I checked in to get an update. Nothing major to report, but the devs are in the process of looking at data and analytics, and will likely be contrasting that info with the other GLs to see how things measure up.
So, not sure what'll happen, but they're taking a deeper dive based on player sentiment (meaning you're being heard).
Appreciate the non-update update. Unfortunately a lack of good news is when you're needed the most.
kit will still be a clunky mess and he'll still be useless in most if not all places.
Yeh. He's really only good in Arena (only because he's a hard counter to JML and there's so many JMLs), and even there, he's not the dominant force. If this GL drop didn't have JML or SEE didn't counter him, can anyone honestly say that SEE is on par or has any use in the game at all? Thank the lord he can at least do 1 thing fairly well. But he needs to be able to do more.
"There are so many JMLs"
Man I wish. If there were I wouldn't have the problem I have in arena where 35-40 of the top 50 are Kylos. So everyone saying "at least he's great in arena" are cordially invited to bite my **** because I have gotten absolutely nothing out of being one of the first to unlock him. I mean zilch. I already had plenty of 4/4 DS Geo teams and could already beat all the Assault Battles he's involved in. So yeah, I'm a little bitter about it
I'm right there with you. I can get max waves in phase 4 even before SEE was released. I don't get anything out of him for raids. PVE otherwise is a joke with no use for him. LS GEO is where all the power is needed and he obviously can't be used there. I got him around day 3 (was waiting on Piet shards) and have been underwhelmed since then.
TBH I think the best fix would probably revolve around making SEE’s mastery stacking non-linear, either by making it quadratic, i.e. “Whenever a Decieved/Linked enemy takes a turn, SEE gains 2% mastery for every turn a D/L enemy has taken in the encounter” or exponential “SEE gains 10% of his CURRENT mastery”.
That would fit CG’s original vision of a toon who completely nukes out late into encounters after his allies are dead, keeping damage lowish to start with but extreme if you take too long to kill him
Not exactly. The real issue his damage is neutered due to draining protection and yet against any PVE he's not allowed to drain protection. The solution is to remove link, give some other zeta ability that gains him protection stats while also buffing his team, increase his damage to similar levels as Rey/SLKR, adjust his Ultimate charge to based on enemy turns taken, and allow us to continue gaining protection, but this should be adjusted to bonus protection that works for all toons.
Well, SEE had a good run. I hope people had fun with him. SLKR's opening AOE already hit about has hard as SEE's one ultimate AOE gimmick attack (his basic was already way stronger than post-ultimate SEE), and now with Gideon, Gideon can get a 20% TM boost under SLKR lead, drain the enemy squad's TM bars and obliterate their offense, and give SLKR a 50% offense boost for his AOE. The AOE will probably hit harder than SEE's ultimate AOE vs Jedi.
I'm serious, btw. I know that sounded whiny, but SEE was barely holding on to meta relevance as something other than a niche counter toon. People have been trying hard to find ways to make SEE even able to climb through SLKR, and generally have resorted to using non-SEE counter squads since SEE doesn't do enough.
Now Sith counter squads will have to somehow survive this SLKR nuke (?!), then will somehow have to simultaneously control SLKR and kill MG while their offense is crushed and MG has 100% prot up. And then kill SLKR.
Not an easy task.
For those thinking that the comparison to SLKR is an "obsession," I remind people once again that I'm not saying SEE should be stronger than SLKR, but rather two important things:
1) SLKR is a major part of the preexisting meta before SEE's release, and so of course is super relevant and determines whether SEE is a similarly powerful part of the meta or just a counter squad
2) SLKR is the only other example of an strong attacker and a DS GL, and is the only comparison we have for future DS GLs and attacker GLs, so it's relevant to SEE's viability both now and in the future.
I get what you're saying about SEE not being an attacker, but he has the tag for a reason. SEE being an "attacker" is like every other strength he's supposed to have--it's supposed to mask a weakness
SEE is an "attacker" despite dismal damage in general because they don't want him supporting Sith and they don't want him tanking for them.
SEE is a GL because they don't want him used with other GLs and because it means people will buy mad relics to get him.
