The Last Jedi Questions

wilhud
37 posts Member
Just curious what you all think. I keep seeing things written lately about the sequel trilogy and people writing about the last jedi and saying how it was doing something different with star wars and had masterful storytelling, a true hero’s story and was full of diversity, etc. But i dont know what they are referring to.

I didnt feel like the story was any better than the george lucas films story-wise, since they are all structured around joseph campbell’s the hero’s journey. The cast was the same in all 3 films and if anything, it seemed odd to completely change finn and rey’s relationship and suddenly make rose “the fangirl” a love interest of finn. The concept of the fangirl in the movie to begin with was super weird to me.

Diversity-wise, past characters like Lando and Cassian seemed more layered as a character and Chirrut and Baze overall seemed more heroic to me than characters like Finn and Rose. Their stories just seemed too inconsistent to follow what was going on with them.

Snoke seemed like a useless villain that had been pumped up to be something amazing yet was easily defeated. His guards seemed more skilled, more powerful and more interesting than he did.

Im just really confused what i am missing that was so great about that movie. I didnt dislike it as a movie, i thought it was pretty amazing visually, but it just seemed like some super cool high concept visuals that were pieced together to make a movie. The movie itself didnt make any sense to the overall storyline in my opinion. But im curious why so many feel like it was this big amazing story and so diverse and so heroic.

Im totally open to watching it again if i can understand better where these things come into play in the movie because i feel like maybe i am missing something. Can anyone point me to what i am missing?

Thanks!

Replies

  • Nihion
    3206 posts Member
    In my experience, the Internet does not look kindly upon The Last Jedi. Personally, I like it more and more as I keep watching and learning about it, but initially I found it disappointing.

    The Last Jedi was built up a lot before it came out (all big movies are). I even heard that there would be a bigger twist than Darth Vader = Luke’s Old Man. However, most of the twists of the movie are made to subvert expectations rather than provide intriguing and juicy bits of narrative. That along with a little bit of poor writing, Luke’s unpopular portrayal, and virtually no coordination from Disney, Rian Johnson and J.J. Abrams left a bad taste in the mouths of many.

    Last Jedi was met with a great critical response and was actually pretty well received by more people than I expected, but those people don’t praise it for being a great Star Wars movie. Rian Johnson is a great director, and he crafted a powerful film about the nuances of good and evil. Unfortunately, his movie doesn’t fit in well with the rest of the Star Wars universe, and a movie in a trilogy kind of needs to do that.

    Diversity wise the movie was better than some, but can always do better. If you want to know more about how diversity was treated in the sequel trilogy, I suggest looking at what John and Kelly have said about it.

    Overall, I think it mostly just comes down to what you value in a Star Wars movie. If you’re looking for a complicated approach to a popular saga’s core message, TLJ is for you. If you’ve always looked up to Luke Skywalker and value a cohesive and fun narrative, it’s probably best to move past it quickly (although I could make an argument about how important the film’s “flaws” message is, especially when it comes to Luke). Anyway, I hope this helped!
  • DatBoi
    3606 posts Member
    I appreciate a lot about it. I enjoy its mythical interpretation and portrayal of the Force, I think Rey and Kylo’s characters are brilliantly expanded on from TFA, I think Luke is an extremely compelling character (even if he might be somewhat inconsistent from his portrayal in RoTJ), and I think it has a perfect grasp on what distinguishes the Light from the Dark sides. I also enjoy much about the presentation - art direction and cinematography in particular.

    It’s not one of my personal favorite Star Wars films, but I do understand why a lot of people love it.
  • I don’t hate it, like so many on the internet, though I’m not especially fond of it either. There should have at least been a plan for the trilogy as a whole and it shouldn’t have been split up between different people.
  • Sebek
    1971 posts Member
    I personally loved it!
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  • Xcien
    1077 posts Member
    I don’t hate it, like so many on the internet, though I’m not especially fond of it either. There should have at least been a plan for the trilogy as a whole and it shouldn’t have been split up between different people.

    Agreed. While I don't hate it, it's not my favorite. But I think it would have been better if the sequel trilogy would have been done by the same person.
    "Thank you for evaluating."
  • wilhud
    37 posts Member
    Thanks for the feedback everyone!

