Bad Batch S1:E6 Chat (SPOILERS)

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  • In Legends, Order 66 was one of many contingency orders, Order 65 was to remove the Chancellor from office.
    The Jedi probably knew the order was there, but never expected it to be called. After all, they believed Palpatine was on their side so why would he call for the clones to execute the order?
  • In Legends, Order 66 was one of many contingency orders, Order 65 was to remove the Chancellor from office.
    The Jedi probably knew the order was there, but never expected it to be called. After all, they believed Palpatine was on their side so why would he call for the clones to execute the order?

    I understand that. But if I were a Jedi, and read the list of orders, I wouldn't trust the clones. Maybe that is my cynical nature turning me into Rahm Kota.
  • Nihion
    3210 posts Member
    I think that Palpatine definitely did have secret dealings with the Kaminoans, as implied multiple times in Clone Wars. I believe that Order 66 was hidden from the Jedi along with the inhibitor chips. They probably should have investigated more, but they needed their help on Geonosis in AOTC so they brought them in. From there on out, the Jedi see the clones as trusted allies, as the Jedi trust in people.

    However, I endorse the perspective that the Jedi overlooked their demise. It represents the flaws of their Order, and those flaws include feeling like there is nothing that could destroy the Jedi.
  • Nihion wrote: »
    I think that Palpatine definitely did have secret dealings with the Kaminoans, as implied multiple times in Clone Wars. I believe that Order 66 was hidden from the Jedi along with the inhibitor chips. They probably should have investigated more, but they needed their help on Geonosis in AOTC so they brought them in. From there on out, the Jedi see the clones as trusted allies, as the Jedi trust in people.

    However, I endorse the perspective that the Jedi overlooked their demise. It represents the flaws of their Order, and those flaws include feeling like there is nothing that could destroy the Jedi.

    Interesting. I think the chip made things more complex. Unnecessarily so.

    But with the chip malfunction, it does make Bad Batch more interesting. Hopefully this weeks episode is where things pick up the pace.
  • Nihion
    3210 posts Member
    Nihion wrote: »
    I think that Palpatine definitely did have secret dealings with the Kaminoans, as implied multiple times in Clone Wars. I believe that Order 66 was hidden from the Jedi along with the inhibitor chips. They probably should have investigated more, but they needed their help on Geonosis in AOTC so they brought them in. From there on out, the Jedi see the clones as trusted allies, as the Jedi trust in people.

    However, I endorse the perspective that the Jedi overlooked their demise. It represents the flaws of their Order, and those flaws include feeling like there is nothing that could destroy the Jedi.

    Interesting. I think the chip made things more complex. Unnecessarily so.

    But with the chip malfunction, it does make Bad Batch more interesting. Hopefully this weeks episode is where things pick up the pace.

    Agreed. Also, the inhibitor chip idea is interesting, but I agree that there could have been a more narratively juicy reason that the clones turn on the Jedi. For example: TCW does a great job of establishing Anakin as a great leader who values his soldiers. Besides Yoda, the rest of the Jedi seem to treat the clones as almost dispensable. Pong Krell was an extremist, but there were other Jedi who thought similarly. TCW could have set up an arc that put a barrier between the Jedi and the clones. Then when Anakin leads them against the Jedi in ROTS, there would be a reason greater than “we brainwashed them.”
  • Kyno
    29947 posts Moderator
    Nihion wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    I think that Palpatine definitely did have secret dealings with the Kaminoans, as implied multiple times in Clone Wars. I believe that Order 66 was hidden from the Jedi along with the inhibitor chips. They probably should have investigated more, but they needed their help on Geonosis in AOTC so they brought them in. From there on out, the Jedi see the clones as trusted allies, as the Jedi trust in people.

    However, I endorse the perspective that the Jedi overlooked their demise. It represents the flaws of their Order, and those flaws include feeling like there is nothing that could destroy the Jedi.

    Interesting. I think the chip made things more complex. Unnecessarily so.

    But with the chip malfunction, it does make Bad Batch more interesting. Hopefully this weeks episode is where things pick up the pace.

    Agreed. Also, the inhibitor chip idea is interesting, but I agree that there could have been a more narratively juicy reason that the clones turn on the Jedi. For example: TCW does a great job of establishing Anakin as a great leader who values his soldiers. Besides Yoda, the rest of the Jedi seem to treat the clones as almost dispensable. Pong Krell was an extremist, but there were other Jedi who thought similarly. TCW could have set up an arc that put a barrier between the Jedi and the clones. Then when Anakin leads them against the Jedi in ROTS, there would be a reason greater than “we brainwashed them.”

    The problem with any "soft" reason like this is that it wouldnt be a decisive and swift action. There would be some clones that would be on the "other side", and without the full on blindside of a single order causing the attack in the way Order 66 did, you would never have defeated so many jedi.