SEE is a leader for ultimate because they don't want you using other Sith leaders.
SEE gets bonus damage vs Jedi because his attack multipliers are actually garbage.
SEE gets stacking mastery and the GL ability and an ultimate form simply to support his GL tag since they're required, even though his mastery stacking is low, even JKL has fear/stun immune without GL ability, and the ultimate is just an excuse to make SEE super weak before ultimate, and after ultimate he loses most of his zetas.
It's one giant bait-and-switch with an anti-JML gimmick so that one SEE attack against a weakened Jedi squad is what people see instead of SEE's performance in basically every other scenario. I'm not saying that this was intentional, or that CG released SEE to defraud people, and I don't want anyone to assume bad intentions of CG. However, the same outcome is what we're left with as a result of no serious attempt to address this.
"The intention of the bait-and-switch is to encourage purchases of substituted goods, making consumers satisfied with the available stock offered, as an alternative to a disappointment or inconvenience of acquiring no goods (or bait) at all, and reckoning on a seemingly partial recovery of sunk costs expended trying to obtain the bait."
Here, players were advertised a GL, a devastating attacker of similar power level despite his apparent weaknesses. They offered the current SEE with his limited performance as an alternative to the GL people expected, providing Sith players with partial recovery of the sunk costs of everything they already invested trying to get the GL they expected.
I get what you're saying about SEE not being an attacker, but he has the tag for a reason. SEE being an "attacker" is like every other strength he's supposed to have--it's supposed to mask a weakness
SEE is an "attacker" despite dismal damage in general because they don't want him supporting Sith and they don't want him tanking for them.
SEE is a GL because they don't want him used with other GLs and because it means people will buy mad relics to get him.
SEE is a leader for ultimate because they don't want you using other Sith leaders.
SEE gets bonus damage vs Jedi because his attack multipliers are actually garbage.
SEE gets stacking mastery and the GL ability and an ultimate form simply to support his GL tag since they're required, even though his mastery stacking is low, even JKL has fear/stun immune without GL ability, and the ultimate is just an excuse to make SEE super weak before ultimate, and after ultimate he loses most of his zetas.
It's one giant bait-and-switch with an anti-JML gimmick so that one SEE attack against a weakened Jedi squad is what people see instead of SEE's performance in basically every other scenario. I'm not saying that this was intentional, or that CG released SEE to defraud people, and I don't want anyone to assume bad intentions of CG. However, the same outcome is what we're left with as a result of no serious attempt to address this.
"The intention of the bait-and-switch is to encourage purchases of substituted goods, making consumers satisfied with the available stock offered, as an alternative to a disappointment or inconvenience of acquiring no goods (or bait) at all, and reckoning on a seemingly partial recovery of sunk costs expended trying to obtain the bait."
Here, players were advertised a GL, a devastating attacker of similar power level despite his apparent weaknesses. They offered the current SEE with his limited performance as an alternative to the GL people expected, providing Sith players with partial recovery of the sunk costs of everything they already invested trying to get the GL they expected.
Come in here and tell us why CG would think otherwise?
Your players are more then upset. It's more then this forums to. Murmurs on reddit. Multiple discord servers. Multiple line chats. You say they're still looking at things. They've proven they can make competent kits that are full of flavor and design.
Have the Developers themselves come in here and explain their actions.
WE AS PAYING CUSTOMERS ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE PRODUCT THAT WAS PUT OUT AND A LOT OF US PURCHASED.
Tbh, I think both new GL's are not that great design wise. It is stupid imo that JKR or Bast lead is better than the GL's lead. JML should lead a squad of Jedi imo. But the difference between JML and SEE is, that the Jedi faction has better characters and that JML doesn't have anti-synergy with his faction or makes them worse.
The strongest Sith don't need SEE, he has anti-synergy with them or he makes them weaker:
Sith Empire: Fear slows down getting to Ult and less Ferocity means less damage. Darth Revan lead is about sacrificing def for insane off. With the annoying tank Malak to still have a strong def and Fear/CBM to control the enemy.
