i absolutely sure that most people who didn't have GLs at all, knowing that with introduction of Palp and Luke would be introduced the system rock paper scissor, never, i repeat never would go to farm SEE. i have a couple of teammates from guild, who stopped farming their first Gl SEE, and started farming SLKR, because SLKR beats all three teams successfully.
I don't have a GL and I'm farming for SEE, everything that's happened since the new GL's were released hasn't changed my mind about getting him because I never wanted to gear up who was needed for either kylo or rey. Plus I already had 4 of the requirements relic'd (just not high enough) for getting SEE.
JML would've been a possibility, except that I don't even have wampa unlocked, so getting JKL would take me ages to get anyway.
I also farm See as it's the closest Gl for me, but i just had a look at swgoh data and saw how unpopular is SEE now: 241 farmed Palp against 1975 Luke, taking into account that Luke is the most expensive Gl for today. So maybe his "place in the R-P-S meta of the moment" is underestimated by most players ).
Once there's enough of a mix in your (my) arena shard, you'll be able to pick your opponents enough to avoid SLKR. I do that now anyway with my arena fights, there's teams that I know I can't beat so I avoid them.
One of the more disturbing issues regarding the release of the new GLs is actually lack of clarification of what we can expect from them.
They used the term "similar power level", yet nowhere gave us the impression that certain GLs can't beat others. To cut to the chase; what is the point going for SEE when 80% of your arena shard is SLKR? Why shouldn't you expect the recently released GL to be able to at least beat the other GLs? The two prievous GLs were able to.
If the whole idea was a "rock paper scissor" meta in arena, shouldn't we at least be told it was something they were aiming for with these 4 GLs?
Unfortunately there is just no way to do that. They can never fully predict who will always beat who. They can design and do what testing they can, but the player base will always come up with some edge case or other examples of teams that will change things.
By putting out 4 GLs, and saying they are aiming for them to be of similar power, is saying they are aiming for some sort of "rock paper scissor" like meta.
i absolutely sure that most people who didn't have GLs at all, knowing that with introduction of Palp and Luke would be introduced the system rock paper scissor, never, i repeat never would go to farm SEE. i have a couple of teammates from guild, who stopped farming their first Gl SEE, and started farming SLKR, because SLKR beats all three teams successfully.
I don't have a GL and I'm farming for SEE, everything that's happened since the new GL's were released hasn't changed my mind about getting him because I never wanted to gear up who was needed for either kylo or rey. Plus I already had 4 of the requirements relic'd (just not high enough) for getting SEE.
JML would've been a possibility, except that I don't even have wampa unlocked, so getting JKL would take me ages to get anyway.
I also farm See as it's the closest Gl for me, but i just had a look at swgoh data and saw how unpopular is SEE now: 241 farmed Palp against 1975 Luke, taking into account that Luke is the most expensive Gl for today. So maybe his "place in the R-P-S meta of the moment" is underestimated by most players ).
Once there's enough of a mix in your (my) arena shard, you'll be able to pick your opponents enough to avoid SLKR. I do that now anyway with my arena fights, there's teams that I know I can't beat so I avoid them.
Why does SEE keep linking Wat though? That's an AI issue, you have to link JML because of the tank tech, but bastila in the first link then JKL in the second so he dies when SEE gets his ultimate.
Although while they're mixing teams, if you're attacking that squad, throw han in there to stun Wat first and a buff dispel to get rid of Luke's taunt from the bastila lead.
Why does SEE keep linking Wat though? That's an AI issue, you have to link JML because of the tank tech, but bastila in the first link then JKL in the second so he dies when SEE gets his ultimate.
Although while they're mixing teams, if you're attacking that squad, throw han in there to stun Wat first and a buff dispel to get rid of Luke's taunt from the bastila lead.
By the way, Kylo can kill him in such mixed team, and without Han. Sorry to say.
Why does SEE keep linking Wat though? That's an AI issue, you have to link JML because of the tank tech, but bastila in the first link then JKL in the second so he dies when SEE gets his ultimate.
Although while they're mixing teams, if you're attacking that squad, throw han in there to stun Wat first and a buff dispel to get rid of Luke's taunt from the bastila lead.
By the way, Kylo can kill him in such mixed team, and without Han. Sorry to say.
