Potential CAT AI changes …

124Next

Replies

  • There’s already a post discussing this, I’d move further discussion there
  • artusa
    152 posts Member
    XKurareX wrote: »
    The real fix would be the use of factions
    > Zombie to actually require a Nightsister as leader to revive
    > Armorer to only give Beskar Armor to Mandalorians (that buff is absolutely unbalanced and will in future anyways do more problems than anything else)
    > Wat Tambor to have full tech strength only with Separatists (or remove them on his death)

    That would truly break the game in half. You my friend have very bad ideas. You scare me.
  • Ultra
    8269 posts Moderator
    artusa wrote: »
    Does that mean zombie will get a nerf? If so, then let me retort.
    This whole thing is in response to JMK with CAT and not so much CAT in general.
    As of now the community hasn't found any non-GL friendly counters to JMK/CAT. All we have is GL counters and very weird GL counters. Rey has a counter, SEE has his, JML has his but if you nerf zombie then SLKR has nothing. The combination of JMK and CAT is too strong and unbalances the game.
    A fix would be great but if anyone should get a nerf then it should JMK.

    They said they are looking into improving the AI targeting, not nerfing toons
  • artusa
    152 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »
    artusa wrote: »
    Does that mean zombie will get a nerf? If so, then let me retort.
    This whole thing is in response to JMK with CAT and not so much CAT in general.
    As of now the community hasn't found any non-GL friendly counters to JMK/CAT. All we have is GL counters and very weird GL counters. Rey has a counter, SEE has his, JML has his but if you nerf zombie then SLKR has nothing. The combination of JMK and CAT is too strong and unbalances the game.
    A fix would be great but if anyone should get a nerf then it should JMK.

    They said they are looking into improving the AI targeting, not nerfing toons

    ok thank you, I can show this to my shard chat. People are losing their minds. This combo is so broken that everyone is scared of what might out of this.
  • TVF
    30949 posts Member
    th3evo wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    YetiYeti wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    Which breaks your JKR team, your Gas team, and is utilizing JML/JKL. What an expensive team. With expanded GAC, good luck saving that every round.

    There should be an advantage in GAC/TW

    Why? All GLs are comparable, remember?

    "comparable" /= "exactly the same"

    Also, they didn't say anything about their squads (including CAT btw).

    CAT was advertised in JMK synergy suggestions and JMK was advertised in CAT synergy suggestions. Granted, it's not the same post that mentions JMK being on par with other GLs - that was Road Ahead: April 2021 where they announced both CAT and JMK.

    Well yes, exactly.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Ultra
    8269 posts Moderator
    artusa wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    artusa wrote: »
    Does that mean zombie will get a nerf? If so, then let me retort.
    This whole thing is in response to JMK with CAT and not so much CAT in general.
    As of now the community hasn't found any non-GL friendly counters to JMK/CAT. All we have is GL counters and very weird GL counters. Rey has a counter, SEE has his, JML has his but if you nerf zombie then SLKR has nothing. The combination of JMK and CAT is too strong and unbalances the game.
    A fix would be great but if anyone should get a nerf then it should JMK.

    They said they are looking into improving the AI targeting, not nerfing toons

    ok thank you, I can show this to my shard chat. People are losing their minds. This combo is so broken that everyone is scared of what might out of this.

    Yeah, i'm not a fan of nerfs too

    Even though i have JMK + CAT, i also have to face other JMK + CATs myself in TW / GAC without my own, so its not like i don't understand some of the issues people have with having meta only counters

    Fortunately, you can take out this team using other expensive toons, if needed
  • YetiYeti
    407 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »

    What's your complaint?

    JMK needs a counter that breaks nothing and shouldn't cost you anything to beat with?????

    do you really think that's reasonable ask??

    The original complaint was that the team has no counters outside mirrors, but it does, and now the issue is that its costly to beat it?

    What's the next complaint if there is a less costly team?

    "Why do i need a team to counter JMK? I should be able to solo Vader it tbh"

    Actually, Yea kinda. JMK is supposed to be on par with the other GLs, from CG themselves, and the GLs counter each other.

    You obviously have zero experience of any high end PvP at all. You listed a counter that takes 3(!!!) Possible SLKR counters and tears them up. JKR/JKL? Spent. JML w/ (misc jedi)? Gone. Gas cheese? Gone.

