SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • Kyno
    27452 posts Moderator
    Shiryu wrote: »
    Drydinxal wrote: »
    I think my favorite part of all this is to re-read the the dev insight. Basically, we need a bunch of tanks to protect SEE until his ultimate comes on line and then whammy! We win!

    Then you play with SEE and find out he is an unbelievable tank and needs a bunch of attackers because his damage (even in ultimate form) is weak. Did the devs even test him?

    Short answer... No

    Long answer.... We here at cg share one laptop and does thorough of testing as we can. However the rocking of our yacht in the ocean waves from our billions we makes life and testing strenuous and hard.

    Dont forget the time Crumb spilled his champagne all over the computer, and now that "S" really sticks.

    I have to say I love the idea that each dev is now independently wealthy due to being a part of this game, or that the company is just swimming in gold like Scrooge McDuck.
  • Kyno
    27452 posts Moderator
    dgree wrote: »
    I'm probably not paying attention since I don't listen to the podcasts, but I didn't notice CG expressly promoting the "rock paper scissors" meme, and afaik Kyno doesn't speak for CG. But the "rock paper scissors" thing is misleading on multiple levels, and it's mostly used as a euphemism for a populist gameplay system where a Sith GL is doomed to be inferior regardless of invested resources.

    "Rock paper scissor " like meta, just means to imply that each one may not be able to reliably beat all the others, but being at similar power allows them to win against 1 or 2 reliably (not counting mirrors, 3 if you are). This will all be team comp and mod varieties, that drive this.

    You seem to think people are out to get you, maybe you can focus more on information, rather than trying to dismiss people because they dont seem to jump on the band wagon you want them to.

    Also can you post the Bugs beating SEE? Still yet to see that one.
  • I don't think anyone is out to get me except you demanding I post a geos video. I wasn't complaining about that counter that multiple people already said was from a GA battle. All I did was explain the SEE weaknesses that would allow the counter to work.

    As for the more relevant matter, a good example of "rock, paper, scissors" is Starcraft 1. There were 3 balanced races that players could use, each with strengths and weaknesses against the others.

    The current GLs are nowhere near that level of balance. SEE is an attacker that struggles mightily to inflict damage and generally needs his squad to carry all roles in battle.
  • Bora
    411 posts Member
    As a SEE ultimate owner I've been testing him on the field, while searching for further suggestions on YouTube/other sources and I encountered the same issues on average. Still, I feel that he's not that far from being good without being op.

    After my trials and reading most of what has been written in the several threads about him being lackluster, what I see as the major problem is that compared to the stated design philosophy and suggested sinergies he's blatantly not performing as anyone with a good understanding of the game mechanics would expect to.

    In my understanding he's basically supposed to control the battlefield until he's ready to turn the table and become a killing machine, IE some sort of high risk/high reward strategy. The problem is that his build-up process, doesn't really work both because a lack of control and a lack of damage output, expecially notable after triggering the ultimate. While this is somewhat mitigated against non GL teams, when another GL comes into play (with the partial exception of JML) it becomes way more evident, to the point that several other DS/sith based teams performs better without him against the same opponents, GL included.

    If you want it to be high risk/high reward, I understand making the build-up to the ultimate somewhat slow, hence the suggestion of surrounding him with tanks. What I don't get is why then he doesn't work well with the best existing DS tanks as several players noted and explained.
    If you want him to play around manipulation to control the battlefield, I understand the design philosophy behind the deception/link mechanics, and should the kit designer wanted to emphasise the risky aspect of it, I even understand limiting some of the effects to specific factions, or making the "link" somewhat finnicky.
    What I don't get is why neither of the two really helps to stack stats to then transform into the publicized "devastating attacker" he's supposed to turn into AND the lack of control.
    If you want him to be a devastating attacker, I understand him foregoing survivability and control for the sake of balance once hitting the ultimate, but I don't get why then he neither push out a sufficient sudden damage burst to quickly end the battle even against other GLs, NOR dishing out sufficient damage right afterwards.

    It is a matter of balance to me. You can't have him slow to build up, a bad team player, with meh control, and then meh damage.
    To keep him in line with his design philosophy I'd rather not simply boost his stats, cause that'd make him too strong before the ultimate, hence undermining the slowly building idea. Same thing to how he controls the battlefield, it doesn't have to be too much or it won't be risky.
    I think the solution lies in some changes to just his most peculiar ability, link.

