The Pit Challenge Tier & Relic 8 [MEGA]

Replies

  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    IronCross wrote: »
    Cstone812 wrote: »
    Still waiting for some kind of response. Is this ever getting changed? I really don’t understand the logic behind this mechanic. My guild that’s been around since launch is seriously really frustrated over this. We have members from all over the world we all can’t be on at the same time to do this. Very frustrating.

    Yep, it is totally ridiculous they have taken this long to say nothing. They are completely ignorant of their player base.

    They have commented, it was too corporate and therefore dismissed.

    Unfortunately them discussing things doesnt always mean they can say anything until they have a more firm answer or idea of an answer.

    They commented on the difficulty, not the coordination required and specifically the 20% threshold mechanic. There's a huge difference, as many people have continued to note throughout the entire thread just to continue to be ignored.

    I was commenting on being completely ignorant of the community, which by acknowledging the community, is not accurate.

    Also there is this comment also:
    I understand tagging me in your posts on this thread, but trust I'm keeping an eye on it already. I will do my part to report community sentiment to the devs.

    Which if those are the community sentiment, they are being brought up by him, and me, but I dont count so dont worry about that.

    Not ignored, but we dont need to argue about that. They may not be able to comment on discussions going on until they have anything more firm to go on.

    This was said before the corporate response. There’s nothing they need to discuss. The mechanic is universally hated and a massive misstep on their part. Simply make the mechanic per individual run. Boom, problem solved

    That sounds good, but also sounds like it would change the difficulty of the raid, which I believe they are looking for and are happy with. But we dont know what they are considering around this whole situation.

    What? It prevents solos. Even SLKR in the perfect composition can’t get past around 50% in a single phase. Other than SLKR and Rey+Jawas I don’t know of a single composition that can top 25%. Why is such a bad thing that the difficulty as is, paired with a stacking mechanic that goes off every 20% (heck even change it to 10% for it based on each run) prevents exactly what they wanted to; solos. Even if someone is able to somehow get a full phase done, carry the stacks to the next phase. Or if the mechanic can’t do that, SLKR would be on his own still! He’s not taking down rancor in P2 alone. Or in p4. Not to mention the pool of characters available is small considering the R5 gear gate. Did we forget that too??

    Coordination does not correspond with difficulty. I’m sorry but there’s no defending forcing a guild that’s international to kick members because of their time zone. This isn’t like past raids where it was the difficulty that shuffled guilds up. It’s pure and basic bad mechanics. My guild is 285 mil GP and we have the rosters to win. However we have dozens of members scattered to different time zones and we refuse to force them to get up in the middle of the night to beat a raid on a mobile game, or to stop their real life dinners or business meetings. Come on now Kyno, this mechanic is trash and CG’s refusal to address it is even worse.

    CG_Doja_Fett how far up the tree has this gotten?

    I have no clue how you think stacking every 10% would do any better??? You still need more then just yourself doing damage to complete a phase. Otherwise you are stuck at some point. Needling a couple members to hold damage then drop it all at one would still be required.
    The raid is designed this way and can only be beaten this way. Anything else would require more higher relic characters for just a true damage non solo raid. Watch what you wish for. This would have something like — 4 teams at relic 5-7 per phase. Then this would purely be a kraken raid.
    Then people would still hate on this raid.
    Like I said before, once people have more r8 characters the raid falls faster and with less and less members required.
    We are in the 30 min mark ourselves.

    I think the fact that their "coordination" mechanic can be so easily circumvented (your guild clearing it in 30 minutes; my 285M GP guild clearing it every time since our first try) is proof that they kind of failed on this raid.

    If I were trying to make it challenging, prevent solos, and require multiple participants per phase while not doing any serious coding work (the horror); I would do something along the following:
    - double health pool
    - halve the % damage done by % damage effects
    - change the stat stacking mechanic to be based on an individual

    For the last bullet point, you could stack every 5-10% per individual run. Heck, you could take a page out of the Reek playbook and just boost the speed/offense every time he is damaged. Lots of options they could have taken that would have required less work (the CG way) for a better result.

    Again, not saying they should not address things, just pointing out that lowering difficulty is not necessarily a goal they have

    Kyno, do you realize that quotes like this are what make people feel like the team isn't listening? NOBODY IS ASKING FOR THE RAID TO BE EASIER. The post you quoted literally just proposed making the raid HARDER in exchange for it not being so frustrating and requiring such an extreme amount of coordination.

    But if a suggestion has an element that does make it easier or more doable for a larger cross section of the player base, you do understand that may not be a goal they want, right?

    You are doubling down on your statement it appears, which just shows that you don't seem to understand. I know from past experience that continuing to try to explain this is a waste of my time.

    I would ask you to try, but that's ok. You can assume I dont understand, but it seems you are just not understanding what I was pointing out.

    May I ask do you agree with this:

    They should make changes that effect the coordination issue, even if they expand the % of the player base who can complete or the ease of which a guild can complete this raid? (No I do not mean ease in any way connected to the difficulty of outside elements like coordination and communication)

    My entire point (my only point) is that nobody is asking for the bold. We are literally making suggestions so that the raid can be fixed without the bold being true. I don't know how to be any clearer about this.

    Ok so you do not agree with that statement.

    Again, all I was pointing out, was that the suggestion I quoted was doing that.

    I get what is being asked, but there are points being made around the certain assumptions, i.e. - thenonly purpose for the stacking mechanic is to stop GLs, or to prevent solos. When you focus on that and try to make changes, you reduce difficulty other places that allows for a broader range toons to be used, or a larger number of attempts to be made, or other factors that do in fact reach into that bold statement.

    That is literally all I was pointing to in that reply.
  • The problem with your response to the first point:

    Guilds on the borderline of who you want to clear the raid.


    Let's say Guild A and B have the exact same guild stats, and have donated the exact same $$ to CG.

    Guild A is more centralized in the US.

    Guild B is spread out around the world.

    Previously both of these guilds shared the exact same success in all game modes.

    Except now guild A can muster 40 people at the same time clear P4.

    Guild B is limited to only 30 max at various times, and don't have enough to down P4 in one go.

    Two exact same guilds, both equal participation in all guild events, but one can beat the raid and the other can't.

    Is this the direction CG would like to take in the future? If so let me know so I can go ahead and disband my guild(who can easily beat rancor) as we'll just be forever behind in future CG content releases. I guess I could just kick the Aussies, the alaksan, and some of the eastern EU guys instead of disbanding.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    StarSon wrote: »
    Just so we're clear here, the below is what every guild does to complete this raid:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and do not post any damage until we know we have enough damage

    And what Kyno says we can do to make it easier:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and just go ahead and post your damage some predetermined number of minutes later

    2 - it doesnt need to be an hour, runs are actually fairly short.
    3- the post time is less defined and doesnt require communication. And since you can develop to a point of having a more known quantity, airplane mode isnt required.

    You asked how to do it without airplane mode.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Bear654687 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    IronCross wrote: »
    Cstone812 wrote: »
    Still waiting for some kind of response. Is this ever getting changed? I really don’t understand the logic behind this mechanic. My guild that’s been around since launch is seriously really frustrated over this. We have members from all over the world we all can’t be on at the same time to do this. Very frustrating.

    Yep, it is totally ridiculous they have taken this long to say nothing. They are completely ignorant of their player base.