    So, mastermind, tell me how you deal with two walls of 50 SLKRs, and 50 JMK/Cat crisscrossed.

    Ill wait. You're getting into the empty cupboard scenarios depending on Modding.

    You can act like that is reasonable, but it isn't. Just continue showing how inexperienced you are at strategy, though. Its stunning.
  • YetiYeti
    407 posts Member
    .... and soon the JML/GAS counter won't work at all. Lol.
  • This topic has really aged well with today's road ahead.
  • th3evo
    344 posts Member
    This topic has really aged well with today's road ahead.

    I know, right? Now we don't even know if JML will still work because they are changing 2 toons required for the JMK counter.
  • TVF
    30949 posts Member
    In a month
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    In a month

    8 days left of July. not that far away.
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    Just let them kill your JKL first and it‘s over.
    Let JMK only use his ult at 100% and after two or three ults it‘s over.
    Fight against a JMK, that goes before your JML for a change.
    Your 5th toon is also missing from that comp.

    Ultra wrote: »
    Bl4ckDe4th wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This is just wrong.

    lol

    Tell me what perfect decisions AI can make to beat my SLKR with Phoenix :wink:
    Ultra wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Pisoko wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Maybe you play for bad AI

    I invest and mod my toons to hold on defense, and poor AI means others can drop me in arena or beat my GAC teams

    Which is bad for me

    Relying on poor decisions by opponent to win means I’m bad at the game and need to git gud

    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This only makes sense if you have a meta with hard and soft counters for every team, the lack of which is exactly what is being critized in this thread. If there are no reliable counters for JMK + CAT you have a stale mirror match meta and this kills the game.

    JMK with GAS, JKL, JKR does the trick reliably

    An even an improved AI can't help that team win against it due to the mechanics of both teams

    The current AI can curbstomp my JML-Gen Sky-JKL-JKR-Hyoda still even if *I* play perfectly. Next excuse plz.

    Try adding some mods on your toons

    Man, just keep those answers, that don‘t add any value to this conversation, to yourself, okay?

    Ultra wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Bl4ckDe4th wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This is just wrong.

    lol

    Tell me what perfect decisions AI can make to beat my SLKR with Phoenix :wink:

    That's not hard/soft counter. That's an overkill.

    Funny how y'all keep changing definitions to avoid the problems with your own arguments

    You‘re the only one, who does that.

    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    frackme_21 wrote: »
    In other words, the AI is working correctly, and prioritizing the proper ability. It just so happens that there's a taunt up which she can't go around until JMK has the high ground. Stop making the kits so crazy OP and ridiculous. If you make a character that insta kills on turn 1, you have to accept she might be forced to use it on the "non optimal" toon (ie, not gas)

    They will keep attacking the previously taunting toon in soem cases without a taunt, that has been an ongoing issue with the AI. That may be part of what they are looking at, but we dont have details at this time.

    What's wrong with AI attacking a tank that doesn't have taunt? Should AI avoid JML when he isn't taunting?

    There is nothing wrong with attacking them, but after a taunt is gone it should go back to random or other priorities they have, and that doesnt always seem to be the case. But as I said I dont have details on what they are looking at, just talking.

    After watching several videos back to back and watching CAT closely I think I know what the issue might be but it's a bit different than what the dev post says.
    CAT seems to prefer to attack taunting tanks even when JMK has High Ground and it's not limited to Zombie/Brute. Unless there is a higher priority target - GAS or Thrawn - she usually goes for the taunting tank whether it's Zombie, Brute, Malak or someone else. She doesn't attack them as much when they aren't taunting.

    Thanks for the breakdown.

    I'm still not sure if it's even the same issue that the devs are talking about though. They say that CAT doesn't prioritize the preferred target. Are they talking about Daka/Brood? I don't think other teams target them either. For now it's "potential changes" so we have to wait and see.

    I am really busy IRL and have not had a chance to touch base fully on this one, just picking up here and there on multiple conversations.

    It may be based on not ignoring taunt when they can, from my quick sweep of the convo.

    If that was really the case, I wouldn’t care, if they changed that. They don‘t go after my zombie. Someone in my guild suggested to take Zombie‘s mods off, so they preferably target him, so there might be some truth to this.
  • Ultra wrote: »
    artusa wrote: »
    Does that mean zombie will get a nerf? If so, then let me retort.
    This whole thing is in response to JMK with CAT and not so much CAT in general.
    As of now the community hasn't found any non-GL friendly counters to JMK/CAT. All we have is GL counters and very weird GL counters. Rey has a counter, SEE has his, JML has his but if you nerf zombie then SLKR has nothing. The combination of JMK and CAT is too strong and unbalances the game.
    A fix would be great but if anyone should get a nerf then it should JMK.