Vader: He is just a beast on his own and Wat/EP Lead makes him even better and his own Lead has TM reduction. He doesn't need SEE. SEE needs him.
Sith Triumvirate: They have very strong synergy with each other and then they use 2 leftover Sith to make a strong full 5 character team (say SET, Assassin or Sidious). Traya lead gives some nice survivability with CA and Healing. And any new character/team that relies on Counter attacks is most likely doomed. Sion's main strength is destroyed by SEE lead. Sion's whole power in lore is that he cannot be killed because of his hatred. And Nihilus can also Annihilate characters.
Dooku is more a Separatist character and Palpatine an Empire leader imo. Sith don't have much left after that. Like it is said many times in this thread: SEE doesn't carry his team, like Kylo and Rey 100% do, he gets carried and makes amazing teams and counters worse. This is also why I think JML needs some tweaks to make him the better lead and have his Ult be meaningful. But at least he has a real use in a JKR or Bast lead and makes them stronger.
I don't have the whole Sith faction relic'd so maybe my assessment of the best Sith/SEE is wrong. Just my opinion
I get what you're saying about SEE not being an attacker, but he has the tag for a reason. SEE being an "attacker" is like every other strength he's supposed to have--it's supposed to mask a weakness
SEE is an "attacker" despite dismal damage in general because they don't want him supporting Sith and they don't want him tanking for them.
SEE is a GL because they don't want him used with other GLs and because it means people will buy mad relics to get him.
SEE is a leader for ultimate because they don't want you using other Sith leaders.
SEE gets bonus damage vs Jedi because his attack multipliers are actually garbage.
SEE gets stacking mastery and the GL ability and an ultimate form simply to support his GL tag since they're required, even though his mastery stacking is low, even JKL has fear/stun immune without GL ability, and the ultimate is just an excuse to make SEE super weak before ultimate, and after ultimate he loses most of his zetas.
It's one giant bait-and-switch with an anti-JML gimmick so that one SEE attack against a weakened Jedi squad is what people see instead of SEE's performance in basically every other scenario. I'm not saying that this was intentional, or that CG released SEE to defraud people, and I don't want anyone to assume bad intentions of CG. However, the same outcome is what we're left with as a result of no serious attempt to address this.
"The intention of the bait-and-switch is to encourage purchases of substituted goods, making consumers satisfied with the available stock offered, as an alternative to a disappointment or inconvenience of acquiring no goods (or bait) at all, and reckoning on a seemingly partial recovery of sunk costs expended trying to obtain the bait."
Here, players were advertised a GL, a devastating attacker of similar power level despite his apparent weaknesses. They offered the current SEE with his limited performance as an alternative to the GL people expected, providing Sith players with partial recovery of the sunk costs of everything they already invested trying to get the GL they expected.
Come in here and tell us why CG would think otherwise?
Your players are more then upset. It's more then this forums to. Murmurs on reddit. Multiple discord servers. Multiple line chats. You say they're still looking at things. They've proven they can make competent kits that are full of flavor and design.
Have the Developers themselves come in here and explain their actions.
WE AS PAYING CUSTOMERS ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE PRODUCT THAT WAS PUT OUT AND A LOT OF US PURCHASED.
It does feel like a massive bait and switch. It’s also a little concerning that it’s taking so long to hear anything.
Tbh, I think both new GL's are not that great design wise. It is stupid imo that JKR or Bast lead is better than the GL's lead. JML should lead a squad of Jedi imo. But the difference between JML and SEE is, that the Jedi faction has better characters and that JML doesn't have anti-synergy with his faction or makes them worse.
The strongest Sith don't need SEE, he has anti-synergy with them or he makes them weaker:
Sith Empire: Fear slows down getting to Ult and less Ferocity means less damage. Darth Revan lead is about sacrificing def for insane off. With the annoying tank Malak to still have a strong def and Fear/CBM to control the enemy.
Vader: He is just a beast on his own and Wat/EP Lead makes him even better and his own Lead has TM reduction. He doesn't need SEE. SEE needs him.