    They have commented, it was too corporate and therefore dismissed.

    Unfortunately them discussing things doesnt always mean they can say anything until they have a more firm answer or idea of an answer.

    They commented on the difficulty, not the coordination required and specifically the 20% threshold mechanic. There's a huge difference, as many people have continued to note throughout the entire thread just to continue to be ignored.

    I was commenting on being completely ignorant of the community, which by acknowledging the community, is not accurate.

    Also there is this comment also:
    I understand tagging me in your posts on this thread, but trust I'm keeping an eye on it already. I will do my part to report community sentiment to the devs.

    Which if those are the community sentiment, they are being brought up by him, and me, but I dont count so dont worry about that.

    Not ignored, but we dont need to argue about that. They may not be able to comment on discussions going on until they have anything more firm to go on.

    This was said before the corporate response. There’s nothing they need to discuss. The mechanic is universally hated and a massive misstep on their part. Simply make the mechanic per individual run. Boom, problem solved

    That sounds good, but also sounds like it would change the difficulty of the raid, which I believe they are looking for and are happy with. But we dont know what they are considering around this whole situation.

    What? It prevents solos. Even SLKR in the perfect composition can’t get past around 50% in a single phase. Other than SLKR and Rey+Jawas I don’t know of a single composition that can top 25%. Why is such a bad thing that the difficulty as is, paired with a stacking mechanic that goes off every 20% (heck even change it to 10% for it based on each run) prevents exactly what they wanted to; solos. Even if someone is able to somehow get a full phase done, carry the stacks to the next phase. Or if the mechanic can’t do that, SLKR would be on his own still! He’s not taking down rancor in P2 alone. Or in p4. Not to mention the pool of characters available is small considering the R5 gear gate. Did we forget that too??

    Coordination does not correspond with difficulty. I’m sorry but there’s no defending forcing a guild that’s international to kick members because of their time zone. This isn’t like past raids where it was the difficulty that shuffled guilds up. It’s pure and basic bad mechanics. My guild is 285 mil GP and we have the rosters to win. However we have dozens of members scattered to different time zones and we refuse to force them to get up in the middle of the night to beat a raid on a mobile game, or to stop their real life dinners or business meetings. Come on now Kyno, this mechanic is trash and CG’s refusal to address it is even worse.

    @CG_Doja_Fett how far up the tree has this gotten?

    I have no clue how you think stacking every 10% would do any better??? You still need more then just yourself doing damage to complete a phase. Otherwise you are stuck at some point. Needling a couple members to hold damage then drop it all at one would still be required.
    The raid is designed this way and can only be beaten this way. Anything else would require more higher relic characters for just a true damage non solo raid. Watch what you wish for. This would have something like — 4 teams at relic 5-7 per phase. Then this would purely be a kraken raid.
    Then people would still hate on this raid.
    Like I said before, once people have more r8 characters the raid falls faster and with less and less members required.
    We are in the 30 min mark ourselves.

    I think the fact that their "coordination" mechanic can be so easily circumvented (your guild clearing it in 30 minutes; my 285M GP guild clearing it every time since our first try) is proof that they kind of failed on this raid.

    If I were trying to make it challenging, prevent solos, and require multiple participants per phase while not doing any serious coding work (the horror); I would do something along the following:
    - double health pool
    - halve the % damage done by % damage effects
    - change the stat stacking mechanic to be based on an individual

    For the last bullet point, you could stack every 5-10% per individual run. Heck, you could take a page out of the Reek playbook and just boost the speed/offense every time he is damaged. Lots of options they could have taken that would have required less work (the CG way) for a better result.

    Again, not saying they should not address things, just pointing out that lowering difficulty is not necessarily a goal they have

    Kyno, do you realize that quotes like this are what make people feel like the team isn't listening? NOBODY IS ASKING FOR THE RAID TO BE EASIER. The post you quoted literally just proposed making the raid HARDER in exchange for it not being so frustrating and requiring such an extreme amount of coordination.

    But if a suggestion has an element that does make it easier or more doable for a larger cross section of the player base, you do understand that may not be a goal they want, right?

    You are doubling down on your statement it appears, which just shows that you don't seem to understand. I know from past experience that continuing to try to explain this is a waste of my time.

    I would ask you to try, but that's ok. You can assume I dont understand, but it seems you are just not understanding what I was pointing out.

    May I ask do you agree with this:

    They should make changes that effect the coordination issue, even if they expand the % of the player base who can complete or the ease of which a guild can complete this raid? (No I do not mean ease in any way connected to the difficulty of outside elements like coordination and communication)

    Literally we're asking you to make it harder. Not easier.

    And all I pointed to was a comment that seemed to make it easier, and say, this may not be a goal because it makes it easier.

    So we all agree, but because I didnt say it was good idea, I was "wrong".

    I agree with making it harder or doing whatever it needs to make to have this be a more enjoyable player experience.

    But if a "simple suggestion that fixes everything" has an element that seems to make it easier that may get pointed out by someone. Sorry that person was me.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Bear654687 wrote: »
    The problem with your response to the first point:

    Guilds on the borderline of who you want to clear the raid.


    Let's say Guild A and B have the exact same guild stats, and have donated the exact same $$ to CG.

    Guild A is more centralized in the US.

    Guild B is spread out around the world.

    Previously both of these guilds shared the exact same success in all game modes.

    Except now guild A can muster 40 people at the same time clear P4.

    Guild B is limited to only 30 max at various times, and don't have enough to down P4 in one go.

    Two exact same guilds, both equal participation in all guild events, but one can beat the raid and the other can't.

    Is this the direction CG would like to take in the future? If so let me know so I can go ahead and disband my guild(who can easily beat rancor) as we'll just be forever behind in future CG content releases. I guess I could just kick the Aussies, the alaksan, and some of the eastern EU guys instead of disbanding.

    When did I say this shouldn't be addressed?

    Sorry if I did go under the assumption of a guild who was already completing it, when I was asked to show how to do it without airplane mode. I did assume that.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Bear654687 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    IronCross wrote: »
    Cstone812 wrote: »
    Still waiting for some kind of response. Is this ever getting changed? I really don’t understand the logic behind this mechanic. My guild that’s been around since launch is seriously really frustrated over this. We have members from all over the world we all can’t be on at the same time to do this. Very frustrating.

    Yep, it is totally ridiculous they have taken this long to say nothing. They are completely ignorant of their player base.

    They have commented, it was too corporate and therefore dismissed.

    Unfortunately them discussing things doesnt always mean they can say anything until they have a more firm answer or idea of an answer.

    They commented on the difficulty, not the coordination required and specifically the 20% threshold mechanic. There's a huge difference, as many people have continued to note throughout the entire thread just to continue to be ignored.

    I was commenting on being completely ignorant of the community, which by acknowledging the community, is not accurate.

    Also there is this comment also:
    I understand tagging me in your posts on this thread, but trust I'm keeping an eye on it already. I will do my part to report community sentiment to the devs.

    Which if those are the community sentiment, they are being brought up by him, and me, but I dont count so dont worry about that.

    Not ignored, but we dont need to argue about that. They may not be able to comment on discussions going on until they have anything more firm to go on.

