Doubling relic gear requirement madness

Replies

  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lots of things sound good to the players which are unreasonable to expect.

    What is unreasonable? Taking your current stash value and giving you half of what it's worth in mats before reducing it's value is unreasonable? Having adequate in game warnings as well as a definite date for the update is unreasonable? No it's only unreasonable when you have the lowest kinds of expectations from a company to act in a way that benefits everyone instead of just themselves

    Expecting having double the stuff which is not restrained to equivalent scavenger conversion is unreasonable. It's double the stuff everywhere else. This is unrelated to the issue as well. It would effect each player differently that's beyond the intent of this change.

    But when did I say they should expect to double their stuff, I proposed two solutions which one is unreasonable?

    I already explained how you misread the comment.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Tialishoma241
    75 posts Member
    edited January 2023
    Players are often referred to as "free to play". We all know this isn't true. We just pay with collection of online data, all apps have Facebook code in them to do this. Those of us that have saved up the stash over the years, they've had years of making money off us whilst doing it. To effectively screw over the older player, giving newer ones an effective boost is just really poor.
  • It isn't though. You require double of specific things, or at least the same things. You don't get that. You get double random stuff. I'm rapidly running out now
    Everything that had its exchange rate halved had its drop rate doubled.

    Can you state an example of what has not been doubled?

    Maybe somebody already pointed this out, (haven’t read past your comment) but they did not double challenge rewards. That was a big source of relic material for me prior to the change. Ik CG claims they addressed challenge rewards, but that was prior to halving gear value with the scavenger. Since they made all gear half value, and did NOT double all gear sources (challenge rewards), it is definitely worse getting relic mats from scavenger.
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    It isn't though. You require double of specific things, or at least the same things. You don't get that. You get double random stuff. I'm rapidly running out now
    Everything that had its exchange rate halved had its drop rate doubled.

    Can you state an example of what has not been doubled?

    Maybe somebody already pointed this out

    Yes
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    Lots of things sound good to the players which are unreasonable to expect.
    It wasn't an expectation, just a possible solution. Hardly an unreasonable one either, since bizarre hypotheticals (i.e. players sitting on thousands of Core Gear pieces) don't hold a lot of weight.
  • It seems somewhat interesting that people who do regularly post on the forums complain about something which was pretty clearly communicated on the forums. With plenty of notice given too.

    I didn’t read these forums myself until about a year ago. Then I noticed that multiple updates in-game stated that for more information I should check posts in the forums. I did so, and lo and behold there was indeed a bounty of additional information. If you want to know what’s going on in the game, read the forums. CG say that regularly. They give enough in game, and tell us where to find the rest. It’s not their fault if people are too lazy to go and find the information, it’s not exactly hidden.
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    Screerider wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lots of things sound good to the players which are unreasonable to expect.
    It wasn't an expectation, just a possible solution. Hardly an unreasonable one either, since bizarre hypotheticals (i.e. players sitting on thousands of Core Gear pieces) don't hold a lot of weight.

    I am sitting on over 5,000 carbs, I don't think they want me to have 10,000.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    I am sitting on over 5,000 carbs, I don't think they want me to have 10,000.
    How many do you think they want you to have?

  • TVF wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lots of things sound good to the players which are unreasonable to expect.
    It wasn't an expectation, just a possible solution. Hardly an unreasonable one either, since bizarre hypotheticals (i.e. players sitting on thousands of Core Gear pieces) don't hold a lot of weight.

    I am sitting on over 5,000 carbs, I don't think they want me to have 10,000.

    Do you even need 10k more? I usually try to sit between 1k and 2k, which burns down to zero when GL reqs are finished, and I think I need about 4k more for every toon currently in game (HU memory is fuzzy)
  • And this is why there is such disconnect between players. I have no idea if the change to gear has such a significant impact.

    However, when people have nil and people have 5000 of gear then those opposites will likely never agree. Its the equivalent of och just put Hounds Tooth in....

    Personally for me, forums should go way and above what should be provided in game, problem is 3 sentences of updates in game doesnt quite cut it unless of course its trying to sell....and players who read forums shouldnt complain that others dont want to, the game has to give every single decision delivered in game.

    Thing is, those external sources now earn from outwith the ingame communications....hotutils show how easy the devs could do it...
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    Screerider wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    I am sitting on over 5,000 carbs, I don't think they want me to have 10,000.
    How many do you think they want you to have?