Sith Triumvirate: They have very strong synergy with each other and then they use 2 leftover Sith to make a strong full 5 character team (say SET, Assassin or Sidious). Traya lead gives some nice survivability with CA and Healing. And any new character/team that relies on Counter attacks is most likely doomed. Sion's main strength is destroyed by SEE lead. Sion's whole power in lore is that he cannot be killed because of his hatred. And Nihilus can also Annihilate characters.
Dooku is more a Separatist character and Palpatine an Empire leader imo. Sith don't have much left after that. Like it is said many times in this thread: SEE doesn't carry his team, like Kylo and Rey 100% do, he gets carried and makes amazing teams and counters worse. This is also why I think JML needs some tweaks to make him the better lead and have his Ult be meaningful. But at least he has a real use in a JKR or Bast lead and makes them stronger.
I don't have the whole Sith faction relic'd so maybe my assessment of the best Sith/SEE is wrong. Just my opinion
Your not wrong in your assessment. This is how it entirely feels. SEE doesn't do much by himself and its always the other sith carrying him. He provides limited utility.
It's also funny how one of the proposed fixes for deceive was to bake in -offense/defense/crit chance ect... then Gideon gets a powerful debuff that does exactly that.. along with a Kit that actually does something decent.
Gideon is a better GL then SEE... and there is less lore about him.
It's also funny how one of the proposed fixes for deceive was to bake in -offense/defense/crit chance ect... then Gideon gets a powerful debuff that does exactly that.. along with a Kit that actually does something decent.
Gideon is a better GL then SEE... and there is less lore about him.
Lol
In typical CG fashion
Players: We are upset an expensive character is not working
SEE useless in TW/GA because of banner inefficiency.
Not shocking tho. Heros that can go with Rey are much newer and mucj more powerful. Sith is mostly old and outdated (except for Vader who got the recent re-work to his kit). SEE's biggest weakness is his fragile faction.
Replies
I'm right there with you. I can get max waves in phase 4 even before SEE was released. I don't get anything out of him for raids. PVE otherwise is a joke with no use for him. LS GEO is where all the power is needed and he obviously can't be used there. I got him around day 3 (was waiting on Piet shards) and have been underwhelmed since then.
FFS CG... fix SEE.
That would fit CG’s original vision of a toon who completely nukes out late into encounters after his allies are dead, keeping damage lowish to start with but extreme if you take too long to kill him
Now Sith counter squads will have to somehow survive this SLKR nuke (?!), then will somehow have to simultaneously control SLKR and kill MG while their offense is crushed and MG has 100% prot up. And then kill SLKR.
Not an easy task.
For those thinking that the comparison to SLKR is an "obsession," I remind people once again that I'm not saying SEE should be stronger than SLKR, but rather two important things:
1) SLKR is a major part of the preexisting meta before SEE's release, and so of course is super relevant and determines whether SEE is a similarly powerful part of the meta or just a counter squad
2) SLKR is the only other example of an strong attacker and a DS GL, and is the only comparison we have for future DS GLs and attacker GLs, so it's relevant to SEE's viability both now and in the future.
SEE is an "attacker" despite dismal damage in general because they don't want him supporting Sith and they don't want him tanking for them.
SEE is a GL because they don't want him used with other GLs and because it means people will buy mad relics to get him.
SEE is a leader for ultimate because they don't want you using other Sith leaders.
SEE gets bonus damage vs Jedi because his attack multipliers are actually garbage.
SEE gets stacking mastery and the GL ability and an ultimate form simply to support his GL tag since they're required, even though his mastery stacking is low, even JKL has fear/stun immune without GL ability, and the ultimate is just an excuse to make SEE super weak before ultimate, and after ultimate he loses most of his zetas.
It's one giant bait-and-switch with an anti-JML gimmick so that one SEE attack against a weakened Jedi squad is what people see instead of SEE's performance in basically every other scenario. I'm not saying that this was intentional, or that CG released SEE to defraud people, and I don't want anyone to assume bad intentions of CG. However, the same outcome is what we're left with as a result of no serious attempt to address this.