    This was said before the corporate response. There’s nothing they need to discuss. The mechanic is universally hated and a massive misstep on their part. Simply make the mechanic per individual run. Boom, problem solved

    That sounds good, but also sounds like it would change the difficulty of the raid, which I believe they are looking for and are happy with. But we dont know what they are considering around this whole situation.

    What? It prevents solos. Even SLKR in the perfect composition can’t get past around 50% in a single phase. Other than SLKR and Rey+Jawas I don’t know of a single composition that can top 25%. Why is such a bad thing that the difficulty as is, paired with a stacking mechanic that goes off every 20% (heck even change it to 10% for it based on each run) prevents exactly what they wanted to; solos. Even if someone is able to somehow get a full phase done, carry the stacks to the next phase. Or if the mechanic can’t do that, SLKR would be on his own still! He’s not taking down rancor in P2 alone. Or in p4. Not to mention the pool of characters available is small considering the R5 gear gate. Did we forget that too??

    Coordination does not correspond with difficulty. I’m sorry but there’s no defending forcing a guild that’s international to kick members because of their time zone. This isn’t like past raids where it was the difficulty that shuffled guilds up. It’s pure and basic bad mechanics. My guild is 285 mil GP and we have the rosters to win. However we have dozens of members scattered to different time zones and we refuse to force them to get up in the middle of the night to beat a raid on a mobile game, or to stop their real life dinners or business meetings. Come on now Kyno, this mechanic is trash and CG’s refusal to address it is even worse.

    @CG_Doja_Fett how far up the tree has this gotten?

    I have no clue how you think stacking every 10% would do any better??? You still need more then just yourself doing damage to complete a phase. Otherwise you are stuck at some point. Needling a couple members to hold damage then drop it all at one would still be required.
    The raid is designed this way and can only be beaten this way. Anything else would require more higher relic characters for just a true damage non solo raid. Watch what you wish for. This would have something like — 4 teams at relic 5-7 per phase. Then this would purely be a kraken raid.
    Then people would still hate on this raid.
    Like I said before, once people have more r8 characters the raid falls faster and with less and less members required.
    We are in the 30 min mark ourselves.

    I think the fact that their "coordination" mechanic can be so easily circumvented (your guild clearing it in 30 minutes; my 285M GP guild clearing it every time since our first try) is proof that they kind of failed on this raid.

    If I were trying to make it challenging, prevent solos, and require multiple participants per phase while not doing any serious coding work (the horror); I would do something along the following:
    - double health pool
    - halve the % damage done by % damage effects
    - change the stat stacking mechanic to be based on an individual

    For the last bullet point, you could stack every 5-10% per individual run. Heck, you could take a page out of the Reek playbook and just boost the speed/offense every time he is damaged. Lots of options they could have taken that would have required less work (the CG way) for a better result.

    Again, not saying they should not address things, just pointing out that lowering difficulty is not necessarily a goal they have

    Kyno, do you realize that quotes like this are what make people feel like the team isn't listening? NOBODY IS ASKING FOR THE RAID TO BE EASIER. The post you quoted literally just proposed making the raid HARDER in exchange for it not being so frustrating and requiring such an extreme amount of coordination.

    But if a suggestion has an element that does make it easier or more doable for a larger cross section of the player base, you do understand that may not be a goal they want, right?

    You are doubling down on your statement it appears, which just shows that you don't seem to understand. I know from past experience that continuing to try to explain this is a waste of my time.

    I would ask you to try, but that's ok. You can assume I dont understand, but it seems you are just not understanding what I was pointing out.

    May I ask do you agree with this:

    They should make changes that effect the coordination issue, even if they expand the % of the player base who can complete or the ease of which a guild can complete this raid? (No I do not mean ease in any way connected to the difficulty of outside elements like coordination and communication)

    Literally we're asking you to make it harder. Not easier.

    And all I pointed to was a comment that seemed to make it easier, and say, this may not be a goal because it makes it easier.

    So we all agree, but because I didnt say it was good idea, I was "wrong".

    I agree with making it harder or doing whatever it needs to make to have this be a more enjoyable player experience.

    But if a "simple suggestion that fixes everything" has an element that seems to make it easier that may get pointed out by someone. Sorry that person was me.

    That comment was mine. And that is NOT what I asked for. I offered 3 suggested changes. 2 would make the raid harder. The 3rd would make it "easier" by virtue of reducing the simultaneous posting nonsense. But depending on how the 3rd suggestions were implemented, it could also make it harder.

    Please stop putting assumptions/words in my post that weren't there.
  • StarSon
    7409 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Just so we're clear here, the below is what every guild does to complete this raid:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and do not post any damage until we know we have enough damage

    And what Kyno says we can do to make it easier:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and just go ahead and post your damage some predetermined number of minutes later

    2 - it doesnt need to be an hour, runs are actually fairly short.
    Sure, but there are 4 phases, and if you're prescribing times in this manner you have to give 10-15 minutes so enough people can start runs before someone screws it up. And also p4 is much more involved.
    3- the post time is less defined and doesnt require communication. And since you can develop to a point of
    having a more known quantity, airplane mode isnt required.
    Except it does require communication. And since you're doing them so quickly, you tell people the phase starts at noon and you post at 12:05, you're really going to wish there had been some communication.
    You asked how to do it without airplane mode.

    You're right, I did ask that. And you answered with "do it the same way just don't use airplane mode."

    The other 3 raids didn't have this limitation at all. There was no need to say "if we can't get 25 of you to be on and fully engaged during this very specific window of time, we can't beat this raid." AAT and STR just needed 2% per phase per member, and you had several hours to get that accomplished, as would be expected for a non-real time mobile game like this one.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Not a single sentence in there saying anything about the thing we're complaining about.

    Lol
    requiring very close guild coordination.


    Oh, sorry, didn't know we were extrapolating "very close guild coordination" to mean "get two devices, keep one in airplane mode almost in perpetuity for the entirety of the raid and pray that no one else in the guild posts when they shouldn't, thus ruining the entire week for 49 other people."

    That is not the only way to do it, just FYI. You can also develop and plan for the guild to get past any praying or required airplane mode.

    Not to say concerns shouldn't be addressed, just pointing out this is not the only way to operate, if you push to develop into a different strategy. But yes coordination is still required. I agree that even the ideal scenarios require "too much", and developing up to the point to require less seems like a long road.

    What is the way to plan around a couple people accidentally posting and taking a phase below 60%?

    Develop a team that can do X% damage (give or take), have Y number of people with that team enter at the same time, (plus a few extra to make comfortable 100%+).

    Then set up thia schedule:
    Enter raid at A time, wait B number of minutes before taking action, or putting your team in danger of losing. Post at C time. No airplane mode required, and you can communicate that everyone is in before taking any action,and players can get back in or wait to enter if they have phone issues (I know some phones dont cooperate with app switching) That even gives you a little room for players to edge down the health with other teams and get back in for a second run, we do this in P2, to pretty good effect(just the edging part).

    This may seem similar to what players do not, but once everyone is in, no need to wait to post, the wait to post is just to make sure everyone gets in and this could lead to a phase being done in short bursts.

    Yes this idealized, but its sound and development helps make it easier and smoother, and also require less players to make it work.

    It's similar to what players do because it's basically exactly what they do.