    Less?
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lots of things sound good to the players which are unreasonable to expect.
    It wasn't an expectation, just a possible solution. Hardly an unreasonable one either, since bizarre hypotheticals (i.e. players sitting on thousands of Core Gear pieces) don't hold a lot of weight.

    I am sitting on over 5,000 carbs, I don't think they want me to have 10,000.

    Do you even need 10k more? I usually try to sit between 1k and 2k, which burns down to zero when GL reqs are finished, and I think I need about 4k more for every toon currently in game (HU memory is fuzzy)

    I didn't say I need 10k more, but if I were to do another GL with the same req's as Jabba, another cap ship with the same req's as Prof, and Aphra req's, it would take over 5k.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Didn't mean to imply you did say so. Just wondering out loud
  • ShaggyB
    2390 posts Member
    edited January 2023
    el_mago wrote: »
    el_mago wrote: »
    nfidel2k wrote: »
    In a guild of 50 people, I think I may be the only one that regularly checks the forums. Two or three others occasionally read the forums but usually only for big updates. Whenever something this impactful comes along, I always pass the information along for the people in my guild that don't read the forums. I also post a link to important CG Dev posts in a discord channel on our server devoted to CG Dev posts. I also give a a few bullet points in guild chat for the folks that aren't on discord and tell people to check the forums if it's something this serious. I do this because I care about whether my guild mates have all the information they need to adapt their farming strategies to fit their goals. That's just good for my guild mates, and good for my guild in general.

    I'm not saying that everyone should be like me - that would surely leave us worse off. But I would be shocked if anyone that plays this game with any kind of serious intent on doing well were in a guild that didn't put this information out to it's players or at the very least, tell them to check the forums.

    We had at least a month of advanced notice about this. If you're in a guild where no one bothered to even mention this and it's that important to you - then maybe the priorities of your guild leadership don't align with your own.

    I think it would have been nice for CG to send out an in-game notification about this - but that would be inconsistent with their previous behavior. They OFTEN do things without sending an in-game notice to inform the players. Their pattern to date has been to make the lions share of the information they provide about the game available on the forums by way of posts from one of the community managers. That's how it's always been. Expecting them to suddenly change an established pattern of behavior doesn't seem logical to me. Just to drive the point home, I think they should have sent an in-game notice - but I would absolutely 100% not expect them to and I can't fathom why anyone else would expect that. It's just not how they operate - it's never been how they operate.

    For anyone that got burned by this, let it be a lesson learned - if you read nothing else on these forums, check once a week or so to see if there are in dev posts. It takes seconds to do so and apparently could save you "thousands of dollars" worth of gear. CG is not culpable here - we had WEEKS of advanced notice. They could have done more, yes - but they did as much as they've ever done in the past.
    CG robbed people of thousands of dollars worth of farming and there is no way around it or sugar coating it

    This is slanderous and absolutely false. No one was robbed of anything. No one took anything from anyone. CG told us they were going to make a change weeks in advance and then they made exactly the change that they outlined. Everyone had ample opportunity to insulate themselves from any and all losses associated with the change - which is precisely WHY we got so much notice. They hid nothing, lied about nothing, and took nothing from anyone. It's unfortunate that some people didn't know about it - that is in no way CGs fault - get into a more attentive guild, or start checking the forums regularly and become the "forum scout" for your own guild to avoid this kind of thing in the future.

    "CG told us", they told YOU, the forum user not everyone. How can you say:" I'm the only one in a guild of 50 people who reads the forums" and then say that?

    Yes they robbed us of mats this isn't just standard inflation this is literally cutting our value in half over night. If the government decided to half the value of your dollars over night while keeping the costs of everything the same, you've been robbed and there is not way around it

    A. That’s not how the “value of your dollars” and the “costs of everything” work, so it’s not a good working analogy.

    B. Ignoring the point above, that is exactly how it works. The government doesn’t mail you a letter saying “Hey, we’re about to xyz…”. No, they post it publicly as required by law, and you hear about it by checking the public information, hearing about it from a friend, or reading it in the news. It’s not robbery, shady tactics or anything nefarious. One line of communication, so there are no miscommuncations or mixed signals. If you choose to ignore that line of communication, for whatever reason, intentional or not, it’s on you - not the government.

    C. Relics have been around for ~3.5 years. Whatever you might have actually saved up, it’s not 3.5 years worth or you’re playing the game wrong. Stop being dramatic.