    IMHO link should be more persistent, so the moment one or both of the linked enemies die for whatever reason, he should gain an immediate bonus turn in which he is only able to use the link ability again. That should fix, without being OP, the excessive difficulty to reach the ultimate, while not overpowering his control of the battlefield.
    As for the lack of damage problem, I think that link should also be siphoning away offensive stats from the targets every time he or them take a turn, regardless whether an ability is used or not. Still, I'd leave both the defensive stats siphoning as it is, and the ultimate charge dependent on ability usage, not mere turns. Finally, he should be able to link an only target if there none other left on the field, possibly with halved the normal effects, especially to avoid exploitive strategies like SLKR soloes.
    Perhaps in the case of a lone GL on the opposite team the siphoning effects may be made to actually diminish their mastery instead of just amplifying SEE ones, but I'm not sure about that, it may turn out to be too much.


    Res non verba
  • The whole concept of Star Wars is based on confrontation between Good and Evil, Light side and Dark Side, Sith and Jedi! And i could understand if Sith Gl and Jedi Gl have some problems with countering each other. But what we have now seems ridiculous from the point of Star Wars plot.
  • Kyno
    27452 posts Moderator
    dgree wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is out to get me except you demanding I post a geos video. I wasn't complaining about that counter that multiple people already said was from a GA battle. All I did was explain the SEE weaknesses that would allow the counter to work.

    As for the more relevant matter, a good example of "rock, paper, scissors" is Starcraft 1. There were 3 balanced races that players could use, each with strengths and weaknesses against the others.

    The current GLs are nowhere near that level of balance. SEE is an attacker that struggles mightily to inflict damage and generally needs his squad to carry all roles in battle.

    If you want an educated decision to be made about the current situation, I would think you would want to present as much actual evidence as possible. Or you are no worse than the people you imagine on the other side that you keep trying to call out.

    There is no other side, we all want a good balanced game with powerful (but not OP) characters and teams. Maybe we can all come at it from that angle. Maybe not.

    Theory crafting is great, but doesnt always work the way players think. And that doesnt mean things can be adjusted on the SEE side to stop that.

    This is a very different game and setup than Starcraft. Yes that would be an example of a "rock paper scissor" like system, this would be a different system like that, and no they dont have to be the same. This is just a change in this game, to seemingly get away from the single team dominant arena. They will never be at that level of balance, there are too many factors. I am very certain that no matter the changes made, all 4 will not be able to reliably beat all 4. Never. But that's just my opinion.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    @Bora very solid rundown. "You can't have him slow to build up, a bad team player, with meh control, and then meh damage."

    I'm not sure what the solution would be for Linked since using it on a single target doesn't really make much sense, but hopefully there's some sort of alternative mechanism for ultimate charge other than waiting 50 deceived enemy turns. But at this point, if SEE lead and damage are overhauled but he has some serious weaknesses on defense and relies on Linked, I don't think it would be the worst outcome, even if there should be a way to deal with a lone enemy.
  • Bora
    411 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    dgree wrote: »
    @Bora very solid rundown. "You can't have him slow to build up, a bad team player, with meh control, and then meh damage."

    I'm not sure what the solution would be for Linked since using it on a single target doesn't really make much sense, but hopefully there's some sort of alternative mechanism for ultimate charge other than waiting 50 deceived enemy turns. But at this point, if SEE lead and damage are overhauled but he has some serious weaknesses on defense and relies on Linked, I don't think it would be the worst outcome, even if there should be a way to deal with a lone enemy.

    Yeah, I don't really like the idea of "half linking" too tbh, my line of thought was that as seen in the movie he basically wanted to restore himself to even greater heights through siphoning away the power of a diad. Perhaps the idea of siphoning from just one person, somewhat like Darth Vitiate did, isn't too much of a stretch (malak kinda does that too). Also, I'd leave the lead as it is to avoid him building up to the ult too fast, but it should be tested thoroughly and see how it goes. If it really doesn't work, then deceived enemies providing slightly more charge while linked ones slightly less might be the way.
    Post edited by Bora on
    Res non verba
  • Bora
    411 posts Member
    dgree wrote: »
    @Bora very solid rundown. "You can't have him slow to build up, a bad team player, with meh control, and then meh damage."

    I'm not sure what the solution would be for Linked since using it on a single target doesn't really make much sense, but hopefully there's some sort of alternative mechanism for ultimate charge other than waiting 50 deceived enemy turns. But at this point, if SEE lead and damage are overhauled but he has some serious weaknesses on defense and relies on Linked, I don't think it would be the worst outcome, even if there should be a way to deal with a lone enemy.