And I still don't care, I'll never get kylo or rey because I don't want them. They threw that team together to beat a specific palps team, it's the whole point of theory crafting and there'll be many more in the future.
Why does SEE keep linking Wat though? That's an AI issue, you have to link JML because of the tank tech, but bastila in the first link then JKL in the second so he dies when SEE gets his ultimate.
Although while they're mixing teams, if you're attacking that squad, throw han in there to stun Wat first and a buff dispel to get rid of Luke's taunt from the bastila lead.
By the way, Kylo can kill him in such mixed team, and without Han. Sorry to say.
And I still don't care, I'll never get kylo or rey because I don't want them. They threw that team together to beat a specific palps team, it's the whole point of theory crafting and there'll be many more in the future.
Ok, it's absolutely your own business whom you are going to farm, but i speak on behalf of my friends from guild, and the fact that Papl's state deceived our expectations is true.
If memory serves me right I think CG have hinted for a long time that they wish to move away from Arena being the most important game mode but it’s difficult because of it being the main source of crystal income. I think that this is an excellent way of doing this. Once you get a GL you’re guaranteed to have at least have a chance to get first in Arena. But having several GLs will benefit you in other game modes, be it current or future modes, that could be more important than Arena as a source of crystals or gear or whatever is important at that time.
This is good in concept. I have Rey and SEE. Rey is great in arena, GAC, tw, and tb. Not so great I’m raids though. The problem is SEE doesn’t excel in any game modes at this time. Maybe they are actually going to release some compelling content, like a new raid with Jedi as the main enemies where SEE guarantees you the best rewards? If that were the case, it may be a reasonable trade off for being bad in every other game mode compared to the other 3 GLs.
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If every new GL is on par power level than the current ones, then just keep SLKR.
Stop playing and come back in 10 years, you will still have the best squad in the game and there will be 10.000 players with 10.000 SLKR squads
That would be true if the current GLs were:
1- going to be the last GLs released
2- going to be the last toons released
At any point down the line they could release a non GL that supports or raises one up just enough to be ahead of the others, or at least a few.
I mean we already see JML giving SLKR trouble.
Why would anyone ever get future GLs when these new ones are worse than the old ones? Get SLKR, get your arena crystals, and call it a day. There is no way in spending for future GLs again when they underperform to the old ones.
If every new GL is on par power level than the current ones, then just keep SLKR.
Stop playing and come back in 10 years, you will still have the best squad in the game and there will be 10.000 players with 10.000 SLKR squads
That would be true if the current GLs were:
1- going to be the last GLs released
2- going to be the last toons released
At any point down the line they could release a non GL that supports or raises one up just enough to be ahead of the others, or at least a few.
I mean we already see JML giving SLKR trouble.
Why would anyone ever get future GLs when these new ones are worse than the old ones? Get SLKR, get your arena crystals, and call it a day. There is no way in spending for future GLs again when they underperform to the old ones.
Ye, in term of value Id rather have a R7 ChewPo than SEE, and ChewPo doesnt require a bunch of reliqed f tier characters.
If every new GL is on par power level than the current ones, then just keep SLKR.
Stop playing and come back in 10 years, you will still have the best squad in the game and there will be 10.000 players with 10.000 SLKR squads
That would be true if the current GLs were:
1- going to be the last GLs released
2- going to be the last toons released
At any point down the line they could release a non GL that supports or raises one up just enough to be ahead of the others, or at least a few.
I mean we already see JML giving SLKR trouble.
Why would anyone ever get future GLs when these new ones are worse than the old ones? Get SLKR, get your arena crystals, and call it a day. There is no way in spending for future GLs again when they underperform to the old ones.
So what about JML putting a hurting on SLKR in arena? Not unbeatable, but seems to be putting up more of a fight than Rey. I'm pretty sure JML is new, and not underperforming the old ones.
We also have a time between now and then, other toons will come out, some.might be useful in one or more teams that allow someone to hold better here or there......
If every new GL is on par power level than the current ones, then just keep SLKR.
Stop playing and come back in 10 years, you will still have the best squad in the game and there will be 10.000 players with 10.000 SLKR squads
That would be true if the current GLs were:
1- going to be the last GLs released
2- going to be the last toons released
At any point down the line they could release a non GL that supports or raises one up just enough to be ahead of the others, or at least a few.
