The Pit Challenge Tier & Relic 8 [MEGA]

Replies

  • StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    This. So much this. Folks like to complain about carbs, guns, and cuffs. But end game players should be able to stay on top of those via challenges, guild store, GET1, and shard shop.

    G12 gear has become my biggest choke point, along with Kyros.

    Same. It's not like I have thousands in stock of any of the old gear blocks. But when I go into a run to relic 3-4 new toons, they easily melt through currencies and with no investment (=crystal farming or buying from shops) before g12+ and kyros. I'd rather keep relicing things than r8ing anything for the foreseeable future to come (until they are hard requirement for something).
  • I lead a guild and Saturday we finished the Challenge Pit Raid for the first time. It was a great achievement. Now today we will launch it again. I am not excited to do this again. To do this level of coordination over and over again is going to be pure burnout. I hope CG is listening to the feedback.
  • TVF
    26682 posts Member
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • I lead a guild and Saturday we finished the Challenge Pit Raid for the first time. It was a great achievement. Now today we will launch it again. I am not excited to do this again. To do this level of coordination over and over again is going to be pure burnout. I hope CG is listening to the feedback.

    So what you’re saying is that IT IS NOT THE DIFFICULTY, but the UNIVERSAL STACKING MECHANICS of the raid.....interesting. I think I heard that before....

    (Caps to make a point so no dev could try and say they misunderstood what we the players want)
  • TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Good for you? He didn't say he couldn't do it. He said he wouldn't. So he's specifically stating he won't because of resource management.

    So what was the point of your post besides bragging?
  • Konju
    373 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    While your point is not necessarily wrong about resource management, I believe the post you were responding to had more nuance than just this aspect. “Not a stat boost commensurate with its cost”...

    Also, off topic, I find your “resource management” comment quite funny coming from the guy with a profile pic lighting a cigar with $100 bill. I just got a chuckle is all.
  • TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Would love to see your roster and what you’ve prioritized
  • TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    As if you are f2p xD
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Would love to see your roster and what you’ve prioritized

    https://swgoh.gg/p/279847465/

    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    As if you are f2p xD

    I don't have any trouble believing he's f2p.
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Would love to see your roster and what you’ve prioritized

    https://swgoh.gg/p/279847465/

    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    As if you are f2p xD

    I don't have any trouble believing he's f2p.

    Except he said he's not numerous times. Not that he can't possibly be.
  • MaruMaru wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Would love to see your roster and what you’ve prioritized

    https://swgoh.gg/p/279847465/

    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    As if you are f2p xD

    I don't have any trouble believing he's f2p.

    Except he said he's not numerous times. Not that he can't possibly be.

    Well, I did not know that XD
  • TVF
    26682 posts Member
    StarSon wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    Good for you? He didn't say he couldn't do it. He said he wouldn't. So he's specifically stating he won't because of resource management.

    So what was the point of your post besides bragging?

    His point was to brag and to troll. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Nice insults, but wrong.

    My point is that with smart choices you wouldn't have to factor that piece into your decision making at all.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF
    26682 posts Member
    Konju wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Mixelplux wrote: »
    And the elephant in the room really is that the raid reward r8 pieces are worthless after you have 1-2 r8s done. The absurdly high cost to r8 a toon will mean we will gain more r8 mats than we could ever use quite quickly. In fact, that reward is already obsolete for a dozen or so members in my guild. So I will just enjoy my 10 MK3 Sienar Holo projectors and some challengerewards items I guess..... This raid and rewards as well as r8 structure is so ill conceived it's laughable.

    Exactly this. I have enough to r8 someone, but why should I? Not only does it not provide a stat boost commensurate with its cost, but the cost of the other new salvage is ... I'm not even sure how to describe it, it's so bad. 184 of high demand left side pieces is quite possibly never going to happen.

    I just checked and I have enough "high demand pieces" to do all the SEE requirements plus SEE himself plus three R8, and working on more.

    I already have the other three GLs.

    Resource management.