    I've only seen the movie once when it first came out in theaters. I usually try to stay away from reading anything about a movie until I have seen it, especially Star Wars movies, but I remember reading an article interviewing Rian Johnson before seeing the movie. The two things that stuck out to me from the interview were him saying that he wanted to have a fanboy in the movie and that he had a handful of scenes he envisioned for the movie which he then wrote the script around those. So maybe reading that article had me hyper focused on those things and not able to actually sit and watch and enjoy the movie.

    After seeing it the first time, I remember leaving feeling torn...I really liked so many things about the movie, the throne room battle, Luke's force projection scene, Rey's cave scene and the movie on its own was very good and very well done. But the treatment of Luke's character, Snoke being built up to be so powerful only to be easily struck down, Phasma still being fairly weak, the tease of the Knights of Ren but nothing really done with them, the Holdo Maneuver (Anakin's similar tactic was much better and didn't require his death), the milk scene...but mostly the fact that it didn't fit well with any of them other Star Wars movie. It all made me not really know what to think about it.

    I will probably watch it again soon. I also probably unfairly judge all second films in the trilogies because I want them to be as good as Empire Strikes Back lol.
  • Watch it again and try to just treat it as a stand alone film, even though it takes a bit of mental gymnastics. It’s actually quite enjoyable.
    The sequels are good individual films but don’t work as a trilogy, much like the prequels are terrible films but have a solid story (all my opinion of course).
  • LordDirt
    2200 posts Member
    Most SW movies dont get great love when they first come out. It usually takes a few years. ESB was not loved when it came out.

    I like TLJ but everyone has their own opinion. My list of top SW movies will not be the usual suspects.

    BTW, I can't stand TRoS. :|

  • TLJ: not my Luke Skywalker, not my Star Wars. Take your subverted expectations and expel them from your exhaust port.

    Even as a stand-alone film, TLJ is bantha poodoo; in fact, it is WORSE as a stand-alone. By itself, who are these people standing on an island at the beginning of the film and why do I care about them? It would appear she is looking toward old man for help, but old man doesn't care and doesn't help, so she leaves. In short, their relationship doesn't matter so I don't care. That theme is repeated over and over in this film: it doesn't matter, so I don't care.

    Nothing wrong with doing something different in a SW film and expanding the universe. ESB, ROTJ, Rogue One did this well without breaking lore. Even small bits of TPM, AOTC, ROTS were interesting (if juvenile) additions when they were not creating other story problems.

    In one film, TLJ basically undid everything established in every other SW film. I liked Star Wars, I liked what had been established. Why would I want a film that ruined all of that?
  • Nihion
    3206 posts Member
    ^^^This is the opinion I’ve seen the most on the Internet. It’s very much okay to dislike the film, but I suggest not taking up this particular opinion.
  • TVF
    29516 posts Member
    Lol at "not my Luke not my SW"
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • I really dislike TLJ, but if you like it, that’s up to you. Personally I’d rather read the Expanded Universe books than watch any of the sequels. I can kind of see what people like about TLJ, but I really didn’t like how Luke was portrayed, Snoke was weak, and Rose would have worked better elsewhere and with better dialogue. I couldn’t stand Holdo, I don’t see why they didn’t have a droid pilot the ship for the Holdo maneuver so that she wouldn’t die, and I found it ridiculous that leia survived in space with no pressure suit or anything. I was also disappointed with Finn, because he seemed like a really cool character in TFA, but in TLJ he just lost a lot of that for me. I don’t really like Rey either, mainly because she was too powerful. She barely had any training, and she beat Luke. I wouldn’t have had a problem with her beating Luke if she had had training, because that would show character development and we could see how much she progressed in her skills and knowledge of the force, but the way it happened it made her seem like she didn’t even need training, which was kind of the point of her going to find Luke. I also didn’t like the scene where Rose crashed her speeder into Finn’s to stop him from taking out that weapon, where she said that they would win not by fighting what they hate, but saving what they love. It’s a nice sentiment, but that was what Finn was trying to do, by taking out the weapon he was trying to save the resistance. So if you like TLJ, good for you, that’s totally your choice and it’s just a movie, not something to hate on people for, which a lot of people who dislike TLJ do. I personally don’t like it for the reasons I’ve listed and several more, but that’s just me.
  • Sebek
    1971 posts Member
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    I really dislike TLJ, but if you like it, that’s up to you. Personally I’d rather read the Expanded Universe books than watch any of the sequels. I can kind of see what people like about TLJ, but I really didn’t like how Luke was portrayed, Snoke was weak, and Rose would have worked better elsewhere and with better dialogue. I couldn’t stand Holdo, I don’t see why they didn’t have a droid pilot the ship for the Holdo maneuver so that she wouldn’t die, and I found it ridiculous that leia survived in space with no pressure suit or anything. I was also disappointed with Finn, because he seemed like a really cool character in TFA, but in TLJ he just lost a lot of that for me. I don’t really like Rey either, mainly because she was too powerful. She barely had any training, and she beat Luke. I wouldn’t have had a problem with her beating Luke if she had had training, because that would show character development and we could see how much she progressed in her skills and knowledge of the force, but the way it happened it made her seem like she didn’t even need training, which was kind of the point of her going to find Luke. I also didn’t like the scene where Rose crashed her speeder into Finn’s to stop him from taking out that weapon, where she said that they would win not by fighting what they hate, but saving what they love. It’s a nice sentiment, but that was what Finn was trying to do, by taking out the weapon he was trying to save the resistance. So if you like TLJ, good for you, that’s totally your choice and it’s just a movie, not something to hate on people for, which a lot of people who dislike TLJ do. I personally don’t like it for the reasons I’ve listed and several more, but that’s just me.