I mean we already see JML giving SLKR trouble.
Why would anyone ever get future GLs when these new ones are worse than the old ones? Get SLKR, get your arena crystals, and call it a day. There is no way in spending for future GLs again when they underperform to the old ones.
Besides hypotheticals, people are grabbing the new 2 fine, how do you explain that? Maybe not everyone's concern is the same as yours.
I dont think anyone wants to see the current GLs stay exactly how they are, but we are not the ones in control of that.
This is some great conversation and some really good points.
As I have said if you have concerns post videos/pictures of this in action. Be prepared to discuss many angles and points about what is happening and let's all keep focus on the goal.
If every new GL is on par power level than the current ones, then just keep SLKR.
Stop playing and come back in 10 years, you will still have the best squad in the game and there will be 10.000 players with 10.000 SLKR squads
That would be true if the current GLs were:
1- going to be the last GLs released
2- going to be the last toons released
At any point down the line they could release a non GL that supports or raises one up just enough to be ahead of the others, or at least a few.
I mean we already see JML giving SLKR trouble.
Why would anyone ever get future GLs when these new ones are worse than the old ones? Get SLKR, get your arena crystals, and call it a day. There is no way in spending for future GLs again when they underperform to the old ones.
I've read slkr struggle against jml. Is it not true anymore or was it just on D ?
If every new GL is on par power level than the current ones, then just keep SLKR.
Stop playing and come back in 10 years, you will still have the best squad in the game and there will be 10.000 players with 10.000 SLKR squads
That would be true if the current GLs were:
1- going to be the last GLs released
2- going to be the last toons released
At any point down the line they could release a non GL that supports or raises one up just enough to be ahead of the others, or at least a few.
I mean we already see JML giving SLKR trouble.
Why would anyone ever get future GLs when these new ones are worse than the old ones? Get SLKR, get your arena crystals, and call it a day. There is no way in spending for future GLs again when they underperform to the old ones.
So what about JML putting a hurting on SLKR in arena? Not unbeatable, but seems to be putting up more of a fight than Rey. I'm pretty sure JML is new, and not underperforming the old ones.
We also have a time between now and then, other toons will come out, some.might be useful in one or more teams that allow someone to hold better here or there......
SLKR is far from the end all be all.
Sorry, just to clarify, we should stop farming SEE, go for JML, whom SLKR can definitely beat with help of DRevan or other Siths. I think that Canadafett's post is related SEE too, we don't speak that both GLs are trash, current conversation is related mainly to SEE's frustrating performance. The fact that Jml can be beaten by top siths characters differs from the fact that SEE's current state is not satisfactory for people who spent much resources and get what? Heroic Sith Reid -- no, excellent for arena to hold top positions-no, Sorry but not very good working rock scissor paper theory can hardly justify resources people spend for farming SEE.
I actually hope they bring back power creep. It would be really lame if the next set of GLs was still on par with the then year old SLK and Rey.
This. Power creep rewards those that obtain the newest stuff, whether by paying or by resource management.
Agree. That said, your statement is probably looking at this from a crystal obtainment standpoint (i.e. arena).
Let me remind everyone that CG's stated goal is to remove the core crystal income from arenas and put that revenue stream into (sigh) GAC. If this remains the case, GLs quickly become a necessity because regardless of the relative power levels, the more of them you have, the more advantage you have in GAC.
If every new GL is on par power level than the current ones, then just keep SLKR.
Stop playing and come back in 10 years, you will still have the best squad in the game and there will be 10.000 players with 10.000 SLKR squads
That would be true if the current GLs were:
1- going to be the last GLs released
2- going to be the last toons released
At any point down the line they could release a non GL that supports or raises one up just enough to be ahead of the others, or at least a few.
I mean we already see JML giving SLKR trouble.
Why would anyone ever get future GLs when these new ones are worse than the old ones? Get SLKR, get your arena crystals, and call it a day. There is no way in spending for future GLs again when they underperform to the old ones.
So what about JML putting a hurting on SLKR in arena? Not unbeatable, but seems to be putting up more of a fight than Rey. I'm pretty sure JML is new, and not underperforming the old ones.
