enemy, they have their max hp, protection and offence reduced by say 20% at the start of every character turn and stacks till the end, via debuff or just flat text on his lead. No more soloing
  • jezmonster wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    jezmonster wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    When did they say they didnt want to buff him? Again, setting arbitrary timelines and acting like they have some meaning in the process doesnt really mean anything. There is more going on right now then when the older GLs were released, it's possible that is extending the timeline a bit.

    Yes they made statements when they knew what changes they were going to make. They have not come to any conclusion on SEE, so they have not made a statement. Yes we are on the outside edge of the timeframe, but we know they are looking at it, because they said they are.

    Kyno Please see what you are saying here and how it leads to our conclusions. You say things like "CG never said they wont buff him" but then also say "they will only say something when there is some decision/conclusion that has been made". So we can safely and definitely conclude then that as of this time CG has in fact decided that based on everything they have seen, SEE will not get a buff, tweak or change of any kind. If they had made a decision on a change they would have said something. When nothing is communicated it means nothing has been decided. So its fine and logical for us to conclude that CG will do nothing because they have said nothing.

    Does this mean CG will never do something in the future? Of course not, but as of now they have not concluded there is anything wrong with SEE and are just "monitoring".

    You drawing your conclusion own conclusion from someone not saying something, is on you.

    They will make a statement when they have a decision or something to say. Anyone taking them not saying something as them saying something about this is 100% incorrect.

    Is that clear enough?

    “they will make a statement when they have a decision”. But don’t conclude a decision has not been made by them not making a statement. But they will make a statement when they decide something.

    Makes perfect sense. How could it not.

    ... what?
  • At this point just close this thread and let CG do what they are or aren’t going to do. Their customers have spoken and they are silent. It is deafening at this point. No sense in pointing out how bad SEE is anymore.
  • LordDirt wrote: »
    At this point just close this thread and let CG do what they are or aren’t going to do. Their customers have spoken and they are silent. It is deafening at this point. No sense in pointing out how bad SEE is anymore.

    Disagree, they are still collecting evidence and gathering data so , we need a way to provide it here if any new situations arise
  • They can see it on their end. They dont need us pointing out the obvious. Like beating a dead horse at this point.
  • Come on, guys, if SEE didn't work as They intended we would have already got some announcement from CG to attract players to farm him, some players just continue farming SEE blindly expecting that he will receive buffs and this works in favor of CG. I'm afraid even in 3 weeks we don't receive any adequate response from them. They made a bet on cash cow like JML and there is nothing more to add
  • FWIW I do think CG will make some adjustments to SEE I don't think it'll be a complete overhaul but maybe a change to his link ability and/or health rather than protection recovery. Pure speculation on my part of course.

    I do think there's a gulf between the hopes and expectations of what some have posted here and what Dojo has commented namely; it's being looked into. Players want something more concrete than that but CG won't say anything further for the time being. Like I said, there's CG on one side and SEE owners on the other and what I see as a bit of mutual miscomprehension.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Yeh, actually some minor tweaks are done and maybe will be done in future, but SEE will remain the underdog among other Gls without appropriate buffs. I just wonder what was the purpose of SEE's release, Funny, but CG thought that players would zealously farm him just to counter JML and because this is Sith's Gl. CG are wrong, as a rule players farm such expensive toons to offset the costs in future with help of newly-farmed toons.
    CG set a new level of toons due to quality and abilities when SLKR and REY were released. And there was a statement that new GLs wouldn't be more powerful than old but "of the same power level". Now CG has just downgraded the level of Gls or players' trust to them.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    That's kinda how I interpreted the "Old GLs break the rock-paper-scissors goal of CG" thing. I'm far from convinced that this was an actual CG goal. But there's not really a point to SEE when SLKR already does everything he does but better. SLKR can counter JML fine, is better in the FO/Sith vs GR assault battle, and there are going to be way too many SLKRs in arena.

    SLKR is a superior Sith leader and does better damage--even against Jedi----with a host of amazing strengths in place of SEE's prot drain and smorgasbord of weaknesses.