    For the Leia argument, i respectfully disagree, because we saw Force Users survive many times (For example Kanan Jarrus)
    Join the Dark Side, We Have Cookies.
    Join the Light Side, We Have Wookies.
  • Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    I really dislike TLJ, but if you like it, that’s up to you. Personally I’d rather read the Expanded Universe books than watch any of the sequels. I can kind of see what people like about TLJ, but I really didn’t like how Luke was portrayed, Snoke was weak, and Rose would have worked better elsewhere and with better dialogue. I couldn’t stand Holdo, I don’t see why they didn’t have a droid pilot the ship for the Holdo maneuver so that she wouldn’t die, and I found it ridiculous that leia survived in space with no pressure suit or anything. I was also disappointed with Finn, because he seemed like a really cool character in TFA, but in TLJ he just lost a lot of that for me. I don’t really like Rey either, mainly because she was too powerful. She barely had any training, and she beat Luke. I wouldn’t have had a problem with her beating Luke if she had had training, because that would show character development and we could see how much she progressed in her skills and knowledge of the force, but the way it happened it made her seem like she didn’t even need training, which was kind of the point of her going to find Luke. I also didn’t like the scene where Rose crashed her speeder into Finn’s to stop him from taking out that weapon, where she said that they would win not by fighting what they hate, but saving what they love. It’s a nice sentiment, but that was what Finn was trying to do, by taking out the weapon he was trying to save the resistance. So if you like TLJ, good for you, that’s totally your choice and it’s just a movie, not something to hate on people for, which a lot of people who dislike TLJ do. I personally don’t like it for the reasons I’ve listed and several more, but that’s just me.

    For the Leia argument, i respectfully disagree, because we saw Force Users survive many times (For example Kanan Jarrus)

    Could you remind me of when it happened with Kanan? I haven’t watched Rebels in a while and I can’t remember what you’re referring to.
  • Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    I really dislike TLJ, but if you like it, that’s up to you. Personally I’d rather read the Expanded Universe books than watch any of the sequels. I can kind of see what people like about TLJ, but I really didn’t like how Luke was portrayed, Snoke was weak, and Rose would have worked better elsewhere and with better dialogue. I couldn’t stand Holdo, I don’t see why they didn’t have a droid pilot the ship for the Holdo maneuver so that she wouldn’t die, and I found it ridiculous that leia survived in space with no pressure suit or anything. I was also disappointed with Finn, because he seemed like a really cool character in TFA, but in TLJ he just lost a lot of that for me. I don’t really like Rey either, mainly because she was too powerful. She barely had any training, and she beat Luke. I wouldn’t have had a problem with her beating Luke if she had had training, because that would show character development and we could see how much she progressed in her skills and knowledge of the force, but the way it happened it made her seem like she didn’t even need training, which was kind of the point of her going to find Luke. I also didn’t like the scene where Rose crashed her speeder into Finn’s to stop him from taking out that weapon, where she said that they would win not by fighting what they hate, but saving what they love. It’s a nice sentiment, but that was what Finn was trying to do, by taking out the weapon he was trying to save the resistance. So if you like TLJ, good for you, that’s totally your choice and it’s just a movie, not something to hate on people for, which a lot of people who dislike TLJ do. I personally don’t like it for the reasons I’ve listed and several more, but that’s just me.