    Going in at a pre-determined time, and waiting for a pre-determined number of minutes to do anything is exactly what everyone does. Sure, some people know enough about what's happening to not use airplane mode, but you still have to be in that run for however many minutes and do it multiple times for each phase. And phase 4 isn't nearly as straightforward.

    Sorry, your "solution" isn't really a "solution" when it's "what we already do."

    What I proposed (with development) could make a run per phase work in 10-15 minutes with no airplane mode. Which seems to be better than the hour you propose and doesnt require airplane mode, which was what you asked. I never said this was the way to do it or that it solves the problems we are discussing, you asked how to do it without airplane mode. Plan and coordinate, not coordinate and report damage, simple change, but it accomplishes the goal, and should shorten the time, and reduce the ability for someone else to ruin it for 49 others.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Bear654687 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    IronCross wrote: »
    Cstone812 wrote: »
    Still waiting for some kind of response. Is this ever getting changed? I really don’t understand the logic behind this mechanic. My guild that’s been around since launch is seriously really frustrated over this. We have members from all over the world we all can’t be on at the same time to do this. Very frustrating.

    Yep, it is totally ridiculous they have taken this long to say nothing. They are completely ignorant of their player base.

    They have commented, it was too corporate and therefore dismissed.

    Unfortunately them discussing things doesnt always mean they can say anything until they have a more firm answer or idea of an answer.

    They commented on the difficulty, not the coordination required and specifically the 20% threshold mechanic. There's a huge difference, as many people have continued to note throughout the entire thread just to continue to be ignored.

    I was commenting on being completely ignorant of the community, which by acknowledging the community, is not accurate.

    Also there is this comment also:
    I understand tagging me in your posts on this thread, but trust I'm keeping an eye on it already. I will do my part to report community sentiment to the devs.

    Which if those are the community sentiment, they are being brought up by him, and me, but I dont count so dont worry about that.

    Not ignored, but we dont need to argue about that. They may not be able to comment on discussions going on until they have anything more firm to go on.

    This was said before the corporate response. There’s nothing they need to discuss. The mechanic is universally hated and a massive misstep on their part. Simply make the mechanic per individual run. Boom, problem solved

    That sounds good, but also sounds like it would change the difficulty of the raid, which I believe they are looking for and are happy with. But we dont know what they are considering around this whole situation.

    What? It prevents solos. Even SLKR in the perfect composition can’t get past around 50% in a single phase. Other than SLKR and Rey+Jawas I don’t know of a single composition that can top 25%. Why is such a bad thing that the difficulty as is, paired with a stacking mechanic that goes off every 20% (heck even change it to 10% for it based on each run) prevents exactly what they wanted to; solos. Even if someone is able to somehow get a full phase done, carry the stacks to the next phase. Or if the mechanic can’t do that, SLKR would be on his own still! He’s not taking down rancor in P2 alone. Or in p4. Not to mention the pool of characters available is small considering the R5 gear gate. Did we forget that too??

    Coordination does not correspond with difficulty. I’m sorry but there’s no defending forcing a guild that’s international to kick members because of their time zone. This isn’t like past raids where it was the difficulty that shuffled guilds up. It’s pure and basic bad mechanics. My guild is 285 mil GP and we have the rosters to win. However we have dozens of members scattered to different time zones and we refuse to force them to get up in the middle of the night to beat a raid on a mobile game, or to stop their real life dinners or business meetings. Come on now Kyno, this mechanic is trash and CG’s refusal to address it is even worse.

    @CG_Doja_Fett how far up the tree has this gotten?

    I have no clue how you think stacking every 10% would do any better??? You still need more then just yourself doing damage to complete a phase. Otherwise you are stuck at some point. Needling a couple members to hold damage then drop it all at one would still be required.
    The raid is designed this way and can only be beaten this way. Anything else would require more higher relic characters for just a true damage non solo raid. Watch what you wish for. This would have something like — 4 teams at relic 5-7 per phase. Then this would purely be a kraken raid.
    Then people would still hate on this raid.
    Like I said before, once people have more r8 characters the raid falls faster and with less and less members required.
    We are in the 30 min mark ourselves.

    I think the fact that their "coordination" mechanic can be so easily circumvented (your guild clearing it in 30 minutes; my 285M GP guild clearing it every time since our first try) is proof that they kind of failed on this raid.

    If I were trying to make it challenging, prevent solos, and require multiple participants per phase while not doing any serious coding work (the horror); I would do something along the following:
    - double health pool
    - halve the % damage done by % damage effects
    - change the stat stacking mechanic to be based on an individual

    For the last bullet point, you could stack every 5-10% per individual run. Heck, you could take a page out of the Reek playbook and just boost the speed/offense every time he is damaged. Lots of options they could have taken that would have required less work (the CG way) for a better result.

    Again, not saying they should not address things, just pointing out that lowering difficulty is not necessarily a goal they have

    Kyno, do you realize that quotes like this are what make people feel like the team isn't listening? NOBODY IS ASKING FOR THE RAID TO BE EASIER. The post you quoted literally just proposed making the raid HARDER in exchange for it not being so frustrating and requiring such an extreme amount of coordination.

    But if a suggestion has an element that does make it easier or more doable for a larger cross section of the player base, you do understand that may not be a goal they want, right?

    You are doubling down on your statement it appears, which just shows that you don't seem to understand. I know from past experience that continuing to try to explain this is a waste of my time.

    I would ask you to try, but that's ok. You can assume I dont understand, but it seems you are just not understanding what I was pointing out.

    May I ask do you agree with this:

    They should make changes that effect the coordination issue, even if they expand the % of the player base who can complete or the ease of which a guild can complete this raid? (No I do not mean ease in any way connected to the difficulty of outside elements like coordination and communication)

    Literally we're asking you to make it harder. Not easier.

    And all I pointed to was a comment that seemed to make it easier, and say, this may not be a goal because it makes it easier.

    So we all agree, but because I didnt say it was good idea, I was "wrong".

    I agree with making it harder or doing whatever it needs to make to have this be a more enjoyable player experience.

    But if a "simple suggestion that fixes everything" has an element that seems to make it easier that may get pointed out by someone. Sorry that person was me.

    So to sum this up, you think that the following changes make the raid easier to complete?
    1) Changing the 20% increments from global ones to smaller, individual ones
    2) Doubling the hp of each phase
    3) Cutting percent damages in half

    Maybe that's where all the disconnect lies. If so, maybe you just need to explain why you think that makes the raid easier, and improve our suggestions to better fit what the community is after.
  • StarSon
    7409 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Not a single sentence in there saying anything about the thing we're complaining about.

    Lol
    requiring very close guild coordination.


    Oh, sorry, didn't know we were extrapolating "very close guild coordination" to mean "get two devices, keep one in airplane mode almost in perpetuity for the entirety of the raid and pray that no one else in the guild posts when they shouldn't, thus ruining the entire week for 49 other people."

    That is not the only way to do it, just FYI. You can also develop and plan for the guild to get past any praying or required airplane mode.

    Not to say concerns shouldn't be addressed, just pointing out this is not the only way to operate, if you push to develop into a different strategy. But yes coordination is still required. I agree that even the ideal scenarios require "too much", and developing up to the point to require less seems like a long road.

    What is the way to plan around a couple people accidentally posting and taking a phase below 60%?