    Prehaps he could Link allies as well, so if theres only 1 enemy you can link him with an ally. That way you could drain your allies protection to make yourself stronger as well.

    Nice idea! Fits the character too as well!
    Res non verba
  • Quite a few good idea's been posted in here now, hopefully CG are taking note..
  • Eweff
    366 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    I have him maxed out and I have all Relic 7 Sith with him maxed out... he’s a joke.

    Wasn’t it you that had the SEE loss to GEOs?
  • There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)
  • Eweff
    366 posts Member
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)

    Because he is a GL that the devs specifically defined as a “devastating attacker”
  • Kyno
    27452 posts Moderator
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)
    Eweff wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)

    Because he is a GL that the devs specifically defined as a “devastating attacker”

    Neither of these are reasons to buff him.

    The only reason to buff him is if his game play is not meeting expectations, both us and them.
    (Which seems to be at least 50% true right now)

    If you want to bring in the statements they have made, then why isnt everyone trying him with a bunch of tanks on his team, they also said that was where he would thrive.

    Let's try to focus on game play.
  • Eweff
    366 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)
    Eweff wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)

    Because he is a GL that the devs specifically defined as a “devastating attacker”

    Neither of these are reasons to buff him.

    The only reason to buff him is if his game play is not meeting expectations, both us and them.
    (Which seems to be at least 50% true right now)

    If you want to bring in the statements they have made, then why isnt everyone trying him with a bunch of tanks on his team, they also said that was where he would thrive.

    Let's try to focus on game play.

    I wasn’t arguing that he should or shouldn’t be buffed, I was just responding to his question of “why would he be super strong”? But I definitely agree with your point there. I’d be interested to see some testing with full tanks. Let SEE do all the heavy lifting on damage and perhaps he gets his unlimited power off more than once.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)
    Eweff wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)

    Because he is a GL that the devs specifically defined as a “devastating attacker”

    If you want to bring in the statements they have made, then why isnt everyone trying him with a bunch of tanks on his team, they also said that was where he would thrive.

    Let's try to focus on game play.
    I agree with you, but on the tank thing: they did and it's terrible. Without controlling the enemy team or killing them, SEE is doomed. He just dies a tiny bit more slowly. He doesn't buff the tanks enough, and he doesn't do enough damage for their tanking to serve a purpose.

    But that's okay. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense--that's why the only SEE counter (perhaps a bit of a flimsy one) to a standard SLKR squad right now is killing SLKR with Vader as fast as possible while SEE engages in galactic voyeurism.
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)
    Eweff wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)

    Because he is a GL that the devs specifically defined as a “devastating attacker”

    Neither of these are reasons to buff him.

    The only reason to buff him is if his game play is not meeting expectations, both us and them.
    (Which seems to be at least 50% true right now)

    If you want to bring in the statements they have made, then why isnt everyone trying him with a bunch of tanks on his team, they also said that was where he would thrive.

    Let's try to focus on game play.

    I can't speak for all 200+ of us SEE owners but I can speak for me, one of the 22 SEEs that were in 1st at payout in arena on SWGOH.GG. I have tried 3 tanks, Sion, Malak, SET and Traya (who is kinda tanky) and it fails miserably vs. Kylo and Rey. May be able to beat JML. I have even put great mods on Royal Guard and ran him with 4 tanks. didn't go well. Other than maybe kylo, is CG ever right when they give these suggestions? (Serious question).
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • Kyno
    27452 posts Moderator
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)
    Eweff wrote: »
    There's an obvious solution here. Nerf SLK, DRevs, Traya, EP to make GLEE the supreme end-all super powerful sith of all time even though he canonically isn't.

    (obviously sarcasm about the nerf, but Palps was not the most dominant sith of all time. He was more of a manipulator than a warrior so why would he be super strong in SWGOH?)

    Because he is a GL that the devs specifically defined as a “devastating attacker”

    Neither of these are reasons to buff him.

    The only reason to buff him is if his game play is not meeting expectations, both us and them.
    (Which seems to be at least 50% true right now)

    If you want to bring in the statements they have made, then why isnt everyone trying him with a bunch of tanks on his team, they also said that was where he would thrive.

    Let's try to focus on game play.