    758f5v05b4h4.png
  • CG, Kylo looks better for what See was designed 😀
  • dgree wrote: »
    That's kinda how I interpreted the "Old GLs break the rock-paper-scissors goal of CG" thing. I'm far from convinced that this was an actual CG goal. But there's not really a point to SEE when SLKR already does everything he does but better. SLKR can counter JML fine, is better in the FO/Sith vs GR assault battle, and there are going to be way too many SLKRs in arena.

    SLKR is a superior Sith leader and does better damage--even against Jedi----with a host of amazing strengths in place of SEE's prot drain and smorgasbord of weaknesses.

    758f5v05b4h4.png
    Xagen wrote: »
    CG, Kylo looks better for what See was designed 😀

    A big reason for that is also because both Drevan and SLKR lead actually buffs your team, compared to SEEs leadership -.-
  • Kyno
    27456 posts Moderator
    LordDirt wrote: »
    At this point just close this thread and let CG do what they are or aren’t going to do. Their customers have spoken and they are silent. It is deafening at this point. No sense in pointing out how bad SEE is anymore.

    They have spoken, you choosing to ignore that does not make them silent.
  • I must be one of the few people that find SEE really hard to beat then (with Rey). I don't think he needs a buff! :wink:
  • Kyno
    27456 posts Moderator
    dgree wrote: »
    That's kinda how I interpreted the "Old GLs break the rock-paper-scissors goal of CG" thing. I'm far from convinced that this was an actual CG goal. But there's not really a point to SEE when SLKR already does everything he does but better. SLKR can counter JML fine, is better in the FO/Sith vs GR assault battle, and there are going to be way too many SLKRs in arena.

    SLKR is a superior Sith leader and does better damage--even against Jedi----with a host of amazing strengths in place of SEE's prot drain and smorgasbord of weaknesses.

    758f5v05b4h4.png

    They had a meta, comprised of teams made with 2 GLs in play. They said they wanted the new GLs to be on par with the old ones..... how does that play out and not become some sort of R-P-S like meta?

    SLKR is not a Sith leader.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    That's kinda how I interpreted the "Old GLs break the rock-paper-scissors goal of CG" thing. I'm far from convinced that this was an actual CG goal. But there's not really a point to SEE when SLKR already does everything he does but better. SLKR can counter JML fine, is better in the FO/Sith vs GR assault battle, and there are going to be way too many SLKRs in arena.

    SLKR is a superior Sith leader and does better damage--even against Jedi----with a host of amazing strengths in place of SEE's prot drain and smorgasbord of weaknesses.

    758f5v05b4h4.png

    They had a meta, comprised of teams made with 2 GLs in play. They said they wanted the new GLs to be on par with the old ones..... how does that play out and not become some sort of R-P-S like meta?

    SLKR is not a Sith leader.

    Exactly, SLKR is not a Sith Leader, but he performs with SE better again JML (hard counter) than SEE with SE, for example SLKR's most SE allies are still alive, when he activates Ultimate and crash the enemy and having a look at SEE, so-called SITH LEADER, with some specially-designed abilities against Jedi, whose team by the moment he activates his Ultimate are mostly dead :)
  • Kyno
    27456 posts Moderator
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    That's kinda how I interpreted the "Old GLs break the rock-paper-scissors goal of CG" thing. I'm far from convinced that this was an actual CG goal. But there's not really a point to SEE when SLKR already does everything he does but better. SLKR can counter JML fine, is better in the FO/Sith vs GR assault battle, and there are going to be way too many SLKRs in arena.

    SLKR is a superior Sith leader and does better damage--even against Jedi----with a host of amazing strengths in place of SEE's prot drain and smorgasbord of weaknesses.

    758f5v05b4h4.png

    They had a meta, comprised of teams made with 2 GLs in play. They said they wanted the new GLs to be on par with the old ones..... how does that play out and not become some sort of R-P-S like meta?