    They said they are looking into improving the AI targeting, not nerfing toons

    This response aged well...
  • Konju
    1106 posts Member
    Ultra wrote: »
    th3evo wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Bl4ckDe4th wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    If you use hard counters or soft counters properly even a perfectly playing AI can’t win

    This is just wrong.

    lol

    Tell me what perfect decisions AI can make to beat my SLKR with Phoenix :wink:

    That's not hard/soft counter. That's an overkill.

    Funny how y'all keep changing definitions to avoid the problems with your own arguments

    Funny how you used an absolutely absurd example to “counter” the argument. Phoenix vs SLKR…absurd.

    Yes, it is possible to lose a hard or soft counter when played correctly against proper AI; there are RNG aspects involved: dodges, resists, crits or not etc.

    (Note: I didn’t weigh in on this earlier because I agree with you in principle on the other aspects of the AI issue: the real discussion not this farce with Phoenix vs SLKR)
  • XKurareX
    458 posts Member
    XKurareX wrote: »
    The real fix would be the use of factions
    > Zombie to actually require a Nightsister as leader to revive
    > Armorer to only give Beskar Armor to Mandalorians (that buff is absolutely unbalanced and will in future anyways do more problems than anything else)
    > Wat Tambor to have full tech strength only with Separatists (or remove them on his death)

    No. You cannot nuke numerous other toons because of the problem of a singular toon's interactions. You fix the singular toon, not everyone else.

    Exactly - thats why you fix those extreme buff toons. Same reason they remove ignore defense from GAS/JKL + remove Thrawn fracture for GLs
  • XKurareX
    458 posts Member
    artusa wrote: »
    XKurareX wrote: »
    The real fix would be the use of factions
    > Zombie to actually require a Nightsister as leader to revive
    > Armorer to only give Beskar Armor to Mandalorians (that buff is absolutely unbalanced and will in future anyways do more problems than anything else)
    > Wat Tambor to have full tech strength only with Separatists (or remove them on his death)

    That would truly break the game in half. You my friend have very bad ideas. You scare me.

    Beskar Armor:
    1 Stack: +50% Defense and +15% Max Health
    2 Stacks: Recover 30% Protection at the end of turn
    3 Stacks: +100% Counter chance and can't be critically hit

    Wat Tambor:
    Chiewab Medpac: Recover 5% Health and Protection at the start of every character's turn, and 5% bonus Protection if this character is a Separatist

    Baktoid Shield Generator: At the start of turn, recover 30% Protection and dispel own debuffs; Tanks Taunt while they have Protection

    BlasTech Weapon Mod: Gain 15% Turn Meter at the start of each enemy's turn; Attacks ignore defense and enemies defeated by this character can't be revived

    Those break the game together with HP pools of GLs
    Thats why they nerf Ignore defense from GAS/JKL + remove thrawn fracture for GLs
  • Ultra wrote: »
    fajha_jaba wrote: »
    CG is concerned about balance? CAT *is* the imbalance. They fail to recognize that they are widening the rift between top tier rosters who can max conquest rewards, and those that can't.
    They are discouraging new to moderate roster players, who are supposed to be the future of the game. Those players who theory craft and find ways to win and climb in arena.
    It's an incredible lack of foresight to listen to people cry about poor AI. If you want to get around AI, petition CG to develop real-time PVP gameplay. Better yet, play chess with someone.
    No idea how to make sure someone at CG sees this post, but I'd be curious to hear a rebuttal.

    Maxing out conquest isn't hard

    New players will face other newer players and everyone around them will be at an equal pace


    That's hardly a rebuttal; rebuttals are based in facts. You have simply re-stated the delusion.

    Added to this ridiculousness, you buffed JMK to the point that if you don't have CAT, you can't win. JMK lead with one unaligned force user that is also Galactic Rebublic (only CAT fits this description) nerfs Sith with defense penetration and retribution not permitted. I was climbing successfully with SEE until that update.

    I can't see how LV will be a solution, as his factions include Sith.

Sign In or Register to comment.