    While your point is not necessarily wrong about resource management, I believe the post you were responding to had more nuance than just this aspect. “Not a stat boost commensurate with its cost”...

    Also, off topic, I find your “resource management” comment quite funny coming from the guy with a profile pic lighting a cigar with $100 bill. I just got a chuckle is all.

    I was only responding to the high demand claim.

    Glad you chuckled at the avatar
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno
    27450 posts Moderator
    lets stay on topic please.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    lets stay on topic please.

    Would be nice if the devs would respond to this topic but...you know...back to the good ol’ radio silence.
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    lets stay on topic please.

    Would be nice if the devs would respond to this topic but...you know...back to the good ol’ radio silence.

    No money in it...
  • Honestly, I like the idea of injecting new ways to play and the coordination can be fun. However, the global threshold mechanic (or however you describe it) is a major miss and requires too much coordination to manage. (I will skip over rewards, for now...)
    My guild has beat it 3 times now. The first win was a major/milestone and felt good. However, we are international guild and it is a mess trying to coordinate damage. Nobody is really looking forward to our next attempt, which is a shame with new content.
    Players have lives and our time zones make it even more crazy. We actually lost a couple members and a fellow officer because of the stress of coordination. Life > Game
  • And is it worth repeating a million times that the community thought this new raid was ****?
    Is the community going to keep saying that the TW / GAC Pairing system is completely broken, practically defining whether you win or lose a battle?
    Is it worth mentioning that the launch of the legends was a fiasco?

    Do they know all these opinions, and do you know what changes? Nothing.
    Let us pray that the current producer will find an even better job and resign from capital games.
  • camper288 wrote: »
    And is it worth repeating a million times that the community thought this new raid was ****?
    Is the community going to keep saying that the TW / GAC Pairing system is completely broken, practically defining whether you win or lose a battle?
    Is it worth mentioning that the launch of the legends was a fiasco?

    Do they know all these opinions, and do you know what changes? Nothing.
    Let us pray that the current producer will find an even better job and resign from capital games.

    Doubtful. Gets paid to do absolutely nothing. He sure as heck doesn’t communicate with the community at all. Gotta love someone who thinks he’s too good to address his player base/ paying customers even once. #FireMarkBringBackCarrie
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    @MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way @Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering
  • camper288 wrote: »
    Is the community going to keep saying that the TW / GAC Pairing system is completely broken, practically defining whether you win or lose a battle?
    Well this just might be the reason then. It's hard to take relevant feedback (Subpar Pit rewards, coordination) seriously when GAC matchmaking being broken is parroted in an endless loop, when it's not even true.
  • Kyno
    27450 posts Moderator
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.
  • Iy4oy4s
    2063 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    How is that not flat?
  • Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    How is that not flat?

    See, it's not flat. This is how graphs are done, no units needed.

    joauhrb8b63n.png
  • If he can’t see that is flatter than the garbage they are trying to shove down our throats as flattened then he is just blind. That is clearly a flatter distribution. Guess I’ll hear the world is flat from CG.
  • Kyno
    27450 posts Moderator
    Iy4oy4s wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    How is that not flat?

    Do you mean flatter, because that is flatter than any of the rewards that we see in our raids. 100%.

    But flat would mean that 1 and 12 in this case get the same thing. Unless I'm mistaken, how do you define flat in this case?
  • Kyno
    27450 posts Moderator
    IronCross wrote: »
    ... That is clearly a flatter distribution. ...

    This is 1000% correct. It is also 100% not what was said.
  • TVF
    26682 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    IronCross wrote: »
    ... That is clearly a flatter distribution. ...

    This is 1000% correct. It is also 100% not what was said.

    What accounts for the 900% difference though?
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    How are more linear and flatter the same thing?

    I didn't say they are the same thing, a flatter distribution has less deviation from the centerline or common plane when both things being compared are limited to the same scale (in our case 1-50), meaning a more even distribution across the scale vs say having a bump in the top 10.

