Developer Q&A - Grand Arena Championship Changes - 12/02

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    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Another benefit of GAC is that you don't have to do all your attacks in one sitting, you have 24 hours to attack whenever

    Speaking of this. Would be really nice of CG removed the ability to see your opponent's attacks until the round is over. Now that GAC is so important and matches will be more even, the gains from going second are too great to ignore, IMO.
    Going first almost all the time...
    xer3ocq3pfte.png

    I also go first the vast majority of the time. I also have a top 10 finish and a 1M+ lifetime score. These facts are not dispositive of the advantage of going 2nd.
    1) Dispositive is not a real word
    2) The fact that we both won so consistently while going first does indeed undermine your argument that "the gains from going second are too great to ignore"

    1, it is a word. I appear to have used it improperly <facepalm>

    2, it does not. Because you can't compare what we would have done if we always went 2nd.

    I'm not arguing the advantage to be huge. But since MM is going to make matches closer, these small advantages are more pronounced.

    I can't believe you have never been in a match where information would be of value. For example, I could face (and have) a defense where I'm 50% sure I can full clear but 99% sure I can clear all but 1. Or maybe I'm 99% sure I can clear by burning cooldowns on one team but 50/50 I can 1-shot it. In both cases, knowing my opponent's score plays a big part in my strategy.

    Finally, to all those that don't understand how to gain an edge by going 2nd, why do you oppose a simple change that you believe has no impact?
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    Another concrete example. I cleared all squad super clean. I stumbled hard on Executor and couldn't clear his Neg as a result.

    Opponent went 2nd. He did worse than me on ground. But he knows I didn't full clear. He knows he doesn't even have to try against my Executor. He doesn't stretch on my Executor and takes the easy win on my Empire fleet.

    Information was very valuable to him.
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    There’s definitely an advantage to going 2nd and knowing how your opponent performed.

    Not everyone wants or needs that advantage, but there’s no debate it exists.
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    TheDude420 wrote: »
    There’s definitely an advantage to going 2nd and knowing how your opponent performed.

    Not everyone wants or needs that advantage, but there’s no debate it exists.

    No reasonable one, anyway
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    Going second is an advantage that I have used several times in the past to get wins. But only on the weekend. That's because where I live the final hours of a GAC match are in work time, so I have no option but to fight the night before.

    It's not a huge advantage. It doesn't change what they have set. It doesn't change what I have available. But if I look at my opponents defence and see they have actually set something challenging or tricky for what I have to attack with, then knowing the exact score I need to get to is definitely an advantage. It doesn't always result in a win, and going first certainly does not always result in a loss.

    As Ragnarok_COTF says, if you do not believe it to be an advantage, then why would you care if the change to only reveal scores after attacks were finished was made?

    At the moment there is a geographical time zone/lifestyle advantage built into GAC. People who's schedule of when it is possible or convenient to battle lines up with the last couple of hours of GAC get more information to work with.

    This time zone issue was addressed in squad arena by allowing players to set a payout time that suited them. That is not possible in GAC.

    Please only reveal the results after both sides have attacked.
  • Options
    Bah, my question didn't come up.

    How does the banner per defeated enemy system work for fleets?

    Do you only get a banner for ships that actually made it on the field and got defeated? Or does winning get you points as if you killed all the reinforcements?

    What if the reinforcement are not full? Does that have an effect on the score? Would setting a fleet with only 2 reinforcements be giving my opponent 2 points for free? Or denying my opponent the opportunity to score 2 points?

    What about a 4 to 6 star capital ship? Will it be a tactic to use a 4 star capital ship because my opponent can't get as many points because I'm not allowed to put in as many ships? Or will it hurt me, because I give them 1-3 points automatically?

    I've had plenty of GAC matches that came down to 3 or less points. This is important to know.
    From CG_Jay:
    For Fleet, unsummoned reinforcements and unused reinforcement slot (due to low-star capital ships or otherwise) still grant the defeated enemy flag.