    Develop a team that can do X% damage (give or take), have Y number of people with that team enter at the same time, (plus a few extra to make comfortable 100%+).

    Then set up thia schedule:
    Enter raid at A time, wait B number of minutes before taking action, or putting your team in danger of losing. Post at C time. No airplane mode required, and you can communicate that everyone is in before taking any action,and players can get back in or wait to enter if they have phone issues (I know some phones dont cooperate with app switching) That even gives you a little room for players to edge down the health with other teams and get back in for a second run, we do this in P2, to pretty good effect(just the edging part).

    This may seem similar to what players do not, but once everyone is in, no need to wait to post, the wait to post is just to make sure everyone gets in and this could lead to a phase being done in short bursts.

    Yes this idealized, but its sound and development helps make it easier and smoother, and also require less players to make it work.

    It's similar to what players do because it's basically exactly what they do.

    Going in at a pre-determined time, and waiting for a pre-determined number of minutes to do anything is exactly what everyone does. Sure, some people know enough about what's happening to not use airplane mode, but you still have to be in that run for however many minutes and do it multiple times for each phase. And phase 4 isn't nearly as straightforward.

    Sorry, your "solution" isn't really a "solution" when it's "what we already do."

    What I proposed (with development) could make a run per phase work in 10-15 minutes with no airplane mode. Which seems to be better than the hour you propose and doesnt require airplane mode, which was what you asked. I never said this was the way to do it or that it solves the problems we are discussing, you asked how to do it without airplane mode. Plan and coordinate, not coordinate and report damage, simple change, but it accomplishes the goal, and should shorten the time, and reduce the ability for someone else to ruin it for 49 others.

    What every guild already does is already only 10-15 minutes for each of the first 3 phases, and longer for phase 4. Simple math indicates that 10-15 minutes 3 times is 30-45 minutes, and a longer period of time added to that will be an hour.

    You seem to not understand what the point of airplane mode is. People use airplane mode as a "just in case". As in, I know how this run is going to go, but "just in case" I'll put it on airplane mode so that if I die I don't ruin a week's worth of ticket gather for 49 other people. Because if I post my 15% run before the other 85% is queued up, that's what I've just done.

    And we don't think you understand because you keep arguing about it. We are all saying this mechanic is garbage, and you keep saying things like "well then don't use it."
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Just so we're clear here, the below is what every guild does to complete this raid:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and do not post any damage until we know we have enough damage

    And what Kyno says we can do to make it easier:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and just go ahead and post your damage some predetermined number of minutes later

    2 - it doesnt need to be an hour, runs are actually fairly short.
    Sure, but there are 4 phases, and if you're prescribing times in this manner you have to give 10-15 minutes so enough people can start runs before someone screws it up. And also p4 is much more involved.
    3- the post time is less defined and doesnt require communication. And since you can develop to a point of
    having a more known quantity, airplane mode isnt required.
    Except it does require communication. And since you're doing them so quickly, you tell people the phase starts at noon and you post at 12:05, you're really going to wish there had been some communication.
    You asked how to do it without airplane mode.

    You're right, I did ask that. And you answered with "do it the same way just don't use airplane mode."

    The other 3 raids didn't have this limitation at all. There was no need to say "if we can't get 25 of you to be on and fully engaged during this very specific window of time, we can't beat this raid." AAT and STR just needed 2% per phase per member, and you had several hours to get that accomplished, as would be expected for a non-real time mobile game like this one.

    The method you proposed is how you do it now, and involves reporting damage, there are more changes in what I proposed than just not using airplane mode. Many people here talk about posting at the same time and that's not neccessary, so I was just trying to clarify that. You asked for more details and then say you are already doing that. Great, so there is no airplane mode issues in your guild? No second devices needed, right? Just a start time and then go right? It seems like you have this down, and should have jumped in to explain that to people calling out on those as issues.

    I was pointing out how development can reduce those necessities, that is all. You asked how, I went into more details, which you didnt need, I'm glad you have it all worked out.

    Absolutely this is different than other raids, never said it was the same. Never said what we are doing is what should or should not be expected of a game.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Just so we're clear here, the below is what every guild does to complete this raid:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and do not post any damage until we know we have enough damage

    And what Kyno says we can do to make it easier:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and just go ahead and post your damage some predetermined number of minutes later

    2 - it doesnt need to be an hour, runs are actually fairly short.
    Sure, but there are 4 phases, and if you're prescribing times in this manner you have to give 10-15 minutes so enough people can start runs before someone screws it up. And also p4 is much more involved.
    3- the post time is less defined and doesnt require communication. And since you can develop to a point of
    having a more known quantity, airplane mode isnt required.
    Except it does require communication. And since you're doing them so quickly, you tell people the phase starts at noon and you post at 12:05, you're really going to wish there had been some communication.
    You asked how to do it without airplane mode.

    You're right, I did ask that. And you answered with "do it the same way just don't use airplane mode."

    The other 3 raids didn't have this limitation at all. There was no need to say "if we can't get 25 of you to be on and fully engaged during this very specific window of time, we can't beat this raid." AAT and STR just needed 2% per phase per member, and you had several hours to get that accomplished, as would be expected for a non-real time mobile game like this one.

    The method you proposed is how you do it now, and involves reporting damage, there are more changes in what I proposed than just not using airplane mode. Many people here talk about posting at the same time and that's not neccessary, so I was just trying to clarify that. You asked for more details and then say you are already doing that. Great, so there is no airplane mode issues in your guild? No second devices needed, right? Just a start time and then go right? It seems like you have this down, and should have jumped in to explain that to people calling out on those as issues.

    I was pointing out how development can reduce those necessities, that is all. You asked how, I went into more details, which you didnt need, I'm glad you have it all worked out.

    Absolutely this is different than other raids, never said it was the same. Never said what we are doing is what should or should not be expected of a game.

    so you're saying 'git gud' is the solution?
  • StarSon
    7409 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Just so we're clear here, the below is what every guild does to complete this raid:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and do not post any damage until we know we have enough damage

    And what Kyno says we can do to make it easier:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and just go ahead and post your damage some predetermined number of minutes later

    2 - it doesnt need to be an hour, runs are actually fairly short.
    Sure, but there are 4 phases, and if you're prescribing times in this manner you have to give 10-15 minutes so enough people can start runs before someone screws it up. And also p4 is much more involved.
    3- the post time is less defined and doesnt require communication. And since you can develop to a point of
    having a more known quantity, airplane mode isnt required.
    Except it does require communication. And since you're doing them so quickly, you tell people the phase starts at noon and you post at 12:05, you're really going to wish there had been some communication.
    You asked how to do it without airplane mode.

    You're right, I did ask that. And you answered with "do it the same way just don't use airplane mode."

    The other 3 raids didn't have this limitation at all. There was no need to say "if we can't get 25 of you to be on and fully engaged during this very specific window of time, we can't beat this raid." AAT and STR just needed 2% per phase per member, and you had several hours to get that accomplished, as would be expected for a non-real time mobile game like this one.

    The method you proposed is how you do it now, and involves reporting damage, there are more changes in what I proposed than just not using airplane mode. Many people here talk about posting at the same time and that's not neccessary, so I was just trying to clarify that. You asked for more details and then say you are already doing that. Great, so there is no airplane mode issues in your guild? No second devices needed, right? Just a start time and then go right? It seems like you have this down, and should have jumped in to explain that to people calling out on those as issues.