    I can't speak for all 200+ of us SEE owners but I can speak for me, one of the 22 SEEs that were in 1st at payout in arena on SWGOH.GG. I have tried 3 tanks, Sion, Malak, SET and Traya (who is kinda tanky) and it fails miserably vs. Kylo and Rey. May be able to beat JML. I have even put great mods on Royal Guard and ran him with 4 tanks. didn't go well. Other than maybe kylo, is CG ever right when they give these suggestions? (Serious question).

    No, my statement was more directed at the cherry picking which parts of the insight they give us to point at as "the way".

    Their suggestions are always ok at best, and I dont think they are really intended to be great, just to get the ball rolling. They have stated they dont want to tell people to much on "how to play", even when they know betting comps exist.
  • Eweff wrote: »

    Because he is a GL that the devs specifically defined as a “devastating attacker”

    Eh that doesn't mean anything. there's alot of toons in-game with an attacker role that don't have great damage output: Mission Vao, Count Dooku, Wicket, IG-88, Dengar, Kylo Ren, Farmboy, ROLO, Princess Leia, Greedo, Darth Maul (except vs Jedi), Sideous, Jyn Erso, Chirrut Imwe, IG-86, Wampa (give someone loads of DOTs and he can do it but he's not as strong as you'd expect), Savage Opress, Rose Tico, Sith Assassin.....i mean looking at the attacker category there's only a handful of toons that hit for big damage. at least one of them has had 2 reworks to get to that point, one has had one rework.

    Plus he's an old puppet at this point. Of course he's weaker than SLK and Rey in attack power. They're both young and at the height of their strength. It's rather silly though that Rey's lvl 1 offense stats are over 1k less than SEE and SLK, though. but that's just a fun observation.
  • dgree
    382 posts Member
    It's a good point regarding suggestions. Those should be taken with a grain of salt, and of course Sith Assassin is useless against Hux.

    But the parts about SEE being an amazing attacker are basically in the promotional material. Ultimate SEE hitting SLKR for less than 30k crit damage cannot fairly be said to devastate SLKR, right? I think that's all people are saying here. The team suggestions were based on this damage, since the idea is to protect SEE until ultimate, at which point he becomes A Very Strong Devastating Attacker. Except he doesn't (damage issues), and that assumes his chances of survival to ultimate are decent (leadership issues and sometimes Linked issues).

    We know these are the issues, and we've known these are the issues, so I don't blame people who went hard on SEE (getting ultimate SEE so fast takes quite the investment) being upset that the last thing on record is all about SEE's awesome damage. That part at least isn't cherrypicking, it's the whole idea of his character as far as we know.
  • LordDunbar
    413 posts Member
    edited October 2020



    Plus he's an old puppet at this point. Of course he's weaker than SLK and Rey in attack power. They're both young and at the height of their strength.

    Lol he literally shoots lightning in the air and destroys an entire fleet bro 😂
  • LordDunbar wrote: »



    Plus he's an old puppet at this point. Of course he's weaker than SLK and Rey in attack power. They're both young and at the height of their strength.

    Lol he literally shoots lightning in the air and destroys an entire fleet bro 😂

    what game mode will that be happening in?
  • Physical Strength /= Mental/Force Strength.

    Or have you not played any rpg, mmo, video game, or dnd ever?

    Frail old wizard dropping nukes of fire... or in this case lighting
  • Yeah, this Palp should be at his height as well, both in-game and out of game. Mastery of the Force strengthens with age, even if physical capabilities are weaker.
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    LordDunbar wrote: »



    Plus he's an old puppet at this point. Of course he's weaker than SLK and Rey in attack power. They're both young and at the height of their strength.

    Lol he literally shoots lightning in the air and destroys an entire fleet bro 😂

    what game mode will that be happening in?

    It will be the upcoming death star raid. You can use him to shoot down ships.
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • TargetEadu wrote: »
    Yeah, this Palp should be at his height as well, both in-game and out of game. Mastery of the Force strengthens with age, even if physical capabilities are weaker.

    He was killed by his barely trained granddaughter. :trollface:
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    I realize what is so frustrating about SEE for me-it is basically his performance, post ultimate 1v1 vs. Kylo at the end of the fight. There is a legitimate support for SEE being the most difficult to kill character in the game 1v1. I mean it took TWO OTHER "Galactic Legends" to finally kill him in the movie... He should do MUCH more damage as well as retain his So Be It, Jedi special in Ultimate. Maybe just having that special available post ultimate could be enough?
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
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