    Relics have been in the game for 3.5 years but the gear we've been stockpiling has been in the game a lot longer than that. There is no way around this my man. Not giving an in game warning, plus the exact date of the update and all the details and instead relying on forum posts and YouTubers to spread the word is absurd. Also again, not everyone speaks English, plus there are kids who are allowed to only play the game but can't use in game chat or not allowed in the forums etc. When you much a decision that has this much impact you should bare the responsibility of taking ALL factors into consideration and making sure you do the best job you can at informing EVERYONE not just those who read the forums. And even if you follow YouTubers it doesn't mean you watch every single video they post all the time, it's called being "busy" and having a life my dude. It's a robbery of tremendous value and they ought to do something about it, personally I think they should restore the scrap value of gear, it shouldn't be hard to relic characters to 1-4 anyways. Relic 9 is required for TB, as well as exec/profundity. Relic 8 is required for GLs. It's about **** time relic 3-4 became easier to get

    They JUST made it a little easier to get to G12. I hope you're used to disappointment if you have even a shred of hope that they are gonna make R3 - R4 any easier.

    You can keep beating your head against the wall of this "it wasn't fair" nonsense. it won't get you anywhere. nobody's really disagreeing with you that they SHOULD have done more, we're just not agreeing with you that they HAD to do more.

    Life's lesson learned....just be glad you learned it in a video game and not in real life. Get over it, the victim mentality is getting old.

    "Victim mentality"? Really? More like holding a business accountable to their decisions. Or how about setting some standards with regards to what is acceptable? You know victims do exist and have every right to complain about it. It says more about you when you're not willing to acknowledge someone's been the victim and instead make excuses for the victimizer.

    You're right when it comes to CG you should hold a small basket and expect everything from them. But can we at least call them out when they step out of line?

    The problem with your flawed argument is that you seem to think that they owe you anything. They are operating how they've always operated. You either adapt (come to the forums, read the discord) or die (complain about being the vicitm, blaming others for your lack of awareness).

    They are doing the same as they've always done, good or bad. The ball is in YOUR court.

    You know what they call it when you keep trying something and expect a different result, right? Insanity.

    Again, deal with it. You learned a valuable lesson. Keep that in your pocket and help others to not make the same mistake. Anything else is falling on deaf ears and you will get no sympathy.

    Id disagree with that too.

    They always say they 'respect the players investment' and make decisions based on that.

    Halfing the value of current mats without an in game warning doesnt 'respect the players investment' in their current farmed or purchased gear.

    CG was wrong here. They didnt give the notice to the full player base.


    Now what i can agree on is that CG will duck the old head in the sand and not do anything to balance it after the fact and a person should learn the lesson to look at the forums or get in guilds that do read so youll know.... or be ok with it / as ok as one can be.
  • TVF wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lots of things sound good to the players which are unreasonable to expect.
    It wasn't an expectation, just a possible solution. Hardly an unreasonable one either, since bizarre hypotheticals (i.e. players sitting on thousands of Core Gear pieces) don't hold a lot of weight.

    I am sitting on over 5,000 carbs, I don't think they want me to have 10,000.

    It all comes off the back end. Even if they doubled your gear and you ended up with "too much" gear. Eventually if you take things to their logical conclusion suppose that you end up maxing out your entire account with gear and all you have left is relics, your carbantis are just fuel for relics at the end of the day. Ever since the relic system was implemented gear is scrap and scrap is gear, these two things are interchangeable in the grand scheme of things.... And since relics come after applying all gear pieces to a character, how much gear you have takes a backseat. By being the last step to the gearing process, relics are the end goal for every account.

    Essentially it would be as though CG loans you ahead of time gear for scrap that you'll have to convert at some point at reduced rate thus paying them back for that gear.

    So in reality even if they doubled everyone's gear stash it would basically make little to no difference in the grand scheme of things, I guess it would only make a difference for time sensitive events which is why they don't wanna do it.

    CG counts on the fact that it will take so long for people to get every single character to relics (g13) that this loan will technically never be repaid unless you're a whale or something. Most people will take far too many years to get to that point. It would be like loaning you something you can't afford and spreading the payments over too much time for them to get paid back at a satisfactory time frame
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Lots of things sound good to the players which are unreasonable to expect.
    It wasn't an expectation, just a possible solution. Hardly an unreasonable one either, since bizarre hypotheticals (i.e. players sitting on thousands of Core Gear pieces) don't hold a lot of weight.

