Potential CAT AI changes …

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Bl4ckDe4th
140 posts Member
edited July 22
Hi Holotable Heroes,
We are aware of some potentially unintended interactions between Commander Ahsoka Tano and Nightsister Zombie/Geonosian Brute in which Commander Ahsoka Tano’s AI does not prioritize the preferred target. We are currently investigating the issue and are likely to take action in the future to address the outcome of battles between these units. If this is deemed necessary, there is a possibility that these changes may also impact Jedi Master Kenobi’s AI as well. We are also reviewing several other match ups with Commander Ahsoka Tano, but at this time we are unsure if these interactions pose a significant balance concern.

A balance concern? Um, for real?!
I have Rey, Kylo and SEE and all of them rely on Daka / Zombie / GBA and a faction foreign support to counter JMK + CAT. The latter of the three GLs is supposed to be great at countering Jedi and needs this to work against them. There‘s your balance problem.

Replies

  • Ultra
    7898 posts Moderator
    AI bad on defense is bad for the players
  • GLs were supposed go be “balanced“ (somewhat).
    Bad AI on defense? When was it ever good?

    Someone in my guild chat brought up the times, where new meta teams were always superior. Like Traya vs JKR or DR meta. I was never running JKR in arena and my success rate with Traya was comparable to the one I‘m having right now with SEE. The GG nute squads were pretty reliable with all the zetas and a small gear disparity, more reliable than SEE vs JMK.
    Also, general problem: Offense goes up with relics / Mastery like crazy, survivability doesn‘t. And now CAT can hit for more than a million damage in arena. How‘s that balanced?
  • Ultra
    7898 posts Moderator
    th3evo wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    AI bad on defense is bad for the players

    They have a lot of work ahead of them if they want to fix bad AI on defense.

    Good thing they are starting somewhere
  • TVF
    30068 posts Member
    edited July 22
    Bl4ckDe4th wrote: »

    Someone in my guild chat brought up the times, where new meta teams were always superior.

    Ah, the good old times.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • th3evo
    291 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    AI bad on defense is bad for the players

    They have a lot of work ahead of them if they want to fix bad AI on defense.

    Good thing they are starting somewhere

    It's a shame they won't do much else.
  • TVF
    30068 posts Member
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    CG doesn't have to accept anything just because you want it.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Ravens1113
    3586 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Maybe newer things are supposed to be better sometimes?

    Except when they’ve specifically stated that GL’s are supposed to be on par with each other. I don’t see how this interaction does anything to JMK/CAT except make it possible to beat it on defense? Even with these team comps it requires specific modding and targeting and is no guaranteed win.
  • Kyno
    30526 posts Moderator
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.
  • th3evo
    291 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?
  • Ravens1113 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Maybe newer things are supposed to be better sometimes?

    Except when they’ve specifically stated that GL’s are supposed to be on par with each other. I don’t see how this interaction does anything to JMK/CAT except make it possible to beat it on defense? Even with these team comps it requires specific modding and targeting and is no guaranteed win.

    I also mentioned that earlier, but tbh, CG‘s word isn‘t worth a dime …
    We were also supposed to need less valuable gear with the introduction of Kyrotech. Now they have reverted it back on two characters, where it seemed “a bit“ excessive
  • th3evo
    291 posts Member
    Artumas wrote: »
    I've been watching a lot of videos on JMK+CAT counters, and if you watch a couple of them, it's VERY apparent what the issue is.

    Zombie will taunt.
    Zombie will die.
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie, despite Zombie no longer taunting.
    JMK will Ult, giving the entire team taunt cirumvention, which SHOULD re-prioritize targeting for the entire team.
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie.
    This is with characters that minus taunting are very obviously prioritized by the AI up, like GAS and JKR.

    It's not even a situation like SLKR counters with Fives, they're literally prioritizing a character that can't die because it taunted once, and is very obviously erroneous rather than "exploiting move and targeting priority".

    I'm also pretty sure this applies to more than just Zombie and Brute, as I've sort of noticed it with my Rey team as well, if I have GK, as soon as he taunts once, half the rest of my team just gets straight up ignored, despite often being targeted by the first couple of attacks prior to GK taunting, and this wasn't happening anywhere in arena for the past like 6+ months in the same way.

    It's like they're unable to properly re-target after someone taunts.