    As an example, consider the following:
    Defense Setup:
    Capital Ship
    - 6* Home One
    Starter Ships
    - Biggs X-Wing
    - HMF
    - Ghost
    Reinforcements
    - Phantom
    - Wedge X-Wing
    - <Unfilled Reinforcement>
    - <Unavailable Reinforcement>

    Scenario a)
    If the Attacker joins the battle and loses outright without destroying any defending ships, they should receive 2 banners for the missing Reinforcements. 1 Banner for each unused slot (1 for low cap ship stars slot, 1 for the unfilled slot)

    Scenario b)
    If the Attacker kills all 3 Starter Ships before any Reinforcements are deployed, the Attacker should receive the full 7 Banners for Defeated Enemies.

    (Also defeating a Capital Ship should not grant a Defeated Enemy Banner (e.g. Executor and Raddus))

    To tell you the truth scenario A doesn't seem to be handled in the best way for how ships work...
    Those banners for unused slots should be given only when the Attacker has cleared the entire fleet, not if they just join the battle and lose without defeating any ships.
    I can think of at least 2 situations:
    1)Setting a low-star Executor on defense will punish you even if it should be one of the strongest fleets and not be able to be defeated without the right composition/strategy.
    2)Setting an undermanned capital ship in order to better control the order in which the reinforcements are called

    Maybe I am missing something or my thought of process is not the best, feel free to contradict me.

    This is why I asked this question.

    Under old GAC scoring it made sense to place a non max capital on defence if you needed to use that ship. You would get full points for placing a fleet in defence no matter the number of reinforcements. But if you used a 4 star ship on offence, the max points you could earn was reduced, as you did not get points for unused slots if you didn't have the slots available.

    I noticed this when I was unlocking mal and nego. I got nego to 7* first, as the light side tb is way tougher. If I put my nego on d and attacked with my mal I was giving up 8 points before the battle even started. So I always put mal on d. Once I had mal at 7 stars I noticed that the ai would always bring in reinforcements that were not seps before my 2 sep ships waiting to come in. So even after getting 7 star mal, if mal went on d it only had the 2 sep reinforcements to improve performance.

    I used to routinely set defence fleets with some empty reinforcements slots. If someone uses the correct fleet counter, the third reinforcement is rare and the fourth hardly ever sees the field. Putting ships there was a waste. If I tripped up on a fleet and needed multiple attack fleets, the terrible ratio of cap ships to fleet ships means having 2 or 3 extra ships available really mattered.

    Now you give your opponent free points by not setting full fleets. It changes things. But knowing this we can take it into account.

    This gives me pause on "rushing" (I know, if I was rushing I'd have it already) to unlock Executor. If I get it at 4 stars it's a tough call to use in GAC. Using it to attack will cost me 8 points (is that right? Do cap ships start with 2 reinforcements slots or 1? I can't remember. Maybe it's 12 points cost for a 4*). Using it on defence will cost me 2 (or 3?) points. Using full star cap ships won't have those numbers baked in, but maybe the executor could get a hold? Well it's definitely a no-no for attacking anyway.

    To me, this really ups the urgency of needing more fleet ships in the game. Please no more cap ships without any fleet ships to use with them. Like, at least 5 fleet ships per cap ship please.
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    Question 1: Do both sides get the same amount of gls?
    Up to now I get nearly always opponents with 2 to 3 more gls. Only a gl should be able to defeat a gl goes the saying. So before I even start the other has already won.

    Question 2: Is the 15% rng also involved in GAC? The one who makes the enemy a super hero without having any skills or good team. Makes trash out of your team even your team is much stronger...
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    Ashoka41 wrote: »
    Question 1: Do both sides get the same amount of gls?
    Up to now I get nearly always opponents with 2 to 3 more gls. Only a gl should be able to defeat a gl goes the saying. So before I even start the other has already won.

    Question 2: Is the 15% rng also involved in GAC? The one who makes the enemy a super hero without having any skills or good team. Makes trash out of your team even your team is much stronger...