    SLKR is not a Sith leader.
    If SEE was actually on par then it's possible it could become rock-paper-scissors. Idk.

    Regarding SLKR not being a Sith leader, I summarized it recently:
    dgree wrote: »
    SEE's kit is Sith-centered, but SLKR does more for DS, Sith included, than SEE does.

    SEE:
    • Speed
    • Bonus mastery
    • Very modest mastery increases if the Sith allies even survive
    • Protection recovery for a generally HP-based faction
    • Reduced damage from one enemy attacker unless it's a GL


    SLKR:
    • Speed
    • Bonus mastery
    • Crit immunity against all enemies including GLs
    • Critical Damage bonus
    • Advantage plus CD Up for attackers, permataunt for tanks, mad TM gain for support
    • Max HP/Prot gain from TM removal
    • Everything SLKR does on his own--permastunning an enemy on start, cleansing debuffs, murdering everyone
    Sith with SLKR on offense are probably going to be quite a bit more common than SEE, since SLKR with Sith counters JML, and more Sith survive way more by the end of the battle.

    You said you didnt believe it was the plan, but that is the stated plan, so it seems that it was the plan. SEE not being quite there, 1 - does not make it not RPS like, as he can win, and the others are all mostly in line. So it's just not as balanced as we would all like.

    He is not a Sith, and his leadership doesnt call out Sith. He is not a Sith leader. It's quite simple.

    Him possibly having a better overall leadership doesnt make him something he is not. He may be a better leader, sure, but the team that better suits him is FO to help him get going faster.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    That's kinda how I interpreted the "Old GLs break the rock-paper-scissors goal of CG" thing. I'm far from convinced that this was an actual CG goal. But there's not really a point to SEE when SLKR already does everything he does but better. SLKR can counter JML fine, is better in the FO/Sith vs GR assault battle, and there are going to be way too many SLKRs in arena.

    SLKR is a superior Sith leader and does better damage--even against Jedi----with a host of amazing strengths in place of SEE's prot drain and smorgasbord of weaknesses.

    758f5v05b4h4.png

    They had a meta, comprised of teams made with 2 GLs in play. They said they wanted the new GLs to be on par with the old ones..... how does that play out and not become some sort of R-P-S like meta?

    SLKR is not a Sith leader.
    If SEE was actually on par then it's possible it could become rock-paper-scissors. Idk.

    Regarding SLKR not being a Sith leader, I summarized it recently:
    dgree wrote: »
    SEE's kit is Sith-centered, but SLKR does more for DS, Sith included, than SEE does.

    SEE:
    • Speed
    • Bonus mastery
    • Very modest mastery increases if the Sith allies even survive
    • Protection recovery for a generally HP-based faction
    • Reduced damage from one enemy attacker unless it's a GL


    SLKR:
    • Speed
    • Bonus mastery
    • Crit immunity against all enemies including GLs
    • Critical Damage bonus
    • Advantage plus CD Up for attackers, permataunt for tanks, mad TM gain for support
    • Max HP/Prot gain from TM removal
    • Everything SLKR does on his own--permastunning an enemy on start, cleansing debuffs, murdering everyone
    Sith with SLKR on offense are probably going to be quite a bit more common than SEE, since SLKR with Sith counters JML, and more Sith survive way more by the end of the battle.

    You said you didnt believe it was the plan, but that is the stated plan, so it seems that it was the plan. SEE not being quite there, 1 - does not make it not RPS like, as he can win, and the others are all mostly in line. So it's just not as balanced as we would all like.

    He is not a Sith, and his leadership doesnt call out Sith. He is not a Sith leader. It's quite simple.

    Him possibly having a better overall leadership doesnt make him something he is not. He may be a better leader, sure, but the team that better suits him is FO to help him get going faster.

    i think for most players it little matters whether SLKR sith on not, if he performs FAR much better with Siths than so-called sith leader SEE even against JML, we can omit some details regarding titles and tags and enjoy the game beating other 3 Gls easily, no point to farm see for this case at all.
  • Kyno
    27456 posts Moderator
    dgree wrote: »
    I guess I didn't see the rock-paper-scissors announcement. IMO a totally imbalanced multi-GL meta is not R-P-S. If scissors beats everything and you know there's only like a 5% chance that you'll be up against scissors, there's not much point to using paper and the game is broken.