    For the Leia argument, i respectfully disagree, because we saw Force Users survive many times (For example Kanan Jarrus)

    Could you remind me of when it happened with Kanan? I haven’t watched Rebels in a while and I can’t remember what you’re referring to.

    Maul pushes him put of the ship, but he force pushes himself back into the ship

    That sounds familiar, but weren’t they in the atmosphere of a planet, or am I remembering wrong?
  • Sebek
    1971 posts Member
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    I really dislike TLJ, but if you like it, that’s up to you. Personally I’d rather read the Expanded Universe books than watch any of the sequels. I can kind of see what people like about TLJ, but I really didn’t like how Luke was portrayed, Snoke was weak, and Rose would have worked better elsewhere and with better dialogue. I couldn’t stand Holdo, I don’t see why they didn’t have a droid pilot the ship for the Holdo maneuver so that she wouldn’t die, and I found it ridiculous that leia survived in space with no pressure suit or anything. I was also disappointed with Finn, because he seemed like a really cool character in TFA, but in TLJ he just lost a lot of that for me. I don’t really like Rey either, mainly because she was too powerful. She barely had any training, and she beat Luke. I wouldn’t have had a problem with her beating Luke if she had had training, because that would show character development and we could see how much she progressed in her skills and knowledge of the force, but the way it happened it made her seem like she didn’t even need training, which was kind of the point of her going to find Luke. I also didn’t like the scene where Rose crashed her speeder into Finn’s to stop him from taking out that weapon, where she said that they would win not by fighting what they hate, but saving what they love. It’s a nice sentiment, but that was what Finn was trying to do, by taking out the weapon he was trying to save the resistance. So if you like TLJ, good for you, that’s totally your choice and it’s just a movie, not something to hate on people for, which a lot of people who dislike TLJ do. I personally don’t like it for the reasons I’ve listed and several more, but that’s just me.

    For the Leia argument, i respectfully disagree, because we saw Force Users survive many times (For example Kanan Jarrus)

    Could you remind me of when it happened with Kanan? I haven’t watched Rebels in a while and I can’t remember what you’re referring to.

    Maul pushes him put of the ship, but he force pushes himself back into the ship

    That sounds familiar, but weren’t they in the atmosphere of a planet, or am I remembering wrong?

    You are remembering wrong, though i relate because i didn't remember it vividly too, just remembered that he was in space
    Join the Dark Side, We Have Cookies.
    Join the Light Side, We Have Wookies.
  • Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    I really dislike TLJ, but if you like it, that’s up to you. Personally I’d rather read the Expanded Universe books than watch any of the sequels. I can kind of see what people like about TLJ, but I really didn’t like how Luke was portrayed, Snoke was weak, and Rose would have worked better elsewhere and with better dialogue. I couldn’t stand Holdo, I don’t see why they didn’t have a droid pilot the ship for the Holdo maneuver so that she wouldn’t die, and I found it ridiculous that leia survived in space with no pressure suit or anything. I was also disappointed with Finn, because he seemed like a really cool character in TFA, but in TLJ he just lost a lot of that for me. I don’t really like Rey either, mainly because she was too powerful. She barely had any training, and she beat Luke. I wouldn’t have had a problem with her beating Luke if she had had training, because that would show character development and we could see how much she progressed in her skills and knowledge of the force, but the way it happened it made her seem like she didn’t even need training, which was kind of the point of her going to find Luke. I also didn’t like the scene where Rose crashed her speeder into Finn’s to stop him from taking out that weapon, where she said that they would win not by fighting what they hate, but saving what they love. It’s a nice sentiment, but that was what Finn was trying to do, by taking out the weapon he was trying to save the resistance. So if you like TLJ, good for you, that’s totally your choice and it’s just a movie, not something to hate on people for, which a lot of people who dislike TLJ do. I personally don’t like it for the reasons I’ve listed and several more, but that’s just me.