    I am sitting on over 5,000 carbs, I don't think they want me to have 10,000.

    It all comes off the back end. Even if they doubled your gear and you ended up with "too much" gear. Eventually if you take things to their logical conclusion suppose that you end up maxing out your entire account with gear and all you have left is relics, your carbantis are just fuel for relics at the end of the day. Ever since the relic system was implemented gear is scrap and scrap is gear, these two things are interchangeable in the grand scheme of things.... And since relics come after applying all gear pieces to a character, how much gear you have takes a backseat. By being the last step to the gearing process, relics are the end goal for every account.

    Essentially it would be as though CG loans you ahead of time gear for scrap that you'll have to convert at some point at reduced rate thus paying them back for that gear.

    So in reality even if they doubled everyone's gear stash it would basically make little to no difference in the grand scheme of things, I guess it would only make a difference for time sensitive events which is why they don't wanna do it.

    CG counts on the fact that it will take so long for people to get every single character to relics (g13) that this loan will technically never be repaid unless you're a whale or something. Most people will take far too many years to get to that point. It would be like loaning you something you can't afford and spreading the payments over too much time for them to get paid back at a satisfactory time frame

    This is pretty easy to dismantle:
    - His 5k stash gets doubled, your 50 stash gets doubled, other persons 800 stash doubled. Zero probability to do justice. Stash is not how far an account is, stashing crazy amounts isn't a skill and it's not even applicable to any players style either. One time you have a good stash, other time you don't. This development happened at an arbitrary time.
    - Cg has no intention deleting old bottlenecks, just easing them. A newbie account has a very long way to go even in current state. They are not relic count chaser, neither are their opponents half relic rosters.
  • RTS
    682 posts Member
    Sceptog wrote: »
    The drop was ~~doubled, so should be net neutral (more or less)

    And what about the hundreds of thousands of pieces we all had saved up over YEARS that instantly lost half it's value? Even with the double drops it will be years to get enough to match what we already had. And don't say that "you should have already converted" because hundreds of thousands of players have no access to forums or could have intuitively known this was about to happen


    Should have scrapped it ahead of time I guess?

    Like the rest of us?
  • TVF
    36524 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    stashing crazy amounts isn't a skill .

    Stashing crazy amounts while still being competitive in all game modes is absolutely a skill.

    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • I think his point was that stashes can fluctuate based on circumstance. I usually have between 1k and 2k carbs. But upon finishing Jabba reqs, I had less than 50. And I'm already back up over 1k. So despite me being a generally good hoarder, doubling the stash at a bad time for me would make me a sad panda. Again, I think this was his point as another reason why doubling stashes would be a bad idea.

    I wasn't in favor of stashes doubling. But given the advanced notice, if they were getting doubled, I would have just postponed all my gearing for a month until stashes were doubled. Of course, CG doesn't want us doing that either.
  • I think his point was that stashes can fluctuate based on circumstance. I usually have between 1k and 2k carbs. But upon finishing Jabba reqs, I had less than 50. And I'm already back up over 1k. So despite me being a generally good hoarder, doubling the stash at a bad time for me would make me a sad panda. Again, I think this was his point as another reason why doubling stashes would be a bad idea.

    I wasn't in favor of stashes doubling. But given the advanced notice, if they were getting doubled, I would have just postponed all my gearing for a month until stashes were doubled. Of course, CG doesn't want us doing that either.

    I think that's a fair point and I agree - but I don't think TVF was responding out of context, nor did his comment deserve the response that it got. I think at least some of us can see why doubling everyones stash would be a bad idea.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    I think his point was that stashes can fluctuate based on circumstance. I usually have between 1k and 2k carbs. But upon finishing Jabba reqs, I had less than 50. And I'm already back up over 1k. So despite me being a generally good hoarder, doubling the stash at a bad time for me would make me a sad panda. Again, I think this was his point as another reason why doubling stashes would be a bad idea.

    I wasn't in favor of stashes doubling. But given the advanced notice, if they were getting doubled, I would have just postponed all my gearing for a month until stashes were doubled. Of course, CG doesn't want us doing that either.

    I think that's a fair point and I agree - but I don't think TVF was responding out of context, nor did his comment deserve the response that it got. I think at least some of us can see why doubling everyones stash would be a bad idea.