    I was pointing out how development can reduce those necessities, that is all. You asked how, I went into more details, which you didnt need, I'm glad you have it all worked out.

    Absolutely this is different than other raids, never said it was the same. Never said what we are doing is what should or should not be expected of a game.

    I asked for more details because you claimed to have this plan that didn't require airplane mode. I assumed that you understood what people were already doing to beat the raid, and so your plan would be something different. Don't jump down my throat because your plan to not need airplane mode was simply to not use airplane mode.

    And I was merely pointing out the discrepancy. Didn't say you said anything about it. Was unaware I wasn't allowed to string multiple thoughts together in a single post. My bad.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Bear654687 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    IronCross wrote: »
    Cstone812 wrote: »
    Still waiting for some kind of response. Is this ever getting changed? I really don’t understand the logic behind this mechanic. My guild that’s been around since launch is seriously really frustrated over this. We have members from all over the world we all can’t be on at the same time to do this. Very frustrating.

    Yep, it is totally ridiculous they have taken this long to say nothing. They are completely ignorant of their player base.

    They have commented, it was too corporate and therefore dismissed.

    Unfortunately them discussing things doesnt always mean they can say anything until they have a more firm answer or idea of an answer.

    They commented on the difficulty, not the coordination required and specifically the 20% threshold mechanic. There's a huge difference, as many people have continued to note throughout the entire thread just to continue to be ignored.

    I was commenting on being completely ignorant of the community, which by acknowledging the community, is not accurate.

    Also there is this comment also:
    I understand tagging me in your posts on this thread, but trust I'm keeping an eye on it already. I will do my part to report community sentiment to the devs.

    Which if those are the community sentiment, they are being brought up by him, and me, but I dont count so dont worry about that.

    Not ignored, but we dont need to argue about that. They may not be able to comment on discussions going on until they have anything more firm to go on.

    This was said before the corporate response. There’s nothing they need to discuss. The mechanic is universally hated and a massive misstep on their part. Simply make the mechanic per individual run. Boom, problem solved

    That sounds good, but also sounds like it would change the difficulty of the raid, which I believe they are looking for and are happy with. But we dont know what they are considering around this whole situation.

    What? It prevents solos. Even SLKR in the perfect composition can’t get past around 50% in a single phase. Other than SLKR and Rey+Jawas I don’t know of a single composition that can top 25%. Why is such a bad thing that the difficulty as is, paired with a stacking mechanic that goes off every 20% (heck even change it to 10% for it based on each run) prevents exactly what they wanted to; solos. Even if someone is able to somehow get a full phase done, carry the stacks to the next phase. Or if the mechanic can’t do that, SLKR would be on his own still! He’s not taking down rancor in P2 alone. Or in p4. Not to mention the pool of characters available is small considering the R5 gear gate. Did we forget that too??

    Coordination does not correspond with difficulty. I’m sorry but there’s no defending forcing a guild that’s international to kick members because of their time zone. This isn’t like past raids where it was the difficulty that shuffled guilds up. It’s pure and basic bad mechanics. My guild is 285 mil GP and we have the rosters to win. However we have dozens of members scattered to different time zones and we refuse to force them to get up in the middle of the night to beat a raid on a mobile game, or to stop their real life dinners or business meetings. Come on now Kyno, this mechanic is trash and CG’s refusal to address it is even worse.

    @CG_Doja_Fett how far up the tree has this gotten?

    I have no clue how you think stacking every 10% would do any better??? You still need more then just yourself doing damage to complete a phase. Otherwise you are stuck at some point. Needling a couple members to hold damage then drop it all at one would still be required.
    The raid is designed this way and can only be beaten this way. Anything else would require more higher relic characters for just a true damage non solo raid. Watch what you wish for. This would have something like — 4 teams at relic 5-7 per phase. Then this would purely be a kraken raid.
    Then people would still hate on this raid.
    Like I said before, once people have more r8 characters the raid falls faster and with less and less members required.
    We are in the 30 min mark ourselves.

    I think the fact that their "coordination" mechanic can be so easily circumvented (your guild clearing it in 30 minutes; my 285M GP guild clearing it every time since our first try) is proof that they kind of failed on this raid.

    If I were trying to make it challenging, prevent solos, and require multiple participants per phase while not doing any serious coding work (the horror); I would do something along the following:
    - double health pool
    - halve the % damage done by % damage effects
    - change the stat stacking mechanic to be based on an individual

    For the last bullet point, you could stack every 5-10% per individual run. Heck, you could take a page out of the Reek playbook and just boost the speed/offense every time he is damaged. Lots of options they could have taken that would have required less work (the CG way) for a better result.

    Again, not saying they should not address things, just pointing out that lowering difficulty is not necessarily a goal they have

    Kyno, do you realize that quotes like this are what make people feel like the team isn't listening? NOBODY IS ASKING FOR THE RAID TO BE EASIER. The post you quoted literally just proposed making the raid HARDER in exchange for it not being so frustrating and requiring such an extreme amount of coordination.

    But if a suggestion has an element that does make it easier or more doable for a larger cross section of the player base, you do understand that may not be a goal they want, right?

    You are doubling down on your statement it appears, which just shows that you don't seem to understand. I know from past experience that continuing to try to explain this is a waste of my time.

    I would ask you to try, but that's ok. You can assume I dont understand, but it seems you are just not understanding what I was pointing out.

    May I ask do you agree with this:

    They should make changes that effect the coordination issue, even if they expand the % of the player base who can complete or the ease of which a guild can complete this raid? (No I do not mean ease in any way connected to the difficulty of outside elements like coordination and communication)

    Literally we're asking you to make it harder. Not easier.

    And all I pointed to was a comment that seemed to make it easier, and say, this may not be a goal because it makes it easier.

    So we all agree, but because I didnt say it was good idea, I was "wrong".

    I agree with making it harder or doing whatever it needs to make to have this be a more enjoyable player experience.

    But if a "simple suggestion that fixes everything" has an element that seems to make it easier that may get pointed out by someone. Sorry that person was me.

    That comment was mine. And that is NOT what I asked for. I offered 3 suggested changes. 2 would make the raid harder. The 3rd would make it "easier" by virtue of reducing the simultaneous posting nonsense. But depending on how the 3rd suggestions were implemented, it could also make it harder.

    Please stop putting assumptions/words in my post that weren't there.

    I didnt put anything in your post that was not just stated by you here.

    The simultaneous posting also pushes for a reduction in multiple runs by the same person, right? Or development of teams to have them be viable to make runs.

    Neither of your additions in difficulty address that, which is what I was pointing to as "making it easier". They bring it back to the multiple teams multiple run scenarios we use now, which they seem to be trying to make different with this raid. That is all I was pointing out.

    I am not saying they shouldn't address the issue and concerns being brought up. I was pointing to changes that have broader reaching effects towards in game difficulty in the suggestion.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Jakdnels wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Just so we're clear here, the below is what every guild does to complete this raid:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and do not post any damage until we know we have enough damage

    And what Kyno says we can do to make it easier:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and just go ahead and post your damage some predetermined number of minutes later

    2 - it doesnt need to be an hour, runs are actually fairly short.
    Sure, but there are 4 phases, and if you're prescribing times in this manner you have to give 10-15 minutes so enough people can start runs before someone screws it up. And also p4 is much more involved.
    3- the post time is less defined and doesnt require communication. And since you can develop to a point of
    having a more known quantity, airplane mode isnt required.
    Except it does require communication. And since you're doing them so quickly, you tell people the phase starts at noon and you post at 12:05, you're really going to wish there had been some communication.
    You asked how to do it without airplane mode.