    For the Leia argument, i respectfully disagree, because we saw Force Users survive many times (For example Kanan Jarrus)

    Could you remind me of when it happened with Kanan? I haven’t watched Rebels in a while and I can’t remember what you’re referring to.

    Maul pushes him put of the ship, but he force pushes himself back into the ship

    That sounds familiar, but weren’t they in the atmosphere of a planet, or am I remembering wrong?

    You are remembering wrong, though i relate because i didn't remember it vividly too, just remembered that he was in space

    Ok, you have a fair point. I really should rewatch Rebels. I don’t really think it should be possible for anyone though, because it seems like depressurization would kill someone instantly.
  • Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    Sebek wrote: »
    JainaSolo wrote: »
    I really dislike TLJ, but if you like it, that’s up to you. Personally I’d rather read the Expanded Universe books than watch any of the sequels. I can kind of see what people like about TLJ, but I really didn’t like how Luke was portrayed, Snoke was weak, and Rose would have worked better elsewhere and with better dialogue. I couldn’t stand Holdo, I don’t see why they didn’t have a droid pilot the ship for the Holdo maneuver so that she wouldn’t die, and I found it ridiculous that leia survived in space with no pressure suit or anything. I was also disappointed with Finn, because he seemed like a really cool character in TFA, but in TLJ he just lost a lot of that for me. I don’t really like Rey either, mainly because she was too powerful. She barely had any training, and she beat Luke. I wouldn’t have had a problem with her beating Luke if she had had training, because that would show character development and we could see how much she progressed in her skills and knowledge of the force, but the way it happened it made her seem like she didn’t even need training, which was kind of the point of her going to find Luke. I also didn’t like the scene where Rose crashed her speeder into Finn’s to stop him from taking out that weapon, where she said that they would win not by fighting what they hate, but saving what they love. It’s a nice sentiment, but that was what Finn was trying to do, by taking out the weapon he was trying to save the resistance. So if you like TLJ, good for you, that’s totally your choice and it’s just a movie, not something to hate on people for, which a lot of people who dislike TLJ do. I personally don’t like it for the reasons I’ve listed and several more, but that’s just me.

    For the Leia argument, i respectfully disagree, because we saw Force Users survive many times (For example Kanan Jarrus)

    Could you remind me of when it happened with Kanan? I haven’t watched Rebels in a while and I can’t remember what you’re referring to.

    Maul pushes him put of the ship, but he force pushes himself back into the ship

    That sounds familiar, but weren’t they in the atmosphere of a planet, or am I remembering wrong?

    You are remembering wrong, though i relate because i didn't remember it vividly too, just remembered that he was in space

    Ok, you have a fair point. I really should rewatch Rebels. I don’t really think it should be possible for anyone though, because it seems like depressurization would kill someone instantly.

    In real life, you have about 15 seconds, but it's probably longer if your with the Force

    Ok, that is interesting to know. I don’t know about Kanan, but it seemed like Leia was probably out of the shop for at least a minute though, before she got back onto the ship. That’s just a guess though
  • LordDirt
    2200 posts Member
    "Johnson said the flashiest ability, Leia’s newfound ability to survive short exposure to the vacuum of space and propel herself back to the ship, was instinct rather than a conscious use of her power.

    That was something Kathy [Kennedy] was always asking: Why has this never manifested in Leia? She obviously made a choice, because in Return of the Jedi Luke tells her, “You have that power too.” I liked the idea that it’s not Luke concentrating, reaching for the lightsaber; it’s an instinctual survival thing, like when you hear stories of a parent whose toddler is caught under a car and they get superhuman strength, or a drowning person clawing their way to the surface. It’s basically just her not being done with the fight yet.
    I wanted it to happen [for Carrie] and I knew it was going to be a stretch. It’s a big moment, and I’m sure it will land different ways for different people, but for me it felt like a really emotionally satisfying thing to see."

    https://www.inverse.com/article/39603-star-wars-last-jedi-leia-space-force-powers-rian-johnson
  • I feel like there were some moments in TLJ that were extremely cheesy. Overall the sequel trilogy isn’t terrible, yet they aren’t the greatest either. Disney could have done better. However I still liked them.
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