    It was out of context in that my post had nothing to do with whether stashing is a skill or not. This is evident for anyone who read the rest of it and what it was a respond to. It was just an example how doubling would cause severe gaps in between players and isn't a better alternative to what already happened.
  • Sorry for double post. But I just realized that even if they doubled the stashes, without an in-game notification, people would still get upset. Because they might have just dumped a stash on GL reqs right before it happened :D

    Maybe someone already made this point, sorry if I'm repeating. But yeah, I think the only thing I wish CG had done differently here is sent an in-game message that there were major changes coming and to check the forums for details. But I also still think anyone who wants to take this game seriously needs to at least follow dev announcements on the forums, for realz
  • TVF wrote: »
    Screerider wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    I am sitting on over 5,000 carbs, I don't think they want me to have 10,000.
    How many do you think they want you to have?

    Less?
    But the Gear Economy changes gave of more Core Gear.

  • ShaggyB
    2390 posts Member
    RTS wrote: »
    Sceptog wrote: »
    The drop was ~~doubled, so should be net neutral (more or less)

    And what about the hundreds of thousands of pieces we all had saved up over YEARS that instantly lost half it's value? Even with the double drops it will be years to get enough to match what we already had. And don't say that "you should have already converted" because hundreds of thousands of players have no access to forums or could have intuitively known this was about to happen


    Should have scrapped it ahead of time I guess?

    Like the rest of us?

    Did you or did you decide to keep your gear and start working on lower gear characters in your roster?
  • ShaggyB
    2390 posts Member
    edited January 2023
    But yeah, I think the only thing I wish CG had done differently here is sent an in-game message that there were major changes coming and to check the forums for details. But I also still think anyone who wants to take this game seriously needs to at least follow dev announcements on the forums, for realz

    This times 100.

    This is the mistake CG made.

    They know the forums doesnt represent the entire playerbase.... yet no in game announcement warning you that your gear would lose half its trade in value at the scavenger before hand....

    Thats a big miss and CG should be taking to task on that.

    Doubling the gear in your inventory isnt gonna happen and we all know its not a reasonable fix.

    Making economy changes without an in game heads up should never happen. Even if its just a brief "go to the forums for more detail on scavanger trade in value changes going live in the next update"... it has to be given in game or not done till it is announced in game with some prep time.
    Post edited by ShaggyB on
  • ShaggyB
    2390 posts Member
    ShaggyB wrote: »
    But yeah, I think the only thing I wish CG had done differently here is sent an in-game message that there were major changes coming and to check the forums for details. But I also still think anyone who wants to take this game seriously needs to at least follow dev announcements on the forums, for realz

    This times 100.

    This is the mistake CG made.

    They know the forums doesnt represent the entire playerbase.... yet no in game announcement warning you that your gear would lose half its trade in value at the scavenger before hand....

    Thats a big miss and CG should be taking to task on that.

    Doubling the gear in your inventory isnt gonna happen and we all know its not a reasonable fix.

    Making economy changes without an in game heads up should never happen. Even if its just a brief "go to the forums for more detail on scavanger trade in value changes going live in the next update"... it has to be given in game or not done till it is announced in game with some prep time.

    Thats why you see people saying they robbed them or stole the value of something.

    It may be an extreme take on what they did, but not letting everyone know something negative to their current investment was going to happen ahead of time in a way that ensures as many players as possible had thr chance to know first hand without help from youtube or guild mates, was going to get that kind of response.

    Do better CG.

    You should know better and im pretty sure it was mentioned to you in response to the original post on the change. Not sure why you didnt send in game notification. You had time and warning.
  • Perhaps doubling everything but Core Gear would have been a good compromise.
  • ShaggyB
    2390 posts Member
    Screerider wrote: »
    Perhaps doubling everything but Core Gear would have been a good compromise.

    No. The issue is the lack of announcement.

    The double thing wont resolve the issue. Those who didnt hear and then spent whatever gear they would have doubled will be upset that they didnt get the memo and the extra gear.

    Perhaps just never reduce the value of the player's investment..... and if you are going to do it, you better let the players know in game.
  • Screerider wrote: »
    Perhaps doubling everything but Core Gear would have been a good compromise.
    Not cutting down relic scrap price or doubling challenges is only solution.
    With removing tier 1-3 from relic level 7+ it shouldn’t affect high tiers to much.
    But they decided to do it without doubling challenges which was the main source of relic scrap(low gear tiers that wasn’t touched in phase 1).

    And in-game communication is needed. And also fair message “Your current stock of gear will be cut down on half for relic scrap”, because CG itself didn’t point at all on current stock cutting directly.
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