We also have a time between now and then, other toons will come out, some.might be useful in one or more teams that allow someone to hold better here or there......
SLKR is far from the end all be all.
Sorry, just to clarify, we should stop farming SEE, go for JML, whom SLKR can definitely beat with help of DRevan or other Siths. I think that Canadafett's post is related SEE too, we don't speak that both GLs are trash, current conversation is related mainly to SEE's frustrating performance. The fact that Jml can be beaten by top siths characters differs from the fact that SEE's current state is not satisfactory for people who spent much resources and get what? Heroic Sith Reid -- no, excellent for arena to hold top positions-no, Sorry but not very good working rock scissor paper theory can hardly justify resources people spend for farming SEE.
His post is about future GLs and he said the current onea are trash, he was talking about both.
I have said multiple times that they should keep an eye on what's going on with SEE, so we agree.
Honestly we are close to a decent setup for multiple teams being viabl(or having use) for arena, now we just need to see how this plays out to bring in that final bit of balance between them.
I actually hope they bring back power creep. It would be really lame if the next set of GLs was still on par with the then year old SLK and Rey.
This. Power creep rewards those that obtain the newest stuff, whether by paying or by resource management.
Agree. That said, your statement is probably looking at this from a crystal obtainment standpoint (i.e. arena).
Let me remind everyone that CG's stated goal is to remove the core crystal income from arenas and put that revenue stream into (sigh) GAC. If this remains the case, GLs quickly become a necessity because regardless of the relative power levels, the more of them you have, the more advantage you have in GAC.
I think they were looking at it, but never came to the conclusion it was a viable option to do so.
Let me remind everyone that CG's stated goal is to remove the core crystal income from arenas and put that revenue stream into (sigh) GAC.
It was mentioned by CG as far back as Carrie, but did they ever come out and say they actually were planning to do it, especially after she left?
I can't remember if they did or not tbh. Hopefully they are backtracking on that stated intention.
A coordinated train of some guy making his first appearance in the top 10 after 5 years (with a newly minted GL) is one of the few exciting things left in the game. Especially when that train takes em from 3 to 25 within minutes of his payout...… That excitement gets killed if no crystals are at stake.
I actually hope they bring back power creep. It would be really lame if the next set of GLs was still on par with the then year old SLK and Rey.
This. Power creep rewards those that obtain the newest stuff, whether by paying or by resource management.
Agree. That said, your statement is probably looking at this from a crystal obtainment standpoint (i.e. arena).
Let me remind everyone that CG's stated goal is to remove the core crystal income from arenas and put that revenue stream into (sigh) GAC. If this remains the case, GLs quickly become a necessity because regardless of the relative power levels, the more of them you have, the more advantage you have in GAC.
I think they were looking at it, but never came to the conclusion it was a viable option to do so.
I'd be half tempted to ask if this is still the future direction in our next Q&A, but I don't want to remind anyone who may actually take action lol.
I actually hope they bring back power creep. It would be really lame if the next set of GLs was still on par with the then year old SLK and Rey.
This. Power creep rewards those that obtain the newest stuff, whether by paying or by resource management.
Agree. That said, your statement is probably looking at this from a crystal obtainment standpoint (i.e. arena).
Let me remind everyone that CG's stated goal is to remove the core crystal income from arenas and put that revenue stream into (sigh) GAC. If this remains the case, GLs quickly become a necessity because regardless of the relative power levels, the more of them you have, the more advantage you have in GAC.
I think they were looking at it, but never came to the conclusion it was a viable option to do so.
I'd be half tempted to ask if this is still the future direction in our next Q&A, but I don't want to remind anyone who may actually take action lol.
I actually hope they bring back power creep. It would be really lame if the next set of GLs was still on par with the then year old SLK and Rey.
This. Power creep rewards those that obtain the newest stuff, whether by paying or by resource management.
Agree. That said, your statement is probably looking at this from a crystal obtainment standpoint (i.e. arena).
Let me remind everyone that CG's stated goal is to remove the core crystal income from arenas and put that revenue stream into (sigh) GAC. If this remains the case, GLs quickly become a necessity because regardless of the relative power levels, the more of them you have, the more advantage you have in GAC.
I think they were looking at it, but never came to the conclusion it was a viable option to do so.