    Can you link the videos? Both Anhaldt's and BitDynasty's show something else.

    Also Zombie under SLKR doesn't really lose taunt thanks to his lead.
  • Artumas wrote: »
    I've been watching a lot of videos on JMK+CAT counters, and if you watch a couple of them, it's VERY apparent what the issue is.

    Zombie will taunt.
    Zombie will die.
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie, despite Zombie no longer taunting.
    JMK will Ult, giving the entire team taunt cirumvention, which SHOULD re-prioritize targeting for the entire team.
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie.
    This is with characters that minus taunting are very obviously prioritized by the AI up, like GAS and JKR.

    It's not even a situation like SLKR counters with Fives, they're literally prioritizing a character that can't die because it taunted once, and is very obviously erroneous rather than "exploiting move and targeting priority".

    I'm also pretty sure this applies to more than just Zombie and Brute, as I've sort of noticed it with my Rey team as well, if I have GK, as soon as he taunts once, half the rest of my team just gets straight up ignored, despite often being targeted by the first couple of attacks prior to GK taunting, and this wasn't happening anywhere in arena for the past like 6+ months in the same way.

    It's like they're unable to properly re-target after someone taunts.

    If that’s the case then fine. If it’s a bug in the AI then I get it. But wouldn’t that make it a problem for ALL of the AI then? Not just JMK
  • Nikoms565
    14213 posts Member
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Artumas wrote: »
    I've been watching a lot of videos on JMK+CAT counters, and if you watch a couple of them, it's VERY apparent what the issue is.

    Zombie will taunt.
    Zombie will die.
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie, despite Zombie no longer taunting.
    JMK will Ult, giving the entire team taunt cirumvention, which SHOULD re-prioritize targeting for the entire team.
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie.
    This is with characters that minus taunting are very obviously prioritized by the AI up, like GAS and JKR.

    It's not even a situation like SLKR counters with Fives, they're literally prioritizing a character that can't die because it taunted once, and is very obviously erroneous rather than "exploiting move and targeting priority".

    I'm also pretty sure this applies to more than just Zombie and Brute, as I've sort of noticed it with my Rey team as well, if I have GK, as soon as he taunts once, half the rest of my team just gets straight up ignored, despite often being targeted by the first couple of attacks prior to GK taunting, and this wasn't happening anywhere in arena for the past like 6+ months in the same way.

    It's like they're unable to properly re-target after someone taunts.

    If that’s the case then fine. If it’s a bug in the AI then I get it. But wouldn’t that make it a problem for ALL of the AI then? Not just JMK

    I'd like to take this opportunity to play the "spaghetti code" card....
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Kyno
    30526 posts Moderator
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?

    There is nothing wrong with attacking them, but after a taunt is gone it should go back to random or other priorities they have, and that doesnt always seem to be the case. But as I said I dont have details on what they are looking at, just talking.
  • Honestly as a kenobi owner, I think the AI for kenobi and Cat on defense is too OP. It’s not balanced w the other GLs at all. But I don’t think it’s a kit issue I think it is a good defensive AI issue
  • And I don’t think making the AI more broken OP is a good idea…
  • Artumas wrote: »
    80+% of attacks will still be targeted at Zombie, despite Zombie no longer taunting.

    80% of the attacks on Zombie might be assists xD
  • Ultra
    7898 posts Moderator
    edited July 22
    fajha_jaba wrote: »
    CG is concerned about balance? CAT *is* the imbalance. They fail to recognize that they are widening the rift between top tier rosters who can max conquest rewards, and those that can't.
    They are discouraging new to moderate roster players, who are supposed to be the future of the game. Those players who theory craft and find ways to win and climb in arena.
    It's an incredible lack of foresight to listen to people cry about poor AI. If you want to get around AI, petition CG to develop real-time PVP gameplay. Better yet, play chess with someone.
    No idea how to make sure someone at CG sees this post, but I'd be curious to hear a rebuttal.

    Maxing out conquest isn't hard

    New players will face other newer players and everyone around them will be at an equal pace
  • Yeah but even top tier players fighting Cat with other GLs is ridiculous. It’s like trying to swim up a waterfall.
  • TVF
    30068 posts Member
    Are memories so short that people don't remember a time without GLs? Or is everyone here new.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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