    1: GL focus rosters will end up sitting in a different place in the ladder to a roster with less GLs, so you are less likely to see them. That is, after the first couple of seasons when the initial gp seeding might give you those kind of matches at first.

    2: Wut?
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    Oh, also you might occasionally see a GL focus roster as a player unlocks more GLs and climbs the ladder past you.
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    As others have pointed out the last player to attack has an advantage, and they should have fixed that. It would have been simple to award the tie-breaker and some number of banners to the player who finishes their attacks first.The exact number of banners that gives 50-50 odds can be calculated from GA stats.
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    str2019 wrote: »
    As others have pointed out the last player to attack has an advantage, and they should have fixed that. It would have been simple to award the tie-breaker and some number of banners to the player who finishes their attacks first.The exact number of banners that gives 50-50 odds can be calculated from GA stats.

    First player that attacks points still gives a time zone/lifestyle advantage. What if GAC starts at 3am for someone? Or during school pickup hour?
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    str2019 wrote: »
    As others have pointed out the last player to attack has an advantage, and they should have fixed that. It would have been simple to award the tie-breaker and some number of banners to the player who finishes their attacks first.The exact number of banners that gives 50-50 odds can be calculated from GA stats.

    First player that attacks points still gives a time zone/lifestyle advantage. What if GAC starts at 3am for someone? Or during school pickup hour?

    Agreed. Worst part about SA (for me) is the time of day restriction. CG has the opportunity to fix this
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    Hide oponents results before the end of the round and the problem is solved.
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    Jos33680 wrote: »
    Hide oponents results before the end of the round and the problem is solved.

    They should not only hide the score in the GAC match but also lock the lifetime score and only update it post match. Just hiding the score in the GAC UI won't stop discord bots from tracking the profiles lifetime score and giving out the banners that someone scored on each battle.
    Legend#6873 | YouTube | swgoh.gg
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    So will there come a point where I get a 50 50 win rate and and thus 'stuck' there not able to increase my crystal income? Because at that point my opponents are going to be upgrading at a similar, if not faster rate (if they're spending money). So then I'm just stuck unable to climb the ladder any further?

    No, you have the ability to make better decisions than them. That matters a lot.
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    Ultra wrote: »
    Previously, we've had Squad Arena and Grand Arena,

    To me, it feels like Squad Arena is useless to participate in, so as far as time commitment goes, you have ~30+ minutes back in your day

    Seems like you have gained time, rather than losing it, unless you never played GAC before this change, then you are still saving more time imo since setting defenses doesn't take too long, plus you can auto set in rounds 2/3 or use third party tools to autoset your defense comps in every round

    So defense phases are giving you + ~20 mins of your day back, and on off-weeks you are saving more time

    So I really disagree with the time commitment being increased now

    You're assuming everyone has kept playing both squad arena and GAC, which may not be a correct assumption. As I mentioned, I stopped playing GAC some time ago because the rewards weren't worth the time commitment. Now that I've been 'incentivized' to play GAC again ... and they've since added Conquest ... the additional time commitment for someone like myself with be significant ... and this is true for a number of folks in my guild/alliance (just think about how many people stopped playing TW until the new incentives).

    So, you're correct that individuals that need to get back into GAC are saving 30-min by not needing Squad Arena, but they will also be gaining a more significant time commitment to now come back and focus on GAC.

    As I've said before, I like these changes ... and for those that have been playing Squad Arena and GAC, I will agree with you (and others) that this is a net benefit ... however, you should realize that there are a reasonable number of players that weren't playing GAC that will want to come back to get their crystal income, which will be a significant, additional time sink.