I'd be half tempted to ask if this is still the future direction in our next Q&A, but I don't want to remind anyone who may actually take action lol.
What they aspired to do with these new GLs was to extend the GL pool into an RPS meta of JML > SLKR > SEE > JML, Rey standing aside being able to beat all but also be beaten by all. They probably got this figured out in summer which would explain why they then buffed Kylo. To ensure that majority of people went for Kylo who was going to be countered by JML.
I think that is where things started to go wrong. Kylo after his buffs turned out to be too strong, unstoppable, with his weak points removed. Reys who already had hard time against him had to turn to cheese AI teams to get any reasonable winning percentage.
As of now Kylo remains the one thing limiting the design space because of his massive and unavoidable AOE damage. Any new meta being able to beat him has to have a response to that, and by design any such counter ability will play a big part in any future meta character's kit. For example, take a look at JML and see how pretty much all of his lead and unique both are to counter Kylo: True dmg to counter high def coupled with crit immunity & healing on hit and health/prot recovery coupled with buffs to dampen some of that AOE dmg.
The effect of these new GLs on the meta should remain small because of their many weaknesses, obvious kit flaws and day 1 F2P counters. Kylo can just use Sith Empire and AOE JML to death like he has been doing to Rey so far. There is no need for SEEs because there is no need for JMLs. JMLs have to run JKR lead because of JML mirror issues (the tenacity up from JKR lead to block Ability Block) besides JKR lead is just the better one, meaning the ult never comes into play.
I actually hope they bring back power creep. It would be really lame if the next set of GLs was still on par with the then year old SLK and Rey.
This. Power creep rewards those that obtain the newest stuff, whether by paying or by resource management.
Agree. That said, your statement is probably looking at this from a crystal obtainment standpoint (i.e. arena).
Let me remind everyone that CG's stated goal is to remove the core crystal income from arenas and put that revenue stream into (sigh) GAC. If this remains the case, GLs quickly become a necessity because regardless of the relative power levels, the more of them you have, the more advantage you have in GAC.
I think they were looking at it, but never came to the conclusion it was a viable option to do so.
I'd be half tempted to ask if this is still the future direction in our next Q&A, but I don't want to remind anyone who may actually take action lol.
It either is or it isnt, asking wont change that.
In my experience this isn't always true.
I've had instances where my own development team has communicated stated long term direction to customers, and then abandoned that direction due to other business priorities being more pressing. In at least one case, I know we would not have come back to the particular item had it not been brought back to our attention by a customer inquiry. The inquiry prompted our team to re-discuss and reprioritize the item to ensure it was enacted.
Replies
Once there's enough of a mix in your (my) arena shard, you'll be able to pick your opponents enough to avoid SLKR. I do that now anyway with my arena fights, there's teams that I know I can't beat so I avoid them.
Unfortunately there is just no way to do that. They can never fully predict who will always beat who. They can design and do what testing they can, but the player base will always come up with some edge case or other examples of teams that will change things.
By putting out 4 GLs, and saying they are aiming for them to be of similar power, is saying they are aiming for some sort of "rock paper scissor" like meta.
Although while they're mixing teams, if you're attacking that squad, throw han in there to stun Wat first and a buff dispel to get rid of Luke's taunt from the bastila lead.
By the way, Kylo can kill him in such mixed team, and without Han. Sorry to say.
And I still don't care, I'll never get kylo or rey because I don't want them. They threw that team together to beat a specific palps team, it's the whole point of theory crafting and there'll be many more in the future.
Ok, it's absolutely your own business whom you are going to farm, but i speak on behalf of my friends from guild, and the fact that Papl's state deceived our expectations is true.
This is good in concept. I have Rey and SEE. Rey is great in arena, GAC, tw, and tb. Not so great I’m raids though. The problem is SEE doesn’t excel in any game modes at this time. Maybe they are actually going to release some compelling content, like a new raid with Jedi as the main enemies where SEE guarantees you the best rewards? If that were the case, it may be a reasonable trade off for being bad in every other game mode compared to the other 3 GLs.
Why would anyone ever get future GLs when these new ones are worse than the old ones? Get SLKR, get your arena crystals, and call it a day. There is no way in spending for future GLs again when they underperform to the old ones.