    You're right, I did ask that. And you answered with "do it the same way just don't use airplane mode."

    The other 3 raids didn't have this limitation at all. There was no need to say "if we can't get 25 of you to be on and fully engaged during this very specific window of time, we can't beat this raid." AAT and STR just needed 2% per phase per member, and you had several hours to get that accomplished, as would be expected for a non-real time mobile game like this one.

    The method you proposed is how you do it now, and involves reporting damage, there are more changes in what I proposed than just not using airplane mode. Many people here talk about posting at the same time and that's not neccessary, so I was just trying to clarify that. You asked for more details and then say you are already doing that. Great, so there is no airplane mode issues in your guild? No second devices needed, right? Just a start time and then go right? It seems like you have this down, and should have jumped in to explain that to people calling out on those as issues.

    I was pointing out how development can reduce those necessities, that is all. You asked how, I went into more details, which you didnt need, I'm glad you have it all worked out.

    Absolutely this is different than other raids, never said it was the same. Never said what we are doing is what should or should not be expected of a game.

    so you're saying 'git gud' is the solution?

    Nope. Cant get good past this one, it still requires coordination at a level that hurts players RL stuff and that should be addressed.

    But if someone asks me how to do X without Y, and I have an idea, I will express that, especially when asked for more detail on something I already said.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Just so we're clear here, the below is what every guild does to complete this raid:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and do not post any damage until we know we have enough damage

    And what Kyno says we can do to make it easier:
    1. Have enough GL's and other teams to actually complete the raid
    2. Set a specific launch time and tell everyone they need to be online and available for at least an hour
    3. Start your phase runs at the predetermined time and just go ahead and post your damage some predetermined number of minutes later

    2 - it doesnt need to be an hour, runs are actually fairly short.
    Sure, but there are 4 phases, and if you're prescribing times in this manner you have to give 10-15 minutes so enough people can start runs before someone screws it up. And also p4 is much more involved.
    3- the post time is less defined and doesnt require communication. And since you can develop to a point of
    having a more known quantity, airplane mode isnt required.
    Except it does require communication. And since you're doing them so quickly, you tell people the phase starts at noon and you post at 12:05, you're really going to wish there had been some communication.
    You asked how to do it without airplane mode.

    You're right, I did ask that. And you answered with "do it the same way just don't use airplane mode."

    The other 3 raids didn't have this limitation at all. There was no need to say "if we can't get 25 of you to be on and fully engaged during this very specific window of time, we can't beat this raid." AAT and STR just needed 2% per phase per member, and you had several hours to get that accomplished, as would be expected for a non-real time mobile game like this one.

    The method you proposed is how you do it now, and involves reporting damage, there are more changes in what I proposed than just not using airplane mode. Many people here talk about posting at the same time and that's not neccessary, so I was just trying to clarify that. You asked for more details and then say you are already doing that. Great, so there is no airplane mode issues in your guild? No second devices needed, right? Just a start time and then go right? It seems like you have this down, and should have jumped in to explain that to people calling out on those as issues.

    I was pointing out how development can reduce those necessities, that is all. You asked how, I went into more details, which you didnt need, I'm glad you have it all worked out.

    Absolutely this is different than other raids, never said it was the same. Never said what we are doing is what should or should not be expected of a game.

    I asked for more details because you claimed to have this plan that didn't require airplane mode. I assumed that you understood what people were already doing to beat the raid, and so your plan would be something different. Don't jump down my throat because your plan to not need airplane mode was simply to not use airplane mode.

    And I was merely pointing out the discrepancy. Didn't say you said anything about it. Was unaware I wasn't allowed to string multiple thoughts together in a single post. My bad.

    Well one way requires air plane mode and less focus on development, while a focus on development and coordination can do it without airplane mode, you asked, I answered.

    Sorry from the many post declaring you need to coordinate the damage drop, I assumed you thought the same thing, when the real focus is on when you start, and not necessarily holding damage, but coordinating enough players to be able to do it comfortably. (Which is an issues for guilds and all guild leadership)
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Not a single sentence in there saying anything about the thing we're complaining about.

    Lol
    requiring very close guild coordination.


    Oh, sorry, didn't know we were extrapolating "very close guild coordination" to mean "get two devices, keep one in airplane mode almost in perpetuity for the entirety of the raid and pray that no one else in the guild posts when they shouldn't, thus ruining the entire week for 49 other people."

    That is not the only way to do it, just FYI. You can also develop and plan for the guild to get past any praying or required airplane mode.

    Not to say concerns shouldn't be addressed, just pointing out this is not the only way to operate, if you push to develop into a different strategy. But yes coordination is still required. I agree that even the ideal scenarios require "too much", and developing up to the point to require less seems like a long road.

    What is the way to plan around a couple people accidentally posting and taking a phase below 60%?

    Develop a team that can do X% damage (give or take), have Y number of people with that team enter at the same time, (plus a few extra to make comfortable 100%+).

    Then set up thia schedule:
    Enter raid at A time, wait B number of minutes before taking action, or putting your team in danger of losing. Post at C time. No airplane mode required, and you can communicate that everyone is in before taking any action,and players can get back in or wait to enter if they have phone issues (I know some phones dont cooperate with app switching) That even gives you a little room for players to edge down the health with other teams and get back in for a second run, we do this in P2, to pretty good effect(just the edging part).

    This may seem similar to what players do not, but once everyone is in, no need to wait to post, the wait to post is just to make sure everyone gets in and this could lead to a phase being done in short bursts.

    Yes this idealized, but its sound and development helps make it easier and smoother, and also require less players to make it work.

    It's similar to what players do because it's basically exactly what they do.

    Going in at a pre-determined time, and waiting for a pre-determined number of minutes to do anything is exactly what everyone does. Sure, some people know enough about what's happening to not use airplane mode, but you still have to be in that run for however many minutes and do it multiple times for each phase. And phase 4 isn't nearly as straightforward.

    Sorry, your "solution" isn't really a "solution" when it's "what we already do."

    What I proposed (with development) could make a run per phase work in 10-15 minutes with no airplane mode. Which seems to be better than the hour you propose and doesnt require airplane mode, which was what you asked. I never said this was the way to do it or that it solves the problems we are discussing, you asked how to do it without airplane mode. Plan and coordinate, not coordinate and report damage, simple change, but it accomplishes the goal, and should shorten the time, and reduce the ability for someone else to ruin it for 49 others.

    What every guild already does is already only 10-15 minutes for each of the first 3 phases, and longer for phase 4. Simple math indicates that 10-15 minutes 3 times is 30-45 minutes, and a longer period of time added to that will be an hour.

    You seem to not understand what the point of airplane mode is. People use airplane mode as a "just in case". As in, I know how this run is going to go, but "just in case" I'll put it on airplane mode so that if I die I don't ruin a week's worth of ticket gather for 49 other people. Because if I post my 15% run before the other 85% is queued up, that's what I've just done.