    Except you just defined "linear" distribution, not "flat" (or "flatter"). "Flat" in regard to wages, prices, etc. is "the same in all cases, not varying with changed conditions or in particular cases." It's clear that CG once again simply used a vague word and their own definition. They said "flatter" but meant "more linear".

    flatter is statistical term used to mean a more even distribution. so it isn't vague or misleading, as it is the correct usage there.

    they didn't say flat, and if they had that would be wrong, as that would define it to the axis.

    flatter requires a comparison, and is therefore linked to another thing, e.g. - prizing structure for the sith raid

    Dude, come on. These are the exact words CG used in their Pit announcement.

    Since the Challenge Tier is designed to require cooperation, we have opted for a flatter prizing structure to reduce some of the friction in-guild while still acknowledging degrees of participation and success.

    You're telling us that they meant a more linear distribution rather than more equitable prizes? If so, and I think that's a colossal "if", that's just an absurdly poor choice of words. In fact, I find this so beyond unbelievable, that unless a CG official comes out and says it, I'll assume you are doing some top notch lawyer gymnastics to make what they said true.

    so you disagree with a "exponential" distribution outpacing a linear one? you believe the reward structure for the Sith raid is more equitable for the whole guild, over the CPit?

    I believe a more linear distribution (within the context of the rewards we see) is more equitable for everyone, isn't it?

    I am not saying I wouldn't' want it to be better, but to say they didn't deliver on a flatter reward structure than the previous example we have, doesn't seem to be accurate. Everyone needs something to call them out on, but in this case trying to say they are not flat , while true, isn't what they said.

    I provided a chart a few pages back demonstrating that the equity of the rewards is not dependent on the classification of the shape (linear, cubic, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, sinusoidal, whatever). The equity of the rewards is what everyone is up in arms over.

    I will reword, if thats ok:

    do you feel that Sith raid rewards are more fairly distributed to the guild over the Cpit rewards?

    I think this is a much better question. I am going to add a couple qualifiers to your question:

    Do I feel that Sith raid rewards (shards, gear, guild currency, et) when it released were more/less fairly distributed than Cpit today (GET, GET2, Aeros, gear)?

    I feel like the Sith raid rewards were more fair, but I think both were/are terrible. This goes beyond the shape of the rewards distribution. Because of the coordination required for Cpit, we have guys that are forced to run certain teams in phases that yield less damage because P4 damage is more valuable than P1-3 damage. We have guys missing big damage runs because their schedule doesn't align with the majority of the guild's. We have a couple runs get lost due to app crashes while waiting to submit. We don't have a good feel for the gear distribution for Cpit yet (though it seems HIGHLY variable).

    I hate the stacking mechanic, but it definitely makes the Cpit a team effort. As such, the rewards should be reflective of that. The 20 guys that showed up on time to submit their 2-3% P4 runs are just as valuable as the other 20 guys that showed up to do an easier 5% P2/3 run. Due to IRL schedules, not everyone can choose where they contribute.

    TW/TB gives the same rewards to everyone because trying to assign a metric to one's contribution creates friction. The guild officers can do that themselves and replace slackers with those hungry to contribute. We don't need CG doing it for us. But more to the point, everyone in the guild celebrates every TW win and new TB star because we achieved it together and share in the spoils together.

    Thank you for the clarification, I would disagree with the fairness of the distribution due to the top 10 limitation on the Sith raid, but agree with the overall assessment from the perspective of rewards when incorporating all the external factors.

    I have always wanted a different raid style and reward distribution, this is especially evident at the start of a raid when there is so much more coordination and group effort. This raid definitely has more elements to it than others, from the outside at this point.

    MaruMaru this is what we were talking about, which is why this question was in response to the conversation we were having.

    ga9g2jr8mivp.png

    By the way Kyno THIS is what a flat reward structure looks like. In case you were wondering

    Um... no it's not, but thanks.

    Oh I’d love to hear this one. Can you explain to me how that’s not a flat reward structure?
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