    I'd prefer not to deal with semantics, so if the lack of a Sith tag means SLKR is "a better leader of a Sith squad" rather than a "Sith leader," that's fine.

    You did see the announcement that they are supposed to be on par, what do you call a situation where there are 4 GLs with composite teams that are all part of the similar meta power level? I would call that RPS like. (That is the stated plan so this is an idealistic question, to some extent)

    The key here is that in this game it will never be completely balanced RPS, it will only be RPS like. Each point having different weighted arrows pointing to different points, and each point being a venn diagram of team compositions.

    SLKR leading anything but full FO doesnt function as well as a supporting cast for him as FO does. Since his leadership doesnt call out Sith, he is not a Sith leader, again it's very simple.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    I guess I didn't see the rock-paper-scissors announcement. IMO a totally imbalanced multi-GL meta is not R-P-S. If scissors beats everything and you know there's only like a 5% chance that you'll be up against scissors, there's not much point to using paper and the game is broken.

    I'd prefer not to deal with semantics, so if the lack of a Sith tag means SLKR is "a better leader of a Sith squad" rather than a "Sith leader," that's fine.

    You did see the announcement that they are supposed to be on par, what do you call a situation where there are 4 GLs with composite teams that are all part of the similar meta power level? I would call that RPS like. (That is the stated plan so this is an idealistic question, to some extent)

    The key here is that in this game it will never be completely balanced RPS, it will only be RPS like. Each point having different weighted arrows pointing to different points, and each point being a venn diagram of team compositions.

    SLKR leading anything but full FO doesnt function as well as a supporting cast for him as FO does. Since his leadership doesnt call out Sith, he is not a Sith leader, again it's very simple.

    Although SLKR's leadership doesn't call out Sith, as he is not the Sith Leader, his team with SE gives results that people expected to see in SEE's team, that means it's doesn't matter at all whom we should call the Sith if we can beat absolutely each team on arena with help of Siths.
  • dgree wrote: »
    I'd prefer not to deal with semantics, so if the lack of a Sith tag means SLKR is "a better leader of a Sith squad" rather than a "Sith leader," that's fine.

  • Hey, CG, could you share your top secret for which purpose SEE was released, definitely not to counter JMl, I like more SLKR do it with Siths
  • Sewpot
    1556 posts Member
    So far from my playing SEE with sid,traya,SET (r7) and nihilus (r6) I have 100% success against any JML team comp and now that I’ve learned kill order for Rey team comps I’m on par for 100% as well.
    Against JML team comps i usually finish with 3-4 left on the field. Rey it always comes down to rey vs SEE.
    Reason I don’t put Sith empire instead of triumvirate is I want to save that team for TW or GAC so I want to practice with SEE without them.
  • Xagen wrote: »
    Hey, CG, could you share your top secret for which purpose SEE was released, definitely not to counter JMl, I like more SLKR do it with Siths

    Clearly his only use is countering JML, because that's the only thing he can do.

    Bur sadly they never tested SEE against Bastila lead JML w/wat and didn't forsee the community coming up with these ways to make JML unbeatable by SEE.

    I fought one of those Bastila lead JML with Wat in my 3v3 recently. It was sickening, I couldnt even take JML below full health and protection with SEE and the battle just timed out. Only prayer to beating that is Nihilus but his instakill doesn't work on GLs. Same with SEE, his instakill doesn't work on GLs.

    If you are a JML owner and have Bastila and Wat, it's a guaranteed win in GAC. Wish my SEE was nearly as useful.
  • BTW, kaaeb5wshq8p.png
    9101zmxaggxl.png
    While most players have made their choice, seems only CG think that SEE will be really popular with his non-Gl kit :)
Sign In or Register to comment.