    And we don't think you understand because you keep arguing about it. We are all saying this mechanic is garbage, and you keep saying things like "well then don't use it."

    But nothing requires you to be on to do it all at once, again you post about getting on and being available for an hour.

    It could be 4 separate intervals which may actually make it easier to coordinate across a large group as not everyone is needed at each phase if they can't make it.

    Sorry you feel that way, I'm not saying dont use it, I'm saying you can plan and start a plan that does short bursts that never need airplane mode and allow for a more flexible run. Which can be easier than trying to report back damage after the action is taken, which seems to lead to problems, but to work around you need to developed enough to somewhat guarantee X damage.

    So it's just in case, but that's because you are starting your run "early" to be ready to post at X time. Just pointing out that if you all start your run 5-10 minutes after your join period, there is no just in case, because you can't ruin it for others.
  • Kyno, I think the issue is that you're proposing solutions to a problem that are almost already exactly what guilds are doing. We are all aware of how to work within the limits of the raid in it's current state.

    It's unhelpful to keep telling us how to down a raid we all do.


    It does sound like you recognize our other complainants, but the conversation is muddied by your ideas on how to beat the raid. We know how. That's not the issue.

    There are ways to achieve limiting the teams a player can use per phase, or anti solo mechanics, etc..

    This is not the way.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Bear654687 wrote: »
    Kyno, I think the issue is that you're proposing solutions to a problem that are almost already exactly what guilds are doing. We are all aware of how to work within the limits of the raid in it's current state.

    It's unhelpful to keep telling us how to down a raid we all do.


    It does sound like you recognize our other complainants, but the conversation is muddied by your ideas on how to beat the raid. We know how. That's not the issue.

    There are ways to achieve limiting the teams a player can use per phase, or anti solo mechanics, etc..

    This is not the way.

    My responses to this particular line were not in response to any direct issues, other than specifically being asked how to do this without airplane mode, and how development can make that easier.

    I agree there are other ways and that they should be looking to address the issues being raised by the community.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I agree there are other ways and that they should be looking to address the issues being raised by the community.

    That is fantastic and I'm sure the community will be grateful if things are changed are we're not forced to still go through a bunch of extra hoops for the next 12+ months.
  • Bear654687 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I agree there are other ways and that they should be looking to address the issues being raised by the community.

    That is fantastic and I'm sure the community will be grateful if things are changed are we're not forced to still go through a bunch of extra hoops for the next 12+ months.

    Yes we would be happy to not have this terrible experience for the next 12+ months but I have a feeling like all things with these people it’s going to months and not days...
  • Snake2
    1455 posts Member
    This raid is the most unfun thing they've ever added to this game. And my guild has cleared it every time.

    As an officer, i dread managing it, and i dread being forced to manage it for years should i even decide this game is still worth playing.

    As many have said in this thread already i'm sure, this is the main problem:

    -Airplane mode requirement, combined with coordinated damage requirement. This 1-2 punch is by far the nightmare of this raid, and it will never go away, because accidentally hitting multiple 20% thresholds can decimate you.

    This game has zero tools built in to deal with requirements like these. We have to use discord and hotbot to manage it, and combined with airplane mode and the risk of your game restarting when it's minimized, it's just silly.

    What should have been released along with this raid, would be the ability to choose whether or not to post your run after it is completed, and for that damage to go into a pool an officer could release when the needed damage threshold is reached.

    This is still a mobile game, and this raid should remember that.
  • Iy4oy4s
    2923 posts Member
    IronCross wrote: »
    Bear654687 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    I agree there are other ways and that they should be looking to address the issues being raised by the community.

    That is fantastic and I'm sure the community will be grateful if things are changed are we're not forced to still go through a bunch of extra hoops for the next 12+ months.

    Yes we would be happy to not have this terrible experience for the next 12+ months but I have a feeling like all things with these people it’s going to months and not days...

    Let LSGTB be your guide! That TB is still unfinishable over a year later.
  • TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Not a single sentence in there saying anything about the thing we're complaining about.

    Lol
    requiring very close guild coordination.


    Oh, sorry, didn't know we were extrapolating "very close guild coordination" to mean "get two devices, keep one in airplane mode almost in perpetuity for the entirety of the raid and pray that no one else in the guild posts when they shouldn't, thus ruining the entire week for 49 other people."

    You just moved the goalposts on your original statement, which was "not a single sentence in there saying anything about the thing we're complaining about." That was a sentence about the thing you are complaining about. Just because you don't like what they said doesn't mean they didn't say it.

    Actually what you quoted wasn't a sentence, it was a sentence fragment
  • Dropping this comment to let y'all know the community sentiment regarding coordination efforts for Rancor CT have been relayed to the devs. No idea what the result (if any) will be, but it's being discussed.
  • Esharan wrote: »
    Dropping this comment to let y'all know the community sentiment regarding coordination efforts for Rancor CT have been relayed to the devs. No idea what the result (if any) will be, but it's being discussed.

    Thanks - this raid is truly cancerous, and is eating guilds apart from the inside because of the bunk mechanics.

    That said, please release more Relic 8 material packs for us whales that want to R8 some more but cant beat the raid itself :)

    And make them FLATTER too
  • Dropping this comment to let y'all know the community sentiment regarding coordination efforts for Rancor CT have been relayed to the devs. No idea what the result (if any) will be, but it's being discussed.
    One thing I have thought of as definitely a help would be to allow a 60k buffer (240k total) ticket limit instead of the current 30k (210k total)
    This would allow us to at least shift the timing by 24 hours to avoid key TB/TW/GAC times as this currently is hard to do.

    But thanks for coming back
  • Snake2 wrote: »
    This raid is the most unfun thing they've ever added to this game. And my guild has cleared it every time.

    As an officer, i dread managing it, and i dread being forced to manage it for years should i even decide this game is still worth playing.

    As many have said in this thread already i'm sure, this is the main problem:

    -Airplane mode requirement, combined with coordinated damage requirement. This 1-2 punch is by far the nightmare of this raid, and it will never go away, because accidentally hitting multiple 20% thresholds can decimate you.

    This game has zero tools built in to deal with requirements like these. We have to use discord and hotbot to manage it, and combined with airplane mode and the risk of your game restarting when it's minimized, it's just silly.

    What should have been released along with this raid, would be the ability to choose whether or not to post your run after it is completed, and for that damage to go into a pool an officer could release when the needed damage threshold is reached.

    This is still a mobile game, and this raid should remember that.

    He couldn’t had said it any better. The work involved from officers to try coordinate this raid is ridiculous. An the fact u have 50 ppl in a guild possibly from 5 diff time zones an telling them they have be online at this time to do their attacks is just asking to much. I get its meant be a guild effort but should be doable with far less ppl. People that are normally very reliable in most guild events may find themselves being booted from a guild cuz of the ridiculous expectations laid upon them to finish this raid. An the quote above said all tht needs be said about the tools u need to try coordinate this raid and none of these tools are provided by swgoh. Im a guild officer an this raid makes me wanna pull my hair out an not even run it for a handful of r8 salvage. The gear from it is just a joke. Definitely not worth the work. Please do something to fix this before it breaks up a lot of guilds an runs off a lot of frustrated ppl.
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