    Just a different perspective.
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    Starslayer wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Previously, we've had Squad Arena and Grand Arena,

    To me, it feels like Squad Arena is useless to participate in, so as far as time commitment goes, you have ~30+ minutes back in your day

    Seems like you have gained time, rather than losing it, unless you never played GAC before this change, then you are still saving more time imo since setting defenses doesn't take too long, plus you can auto set in rounds 2/3 or use third party tools to autoset your defense comps in every round

    So defense phases are giving you + ~20 mins of your day back, and on off-weeks you are saving more time

    So I really disagree with the time commitment being increased now

    Seconded, but for the sake of debate and the joy of nitpicking: I doubt people will entirely give up SA, because rewards, even if they’re faaaaaar smaller. So among players fully invested in the game, time commitment will be more or less the same. Probably a little less, because competition will be less fierce. However, the QoL improvement is huge, because if you want to spend less time in the game repeating the same boring battle (yes SA, i’m talking about you), you can do it without losing the best reward in the game.

    Crystals are the only reason all players , except Samuel , do squad arena. When the switch over is made, there will be like 3000 players completely unaware of what is going on and only upon seeing weird crystal math will they proceed to start paying attention. 2 months though after that, only Samuel will be left in squad arena, #1 on all shards. He is a really weird guy.
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    Seeing what your opponent has done is part of the strategy and enjoyment of GAC. I almost always go first (GAC ends during work for me too), but it’s still fun to check to see what has been done. I’d be sad if they didn’t let us see real time updates.
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    New questions:
    If you don't log in on a day, do you get the daily crystals from that day? Will they pile up in your inbox?

    How long will crystal rewards persist in your inbox? Is it different for daily, event and season rewards?
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
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    New questions:
    If you don't log in on a day, do you get the daily crystals from that day? Will they pile up in your inbox?

    How long will crystal rewards persist in your inbox? Is it different for daily, event and season rewards?

    Yes, they will be delivered similar to current PO.
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    Sorry if this has been answered before, but I don't recall seeing it.

    When does our gp actually lock into the new League / Division? On Dec 8th when crystals are removed from Squad Arena and shifted to the new format, or on Dec 13 when the new season starts?

    I am leaning to the 8th since that will determine our daily crystals in the interim, and not sure if we can "move up" in the meantime.
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    How many questions were actually answered here? Seemed more like a Q & Mores Q's than anything.
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    twstdbydsn wrote: »
    How many questions were actually answered here? Seemed more like a Q & Mores Q's than anything.

    Go to page 1
    Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
  • Ultra
    11568 posts Moderator
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    twstdbydsn wrote: »
    How many questions were actually answered here? Seemed more like a Q & Mores Q's than anything.

    Q&A is over but that's not stopping from people asking more Qs
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    Let's not pretend they answered many questions, though.
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    Let's not pretend they answered many questions, though.

    They literally answered the same question multiple times. Hard to get to a lot of questions wasting time answering the same one repeatedly
  • TVF
    36738 posts Member
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    Ultra wrote: »
    twstdbydsn wrote: »
    How many questions were actually answered here? Seemed more like a Q & Mores Q's than anything.

    Q&A is over but that's not stopping from people asking more Qs

    Should have minded our Ps
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
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    About hiding scores with regard to the going first/second advantage:

    They see no statistical advantage in the data around this situation. They will keep an eye on things, but have no plans on making changes to this.
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    Ultra wrote: »
    twstdbydsn wrote: »
    How many questions were actually answered here? Seemed more like a Q & Mores Q's than anything.

    Q&A is over but that's not stopping from people asking more Qs

    Yeah, since the site brings me to the last comment I viewed, I never went back to page 1 to see the actual questions that were answered. Thanks!
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    Sorry if this has been answered before, but I don't recall seeing it.

    When does our gp actually lock into the new League / Division? On Dec 8th when crystals are removed from Squad Arena and shifted to the new format, or on Dec 13 when the new season starts?

    I am leaning to the 8th since that will determine our daily crystals in the interim, and not sure if we can "move up" in the meantime.

    Any update on this one? Pretty critical if we lock in tomorrow versus in 5 days, especially if we are on the cusp of another League cutoff....
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