"The intention of the bait-and-switch is to encourage purchases of substituted goods, making consumers satisfied with the available stock offered, as an alternative to a disappointment or inconvenience of acquiring no goods (or bait) at all, and reckoning on a seemingly partial recovery of sunk costs expended trying to obtain the bait."
Here, players were advertised a GL, a devastating attacker of similar power level despite his apparent weaknesses. They offered the current SEE with his limited performance as an alternative to the GL people expected, providing Sith players with partial recovery of the sunk costs of everything they already invested trying to get the GL they expected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch
You might not think it or say it.. but ill be the bad guy and say it.
This was intentional. CG only cares about money.
Your right. This was a MASSIVE bait and switch.
@CG_Doja_Fett @CG_TopHat @CG_SBCrumb
Come in here and tell us why CG would think otherwise?
Your players are more then upset. It's more then this forums to. Murmurs on reddit. Multiple discord servers. Multiple line chats. You say they're still looking at things. They've proven they can make competent kits that are full of flavor and design.
Have the Developers themselves come in here and explain their actions.
WE AS PAYING CUSTOMERS ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE PRODUCT THAT WAS PUT OUT AND A LOT OF US PURCHASED.
What needs fixing? Provide reasons to your post instead of acting "Me angy, CG fix pls"
Maybe other people don't have your complaint too.
2k post with all the evidence ever asked for, multiple people having the same issues, multiple sources.
The strongest Sith don't need SEE, he has anti-synergy with them or he makes them weaker:
Sith Empire: Fear slows down getting to Ult and less Ferocity means less damage. Darth Revan lead is about sacrificing def for insane off. With the annoying tank Malak to still have a strong def and Fear/CBM to control the enemy.
Vader: He is just a beast on his own and Wat/EP Lead makes him even better and his own Lead has TM reduction. He doesn't need SEE. SEE needs him.
Sith Triumvirate: They have very strong synergy with each other and then they use 2 leftover Sith to make a strong full 5 character team (say SET, Assassin or Sidious). Traya lead gives some nice survivability with CA and Healing. And any new character/team that relies on Counter attacks is most likely doomed. Sion's main strength is destroyed by SEE lead. Sion's whole power in lore is that he cannot be killed because of his hatred. And Nihilus can also Annihilate characters.
Dooku is more a Separatist character and Palpatine an Empire leader imo. Sith don't have much left after that. Like it is said many times in this thread: SEE doesn't carry his team, like Kylo and Rey 100% do, he gets carried and makes amazing teams and counters worse. This is also why I think JML needs some tweaks to make him the better lead and have his Ult be meaningful. But at least he has a real use in a JKR or Bast lead and makes them stronger.
I don't have the whole Sith faction relic'd so maybe my assessment of the best Sith/SEE is wrong. Just my opinion
It does feel like a massive bait and switch. It’s also a little concerning that it’s taking so long to hear anything.
Your not wrong in your assessment. This is how it entirely feels. SEE doesn't do much by himself and its always the other sith carrying him. He provides limited utility.
It's also funny how one of the proposed fixes for deceive was to bake in -offense/defense/crit chance ect... then Gideon gets a powerful debuff that does exactly that.. along with a Kit that actually does something decent.
Gideon is a better GL then SEE... and there is less lore about him.
Lol
In typical CG fashion
Players: We are upset an expensive character is not working
CG:
Dude, there are 2K posts here and multiple youtube videos and posts on reddit which give various reasons and proof that SEE is not a GL level toon.
The post you are responding to is a merge from individual topic that asks gideon not to be released unless see is fixed xD
Rey can beat SEE easily with entire team alive at end.
SEE can beat Rey most of the time, but rare that any of your team is alive at the end.
SEE useless in TW/GA because of banner inefficiency.
Not shocking tho. Heros that can go with Rey are much newer and mucj more powerful. Sith is mostly old and outdated (except for Vader who got the recent re-work to his kit). SEE's biggest weakness is his fragile faction.
Just a new video of SLKR soloing SEE. This time in 3v3. Nothing new or surprising, if SLKR can solo him in 1v5, he can do it in 1v3.
Easy to do. If you own JML you already have the heros needed.