    There needs to be a "hard" cut off that didnt give any room for escape or a drawn out battle. It's hard to do that without an Order 66 type event.
  • I think the chip works narratively. The clones were created for the sole purpose of being soldiers. They had accelerated growth and (presumably) shorter natural life spans. It’s really really evil what Palpatine did with the clones, and incredibly tragic. Watch the season six arc about it and then the siege of mandalore arc. Basically he created these guys to die in a war he was controlling both sides of, and then completely removed their free will and forced them to kill their commanders, who were in many cases their friends. I think it works. No way would Rex have turned on Ahsoka other than a mechanism like the chip.

    It’s a neat parallel in siege of mandalore, Jesse betrays Ahsoka twice. The first time Maul uses the force to get information about her that he did not want to give. And then order 66 happened and he led the hunt for her.
  • One would think that the Jedi would do a more thorough investigation before fielding the clones.

    Except the Jedi didn't field the clones. The Republic did, and the Jedi do not lead the Republic. They are, of course, influential. And they are given rank as a way to help them do their real jobs (protecting people, keeping peace) but even commanders and generals have superior officers. If the high command orders a ship or a fleet away from where the Jedi need support, the Jedi have no direct authority to revisit that decision, and if the Jedi want to field a droid army instead of clones, or a volunteer one, then that's interesting and all, but they don't get to make the choice.

    It only seems like the Jedi have more power than they do because Syfo Dias negotiated the original contract. But the Republic is paying for them, and the Republic, which means the Chancellor & the Senate, gets to decide what to do with them.
  • Chucko_marek
    3763 posts Member
    edited June 10
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    Nihion wrote: »
    I think that Palpatine definitely did have secret dealings with the Kaminoans, as implied multiple times in Clone Wars. I believe that Order 66 was hidden from the Jedi along with the inhibitor chips. They probably should have investigated more, but they needed their help on Geonosis in AOTC so they brought them in. From there on out, the Jedi see the clones as trusted allies, as the Jedi trust in people.

    However, I endorse the perspective that the Jedi overlooked their demise. It represents the flaws of their Order, and those flaws include feeling like there is nothing that could destroy the Jedi.

    Interesting. I think the chip made things more complex. Unnecessarily so.

    But with the chip malfunction, it does make Bad Batch more interesting. Hopefully this weeks episode is where things pick up the pace.

    Agreed. Also, the inhibitor chip idea is interesting, but I agree that there could have been a more narratively juicy reason that the clones turn on the Jedi. For example: TCW does a great job of establishing Anakin as a great leader who values his soldiers. Besides Yoda, the rest of the Jedi seem to treat the clones as almost dispensable. Pong Krell was an extremist, but there were other Jedi who thought similarly. TCW could have set up an arc that put a barrier between the Jedi and the clones. Then when Anakin leads them against the Jedi in ROTS, there would be a reason greater than “we brainwashed them.”

    The problem with any "soft" reason like this is that it wouldnt be a decisive and swift action. There would be some clones that would be on the "other side", and without the full on blindside of a single order causing the attack in the way Order 66 did, you would never have defeated so many jedi.

    There needs to be a "hard" cut off that didnt give any room for escape or a drawn out battle. It's hard to do that without an Order 66 type event.

    That's true. Legends Battlefront 2, the good one about the 501st journal says "When the 501st was finally rotated out of Felucia, Aayla Secura made a point of seeing us off personally, calling us the bravest soldiers she had ever seen. It's a good thing we were wearing helmets, because none of us could bear to look her in the eye." and "When her death came, I hope it was quick. She earned that much."

    Isn't the real reason the chip was introduced because they needed to draw a distinctive line between good and bad and give a reason that the clones switched sides?

    CaroCanon wrote: »
    I think the chip works narratively. The clones were created for the sole purpose of being soldiers. They had accelerated growth and (presumably) shorter natural life spans. It’s really really evil what Palpatine did with the clones, and incredibly tragic. Watch the season six arc about it and then the siege of mandalore arc. Basically he created these guys to die in a war he was controlling both sides of, and then completely removed their free will and forced them to kill their commanders, who were in many cases their friends. I think it works. No way would Rex have turned on Ahsoka other than a mechanism like the chip.

    It’s a neat parallel in siege of mandalore, Jesse betrays Ahsoka twice. The first time Maul uses the force to get information about her that he did not want to give. And then order 66 happened and he led the hunt for her.

    The part I liked more in legends is that the clones were bred to eliminate the Jedi. Jango was chosen for the job by Dooku because he was able to take down a rogue apprentice of his. IMHO, it fits more with Sidious' master plan.
    Post edited by Chucko_marek on
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