Ye, in term of value Id rather have a R7 ChewPo than SEE, and ChewPo doesnt require a bunch of reliqed f tier characters.
So what about JML putting a hurting on SLKR in arena? Not unbeatable, but seems to be putting up more of a fight than Rey. I'm pretty sure JML is new, and not underperforming the old ones.
We also have a time between now and then, other toons will come out, some.might be useful in one or more teams that allow someone to hold better here or there......
SLKR is far from the end all be all.
They still do.
That was part of the joke, granted I could have constructed it better.
Yeah 6/10 at best.
Harsh but fair.
Besides hypotheticals, people are grabbing the new 2 fine, how do you explain that? Maybe not everyone's concern is the same as yours.
I dont think anyone wants to see the current GLs stay exactly how they are, but we are not the ones in control of that.
This is some great conversation and some really good points.
As I have said if you have concerns post videos/pictures of this in action. Be prepared to discuss many angles and points about what is happening and let's all keep focus on the goal.
I've read slkr struggle against jml. Is it not true anymore or was it just on D ?
Sorry, just to clarify, we should stop farming SEE, go for JML, whom SLKR can definitely beat with help of DRevan or other Siths. I think that Canadafett's post is related SEE too, we don't speak that both GLs are trash, current conversation is related mainly to SEE's frustrating performance. The fact that Jml can be beaten by top siths characters differs from the fact that SEE's current state is not satisfactory for people who spent much resources and get what? Heroic Sith Reid -- no, excellent for arena to hold top positions-no, Sorry but not very good working rock scissor paper theory can hardly justify resources people spend for farming SEE.
Agree. That said, your statement is probably looking at this from a crystal obtainment standpoint (i.e. arena).
Let me remind everyone that CG's stated goal is to remove the core crystal income from arenas and put that revenue stream into (sigh) GAC. If this remains the case, GLs quickly become a necessity because regardless of the relative power levels, the more of them you have, the more advantage you have in GAC.
It was mentioned by CG as far back as Carrie, but did they ever come out and say they actually were planning to do it, especially after she left?
His post is about future GLs and he said the current onea are trash, he was talking about both.
I have said multiple times that they should keep an eye on what's going on with SEE, so we agree.
Honestly we are close to a decent setup for multiple teams being viabl(or having use) for arena, now we just need to see how this plays out to bring in that final bit of balance between them.
I think they were looking at it, but never came to the conclusion it was a viable option to do so.
I can't remember if they did or not tbh. Hopefully they are backtracking on that stated intention.
A coordinated train of some guy making his first appearance in the top 10 after 5 years (with a newly minted GL) is one of the few exciting things left in the game. Especially when that train takes em from 3 to 25 within minutes of his payout...… That excitement gets killed if no crystals are at stake.
I'd be half tempted to ask if this is still the future direction in our next Q&A, but I don't want to remind anyone who may actually take action lol.
It either is or it isnt, asking wont change that.
I think that is where things started to go wrong. Kylo after his buffs turned out to be too strong, unstoppable, with his weak points removed. Reys who already had hard time against him had to turn to cheese AI teams to get any reasonable winning percentage.
As of now Kylo remains the one thing limiting the design space because of his massive and unavoidable AOE damage. Any new meta being able to beat him has to have a response to that, and by design any such counter ability will play a big part in any future meta character's kit. For example, take a look at JML and see how pretty much all of his lead and unique both are to counter Kylo: True dmg to counter high def coupled with crit immunity & healing on hit and health/prot recovery coupled with buffs to dampen some of that AOE dmg.
The effect of these new GLs on the meta should remain small because of their many weaknesses, obvious kit flaws and day 1 F2P counters. Kylo can just use Sith Empire and AOE JML to death like he has been doing to Rey so far. There is no need for SEEs because there is no need for JMLs. JMLs have to run JKR lead because of JML mirror issues (the tenacity up from JKR lead to block Ability Block) besides JKR lead is just the better one, meaning the ult never comes into play.
In my experience this isn't always true.
I've had instances where my own development team has communicated stated long term direction to customers, and then abandoned that direction due to other business priorities being more pressing. In at least one case, I know we would not have come back to the particular item had it not been brought back to our attention by a customer inquiry. The inquiry prompted our team to re-discuss and reprioritize the item to ensure it was enacted.